Yearly Mantis Event

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't mean to be making an end run around BTL closing the thread but I recall there was talk in the past about a yearly Mantis event. I know there is much interest but plans never seemed to materialize.

I jumped on the challenge as possibly the beginnings of such an event. Those who questioned the value of it had some good points. My thoughts were that it would be a fight fest, not the typical tournament you see in the states.

Maybe it shouldn't be restricted to Mantis (at least start mantis only to get everyone onboard before opening to others). Or it could be Mantis challenges all comers.

Of course there would be plenty of seminars and training opportunities.

Just kicking around ideas.

On a side note the concept of exchange vs challenges was brought up in the other thread. What is the tradition surrounding each?

[cerebus]

Mantis versus other styles would be interesting. Though there will never be a conclusive "superior style", I always find it interesting to see representatives of various styles using their arts in full-contact matches against each other.

[cerebus]

And I would also like to see Kai Uwe Pell actually back his words up with actions. I've seen him & his students constantly criticize and ridicule every vid clip that other members have posted, yet they never post any of their own action. Why is that?

[BeiTangLang]

Its not an end around unless you keep talking about a challenge,...

I have always been hoping for a nation-wide or even world-wide mantis meet. It would be interesting on all levels to say the least.
Mostly, I would hope to se a great exchange of knowledge in a forthright manner. This could not have happened just a generation ago. Maybe it still cannot, but I hope it can.

Cerebus, your comment on Pell is exactly why I closed that thread.

[sayloc]

I am still for sending a Mantis person to fight the k1, ultimate or somthing similar. Maybe the two sifu's could go there and fight other styles to show their stuff. If they are good they could win somee $$. If they do well it would be great for the style! Has anyone ever seen a mantis fighter compete in one of these fights? If so, how did they do?

I am all for a yearly mantis exchange, to learn. A fight fest sounds to much like a tough man contest. Not very respectable.

[18elders]

isn't there a mantis tournament in ohio every year?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I know there's an event in Ohio that seems to attrack a good number of Mantis people. Maybe we should pick one and everyone converge on it every year.

A fight fest might sound like a tough man contest but I think it's what's needed. Unfortunately in this country liability issues would shut it down or it would turn into JAKT (just another kung fu tournament). That's why Taiwan sounded appealing (plus I'd like to go there someday :D). After all, the bottom line is fighting isn't it? Where do the hardcore Mantis guys go to test their skills? They all talk a good game.

And you really don't have to hate the other guy to fight real hard. Consider it the ultimate exchange of information.

Ok, here's another idea. A 'Mantis Challenges All' event where Mantis never competes against Mantis. Other schools and styles are matched against different Mantis schools and styles in forms and fighting. Style against style like team competitions.

[Oso]

The Great Lakes Tourney is held every April (or so) in Cleveland.
I went there in 99 or 00 (dang, gettin old, can't remember exactly)
where I met several mantis sifu's and students.

I have spoken w/ yu shan about going to this next year.

There is light contact sparring, san shou and shuia jiao (can't ever remember how's that's spelled either)

so, plenty of opportunity for sparring for all. no death matches however ;)

I'm pretty sure Sifu Cottrell goes most years and could vouch for the quality of the event. Sifu John Ervin runs it and I think he does a very good job for such a large event.

What I'd like to see is something get started that would be more central to everyone. Not plugging yu shan's town but Nashville is pretty central and is big enough to draw people.

[MantisifuFW]

The Ohio tournament is not really a Tanglang event. What has happened in the past is that several Tanglang sifu of different lines got together and shared information, students touched hands in a friendly fashion or we compared forms and approaches to teaching. I will say that Sifu Irvin who runs the tournament has been willing to offer his school or reserve meeting rooms anytime we let him know that a group of us mantis people wished to get together. I am certain that he would do so in the future should a group of us commit to come.

Similarly, Sifu Kenneth Edwards' tournament in Calif. has always had a standing offer of a place for Tanglang people to get together and share information or train. Several times my students and I have met with other instructors there and shared information or trained together. Additionally Sifu Edwards was always very willing to bring his Eagle Claw folks to the meeting to train and share. He too is more than willing to help in any way if we let him know.

