On strategy and warrior spirit

[AmanuJRY]

This comes from Ernie's suggestion to start a topic for this and my belief that it is an excellent pair of subjects.

senario #1:

You are cornered in a parking garage by four guys bent on hurting you bad, what is your strategy? What is your spirit?

Strategy- Do you immediatly start looking at stances, body positioning, and at the eyes for signs of uncertainty, fear, or determination as you manuver your body into a position to face only one opponent at a time? Or do you jump at the closest guy and proceed to attempt to send him to the hospital in order to strike fear into the rest of them?


Spirit- Do you give in to the idea that you are going to get smashed by these overwhelming odds? Or do you go into berzerker mode? Or do you approach it without concern as to what may or may not happen?


Please feel free to respond or introduce new senarios or debate the nessesity of strategy or warrior spirit.

[sihing]

well, looking at this scenerio from the comfort of my living room, lol, and personally never having been in this type of situation(luck I guess), I would have to look at this in a logical fashion and try to sum up all the possible scenerioes that could happen. First of all, I would try desperately to find a escape, and if that means taking out the first guy hard to try a create a hole and run through it, then fine. Odds are odds right, 4 on 1. If that was not a possibility then I would have to try my best to remain calm, but at the sametime pump myself up to get ready for a fight, giving in would not be a option and if these thoughts entered my mind I would immediately get rid of them somehow. Technique/strategy wise I wouldn't be thinking about these types of things, I know already that these things are in me by now(better be, its been almost 16yrs). One strategy for sure is to try and put one attacker in front of the others. I would also have no problem in using my fingers or breakin bones when the odds are so low in my favor. All targets are legit, and any and all tactics would be used to find a way out, finding a make shift weapon, spitting, distracting them by whatever means, etc...Knowing myself well, I would for sure try to escape once the opportunity arose, so when 4 on 1 turns into 2 on 1 then I have more chance to escape. Staying on to fight the rest IMO is just a ego thing, and wouldn't be recommended.


Sihing

[mortal]

Act afraid and when they get close suddenly punch the biggest most threatening one in the face with everything you have.

[AmanuJRY]

"There is no need to wait for the enemy to start combat. You go into the attack and if the enemy decides to go in at the same time then you must be quicker, more focused, and more resolved. It is essential that you go into the attack with your body leading your hands and feet. You achieve this by having a more determined attitude and a stronger spirit. Have no preconceived ideas about how a situation should come out. Go in to the alttack with the attitude of destroying the enemy and you surely will if your spirit is up to the occasion and your heart is into the matter and you do not fear the possibility of being hurt in the exchange. Press in hard with you body, shout whith force and authority, and let your hads come from nowhere to destroy the enemy."

Miyamoto Musashi - as traslated by Stephen F. Kaufman

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by sihing
well, looking at this scenerio from the comfort of my living room, lol, and personally never having been in this type of situation(luck I guess), I would have to look at this in a logical fashion and try to sum up all the possible scenerioes that could happen.

Few have the ability to speak from experience. What you say here is the first step in strategy.




Originally posted by sihing
Technique/strategy wise I wouldn't be thinking about these types of things, I know already that these things are in me by now(better be, its been almost 16yrs).

On technique, yes, but for strategy it is subjective to the senario, and since you can't ever know what to do in all situations, strategy needs to be adaptive and is always in a state of begining.




Originally posted by sihing
One strategy for sure is to try and put one attacker in front of the others. I would also have no problem in using my fingers or breakin bones when the odds are so low in my favor. All targets are legit, and any and all tactics would be used to find a way out, finding a make shift weapon, spitting, distracting them by whatever means, etc...Knowing myself well, I would for sure try to escape once the opportunity arose, so when 4 on 1 turns into 2 on 1 then I have more chance to escape. Staying on to fight the rest IMO is just a ego thing, and wouldn't be recommended.

Sihing

This is, of course, if they give you the opportunity to escape. Otherwise you have no choice but to fight to the last guy, and in that sense it isn't an ego thing.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I think Jackie handled himself very well in a similar situation in "Rumble In The Bronx". ;)

Using a car antaena as a weapon might not be a bad strategy if there is enough time to secure it before they swarm on you. You might be able to back them up enough to clear a path for you to run to safety.

