"Friendly" match goes bad

[Ray Pina]

So I skipped training on Friday because of heavy rains, flooding and traffic.

Enjoying being home on a Fri. after work instead of heading into Manhattan I was BBQ some chicken and walking the circle as it cooked. My landlord knocked on my door and introduced me to a friend visiting from Florida.

Turns out he does some Korean art and starts showing me how they are both hard and soft but he likes the soft and he's pretty ****y. A little taller than me but probbaly only 180-185. I'm 197 right now.

So we start to play but I'm getting aggrovated. I'd jam him, turn him completely around and ride him into my wall (holding my strikes) only to have him turn around and dive at my legs when I let go. Then we'd fight on the ground. I got above him with a headlock and could have been kneeing the **** out of him but didn't, just holding the lock, and he PULLED MY HAIR! At that point I realised this guy A) isn't that good and B) is a real ***** of a sour loser.

After that I gave him my head gear and preceded to beat the crap out of him, breaking his necklace and his watch.

This sort of thing has happened on a lesser level before and always bothers me but I've never seen it like this before.

Also, even though I was holding strikes in the beginning and simply controlling him, he was able to get me into a headlock that made my neck stiff on Sat. and Sun. I still need to work on that type of clinching because I like to fight face to face.

[red5angel]

so let's see, this guy was able to take you down, and used some real world tactics (hair pulling can work folks), and you break his necklace and watch and HE sucks?

[Ray Pina]

I'll explain to you what happened in better detail then:

On our first exchange I was able to get to his outside gate and push him back about 6 or 7 feet till he hit the wall ... I pinned him with my left and my right was free to strike him the entire time.

After reaching the wall and nowhere left to drive him and not wanting to hit him or kick him -- I felt I demonstrated that I had control of him -- I released the pressure and he dove for my legs ... at that point I thought that engament was over and was going to return to the center of my training area to go again.

I rode out his attack, using my left forearm again to pin him. He kept coming so then I locked him .... if it was a real fight I would have begun kneeing his face ... but he continued to drive me back and I was aproaching my little bamboo partition that seperates where I train and where I live (watch TV, write, sleep, ect.).

So at that point I changed tactics and went down to the ground on my own .... I did not crank his kneck as I could have, because I don't know what that would have done, maybe cause some damage. But having done this, he grabbed my hair. I got out, we broke and then we did this again. I pinned him on the left wall. I pinned him on the right wall. I pinned him all over but he would refuse to acknowlegde that he was being beaten and would continue to fight after I let up a bit.

So I gave him head gear. We went again. I'd hit him a few times and drive him against the wall and when he fought out I'd hit him a few times. What made fighting him difficult is that he turned his back anytime he was overwhelemed. If he was a stranger attacking me on the street I'd just clobber the base of his skull/spine but this was someone visiting my landlord that I invited into my home. He trained, believe it or not, in copeira and TKD in the past, and now another Korean system that sounded hokie to me (said he's learning mantis techniqes at this school.)

Anyway, during a few of the exchanges that we had while he was backed up against the wall I tore off his hemp necklace (not sure how that happned) and the face of his watch broke against the handle of a closet or something... he also put a little crack in my wall but it was bound to happen sooner or later anyway. I'll move a picture to cover it.

Afterwards the guy complained about his watch and how he wasn't familiar with the surroundings and wasn't used to that type of sparring. The thing is I wanted to keep it friendly but he would not recognize.

Have you ever experienced this? I get that a lot in chi sauing but in sparring, people usually either want to keep it light or really go.

He wanted to keep it light but not lose and was enjoying the fact that he wasn't getting hit at first so why not keeping going even though he was completely turned.

If someone is good enough to stop your attack, turn you and pin you, believe me, they are good enough to get strikes in .... that's the easy part.

[Hermes3X]

Pardon me, Evolution, what is your base/home style?

[yenhoi]

LOL.

This is a vital part of MA training. You did good, you did your job as the higher skilled player. Too bad about the neck. That really ****es me off when some new random guy comes in muscling his way around getting tooled, but still managed to tweak your neck for a few days.

:eek:

[Mutant]

it sounds like some kind of 'girl fight'. ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
it sounds like some kind of 'girl fight'. ;)


in girl fight do you mean shaolin-do fight?


:p :D

[Ray Pina]

The engine fueling the whole thing at this time is definitely of Hsing-I origin, in that I try to maintain my shape/structure and drive off the back foot. Shoulders driving the elbow driving the fist is also of top priority.