So there are people out there who would be happy to have us there at their events, will not try to take over in any sense and will let us do our thing.;)

I am open to trying a small get together and seeing if we can build on it in this part of the world. I fear that if we suddenly declared a national mantis get together with one person or group hosting it the numbers of people who would oppose it just because they were not in charge would probablly doom the event. Perhaps a smaller informal get together would be easier to attend.

Let me offer an example of building community. In the case of the Quarterly I had to build from a small group of instructors willing to support in subscriptions and articles. When I was sure I had enough to start, I did. There was at that time and remains to this day large groups of folks who oppose it simply because I am producing it though clearly everyone by now knows that I am not promoting myself or my approach to Tanglang in the publication.

Regardless, I continue to regularly send out copies for schools to review, contact instructors to see if their schools are interested. We get refusals a lot but it is a new idea and will take time. Over the past two years we have had surprising growth and the future of the Quarterly seems fairly solid. Some of those who were opposed to it have joined. I believe eventually others will too.

The growth of the Quarterly is, in a very material sense, a measure of the willingness of folks to commit to a sharing community. It costs the individual little and the school nothing but allows students to read perspectives on Tanglang from other lines and teachers without a filter. I believe that the groups that receive and support the Quarterly are most certainly those in favor of sharing. Many who spoke in favor of a Mantis publication in the past have yet to subscribe. It will be the same with a mantis meeting, many will talk about it and a percentage of them will get on board. In the case of the Quarterly, it was enough.

Anyway I have rambled enough I am sure. there is my two cents worth,

Steve Cottrell

[18elders]

it is a good idea but hard to get people together at the same time.
I find it odd that with a Master such as Master Shr coming to the US for seminars that more people wouldn't take advantage of it and come to the seminar. He is very open and will talk all night about kung fu and show you stuff, there are many heavy posters on KFM but the repsonse from them is little about coming.

So i think it would be difficult to get people together to support a yearly mantis event to exchange ideas and forms etc. amongst ourselves when people aren't willing to make the effort to attend a seminar with someone with Master Shr's knowledge.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm sure price has a lot to do with the weak response. Especially with high fuel prices and the cost of travel. While it may work out to a good deal when you look at the number of hours involved the overall cost is still pretty high. What can I say, times are tough.

It's the typical dilemma: high price, fewer people or low price, more people.

[18elders]

alot less expensive than going to china or taiwan!!



unfortunately i can't set the price, but believe me it will be well worth it.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

No offense to the City of Tampa but I think I'd rather visit Taiwan or China. :D

[MantisifuFW]

I thought I was done but 18elders has a good point. A this time, it is difficult to do a big event and gather people together. Even around seminars by well known and well respected sifu it is difficult.

I believe that the process will take place by networking and making contacts personally in small groups that will ultimately result in a mantis meeting nationally.

In the meantime, Oso's idea of getting together on any level sounds good to me!

Steve Cottrell

[yu shan]

A Taiwan trip sounds good to me, a country wide tour of beetle-nut stands! Anyway, Y-bor City in Tampa is fun.

Shr Zhengzhong`s visit to America would make a good story for the Mantis Quarterly, hope there will be a representative...hint hint.

I`ll attend with students and support whatever is organized, this is a good thing.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Like you said it will most likely start small and build from there. That's why I was looking at another event as a starting point. Maybe the event could be hosted at different schools each year. It's too short a notice but Pong Lai, Tampa could have been the first host with the upcoming seminar. Something to think about and the change of scenery each year would be nice.

Maybe a few of the bigger schools could get together on this and work something out.

[MantisifuFW]

HLL

Indeed, the meeting should not be the posession of any single group every year. It could be passed around and each year that group could work with the teachers to arrange the workshops, workouts, teacher's meetings, presentation of scholarly papers, etc.

