Kung Fu, Politics, and anthropology

[Hermes3X]

a reluctant partisan in the kung fu vs all the other martial arts in the world war, I have participated in quite a few discussions about the superiority of Japanese and Japanese based arts over Chinese arts (as has nearly every poster at this forum, seemingly). I was just thinking that perhaps this fight has utterly no basis in reality and is in fact rooted in the historical reality that for the past fifty years the Japanese have been close American allies, whereas the Chinese have been, at best, diplomatic acquaintances and, at worse, faceless hordes ready to overwhelm the American Way of Life at any moment. I sense that there is a general feeling in America that Japanese martial arts are better than Chinese Arts. I propose that this feeling is rooted in political alliances (and the attendent media alterations of thought) and in little else. Any thoughts?


Second, does anyone know anything about the anthropology of the martial arts? I am specifically interested in the origins of Chinese martial arts (when compared to non-state Asian peoples aka "primitive" peoples), the relationship between shamanism and Daoist arts, and the overlap between Folk religion and martial arts. I'm also curious if anyone has considered the Western Origins of Shaolin Kung Fu? By this I mean the following: Supposedly, after Alexander the Greek invaded Bactria and India, he brought with him Greek philosophy and thought. This philosophy effected Indian religion and perhaps religious practices. If the myth is that Damo, an Indian expatriot, taught the monks at shaolin several exercises to increase their health, then perhaps their is a Greek connection.

Mind, this is all entirely speculation

[SPJ]

Good questions.

Shaolin is over 2000 years old. Damo is a mystical figure. He visited around 1500 years ago. Buddha was born around 2500 years ago.

India philosophies started over 4000 to 5000 years, written in Sankrit and then Pali. Unfortunately not a lot of written records.

5 animal sets are over 2000 years old. They are oldest Shaolin Gong Fu.

Mount Wudang hosts Daoists. Their Wushu are not only for defense but also emphasize harmony and maybe for a longer life and health. Daoist theory and life philosophy are merged with Wushu they practice.

Politics:

China is a land of integration.

Communism is from Mother Russia. Buddhism is from India. Moslem is the largest minority. Capitalism is from Anglo-american.

Nationalist/Republican is based on British senate system, French liberty for all, and American for the people, by the people etc.

Military alliance.

Japan and US are from the oceans. China is close to Russia due to the longest border in the world.

CMA started at least 5000 years ago. Yellow emporer fought numerous tribal wars and became the first ruler of China.

Sun Tzu wrote Bin Fa 2500 years ago to summarize 2000 years of warfare.

Where were the Greeks 5000 years ago?



:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

Sounds like a great book to me. I think that if one were to really compile a decent text on the subject one would have to travel to all parts of the world and get together with archeaoligists and study some of the writings and petroglyphs and such.

From my limited research the martial arts as a means of study and creation has its roots in Africa where the oldest known writings and drawing on cave walls and such depict men grappling with one another in a seemingly sport or practice sort of way.

As far as the Japanese martial arts as opposed to the chinese,,i think what we have here is NOT so much a political discussion based on Allies and enemies of the democratic way of life. At one time japan was our enemy so it is inconclusive to state that we as americans view JMA as superior to chinese...in fact in ww2 china was our ally in fighting the japanese.

i think the difference in JMA and CMA has to do with the self discipline that both styles create for itself,,,,it would seem that the JMA focuses more on the hard discipline of fighting rather than this flowery atmosphere that CMA seems to give off.
But all of that can be decieveing as i have done Xingyi and pakua and those are CMA's that have this discipine that are similar to that of the hard discipline of JMA. Yet in Aikido we have this flowery aspect that reflects the principles in taichi and qiqong meditation. so you see we have this Yin and yang approach to the JMA and the CMA...BOTH styles emerged from one another so there is an inherent connection.
as to my preference? I like xingyi and pakua because it does relfect the intense focus and discipline that the JMA projects for i prefer that to say the "new agey american" way that these internal arts are pursued.

PEACE,,,TWS

[Vash]

Okinawan Karate > Japanese Karate :)

[mantis108]

Indeed it would be a great book.

Here's a link to an excellent article by a forum member here:

Brief history of Chinese Martial Arts (http://chinwan.com.ar/ross1.htm)

I think popularity of JMA in North American does have a lot to do with the second world war. If not for popular culture icons such as Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li, Kung Fu would hardly be on the radar at all. BTW, Shaw Brothers KF flicks and Tarantino joints play a great role in keeping the pulse of CMA going.

While it can be argued that Bodhidharma or Indian MA might not have been the origin of Chinese martial arts in general (Wushu). I hold to the idea that Kung Fu (not Wushu) is specifically refers to Chinese MA that has spiritual outlook especially that of Ch'an (Shaolin) and/or afflication with Shaolin. In a way, we could say that Shaolin Kung Fu would have influences of Indian spiritual outlook and Indian martial arts culture. There are plenty of evidence in the actual methodologies and practices to support this other than just myths and legends. Far many people are ready to discard those with the so-called proof of non existance of Bodhidharma. BTW, that's politically motivated IMHO as well. The Indian influence in Kung Fu (especially southern) can not and should not be discarded lightly. Now Wushu, both traditional and modern, of course is another story.