My general tactic right now if to take a right lead with the idea of intercepting whatever is initially throw by striking it with the lead but having the back hand support it so that it creates an X shield in the general incoming area. Once contact is made, I then rush in using the elbows to block or jam the following blows .... For example, I'll counter punch the guys right lead punch .... my forearms looking like this: X in front of me and crash in .... My right elbow will come up to cover my head as I come in ..... chi sau from there. ..... same idea against kicking though I tend to attack with a low lead leg front kick to nuetralize the kick as I come in.

My stuff is changing though right now. Over the past few months I've been shown some new materials which has me thinking and this was my first out of class encounter in about 2 months -- been surfing and chilling a bit.

....

Posted this to get some feedback from others about this type of recation from people because it's starting to get on my nerves. About a year a go I got a nasty black eye when I got inside of someone chi sauing and didn't shock their head only for them to roll the elbow. My teacher saw this but blaimed me, said I should have controlled him till the end, and if necessary, hit him anyway.

I've sort of learned the lesson but tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt because when someone gets me of course they tend to apologize for getting me good but I say, "No, good shot." I expect the same from other MA.

Anyway, that's all I had to say and I'm going to start minimizing my posts for a while because I see the board getting hostile again. I like to discuss martial arts at a martial art forum but when I post something in all honesty and with positive intentions and get some of these replies insinuating that I'm fabricating or attacking me, why bother.

If it's one thing I learned, it's that fighting is a completely chaotic event .... who knows what will happen and how. I can only control what I do in an effort to turn things in my favor.

In general, I was very happy with the outcome but as a practicing MA unhappy that this guy was able to get my head .... that only bothers me because it was a variable that had effect in my last ring fight and I thought I nixed it, but fighting is a completely chaotic .....

[Meat Shake]

Yup...
Being too nice is just hurting yourself 9 times out of 10. I cant even count how many times Ive gone gentle on someone who is going full, just to have them hit me and think they are 'winning'....

[Mutant]

hey man, i was just messing with you not being hostile, i thought the little smiley face would indicate that. i mean, come on, youre talking about a fight that includes hair-pulling and miffed feelings over broken jewelery, hehe. don't cut back your posting over a little ribbing.

[Mutant]

i find that most people you meet outside of a serious training club can't handle sparring, and i'm talking as much about attitude and insecurity-wise as skill level. and i don't intend that as a dis to them, they just havent learned how to spar as youre expecting them to. which is understandable because they probably have never done enough quality sparring to get the interactive part of it and let go of their ego, or recognize when someone's holding something back and taking it easy.

so to me it comes down to 2 choices:
a) blow them off all together and duck out of sparring, even if it means humbling your own ego.
-or-
b) take them out quick, overwhelm them, neutralize them or pin them, without really hurting them.

if you expect them to 'play' fair, they never will and they most likely won't recognize when you have them trumped and are being nice. and their ego and temper will flare and they'll inevitably try some cheap sh!t and spaz out.

so its best just to default to choice a) and blow it off.

sometimes you do meet somebody that makes a good sparring partner to exchange things with and try things out on and thats a cool thing and can be fun. sure sometimes there's an injury, but thats to be expected in martial arts, and if someone's experienced sparring, they'll understand that too.

you can usually tell the difference between people before you start sparring. if theyre a delusional spaz or ego tripping then don't waste your time unless youre willing to take them out. in that case its not a situation to try new techniques and material or expect fair interaction to test your latest theory.

okay, how's that for a serious reply to contribute to the message bored? i liked my first response better. :p

[The Willow Sword]

When you are in a Match like that, whether it be "friendly" or not,,dont pull your Skills or hold back,,,dont brutalize they guy but you have to show skills.

I remember matches like these in the past where i would be nice and pull my stuff and they would come in all aggressive as if they were condifent that they had the upper hand. Then aggravation set in and "POP" ,,,,lessons learned and respect earned.

This is a beginner sparring nightmare (what do you do,,do you pull your strikes,,geez what if i get hit and it gets out of hand???)
Remember what it is that you are practicing,,studying,,training in.
I dont like the violence and getting hit just as much as the next guy,,,but thats the reality that i accept everytime some knuckle head wants to flex.

Kudos to you for being courteous EF. Next time maybe ask the level at which they wish to spar at. then there wont be any confusion.


Peace,,,TWS

[Chief Fox]

I've sparred with idiots like this before.