Mantis108 had several great ideas in this vein. I have them written down for "future reference" ;)

Steve Cottrell

[Oso]

good point about passing it around.

even if everyone couldn't make every year due to distance/money there would be enough of an overlap each year for some continuity to be established.

or someplace neutral and not associated with any particular school or branch...like "hey, let's meet at the grand canyon this year'' or something like that...just thinkin' out loud...

i think the only solid criteria needs to be some good watering holes for post exchange libation. :D

[Neckbones]

I believe that Sifu Henry Chung has a tournement every year in Midland, Michigan. Mostly Mantis people, but I think all are welcome to join the event.

[MantisifuFW]

Gentlemen,

I just spoke to Sifu Erwin, (who is Sifu Henry Chung's student), on the phone about his place and he said that any of his three schools in and around Cleveland would be available for a mantis meeting or workshop the Friday, Saturday or Sunday of the tournament morning or evening, free of charge.

So Oso and Yushan, I will most definately be there with as many of my students as I can drag along.

I know that Sifu Henry Chung always supports Sifu Erwin's tournament but I don't know if he would be available for a mantis meeting. Perhaps someone could check. He is a VERY knowledgable sifu of the NPM style and would be great to talk to if possible. We'll see...

In the meantime anyone else interested?

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW


In the meantime anyone else interested?

Steve Cottrell

Yes me! But Ithink travelcosts are too expensive! :( Maybe next year, we´ll see!

[MantisifuFW]

German Bai Lung,

If this thing works out we will do some video of the meeting and send you a copy!

In the meantime I am still planning to come to Germany and finally visit you.

Please convey my greetings to your students and thank you for your support of the Quarterly!

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[puja]

Like GBL said, it's kind of expensive at the moment, but I've heard that there are low-cost (about 99,- Euro) tickets planned for routes between germany and usa for next year.
Anyway, I wish those of you who'll have the opportunity to attend that event the most of fun =)

best regards,

puja

[Oso]

GBL, the next one wouldn't be till April 2005. That's next year. :D

Sifu C, am I correct on that time frame?

[MantisifuFW]

Oso,

I believe that you are correct on that but I will check to make certain.

Puja, Cologne is one of the places I really want to visit when I come to Germany. I have Wing Chun friends there. I too am watching for the really cheap tickets and places to stay. I have far more desire to visit than money!
Steve Cottrell

[sayloc]

What about the Kou shou tournament in Baltimore? They would probably be open to let other mantis masters do seminars (I think they had some mantis seminars this year). I bet the mantis guys could even get a room or rooms just for mantis exchanges.

The Lei tai fighting can be very brutal (seems more so than the san shou) and it would give the taiwan and shang hai sifus or anyone else an opportunity to show their stuff.

It is one year away and now would be a good time to set it up and get cheap airfare.

They have people from all over the world attend and it is a very well run tournament.

Just a thought

[puja]

If the event would be next year, perhaps it'll be possible to get one of those cheap tickets, but as they as usual have limted contingents, one should book very early to get such a price. The later you book, the more you'll pay.

@Steve Cottrell:
Ya, Cologne is kind of full of Wing Chun (all spellings :D ) But many of them (like VC) are very commercialized. I don't know all of them, but who exactly do you know here?
If you are to get to Cologne, be sure to tell me and visit our school, too.

Best regards,

Puja

[yu shan]

Thanks for the heads up on Baltimore Sayloc. Ohio and Maryland sounds great! My people have lion hearts, no doubt, but they are poor. I would like to bring a team, but hey, atleast we have time to plan. Thank you for the information, keep `em coming

[sayloc]

Yushan

Here is a link to the Kou Shou Federation.

http://www.uskuoshu.org/usckf/front.htm


It is a year away, now would be the time to get things going . It would give the people time to plan and get cheap tickets.

Baltimore would probably be more interesteng for the out of US visitors and easier to get to than clevland.

You could also check out the Jow Ga Tournament in DC. It is also a year away. You my run into less politica problems at this one. Even easier to get to.

If anyone wants to promote their particular styles now is the time to do it.