Even better if you have time to get in your car and drive straight at them. :)

[Ernie]

4 on 1
Well I have done a lot of training with 3 on 1 and weapons, so first and for most, I would control distance if I could, I trust my foot work and I trust my conditioning
I’m quicker then most, because I have trained it and I can hit on the fly, try and get the slow one [and there will be a slow one] between you and the others. One of my favorite things to do is pop a dude with a nice low shot to the stomach this slows him up, and I would pot shot and fake, juke, and try and create some day light and just get Jesse Owens on there a$$.

What I wouldn’t do is turn my focus on one person and escalate the violence level with a blast of punches, why simple, to much time not taking everything in and if you turn up the violence to that level and don’t get out it will come right back to you, cause and effect



I have been jumped more then once and know from experience, an old school shoe job sucks

[AmanuJRY]

I just LOVE the term 'shoe job' it makes me giggle inside.:D

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
Using a car antaena as a weapon might not be a bad strategy if there is enough time to secure it before they swarm on you. You might be able to back them up enough to clear a path for you to run to safety.

"You must study with the idea in mind of being able to function in any situation wiht any weapon. If you study hard and understand the properties of all weapons, they may be used effectively in any situation.......As new weapons are developed they should also be studied with the proper intent of the warrior, which is to master strategy." - Miyamoto Musashi - as traslated by Stephen F. Kaufman

[anerlich]

I'd encourage everyone concerned with these matters to read or re-read "Strong on Defense" and "Watch my Back", especially the former.

Some of the ideas in SOD are summarised in the "Surviving Violent Crime" link in my .sig. (whoops - my ISP seems to have made a hash of this somehow :( )

Martial skill is probably one of the least important considerations in surviving a criminal attack.

[AmanuJRY]

I'm getting a broken link from you sig.

[sihing]

If Martial skill is not even a important consideration, then what is? Obviously one would want to avoid any type of circumstance that would get you into a situation like this, so awareness of surroundings is always important, especially in strange areas, but once the situation has arrived and escape is not a option at the moment then, Martial Skill may be the ONLY thing of consideration.
Of course will still have to be careful too when the confrontation begins, like warning the attackers of your martial skill would not be recommended, I'd rather surprise them and let them find out for themselves. As soon as the opening would arise then, I would attempt a escape, I have no problem running when the situation is as serious as this...

Sihing

[AmanuJRY]

I agree, but it is more often that martial skill is developed and preparation for the stress caused by the attack is overlooked. When you are not prepared to psychologically and emotionally deal with the situation all the martial training in the world can't help you, but if you are prepared psychologically and emotionally and only have limited martial training you are way better off.

[anerlich]

If Martial skill is not even a important consideration, then what is?

The answers are ... in the book!

[anerlich]

I'm getting a broken link from you sig.

Yeah, looks like my ISP has done a "site upgrade" recently :mad:

[AmanuJRY]

"Although doctrine, strategy, and tactics are different concepts, the warrior's choice of a doctrine has a very direct effect on the strategies he will develop and the tactics he will use in combat."

Forrest E. Morgan


...just throwin' stuff out there.

[sihing]

Quote: AmanuJRY
"When you are not prepared to psychologically and emotionally deal with the situation all the martial training in the world can't help you, but if you are prepared psychologically and emotionally and only have limited martial training you are way better off."

I would think this would be taught simultaneously with the physical MA training? For me Kung-fu is more than just mimicking a bunch of movements from an instructor, it’s a spiritual, emotional and lastly a physical journey of self discovery. When practicing one has to put all these things into the equation and train from that perspective, realism.

Sihing

[anerlich]

The links to my personal website (surviving violent crime and TCM) appear to be working again now. Discussion is invited.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by sihing
I would think this would be taught simultaneously with the physical MA training? For me Kung-fu is more than just mimicking a bunch of movements from an instructor, it’s a spiritual, emotional and lastly a physical journey of self discovery. When practicing one has to put all these things into the equation and train from that perspective, realism.

Sihing

It should be, but not always is......
From my perspective it is...............
and last but not at all least...........Realism.