Kung Fu in turn influenced Okinawan martial arts which in turn influenced martial arts in the Japan islands. This influence is since the Tang dynasty (618 - 906 CE) beginning with the migration of Budhism. The height of actual MA influence would be around Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE) when Okinawans started to sought after other means of self defense. Ming dynasty is the first time in Chinese military history that a fully documented paradigm shift in battle tactics in response to fighting Japanese pirates invading the costal regions. IMHO, the influence of this rapid deploy oriented strategy against an unconventional army of robbers and thugs would be the mother of all modern day Chinese martial arts especially that of Kung Fu.

We can easily see the clear relation between Zen (formerly Ch'an of Chinese Buddhism) and Bushido. We can also see the Greco-Indian influence (through Buddhism) in swordsmanship such as Miyamoto Musashi's Scrolls of Five Rings. The five elements that he used are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Void which are not the same as Chinese's five elements (Water, Wood, Fire, Earth, and Metal). BTW, the first 4 rings of the 5 rings also represent the 4 elements in the Katana katas (sword forms).

Inclusion, one word can sum it up really well - evolution. That are lots of clues to this. All we need to do is to open up our hearts and mind. No mountain nor ocean, nor even country, can stop evolution. Seek and thou shalt find (discipline, peace, love, etc...)

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

...had I understood my path better in college, I would have majored in Cultural Anthropology and focused on MA. But no. No one is really looking at MA from that stnadpoint yet, but there is some scholarly work on the history of MA. It's challenging for most MA people, because the bulk of our tradition is oral, and it all falls under invention of tradition. It seems pretty clear that MA as we know it is much younger than we beleive. The notion of the arts as self cultivation instead of strictly military is new. Hurst argues that the notion of self cultivation arose after the gun had rendered martial arts obsolete. That notion is echoed in other works, and is somewhat consistent with first documented versions of 'internal' martial arts - the fusing of qigong practice with martial. To me, well, like most of you, I've been raised on the same creation myths of CMA, and I have a great deal of faith in the usefulness of those myths as a metaphor. But now, after chipping at this for a while, I lean toward the scholarly evidence.

[Shaolinlueb]

Hermes3X, wow I never thought of it like that. but frankly I dont care either. just practice harder, more chi!

[Tak]

Originally posted by SPJ
Where were the Greeks 5000 years ago?

Doing some naked, male-only wrestling, that's where. :eek:

[Hermes3X]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...had I understood my path better in college, I would have majored in Cultural Anthropology and focused on MA. But no. No one is really looking at MA from that stnadpoint yet, but there is some scholarly work on the history of MA. It's challenging for most MA people, because the bulk of our tradition is oral, and it all falls under invention of tradition. It seems pretty clear that MA as we know it is much younger than we beleive. The notion of the arts as self cultivation instead of strictly military is new. Hurst argues that the notion of self cultivation arose after the gun had rendered martial arts obsolete. That notion is echoed in other works, and is somewhat consistent with first documented versions of 'internal' martial arts - the fusing of qigong practice with martial. To me, well, like most of you, I've been raised on the same creation myths of CMA, and I have a great deal of faith in the usefulness of those myths as a metaphor. But now, after chipping at this for a while, I lean toward the scholarly evidence.

ANTHROPOLOGY ROCKS!!!!!!

Gene, my ten year plan involves going to U of Florida (probably) for an anthropology PhD and working on two issues - Human ecology (ie the interaction between cultures and the environment) and Violence/anthropology of Warfare. (you have to dress it up so that You can write a dissertation about it.) You're like the third or fourth person whose opinion is worth a **** that I've heard say, seemingly out of no where, that the time for a scholarly analysis of martial arts has come. (I'd really love to see what Marxist analysis of martial arts are like. Not just that they're vestiges of a feudal system, but something great and totally mind-numbingly materialist)

Here's a question for people to mull over. What are the animal stylists going to do when the tigers are gone, the cranes are dead and the monkeys only throw poop in zoos? Part of the tradition, as far as I understand it, is watching the animal in the wild.


finally, if I may ask, what degree(s) did you take, Gene?

[Hermes3X]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
Hermes3X, wow I never thought of it like that. but frankly I dont care either. just practice harder, more chi!

practice is very good, reading is very good. Employment is what gets in the way. (unless of course you're making money off kung fu)

[SPJ]

Yellow emporer fought wars and not wrestling.

Wrestling as sports occurred 2500 years later.

They wore animal skins for camouflage. They used clubs and used fogs as a cover. They picked the time and the place to fight. They used more people to overwhelm the smaller group. They divided and conquered. They planed.

Did the wrestling Greeks travel all the way to China and teach YE all that?

Hm?

That is truly Greek to me.

:confused: