Time Frame for Beginning Self Defense in PM

[mantis108]

This is an interesting question:

<<<I will make this question a little more clear. Do any of you have a time line for preparing a new student to defend themselves using the mantis applications. I have read a lot about the "experienced mantis fighter". I know it differs from person to person, but does that take 2, 3 or 4 years? Would a new mantis student be better off to study boxing or Muay Thai along with mantis untill they become an experienced fighter?>>>

Please bear in mind my usual caveats applied and I only speak for myself.

I believe in efficiency in learn self defense. I also believe Mantis applications can be learn and/or use along side boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Shuai Chiao, BJJ, etc... The first class is served as a introduction to my perspective on fighting with our material.

If a novice come to me, here's what I would show him/her:

First hour

warm up and stretchings (technique based)
breakfalls and rolling (ground maneouvers/low impact & endurance)
Basic ground drills and counters solo and partnered - the mount & rear mount (serves as strength/endurance exercises)

The above is about concept. So it's more of a positional play than going for the end game.

first half of the Second hour

8 basic stances (introduction)
First section of CCK TCPM Ba Da Ma Bu (drilling the form)
basic takedown drill (just 1)
Hook grab pluck drill (partnered)
combining hook grab piuck drill with the first section of BDMB

the first section of BDMB is basically Cai San Shou, standing arm bar and the double palm techniques. Next we work on combining it with HGP. There are roughly 10 techniques of basic striking and Chin Na (just 1) at this point.

last half of the second hour

Putting the basic mantis techs with the ground game and drill them. Student has to try to use the hook grab pluck and the first section 8 stances striking techniques during the stand up. He/she also has to look for opening to go for a basic takedown or the standing arm bar from there. If a takedown is successful, student has to work to obtain high mount or rear mount. If not, the drill continues. If time permits, the student can work on either going to the ground or stay stand up.

Last 10 mins

Cool down
first road of 18 lohan. Introduction of the self defense technique of the first road (not drilling but introduce the exercise at this point)

Our Self defense material mainly came from the Sau Fa which we will be focusing on the first 12 starting with the second class. We keep building on those in class. How much the material can be absorb depends on the student(s). So the time frame to be proficient varies from person to person. 6 to 9 months would be a good foundation building phase IMHO. Then the forms training begins. Final note, I am not a form person so I don't teach a lot of forms.

Mantis108

[sayloc]

108

Thanks for taking the time for your detailed descriptin. It sounds like a good sytem of getting them prepared.

[count]

mantis108,

The thing about mantis classes in our school that always made it appealing to me is you get contact work with a partner from day one. My teacher always makes the distinction between a direct system like mantis and a more hidden one like tai chi, that mantis is useable from day one.

We start beginners (after warm ups and 10 basic stances) with the 8 basics. 4 hands, go, lo, tsai, kua, and 4 steps, hopping, dodging, turning, shuffling. With the hands we first show singles, than doubles, than pair off with partners to get a feel against a punch. Over the next 4 to 8 classes, new student are given more methods of training basics. Punches, kicks/sweeps, blocks and footwork until you drop. Within 2 months students will start to learn forms and more complex applications like traps and throws and combinations.

I think a mantis student should be able to hold their own against boxers or kickers with the same time frame for training, and within 6 months have an advantage of knowing some good throws and takedowns. As far as ground work, I guess it's never to early to get a student used to going there, but as far as self defense, IMO, hands/locking, kicks/sweeping should come first. Clearly, boxing or muay thai wouldn't give any more advantage on the ground at first if ever.

[Oso]

If I didn't know you better, I'd think this was a troll... :D ;)

ok, devil's advocate here:

Do you need the 8 or 10 basic stances for self defense?




I just went over this sort of thing in class last week.

Self Defense is not learning applications or defenses against the ubiquitous throat grab or cross wrist grab.

Self Defense is learning a certain frame of mind that keeps you from getting in situations where you need to fight.

All else is fighting.


How quickly can you learn to fight with PM is the question is it not?

[mantis108]

Hi Sayloc,

Glad you enjoyed the post. :)

Hi Count,

Thank you very much for the input. I would love to come training alongside with your group.