[MantisifuFW]

The Maryland event sounds interesting to be sure equally so the one in D.C. Actually, if we do ever have a sizable international contingent, the D.C. one would be preferable to Maryland because it is the capital and international visitors would find that a great place to visit, especially if it is their first trip to the U.S. Just my opinion, but trying to build for an international gathering the first try might be reaching.

I could be completely wrong about this and I really want to hear from those who have done mantis meetings involving different styles in the past. I am open to hearing about their experiences so don't be shy.

There are lots of great places to meet as Oso has said. All have positives. However for a beginning place and probablly small group gathering, I would consider Ohio for the following reasons:


1. Sifu Erwin has actively supported mantis meetings in the past and has already offered school-sized training facitities and equipment for free. I think it would be a great place to start as he values our presence and as a mantis practitioner wants to see this happen.

2. The fact that it is not connected to any single teacher's seminar, it could be attended by people who could not afford the seminar's expense. (Even if not required it would be embarassing for some and reduce attendence).

3. Sifu Erwin has reaffirmed folks attending in no way had to be a part of the tournament. This was one reason why it was good to have it there in the past. Again, it allowed people without the money to attend, as observed by Yushan.

4. Meeting there has no organization's political baggage, as sayloc correctly mentioned, so there cannot be even the appearance of any group attemting to co-opt the meeting.

On to other topics for discussion:

I personally do not envision fighting at this first meeting, (at least as an official event but we can discuss this if anyone wishes). Instead, if the attendees wanted, I would assist with organization of events, presentations by instructors or performances by schools to ensure that we did more than meet and say, "Wow we made it. Now, how do you do mantis?" though I expect that a lot of this will go on. Instead it would be a chance for schools to perform, for instructors to present ideas on their approach to Tanglang and for students and instructors to meet, exchange ideas formally and informally and to network as it were.

Please understand that I am not putting myself in charge of things. Only that I have done mantis meetings in the past and have seen good one's and really really bad ones, (that I won't discuss to keep from embarassing anyone only try to help that we don't make the same mistakes). I would be happy to be the secretary for this one and someone else could do it next year if they want. If someone else wants this priveledge and the group wants them too, it is good by me and I will go back to my books and the Quarterly and hapily attend with fewer headaches.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I am very open to discussion at all points.

It is great to be discussing this again.
Steve Cottrell

[Oso]

just my .02

Sifu Erwin was immensely gracious to me personally when I met him and when I spoke to him concerning an issue I had with the way the sparring was run in my division. He would be a great host.

Sparring: As I said before, the GL Tourney has a broad spectrum of sparring options. I'm not sure of a need to try and get a 'mantis only' sparring event organized. If all of us who wanted to spar entered the tournament then we would only make the divisions larger and that would be better for us anyway. Plus, we would be supporting Sifu Erwin's efforts.

I, for one, would have no problems w/ Sifu Cottrell as ringmaster.
Should he be foolish enough to even want to take on the task. ;)


yu shan: the US Kuoshou Lei Tai is the format I fought in in march. I now have some of the headgear specific to that format and you will see that the #1 thing will be to put it on and fight with it a bunch before going to that venue. In a word: suxors. I won't excuse my efforts with the headgear but it sure didn't help matters any.

[MantisifuFW]

Oso,

Thank you for the vote of confidence. If others feel differently, I would not be offended. To get things started I will offer some ideas for what could be covered in such a meeting:

Now I know that if an instructor or individual from a group comes to the seminar they may not be able to fulfill all these. But I feel that they should be the goal for all groups attending. We have a year to prepare but most certainly exceptions can be made.

Introduction/ Demonstration: Each group does presentation of essential features of their style including important sets or paired exercises to demonstrate distinctives. (Time limit and parameters to be discussed). Every participating group should be involved.

Mini Seminars: Each group's chief instructor does a mini workshop on a element of their Tanglang for the participants. All participating groups should be involved. (Topics to be discussed as well as time limits).

Instructor's Colloqium:Each group's chief instructor would prepare and present position paper on an aspect of Tanglang. This would be presented in a session with other instructors and their assistants only so that material can be covered without having to explain to less experienced students. (No offense but this would be for the benefit of the instructors and allow for more efficient use of time, which will be limited).

