FIND IT

[tnwingtsun]

Ok,this is a learning forum based on the art or arts of,WC/WT/VT.

Come up with a question,maybe such as..........
Where is the "Hooking punch" in SNT??

Sharing is good........

[Watchman]

I've got a question for ya, tnwingtsun:

On the main forum we both mentioned briefly Wing Chun's usage of the Phoenix Eye fist. It has been taught to me by my sifu, but I haven't devoted a great deal of time training it or it's applications.

With your experience in both Wing Tsun and Bak Mei, what is the best way to apply it in your opinion?

How is it trained to gain the best effect?

How do you train the power (Wing Chun way as opposed to Bak Mei)?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[tnwingtsun]

Phoenix Eye fist as taught to me by YQ Wong(Bai Mei).
I'll try to summerarize it.
The whole body acts in unison(see Bai Mei internal concepts,SINK,SWALLOW,SPIT,FLOAT)putting
a tourqing/whip like power that drives the LOOSE
fist,upon contact the first digit of the thumb and the second digit of the middle finger lock in the first digit of the index finger,the power is focused on the point of the index finger knuckle and a drilling action takes place in and through the target.

>what is the best way to apply it in your opinion?<

It has been and still is difficult to mix the power generating concepts of these two different
but similar systems,but at times I reach a point where I can see where they compliment each other.
The WT Phoenix Eye fist looks the same but thats where it stops.
It was not taught to me as "Hey guys,look,the WT
Phoenix Eye fist",it just looked like one,the fists are held loose with the index fingers protruding,a WT punch is launched contacting the upper sternam,lower knuckels impacting first,the angle of the sternam and the travel of the fist rides up to and through the throat,when reaching the throat the index finger contacts first and colapses itself back into the fist.
Although the finger is not "locked in" like Bai Mei's is at the last split second the index knuckle causes damage none the less almost like a double tap.I hope I'm making sence.
Now this is just what "I" have learned from WT,WC/VT may use this fist in a different way,OR,in the more advanced levels of WT they might show me something about this fist when I cross that bridge(no pun intended).
Back to your question,do you mean by which concept has become the default within me?


"How is it trained to gain the best effect?"

I think if you are going to use that knuckle as the tip of you spear you should train it the Bai Mei way(like iron palm for the knuckle).
Now that I train WT I can use it as a seeking knuckle,this is one of the many places the two systems cross,when you contact your target and feel it shift away from your power you follow and drive towards the target,a snaping Bai Mei like action at the escaping target could be used.
I belive other Southern short arm systems use this "snapping action" also.

"How do you train the power (Wing Chun way as opposed to Bak Mei)?"

A book could be written on any of your questions,let me ask you of your WC style,do you guys lock out your arms at the end of your chain punches?


:)

[Watchman]

>>>do you guys lock out your arms at the end of your chain punches?<<<

Yes and no. When training our punches in the air we fully extend our arms (thrust from the elbow, let the shoulder extend, entire arm stretches forward). The arms don't "lock" on full extension per se, but immediately relax back to a bent position after the full extension. The feeling is like throwing a baseball.

When impact training (hitting focus mits, my little brother's head, etc.) I'm close enough that if I used my thumb and pinkie to form a 90 degree angle and placed my thumb against my chest, the elbow of my striking arm would be just in front of my pinkie upon my fist's impact with the striking surface -- therefore upon impact my arm isn't fully extended, but because I train to full extension the elbow pressure from the thrust will sink the shock power into the opponent.

Does that help?

As far as the phoenix eye that my sifu showed me (as a Biu Tze application) I brace my index finger at the first knuckle with my thumb, but the rest of my fingers aren't clenched into a fist (they are held loosely). Hitting with it is more like cracking a whip or snapping a wet towel (with the point of the knuckle being the "end of the whip") than the drilling effect you described with your Bak Mei. The action is like the fak sau motion in SLT where you flick your hands out to the sides - getting the full arm extension and using the "flicking" motion to release power through the fingers or knuckles.

I haven't played around with it much and have had somewhat of a difficult time utilizing serious power with the strike (probably because I haven't trained it enough :rolleyes: ).

>>>I think if you are going to use that knuckle as the tip of you spear you should train it the Bai Mei way(like iron palm for the knuckle).<<<

What is this Bai Mei Pheonix Eye Iron Palm of which you speak, and how do you train it? :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[dzu]

Hi guys,

I hope you don't mind me tossing in my 2 cents.

The phoenix eye is in our Biu Jee form but we practice it and apply it in san sau and chi sau before that.

The phoenix eye is an excellent tool for point hitting due to its penetrative nature. Many points are about the size of a quarter and the knuckle fits perfectly. Using the right ging can send the energy into a smaller area than the normal jik chung choi. Point hitting is built into the system already and most of us do it without knowing that we do it. Wing Chun has the delivery system to attack the points built into it's tools (pak da, tan da, lop da, the various kicks etc.) so we are NOT trying to fixate on specific points. If you get a copy of an accupuncture chart, you can see that many of the vital points are targetted within the system already along the centerline and on eithe rside of the centerline. The regular jik chung choi can hit these points in application as well, but the phoenix eye can focus the ging better IMHO. I hold the fist the same as for the standard punch except that the middle knuckle of the index finger is extended and the thumb is firmly resting on top. I practice hitting cardboard boxes as well as the wall bag. You can use iron palm training to condition the hands, but in modern day training where time is limited, I'd rather work on other aspects of WC that are more universally applicable.


As for the elbow extension, I was trained to never extend the elbow fully. Fully extending the elbow discharges all your power and severs the link to the body. Keeping it bent maintains some of the potential energy. In some cases, straightening the elbow when hitting can also raise the shoulder slightly, which is not a good thing. By keeping the elbow slightly bent upon contact, I can maintain the link to the entire body so that no power is lost and my connection to the opponent and the ground. Also, the follow up strikes will have power because my elbows are still bent and not trying to recover from straightening. I focus my intention through the target and rely upon timing, positioning, and ging to penetrate rather than straighting the elbow completely.

regards,
Dzu