'nuff said. Good post sihing.:)

[AmanuJRY]

"What enables the wise sovereign and the good gerneral to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge."

Sun Tzu, the Art of War.

[t_niehoff]

I don't like hypothetical "fighting scenario what-if's" because they often assume that there is "an answer", some piece of knowledge that will save you or make you able to deal with that situation (common nonfighter thinking). In reality, success, however you define that, depends on your physical prowess (attributes-and-skill cluster), experience, ability to improvise on-the-spot, etc. So my advice is to work on those things and then you'll be best prepared for "broken-field running" (any scenario that should pop up).

The number one determinative factor most often in fights (excluding surprise attacks) is simply the condition of the participants. Typically, the better conditioned fighter wins. When that becomes more or less equal, skill becomes a more significant factor. So, ask yourself: are you in good shape? If not, you won't have much of a chance against someone that is. Look at any BJJ school, boxing gym, muay thai academy, etc. -- any place where they fight -- and look at the condition/shape of the folks there. There is a reason they all are in good shape. Compare to the people who frequent many WCK schools, tai ji schools, etc. where they don't fight.

How does one get into good fighting shape/condition? Principally by fighting (yes, there are plenty of supplemental exercises that help but nothing replaces the fighting). What develops the mindset of being able to soak up punishment and keep going? Guess. (I'm not saying our goal is to develop a strategy of soaking up punishment -- it's not -- but if you fight, the odds are that you will take some and if you haven't learned to mentally and physically deal with it in the gym or the mats or the kwoon, you won't have it when you fight).

How do you face a 4 on 1 fight? -- by being in great shape, by having developed good fighting skills and attributes (by fighting), by perhaps having experience with similar situations, by being able to soak up some punishment (which will come your way) and keep going, and by having the presence of mind to improvise -- all of which comes from being familiar and accustomed to working in a fighting environment. In other words, your best chance in a fight comes from having trained to be a good fighter.

You can come up with all kinds of "swimming scenarios" -- rough seas, whirlpool, flood, riptide, etc. and the answer is: your best chance is first and foremost to be a good swimmer. Sure each situation may demand something "extra" but it all relies on your being able to swim well.

Regards,

Terence

[AmanuJRY]

Terrance,

I cannot disagree with anything you said.

But, the concept of the senario, in an online forum or in practice, is not to define a specific approach to a specific situation, but to train the ability to apply a general approach in any number of random situations. In other words it is to exercise one's ability to improvise on-the-spot.

And there is an answer that will make you able to deal with that situation, it's called being prepared. Prepared to deal with psychlogical and emotional stress. Prepared to deal with the physical demands. Prepared to deal with strategic obsticals. That is the answer.

Warrior spirit and strategy are equally as important as physical conditioning.

[t_niehoff]

Warrior spirit and strategy are equally as important as physical conditioning.

**My problem with terms like "warrior spirit" is that folks that aren't warriors, except in their own fantasies, use them to make themselves feel good about themselves ("I'm a warrior! And will prove it should the need arise."). Rather than be concerned with "warrior spirit", just be a d@mn warrior -- a fighter. Not in your imagination, but in practice.

**And everything depends upon conditioning -- you can't enact a strategy if you're too exhausted to move. Experience will show you that one quickly.

Terence

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**My problem with terms like "warrior spirit" is that folks that aren't warriors, except in their own fantasies, use them to make themselves feel good about themselves ("I'm a warrior! And will prove it should the need arise."). Rather than be concerned with "warrior spirit", just be a d@mn warrior -- a fighter. Not in your imagination, but in practice.

Warrior spirit is something that is cultivated through practice not just a thought that you believe you can call upon in moment of crisis.
The book 'Living the Martial Way' by Forrest E. Morgan covers this subject both completly and very well.



Originally posted by t_niehoff
**And everything depends upon conditioning -- you can't enact a strategy if you're too exhausted to move. Experience will show you that one quickly.

That is why I said they are equally important, I believe experience will show you that as well.

[anerlich]

If you can't put enough effort and discipline into training to reach and maintain a good standard of athletic fitness, then you can claim little in the way of "warrior spirit", IMO.