While I would agreed that there is no particular reason Mantis stylists could not hold their own against other MMA components (ie boxing, MT, BJJ, etc..), there is IMHO a serious adjustment needed to fortify at least for my own program in order for students to seriously thinking taking upon those components. Basically, what I am saying is that I am cautiously optimistic about my approach. It's a working progress and there are a lot to iron out.

Hi Oso,

Well, may be I am, lol.... :D ;) Don't you think that trolls are more challenging and colorful? BTW, I'd sent ninjas to people who know my secret stuffs like Kevin for example. lol.. so keep the secret or my ninjas would be after you. ;) :D

Seriously, I think you have touched on a great topic. I do agreed with your evaluation of self defense and fighting. I generally give that talk to people who come to me. I also would give the talk about learn and training Kung Fu piror to potential students joining the class. To me it is you train and then you'd hopefully learn. A lot of people have the idea of learning which is more a mental thing then really a full personal experience. Anyway, here's a thought to share with you.

I believe that generally idea of self defense in Kung Fu is incoperated in the "form" (not the long 100 moves pattern). In mantis, we start working on that even with the 8 stances in which each stance has its own "application". Then we have single moves (sau Fa/shou fa) or numerous postures. I believe that those are Mishou or closely related to Mishou. BTW, these numerous postures are "forms" in itself.

For example:

In our first section of Shou fa, the third move is called "Tui Shan Dao Hai" (push the mountain turn the ocean). It basically is a move that both hands pushing to the side as you step into a hiking stance. This is IMHO the same move as "Mo Pan Da Zhong Tan". The major, although quite minor, difference is that TSDH uses open palms to push (slap and throw) while MPDZT uses both fist to hit (smack and/or throw). GM Chiu taught this move as self defense by having your partner standing behind you and grab your shoulder. You have a split second to determine whether to go with the move or should you use the variation depending how your partner's grab is situated. Clearly, this is reactive; thus, this is self defense oriented. However, all I need to do to make this move proactive (fighting) is to use yang jeung and transit into MPDZT (it is TSDH if it's open palm side push). The rest of the move is pretty much the same. As you can see the "form" contains both reactive and proactive aspects.

We can further drill this by using the simple hook grab pluck and/or feng shou drill. Whenever we punch to the partner's face, he can slip the punch and comes behind us. He then can use the grab on the shoulder (for practice purpose). We have to act accordingly and appropiately. Alternately, we have take the initiative drill the hook grab pluck+feng shou drill to use yang jeung and MPDZT. This way of drilling is developed with the help of a few good friends, such as Kevin, who have been openly sharing their knowledge with me.

Being grab by the shoulder from behind is common on the street. For instance, you try to help a friend, who got knock down, to get up and some idiot grab your shoulder from behind so that he can turn you and punch you in the face. You now have the option to go through with the move. Being slip and grab from behind is also common in MMA situations even if you are aggressive. Frankly, both situations are being addressed with the same move. That's IMHO is where the strength of Tanglang as a martial arts come in, my friend. It is up to the teacher to point the way and prepares the students.

Anyway, just some thoughts to share with you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

A - Ninjas Suck

B - very busy now but will respond more later

C - Once you hit the Canadian border, how many hours is it to Yellowknife?

C1 - Just guessing but late December is probably a baaaaad time to visit that part of the planet????

just thinking cuz I get like two weeks off at that time of the year

we could compare notes because I think we are in the same place as far as trying to figure out some things.

[Oso]

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&un=m&2tabval=address&cl=EN&ct=NA&1tabval=address&1y=US&1a=&1c=Asheville&1s=NC&1z=28806&1ah=&2y=US&2a=&2c=Yellowknife&2s=NT&2z=&2ah=&idx=0&id=41058ac5-0016f-06f0c-400c2529&aid=41058ac5-00170-06f0c-400c2529

daaaaaaammmmmmm, that's a long way.

