Northern Mantis Teachers should .....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

A few things occured to me to write but I didn't know what topic to post them under so I'll start this generalized thread and after saying my piece others can jump in with their experiences and opinions.

Master Chan expects you (as an instructor) to know your material well enough that you can pull line drills, 2-man drills, applications, performance sets, etc. right out of the forms you are taught. He can do it (witnessed by me on more than one occassion) so he expects everyone else (given enough training) to do the same. Now obviously this is only one way, and perhaps the traditional way, of teaching. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't matter as his opinion doesn't seem to have changed too much over the years and isn't about to change now.

As some of you know that isn't an easy task. Most aren't up for the challenge or it's beyond their capacity. I'm on the fringes of understanding a lot of this myself. Personally, challenges (though I may hate them at the time) make life interesting.

When I teach I use moves or sections of forms as single and 2-man drills. I've developed a few drills for basics that illustrate apps for the moves as well as perfect timing and reflex, etc. I've extracted core moves that are common in the forms and drill them. I also pull 'self defense' moves from forms. One thing though, I'm moving away from the 'self defense' type of thinking (common in Kenpo and Karate) into more of a generalized fighting way of thinking. If you understand how to move and react you can deal with any situation. You don't need to learn a specific app for each possible attack. It's all just fighting (but you do have to start with some specifics until the student start thinking for himself).

In the old days of WL (from what I've heard) training was random (closest word I could think of) in that there was no curriculum or standard progression through basics up to advanced. You learned what he felt fit you and your ability. I've heard of guys in good shape starting out with 18 Elbows as the first set learned. Over the years MC organized everything (most likely those around him assisted quite a bit) into the current WL System. Maybe someday new drills will be added that will be taught at all the schools to standardize things even more (although I'd still like the freedom retained).

BTW, if anyone in WL feels my assessments are incorrect (still many schools and Sifus I haven't visited and talked to) please add corrections or email me privately. This is just my view and opinion based on my experiences in WL.

As usual my views and opinions are probably way out there but that's just me. i seem to have an aversion to 'following the pack'.

[SPJ]

As a teacher, you know the "levels" of each student. You may teach them accordingly.

How they advance depends on themself. How much they practice, how much they understand, how skillful, or how proficient they are.

You point out their good sides, you also point out what they need to spend more time on.

However, basic moves and forms are inseparable.

I was asked to recite the names of the forms. I practice each move singly for 50 to 100 times each day and add new moves one at time. A couple of months down the road, I may do the whole form in one piece.

Apps are always on my mind when I practice every single time. That alerts me the purpose of my moves. My steps, weight shifting, direction of movement of arms and legs.

Practice makes perfect.

[SPJ]

General way of fighting.

1) You have to think about you are fighting one or several opponents in your front, rear, left or right.

2) The attacks going toward, your head, chest/abdomen or groins and legs.

3) Your defending strategy and counterattack.

True, you may work out some general moves and keep them the same all the time.

Once you have the general "moves".

Next level, you start to vary some different moves that serve the same purposes.

Why? if you have 4 people jump at you, you defeat them. What if the second round of 4, you may do the same. The third round of 4 may alert to your moves and change their tactics, you need to change, too.

You may have core principles and strategy. But you need 2 or 3 moves to interchange for the same purpose.

You know what. They are all in the forms you practice. That is why it is important to know the forms inside out or outside in. It is important for me and also for many people like your teacher.

So next time, you practice your moves in the forms. You remind yourself.

1) direction of the opponent(s)

2) attacks coming toward your left, right, high, mid or low.

3) defense strategy and counter attack.

4) steps and moves of arms and legs, economics and efficiency.

Sorry being a student the traditional way myself.

[mantiskilla]

SPJ brings up a good point. one of the most important things in MA is intent. if you do not know what it is that you are doing, or why, you cannot have intent in your movement, no intent, then you might as well be dancing. the more advanced, the more the mind is involved, and if there is no connection you will not grow.
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[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Agreed. The problem with show forms is that whatever intent there is seems to be focused on executing the moves, not the results of the moves. When watching a form you should get the feeling they are really fighting someone.

Of course it might not look as pretty. :D

[Mi Hou Tao]

good point,

Fighting is not pretty, dancing is.

are we training to dance or fight?:confused:

[kosovo]

What I keep in mind, when I'm doing the forms that seem pretty or superficial, is there is a reason for these movements.

1)I would never use a ridiculously low stance in a fight, but in a form it helps to build leg strength and root.

2)Many aerial kicks work only for surprise situations, and I don't feel they are reasonable for combat. These same manuevers never fail to work my cardiovascular, and help fine tune me into shape.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Mi Hou Tao
good point,

Fighting is not pretty, dancing is.

are we training to dance or fight?:confused:


I suppose pretty, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
I find a certain beauty in watching a TCMA practitioner kicking @ss.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
A few things occured to me to write but I didn't know what topic to post them under so I'll start this generalized thread and after saying my piece others can jump in with their experiences and opinions.

Master Chan expects you (as an instructor) to know your material well enough that you can pull line drills, 2-man drills, applications, performance sets, etc. right out of the forms you are taught. He can do it (witnessed by me on more than one occassion) so he expects everyone else (given enough training) to do the same. Now obviously this is only one way, and perhaps the traditional way, of teaching. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't matter as his opinion doesn't seem to have changed too much over the years and isn't about to change now.


If taught well, the student can. a teacher shouldnt expect it before 2 years lol. I have been a head instructor for a year. I can do that given a form.

now are you talking right away or get to perfect the form first? you cant know a form right away with all the applications unless you got crazy exp and skill, which usually comes to long time martial artists like your sifu.

[sayloc]

He said the INSTRUCTOR should be able to break the form down into two person drills and applications FOR the STUDENT.

By the time the student is an instructor he will have had enough exprience with this process to do it themselves. Because they know how to apply the techniques that are within their forms.

Sounds good to me

[Gaura]

You know, defending Sigung and his right to teach the way he sees fit or in the way that he professes to be "traditional" is noble as a student of his. I understand it.

However, I have been to quite a few tournaments (and, yes, participated in a number of them), and I have never seen a WL student (novice to expert) use mantis techniques. I've seen some consider it, but when the fists and feet start flying, it's a kick boxing match every time.

The problem with this, "It's my school, I'll teach as I see fit" perspective is that it is like unto sending a warrior off to battle with a plastic sword and a tin shield...when someone comes along with real armor and harmful intent...these kids, women and men are ilprepared --- and now, they're in real danger.

So, when a student comes to a Sifu and asks for instruction...when they are ready to learn and eager to learn and they are capable of learning..."hidden applications" or "you'll figure it out" or "go ask Sifu So-n-So" is detrimental...especially if you've already given them the responsibility of "Instructor". It goes back to finishing the job as a teacher. No, you don't spoon feed your students every little thing. You do stop holding their hands....but you will (or should) always be their guide. "Guidance" maybe becomes the practice, rather than "instruction".


...and a word on "Hidden Applications"....
Hidden applications are a farse...honestly, success or no, dead or no...there is no indefensible technique, so what's the point in keeping anything from your students? I can see no reason not to arm them with every possible defense...wouldn't you do that for your children?