kicking some butt

[Eric]

When you are doing chi sau or double lop sau double tan sau do you find yourself using kicks?.. Would you be able to defend against a kick or are you too busy concentrating your hand work?

The only reason I ask is that in the past, it seems like I am the only one that has thrown kicks. I don't really connect, I just bring the leg up and tap to let them know I am there. When I do this I have been told by the opponent (my senior by 3 years) "There is no kicking" which my sifu has overheard and immediately informs the student that kicking is allowed. Also, I have heard the same student asking how to watch for kicks. Which I assumed a student with 3 years of experience should already know.

Any experiences you have had or knowledge you can share would be great..

Eric

[Gluteus Maximus]

Hi Eric,

My thoughts are that maybe there shouldn't be any kicking until sensitivity is developed through chi sau to the point where you're able to feel changes in the opponent's energy indicating that they are preparing for a kick.

Max

"The force can be envisaged as cone-shaped". Tsui Seung Tin

[Gandolf269]

When we practice Lat Sau, we kick and are expected to block against kicks, using bong gerk and yap gerk. These kicks are low kicks (i.e. below the belt). I have not learned Chi Sau yet (I only been training for 6 months), but I don't think kicks are practiced during Chi Sau.

'...and China is still serving rice in Tibet!'

[Spark]

question ...

are you 'throwing' your kicks as a technique, or just throwing a kick? What I mean is, you throw a 'punch' ie lap da, tan da etc... in chi sau, I've been taught that you just don't throw a punch errantly. Have you been shown any kicking techniques for chi sau? If not, then I can't really see how it will benefit yours and your partners chi sau.

Later :)

[edward]

if your roll is really good, its nearly impossible to get a kick off

[Scott]

The point of exercises such as this is to LEARN. Although you can kick your senior, if neither of you are learning from it then you're just being annoying ;)

...

That's all I have in me.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[dzu]

Whenever I want to include kicking in chi sau I will ask my training partner if they agree to it. Since the targets are much more delicate when kicking, sometimes chi sau can escalate and ego's can become involved, especially if doing chi sau with someone you don't know very well.

On the other hand, the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit (oral traditions or sayings) state that "A kick does not miss" and "Every step is a kick, every kick is a step".

Following the guideline of the first saying, I try to kick only when I have the advantage and control of the opponent's center of gravity. In this way, I am assured that my kick will have full power because I am rooted and the opponent is in no position to counter. I can ensure this by controlling his center of gravity, being in a good position, and using the right timing to intercept. Aren't these the goals of chi sau anyways regardless of using hand or foot techniques?

The second saying indicates that every step I make should give me opportunity to kick. The same can be said in reverse; every kick I make is step to reposition myself. When I step in chi sau, I try to control my partner's leg with my own. Failing that, I strive to feel his center of gravity through my bridges so that if he does attempt a kick, I can nullify it by disrupting his structure.

So to answer your question: yes I do always kick in that I look for the same criteria regardless of whether I punch, kick, throw, or lock. Controlling my own center as well as my opponent's allows me to do whatever I want while protecting myself.

When I do work kicks explicitly into chi sau, I tend to focus on knees, really low shin kicks, and sweeps to control my partners legs. The shin kicks act as a substitute for knee kicks. If we are feeling really masochistic, we allow kicks to the inner thighs to simulate groin hits. By controlling his base I take away his power either through structural control or pain.


regards,

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 07-03-01 at 04:32 PM.]

[Eric]

The only kicks I will throw are knee level and below. I assume that this will help the senior student more than hinder his training. His sensitivity should be well enough to feel me go for the kick. Also he should be become aware that a kick could come at any moment. When I train with seniors (instructor level) I allow myself to be used as their training "puppet". I can learn by the way they react to me, I save the sensitivity training for the lower ranks. I will go after seniors as well as I can, and I am fast enough to tag most of them. I believe I am doing them a favor by using kicks and trying to tag them rather than just doing the same drills as normal with them. Some may say that it will not help my training, but hey, I am going to have plenty of time to train, why not try to help out a senior. The only real problem I have encounted is that one senior gets ****y because I can tag him with a kick. He will try to lock me up and when he does I will kick, it is just a natural move for me, my arms are locked so kick... I can overpower the lock no problem, and I can slip to the side and pull him past to get me out of the lock, but why do that when I can take out a leg.. We have been training kicks, I am no master I admit but I know enough to be able to get a kick in with out my seniors knowing that it is coming.

[Armin]

Hi guys!

Kicking in Chi-Sao. No bad idea. BUT: as long as you have to totally concentrate on your Chi-Sao (e. g. when getting started with it or when learning a new "drill"), than you shouldn't kick.

If both partners are more advanced there's no reason against kicking. IMO it will lead to one very important point: Your partner shouldn't feel the "kicking" in his hands, meaning the kick should be "shadowless" (most students pull their hands back when kicking).

And if both partners are able to kick without warning they should change from the "normal" Chi-Sao stance to "leg-contact", or else it would be nearly impossible to defend against the kick (a fast kick at this distance to the knee or the knuckle is practically undefendable!).


Greetings,

Armin.

[jameswebsteruk]

If you and your opponent have good lut sao de chung, there should be no opportunity whatsoever to kick when rolling. As soon as your leg is lifted, your opponent should be in, destroying your stance.

However, if you backs off even slightly, then your opponent can kick. If he can kick you when you are at chisao distance, you have bad lut sao de chung.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running
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