[mantis108]

Yup, that sounds about right. I think 3 - 4 days of driving is a bit rush already. I am in the Artic circle. :( Christmas time isn't too bad up here (-15 to -20 C ). Mid January is pretty horrible sometime ( -35 C w/ windchill - 50 ish easily). Try to start an almost frozen car engine block while sitting on frozen rock hard car seat, you will wonder why the he!! there aren't laws to prohibit people to live up here. lol ;) Tainan came to visit in Feb, it was about (- 20 something w/ windchill -30+ ) but he was okay walking a few blocks from his motel to my store. So...
I guess Kung Fu keeps you warm, lol. :D ;)

You will always be welcome uphere, my friend. This goes to everyone who wishes to visits and compare notes and exchange info. in person as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

I'm originally from ohio and it gets cold but that is just straight up nuts. Of coarse I live in Phoenix now and it's on average 110-115 degrees during the summer so I guess I'm just on the opposite side of the spectrum. :) I guess we're all a little nuts in some respects. :)

[Oso]

ok, need a couple of definitions first

yang jeung

would that be yang jing? as in hard energy? just making a guess as my chinese is basically non existant.

and

feng shou

something fist/hand?



Being grab by the shoulder from behind is common on the street.

gonna have to slightly disagree here. I believe this to be a common fallacy. I would have to say that this is actaully going to be low on the list. Not out of question by any means but lower than simply being clocked from behind or an attempt at the 'rear naked' or simply just tackled.


Being slip and grab from behind is also common in MMA situations even if you are aggressive.

yes, but it's not going to be a single arm shoulder grab. they are going to be close and aiming to get closer. slipping may not be the best option or even an option at all. you would be better, imo, training to get close and turn to face them as quickly as possible.

but, I'm still not sure exactly what technique you are describing so I need to wait for your translations and contemplate further.

and don't get me wrong, I trained many a technique for the single arm shoulder grab...at my old school on the brown sash list you had to show defenses for 8 single arm shoulder grabs: 4 from the front and 4 from the back. by my old sifu's standard you only had to show one on an evaluation but if he didn't like it then you better have a backup quick. which meant it was a good idea to practice 3...so at one time I could usually quickly show 24 different approaches to defending against that attack.

now I have 1.

;)

[Tainan Mantis]

A word on my travel to Mantis108 arctic kwoon.
As he said,"...he was okay..."

I had a nose bleed every day that I was there that lasted all day long.
Luckily the nose blood froze and solidified most of the time.

It was so dry and cold that all the hair on my right arm came off from all the 2 man contact(i favor right).

Watching the young girls walk around with exposed midriffs while I wore my entire week long wardrobe supply everytime I walked out the door took away my feelings of Mr Macho that I had worked so hard to cultivate.

But it was the best vacation I ever had.
If you consider kung fu from dawn to dusk a vacation...

[Oso]

Luckily the nose blood froze and solidified most of the time.

LMAO !

no need for bandages then.

[yu shan]

This is off topic, but leaning towards the way this thread is going... h e l l ya I`d go to the Yukon... in the summer. Robert, how in the heck do you deal with thirty below? Anyway, I`ve been thinking about this trip for sometime now. The opportunity to train with Hui Shifu and see this end of the world... priceless! If it is good enough for my Uncle, it is good enough for me. A slight change from kf dawn to dusk, can we pencil in some fishin` :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by count
Within 2 months students will start to learn forms and more complex applications like traps and throws and combinations.

that's the difference right there. With muay thai, after two months, you are still refining the same techniques you've been working for the past two months. the conditioning is upped some, but the skill set is the same - 6 knees, 6 elbows, three kicks (there are more, but the main three are what are most commonly used and practiced), 5 punches with a few variiations, defense and footwork.

I think a mantis student should be able to hold their own against boxers or kickers with the same time frame for training, and within 6 months have an advantage of knowing some good throws and takedowns.

After 6 months, you have thrown each of the above techniques literally thousands of times, and they are second nature. Also, depending on the school, you may have several months of sparring under your belt already.

As far as ground work, I guess it's never to early to get a student used to going there, but as far as self defense, IMO, hands/locking, kicks/sweeping should come first. Clearly, boxing or muay thai wouldn't give any more advantage on the ground at first if ever.

I agree with you on that.