In my class we use no pads when sparring in order to rely on the techniques. Usually between sparring partners there is good communication. Sometimes that communication is verbal like "nice sweep" or "that was good, you would have caught me with that one" and sometimes it is physical like making light contact. I also sometimes stop a kick right before contact and hang it there for a second to let my opponent know that they would have gotten kicked right there.

Anyway, I'm sparring this "idiot" one time and I'm trying to communicate with him. So I'm hanging my leg there to let him know that he would have been kicked. The only problem is, he doesnt' take my leg hanging there as a sign that he would have been kicked, he grabs on to it and proceeds to push me over backwards onto my back. it doesn't matter to him that had I been going full on that he'd be the one laying on the ground. So after this I proceed to really kick him and back him up all the way across the training hall.

Anyway, my point is. Some people get it and some people don't. The people that get it have a life time of martial arts ahead of them. The people that don't, will probably move on to another art or quit all together or maybe even end up getting hurt. So don't let the idiots get to you. You can actually learn from them. They're great people to go all out on. :-)

[rubthebuddha]

i think it was merryprankster who had the best suggestion to this a while back:

"why don't you go at a level your comfy with and i'll match it."

if they go a little too hard, ask them to match yours instead.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


He wanted to keep it light but not lose and was enjoying the fact that he wasn't getting hit at first so why not keeping going even though he was completely turned.. Yet another reason to learn how to grapple effectively.

[rubthebuddha]

another reason? :confused:

i'm still waiting for the first one.














*snap*oh yeah, THAT reason. :D

[sticky fingers]

So what happened to your chicken on the BBQ?

[SevenStar]

Sometimes you have to hurt people. Not hurt as in main or anything, mind you, but do as MP's suggestion and match his level, or raise it just a tad. We have guys that are fairly new (and some that have been around, but have ego issues), but for some reason, think they have something to prove. These guys spar hard no matter what the drill. I've got an advantage on my side - I can hit harder than most of the people I train with. If he starts getting overly aggressive, I pop him one good hard time, either to the body or the legs - that tends to make them back off some. each time they aggress, I respond in kind.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Sometimes you have to hurt people. Not hurt as in main or anything, mind you, but do as MP's suggestion and match his level, or raise it just a tad. We have guys that are fairly new (and some that have been around, but have ego issues), but for some reason, think they have something to prove. These guys spar hard no matter what the drill. I've got an advantage on my side - I can hit harder than most of the people I train with. If he starts getting overly aggressive, I pop him one good hard time, either to the body or the legs - that tends to make them back off some. each time they aggress, I respond in kind.

I sparred with my sister-in-law a week ago and I did that, but she just considered that lack of control on my part :mad:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe
I sparred with my sister-in-law a week ago and I did that, but she just considered that lack of control on my part :mad:

That's okay - most in-laws deserve it anyway.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
That's okay - most in-laws deserve it anyway.

True enough :D

See, she just got her BB in Shotokan karate, so she knows more about MA than me, and my sparring skills are just not up to her standard. :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Ask her for a no holds barred cage fight and then see who spars better.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
Ask her for a no holds barred cage fight and then see who spars better.

Nah, just need to fight with a bit more contact. But then, I am still not comfortable with smacking down a woman :).

I have figured out that it is because she has this idea of what sparring/fighting should be like, and that just happens to be what they do in her school.

I can tell you now, it was a frustrating experience sparring with her. :)

[Ray Pina]

You know, you are absolutely right. When it came to hands and feet he couldn't match me, but my locks weren't dead, meaning he had squirming room..... also, I don't have the same control grappling and didn't want to crank anything. My grappling is definitely a work in progress.

....

MW

No offense taken. It was actually a strange type of situation, felt closer to an outside fight than a lot of sparring sessions I've had in that we weren't breaking in the traditional sense and there was clothes grabbing and hair pulling .... I'm surprised the guy didn't bite me now that I think about it.

[Tak]

Originally posted by joedoe
she has this idea of what sparring/fighting should be like, and that just happens to be what they do in her school.

Isn't that everybody's idea of what sparring should be like? And if not, wtf are you at that school?

[CD Lee]

Yet another reason to learn how to grapple effectively.


Grappling sux. You can get scratched doing that stuff. No need to grapple. If you get taken down, just tap out. :D

[David Jamieson]

One time, in a sparring session, not at band camp, I was sparring with one of my class mates and I hooked his kick and tossed him.

Not once, but twice. :(

Anyway, point is that at the time I was overly aggresive and a little prideful. What I did was wrong and I learned from it. Sparring is just that, sparring. It's not a competition with a prize at stake, its an exchange and should be regarded as such.