I think that each group participating should present and contribute to each phase of the activity. Exceptions could be made on a case by case basis but I have seen mantis meetings in the past where one particular organization attended in number, watched, listened and learned a great deal and at the end, the chief instructor of this large group said, "Well we have all these theories and more but we don't share such things with outsiders". and they left...

So having seen this happen when the organizers simply had good will, I believe that there should be some advance preparation to ensure this is not the case now.

Anyway let me know what you think.

Steve Cottrell

[tanglangbaji]

I think this is all a great idea, but as usual we are forced to deal with the bone heads of the CMA. This forum has way too many ego problems, and childish rhetoric! I can only hope that we could filter out some of this if such an event was organized. Cottrell Laoshi and myself have spoken on this topic extensively in private and both of us would support anything!
I have made an attempt to strengthen the CMA community in general and the Mantis community specifically by hosting workshops and seminars here in New Mexico open to all. I have received great feedback and support, but we are talking about seminars, not a nationwide gathering.
I will do anything in my power to make something like this work. I think we need it, and imagine the impact we would have on the CMA world if us Mantis freaks could get together and unbiasly(?) share our wonderful art without p!ss!ng contests!

Jake

[MantisifuFW]

Just spoke with Sifu Mike Biggie in Ohio, he is onboard and will prep for presentation, mini seminar and colloquium. He is a strong WHF lineage practitioner so right now we have:

Yu Shan and Oso of Ponglai...Me and my group, mongrel that I am...Bajitanglang of meihua and Bajitanglang lineage. I have not heard from him yet but Shifu Wicker of Jon Funk's tanglang comes every year and I am sure would be up for it though I have not sprung it on him yet.

There are others not on the list that I can contact and see what come of it. I will keep you informed. If any of you guys can think of anyone, invite them!

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

The proposed program certainly looks great. I also think that setting up a committee to look into an agreeable platform of crossing hand for Mantis across the broad would help future development of Mantis. Another thing to look at is that each participating group gives a exhibition sparring/fight if they so wish. This way we could have solid ideas of the realistic threshold for "dangerous" techniques and perferred fighting range(s) specific to Tanglang. The committee can decide which sets of rules work best for the majority of practitioners or which set of specific techniques are consider permissable for scoring purposes. After that there should be a follow up work shop(s) to "educate" the potential participants about this format of crossing hand.

Just couple of thoughts.

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm currently in the middle of a potentially big change in my life so it's too early to say but if it works out I'll be able to attend more events like this. I'll certainly support whatever comes of these discussions in any way I can. I welcome the opportunity to give a clearer view of Wah Lum Kung Fu and maybe clear up some possible misconceptions people might have about the style.

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Again you have been able to see something that had eluded me, namely that we should begin the diaolgue on what should be the format for Tanglang fighting in the future. (BTW anyone who has input on this from experience within the Tanglang community either on the mainland or Taiwan or elsewhere PLEASE do feel free to provide input.

Thank you Mantis 108 for your assistance in this. (Also lest anyone get the wrong idea, Mantis 108 provided the guidelines for this kind of meeting long ago...)

Steve Cottrell

[B.Tunks]

Shifu Slawomir Milczarek of Poland has the traditional format for Tanglang Sanda competition and currently runs the best Tanglang free fighting bouts in the world. Please contact Piotrj who posts here to see if Shifu Milczarek is willing to pass on the rules applied at the various levels and format.

BT

[MantisifuFW]

Shifu Tunks,

Thank you, Shifu Milczarek has been a good friend, onboard with the Quarterly and always willing to help. I will contact him ASAP!

(No reinventing the wheel...no reinventing the wheel...)

STeve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Thanks for the heads up. In that case, the committee's work load would be cut in half already. It would be great to focus on familiarize with the traditional format. This can be accompanied by a exhibition fight. Then it is on to briefing the teacher, coaches, and referees. Finally, let the teachers and coaches to educate their representives.

Hope to hear from Sifu Cottrell on acquiring the format from the mainland group.