[count]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that's the difference right there. With muay thai, after two months, you are still refining the same techniques you've been working for the past two months. the conditioning is upped some, but the skill set is the same


Originally posted by SevenStar
After 6 months, you have thrown each of the above techniques literally thousands of times, and they are second nature. Also, depending on the school, you may have several months of sparring under your belt already.

The skill set may be different but the approach is still the same. And this holds true for every style of traditional CMA. Basics, punch/blocks and kicks/steps are drilled many 1000's of repetitions weekly. Footwork until you drop daily, and sparring at ever increasing intensity from day one. That's why I said "I think a mantis student should be able to hold their own against boxers or kickers with the same time frame for training, and within 6 months have an advantage of knowing some good throws and takedowns." :cool:

[mantis108]

Hi Matt,

Great observations. I'll have to get back to you a bit later. But for now... Yang Jueng (Zhang) is upward facing palm. It's like a back hand strike with open palm. Similar technique can be found in Tongbei style. Feng Shou is sealing hand. It is a nice drill using Lou shou and hook grab pluck.

Hi Kevin,

Well, I think the nose bleeding would be even more problematic if you come during summer. ;) The girls here seem to have only one season in mind. lol...

You are absolutely right that it was by far one of the best of the best Kung Fu time for me.

Hi Jim,

there're actually golfing, fishing, and camping in summer up here. Winter time activities aren't too bad neither - snowmobiling, snow shoeing, cross country skilling, dog sleding, etc. Of course, Kung Fu for all seasons. ;) You will always be welcome here. It would be great to have some Kung Fu fun with you.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

to hell with the outdoor activities...tell us more about the wimmins !!!

c'mon yu shan, fishing is for when you can't get it up anymore !

****, did I say that on BTL's board????? :D :p ;)


ok, back on topic...

Robert, been a long day but I'll add your translations in and get back to you, fwiw.



something to think about is that the UFC is a semi-monthly PPV event...every redneck or wanna be thug is watching and imitating if not actually joining a school. I think the % of people who are either training or have trained at one time is much higher than it used to be and old assumptions about the 'average' guy on the street need to be re-evaluated upwards when considering relative threat level.

[mantis108]

I hear you, I agreed and understand where you are coming from. The reality then and the reality now are not necessarily compatible. This is why I develope my own program as such. It is in hope to address both situations at best that I could. It may not be another experienced MAist's cup of tea but a first step for people who are in my community to get a feel of the bridge between the old and the new. Hopeful, I would help them see the intrinsic value of TCMA in this post NHB/MMA paradigm. It's a difficult position to be in between a hard place and rock. But it's the journey not the destination that counts. ;) :D

"To boldly go where others have not gone before," travelling in undiscovered country is a lot of fun. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Tapani]

Hi all!

This is a bit off topic, but have you tried trainig outdoors when its cold. I did this once, it was around -10c(not too bad in Finland) and everybody was dressed as they would normally be outside. Man, doing some of the Choy Lee Fut techiniques in slippery snow with a lot of clothes was difficult!
You should try it sometime


Tapani

[yu shan]

From what KF brothers tell me, these guys are the real deal in 7* boxing. I look forward to meeting Mike and hopefully starting a friendship between our schools. This will happen at the MQ gathering in 05. Wolfen, alot of PM boxers in the US are not commercial. One of the best, Ilya Profatilov.

[shirkers1]

Wolfen

what is the purpose of your post about mike, and myself?

Are you just trying to find out some background info on him? He's pretty well known in circles around here and is well respected. :) Like yu shan says mike has and probably always will be sort of underground to the mainstream but people who know or want info go to him. Great guy and knows his stuff. Yes he looks in on this site as well but never posts. I just don't think he cares about being out there for all to see, he just does his thing and trains hard.

mantisboxer.com is a site that some mantis boxers from SC have, they train with mike so they have some pics of him on the site as well. The site itself isn't mike's. The whole SC thing is like a threeharmonies deal where ron and the guys from SC have their own school but go to mike to get new material or have stuff corrected. The guys in SC are very nice as well.

Here's a link that has mike's contact info. If you have questions I'm sure he'll answer them. http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven_star/mantis_links.html