However, if the participants want to up the intensity, then it should be agreed upon before hand.

In my case, this agreeance wasn't made, I was the a.sshole.

learn from donny don't and don't do what donny don't did. :)

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Last night I got together with a few friends and we take turns controlling the action.

I was reffing and my one friends was driving another off the grass divider and near the curb so I called break.... the one had the other turned. Right after I called break and the pressure was let up the guy who was getting pushed out and turned threw an elbow -- an elbow that was not available before I called break.

This guy's 25 and has been training now for 2 years and I told him straight out that it's **** poor, bad sportsmanship and a terrible traight for a martial artist.

For a second he tried to explain how he was caught up in the moment implying that it was unconscious .... it was 100% conscious and evident to everyone.

I simply said we all know what happened, put it behind us but if it happened again he wouldn't be invited back. Behavior like that puts people's health in jeopardy. Break means break, freeze whatever you're doing.

[Banjos_dad]

EF,
Sounds like the guy was a beginner, who didn't even know enough to feel ashamed about doing that...
That's a problem with light sparring...you get those people who won't acknowledge when a strike or other technique would have caused a knockdown or maybe even ended the fight.
I have run into this sparring with 'noobs at our school, especially when they are 'experienced' :rolleyes: like your opponent was :D .

Did you ask him what lineage of "Korean Mantis" teaches you to turn turtle when you're getting owned? Or did that come from TKD too? lol

Even if you had put some grappling moves on him, from your account it sounds like you would have shown mercy anyway...
Only 'noobs mistake kindness for weakness...

I'm kind of curious from the description of your place where you live/where you train...Are you an instructor, teaching from home, or the converse, living quarters inside studio? Just wondering.
Have a good one--B_d

[Ray Pina]

I have what could be considered a large studio with a seperare kitchen and bath but the large open space is kind of "L" shaped.

So I blocked off the vertical and horizontal meeting place with an entertainment system and covered it with a large bamboo curtain that was there when I moved in.

The long end is probably 13 to 15 yards by 5 yards ... just perfect to have a few friends over to play. The otherise of the screen has my TV and a couch, a computer and tucked away in the corner is my waterbed.

It really is ideal for me at this stage in my life (single) and is one block up from the sand at the beach I like to surf at.

There's now 2 TKD schools in my neighborhood but even with some friendly instigating I can't get them to play. Chris "The Cannan" Wagner, world kick boxing champ (don't know in what league but supposedly fought at Mohegan Sun a week ago) also has a training hall in my town but it is mostly cardio for chics but they have a ring but you have to pay $60 for a session with him or his instructors. Been meaning to do that.

I've been trying to promote some type of inter-city get togethers where we can all play but nobody seems interested. As far as students, my landlord aproached me about helping out there son about two years ago. At 16 he's getting some skills but we still need to work his selection. He's very passive, shielding in backing out. But when I tell him to come in, then he comes in like a bull (wonder where he's getting that from:rolleyes: ). So now, I'm teaching him -- and myself -- to be selective in agreeing to engage, but once that decision has been made to see it through with full intent.

I've learned a lot by sharing some things with him.

[Banjos_dad]

Sounds like a nice setup...& throw in a block from the beach= perfect.

I bet if you are patient & persistent you can put together a group for sparring...I wouldn't mind sparring with you but I pretty much live at the other end of the country:D

I can admit it when I'm losing...most of the people I spar with are better than me...our workout is so taxing that the avg. noob doesn't stay long enough to get the first scuff mark on his Otomix...the ones that do stay are driven, committed to learning. Sparring with senior students = screw around at your own risk, you'll receive an unwanted lesson otherwise :( teaches you to go for finesse rather than relying on 100% muscle. = honest light contact sparring. Then if you need to break out with it for real, you can combine both but it goes without saying sparring for practice does not equal fighting for real.

Sparring with strangers off the street (or a-friend-of-a-friend) you never know what you'll get. Someone earlier said basically don't spar with whack-o people, but sometimes they can hide it so well, you don't know they're "off" until your fighthng them, and then you're on your own until the match is called or ended.

The main lesson I got from Lee's "Tao of Jeet Kune Do:"
"Seek the truth in combat." --Worth the price of the book, just that one maxim. IMO anyway.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

thats why i dont spar people i dont know.

i dont have to be best friends with them mind you, but i wont spar someone i have just met. i'd just as soon put on the gloves and fight them cause that's what will probably happen.