legal contract needed for sparring?

[djh]

Hello,

I'm helping a mate with getting a Chow Gar school going in London and the classes are almost at a level where he would like to introduce sparring.

The things is, neither of us is a Sifu and if somebody loses a tooth there may be some duty of care issues that cause problems. Also, if some new guy goes nuts, neither of us are 100% confident of stopping somebody without using strikes etc that cause damage.

Our school is registered with the British Council for Chinese Martial Arts but my friend would be much more comfortable with something a little more precise in place eg a contract signed by students acknowledging the risk involved and waiving all rights to sue in case of injury.

Is this a simple document? Does anybody have a document they can send me that I can borrow copy from? Does it need to be witnessed by a Commissioner for Declarations or anything like that? Is it simply a matter of saying to people 'take part if you wish, sit out if you don't' (as has been the case in all other sparring stuff I've done in other SPM schools)? Am I worrying for no reason?

Any help much appreciated!

[David Jamieson]

check the laws of your land.

then draft up a waiver that must be signed by all people who intend to participate in any contact activities.

by all means retain a lawyer or do a lot of research first if you are that worried about it.

cheers

[Judge Pen]

Yes, see a lawyer (we need the business). Seriously there are some things that may not be waivable and the laws can differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It will be worth the money invested in the research and advice.

[X-Warrior]

Also check with your landlord or building insurer company. If you lease the space for your school you should talk to your landlord, his insurer might not allow such activities conducted inside the building becuase of the high risk of injury. If you own the place, you need to check with your own building insurance company and see what your options are. If something happens and someone sues you, your insurance company will most likely jump on you as well and add more to your fines - a lot usually :(.

I am in the U.S. though, your local laws in the UK are probably different but it never hurts checking on it.

-X-

[Serpent]

You've both got personal liability and professional indemnity insurance already, right?

[Eddie]

British law is very similar to SA law. Even though you do have a waver, it does not always stand up in court. The waver does give you some protection, but you do still stand the risk of being sued in most cases. Or at least give the plaintive the opportunity to sue you.

We have a waver on the door, in the entrance of the training area and on our application form, but as I said, this is just to keep you covered in some cases. I still have professional insurance, for in case I do get sued.

But, in SA law (I found out recently) the law states that the plaintive must proof that you were negligent or that you purposely caused injury to the client, and apparently it’s a very long process to do so. My insurance premium on the professional and public indemnity is less than R30 ($4.00)per month for more than R5 000 000 ($71 300.00) cover which shows you that if the insurance company is so confident, they don’t see the risk to be so great.

But the best thing is to call your lawyer to get more info. In most cases people join a martial arts school knowing the risks, and even that might count for you. Our school has been open 5 years and we train full contact fighting. In all this time (touch wood) we haven’t had any serious injuries thus far. The injuries we did have, was minor, and mostly due to the fighters’ own stupidity or negligence. Most students just leave it at that, clean the wounds, make peace with his sparring partner, and continuo to practice.

[djh]

"You've both got personal liability and professional indemnity insurance already, right?"

The 2 guys who are on the BCCMA books as official instructors do.

As for the rest of your posts, thanks very much for the info. I honestly thought it would be a simple matter of communicating the risk and getting a signature (and it has been treated as such in other schools I've trained in). I guess we at least know there's more to it now so can make a bit more of an informed decision (like how far the pot will stretch Vs lawyer fees in central London).

If it looks too costly and complicated though we may just keep the sparring within the trusted inner circle as it were... I'd take the word of a friend over what could happen in court even with legal protection.

Thanks all.

[mantis-1]

I thought those initials looked familiar........


tim

[djh]

Tim! How long has it been?!?! Gosh... must be at least 6 hours...

So what do you think? Anything you'd like to add to the discussion?

[mantis-1]

I did think at one time of adding a clause in the membership form but as people have mentioned I dont know how much that would stand up. If anything happened and it did come to legal matters would it hold any weight?

[Glimmer]

Hey fellow CG peoples,

Sparring would be a great thing indeed - at another school i attended we had to sign a form, stating that we were fully aware we could get hurt and which apparently took away our ability to sue. But it was pretty much a TKD school and everything was very low contact.

At the moment, if I took a clean shot in the eye (say through doi-jong or something) would the school insurance pay for any treatment?

p.s. Just out of interest, who is the first aid dude at our school?

Cheers,

Rich.

[mantis-1]

First aid........... dont you have some Dit Da Jow, even if your leg is falling off just rub it in...... even better DONT GET HIT.......

[Glimmer]

Aha...that northern macho wit ;)

I'm yet to pick up some dit dar, just comfrey oil at the moment and it seems to do the trick.

Seriously, if someone falls ill/sick or collapses during training, who is the official first aid rep? I believe das UK law requires MA instructors to be certified in a basic first aid course, or else someone must be present who is. For some reason I always thought it was you Tim, am I incorrect?

Edit - Just to return to the thread topic, a guy on another MA forum recommends this company for insurance:

www.sportscover.co.uk

They also reckon that the instructor should have full professional indemnity/Instrutor liability, and that everyone training must be proven to be aware of the dangers of training.

[vegas]

dude - i've got my st johns ambulance. sunny and i also have personal indemnity thru the bccma.

you can download the details of your insurance off the bccma website (link on w.londonkungfu.com). i would guess that you would have to be near death before they'd pay out too much. best thing is to train within the guidlines laid down and develop that bridge - that'll keep your eyes safe at least.

dave, thanx for the trouble - it's a bit of a tough call - i heard that even back in vegas they are only leg sparring now days because of the potential trouble. may have to keep the san do for the park mate.

too bad...

:-)

[Glimmer]

dude - i've got my st johns ambulance. sunny and i also have personal indemnity thru the bccma.

Nice one, I was just curious as I'm often in a state of near collapse when training:)

A bit of free-sparring would be good fun though!

[djh]

Originally posted by vegas
i heard that even back in vegas they are only leg sparring now days because of the potential trouble.

That's terrible news. Bloody hell... pretty much all of the injuries I've had/seen/caused have been from leg sparring.

So why are boxing/muay thai/mma clubs allowed to stay open then? There must be a legally safe way to do this.

I will continue my search...

[X-Warrior]

djh: you might also want to talk to any local schools, don't give up. Adding sparring to your program adds a great way of learning, there is no substitue for a good sparring as far as gaining knowledge. I am sure there are many schools around you conducting full contact sparring, might want to ask them what you need. I am in the U.S. and we also spar but I am not sure of the local laws. We also require to sign a waver but I don't know how much liability this still puts on the instructor in case of any major injuries. Regardless, sparring is allowed in the present of a certified full instructor.

Good luck, for sure check with other schools in your area.

-X-