A personal thank you note to Sifu Cottrell for the recognition, support, oppotunities and most of all friendship that you have been given me. It would be wonderful to meet and shake your hand in person in the future.

Warm regards

Robert

[daohong]

maybe some practioners from china who normally post on this forum can give some insight about such a attempted meeting. We have heard from the USA, Germany, Canada Tawain.......

[MantisifuFW]

Daohong,

My experience with the mainland is that there are associations in each city made up of practitioners of many styles and that they work together to put on events, competitions, even put up memorials to their particular style's leaders. Actually it seemed that they have been able to put aside turf wars and style rivalries to a large degree. Perhaps this is because of their position in the community as coaches of athletes rather than as sifu and leaders of clans. They are often refered to as laoshr or teacher rather than shifu and all that comes with that position in a guild or martial family.

Just my thoughts on it. perhaps others can add more.

Regardless, the all mantis meeting seems to be on. I am contacting others not on this list and it looks like others will be joining. As I get more names I will let it be know. IN the meantime I would encourage other to consider this meeting.

Steve Cottrell

[shirkers1]

steve

I got a hold of mike as well and word is spreading pretty fast about the mantis get together. I'll be heading home to train next month, so hopefully I'll get some insight as to what mike has planned. We're all looking forward to attending and I think it will be a wonderful opportunity for everyone involved.

By chance are you attending the tourney in akron in october? I'm thinking of flying home for that as well just wondering if any one else was going to attend.


mark

[Michael Dasargo]

Sifu Cottrell,

Thank you for directing me to the forum. I support any and all postive actions towards the preservation of traditional wushu/Gongfu.

I am currently unaware of the exact dates for the next meeting (I recall only one meeting that we've had in the past). If the summer of 2005 is not too far away, then perhaps I may contribute to the effort.

I have only spoken of this project to my good friends B.Tunk(sito) and Tony Yeh.

I have recently established a non-profit organization known as The Kuoshu Union, whose sole purpose is to preserve and promote traditional martial culture.

Our first major project will be the "2005 Festival of Chinese Martial Culture", to held at San Diego State University during the summer of 2005. The festival is a non-profit event and will consist of competitive demonstrations (both Taolu and Yongfa), Lion Dance competition, historical booths, and seminars from Taoist Share K. Lew of Wong Lung Guan, Steve Martin of Mo Ga, and others TBA (such as Brendan Tunks).

Lodging will be an affordable $30.00 USD/night in the college dormes.

The event may be between 3-7 days in duration.

Perhaps this event will provide a hospitable venue for such a meeting. I propose a democratic meeting where a host guides the agenda with time limits per item. The final deadline for topics to be included in the agenda should be April of 2005. The items will be selected by volunteers within the commitee formed in this forum. The second item (first item being introductions) will be open to adding or deleting items to the agenda, and will be determined by vote.

Since this may be the first organized meeting, I suggest a general, broad range agenda for the first meeting to be concluded with specific agendas (such as competition formats) for the following meetings of the summit. If an item surpasses the time limt, a motion will be called for a seperate meeting for such item.

I believe a summit consisting of at least three conferences within one summit will prove to be beneficial to the productivity of the Mantis Boxing community.

Lastly, I will take no part in any efforts to prove skill superiority over others. I am but a track to pass on a message. Should anyone insist, I will consider such person a threat to my well being.

For more information about The Kuoshu Union please visit

www.KuoshuUnion.bigstep.com

Good luck to us all.

One family,
Sifu Dasargo
www.MantisSkills.com

[MantisifuFW]

List Members,

It seems that the majority of feedback I have received has been in favor of Ohio for the location of the first event.

As such, I will get with Sifu Ervin and get the facilities for Friday evening and night and perhaps for Sunday morning. All interested persons should prep to arrive in Cleveland in the early afternoon, 3-5pm and meet at the to-be-designated school site there by 6:00pm. Saturday we can have for watching sanshou and partying and such...or doing more Gongfu!

We have a year so it should not be that difficult! Please all interested parties contact me ASAP.

Steve Cottrell