Also since you are according to some statistics about 100000 times more likely to die of lifestyle related heart problems than as a result of an assault, ignoring basic fitness and concentrating on - what? - seems to be poor setting of priorities.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Physical conditioning helps BUILD warrrior spirit.......

Q: How do you learn to persevere when you are tired, stressed, and experiencing pain??

A: By putting yourself in controlled situations where you routinely experience increasing levels of tiredness, stress, and discomfort / pain........(Like lifting weights, hard calisthenics, intense stretching, and performing serious cardio exercise, for example.)

[AmanuJRY]

"...a ritual observed in some way, shape, or form by every warrior society in the world. It involves hardening the spirit through severe training or some extreme physical test. The ritual takes different forms in different cultures, but they all have a common element: the warrior drives himself, or is driven, to a level of endurance beyond what he previously believed possible. The experience is both grueling and frightening, but the warrior emerges from the ordeal feeling purified. One who has experienced this kind of training is never quite the same afterwords.
The samuri called this regimen of severe training shugyo..."

Forrest E. Morgan

[Ernie]

‘’ Now baby the good book tells us to turn the other cheek and forgive, ……..
But if any one has the audacity to lay hands on you, by all means
[YOU BREAK YOUR FOOT OFF IN THERE A$$ SO HARD IT KNOCK’S THEM FLAT ON THERE BACK’S!!!!!!!!]
Now come here and give grandma a hug



MY Ghetto A$$ grandma :D

[AmanuJRY]

I see, so when someone smites thee, you turn the other cheek.....and contiue on around with a spinning backfist.:D

[AmanuJRY]

"A small man can beat a much larger man and one man can beat many men in a fight. Allow your wisdom to develop by constantly striving to perfect yourself in your own art and by understanding the arts of others. When you understand yourself and you understand the enemy you cannot be defeated."

Musashi (again:rolleyes:...I love Musashi).

[AmanuJRY]

Would you approach a fight with a larger opponent the same as one with a smaller opponent?

Does your strategy change if you know your opponent's skill level?

How does environment affect your strategy?

[LittleTiger]

I once had trouble with 3 guys. My initial reaction was to try to talk my way out of trouble but when I saw it wouldn't work I went berserk and hit the biggest mouth 1st when he wasn't expecting it.
The 2 others were surprised too and I took another out before they could react. Then the last one ran away.
It all happened very fast : I hit the 1st one in the nose with my head then kicked the 2nd one in the knee with a side kick.
They were both laying on the ground but I didn't stay to see how they were, too much trouble with the cops or justice if they sue me after their hospital trip.

Another time there was 3 guys too but I had a butterfly knife on me, they all ran away when I took it out to fight them.

I would react the same with more than 3. Talk first, if it doesn't work then fight to injure or kill, it's them or me.
I never ran, I don't think I ever will, especially if I'm not alone (like with friends or family).

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY


senario #1:

You are cornered in a parking garage by four guys bent on hurting you bad, what is your strategy? What is your spirit?

Strategy- Do you immediatly start looking at stances, body positioning, and at the eyes for signs of uncertainty, fear, or determination as you manuver your body into a position to face only one opponent at a time? Or do you jump at the closest guy and proceed to attempt to send him to the hospital in order to strike fear into the rest of them?


Spirit- Do you give in to the idea that you are going to get smashed by these overwhelming odds? Or do you go into berzerker mode? Or do you approach it without concern as to what may or may not happen?




Thus, I have heard from my friends in Asia....

if one was attacked, people starts to chop with bucher knives ect before one knows what is going on.

Thus, the daily pratice or the auto-pilot takes over---- cover one's head and neck , expect punches and kicks and knees flying all over..... Rush throught the barrier to some where safe..!
forget about your WCK or BJJ...ect or thinking. if you dont want to get kill . If one wants to survive.

What one trained daily and for how much the training, one has applied here. So, just accept as it is. Tryng to think? one lost. the key is rush out and run away to a safe place.



Stratergy? spirit? that is great ideas but do you have time for it?


Get attack in the elevator? hahahaha, how good your woodern dummy auto pilot practice :D BTW cover your head too with the Yang side of your arms not the YING side. remember.:D

There is no warrior. Dont go to dangerous dark place, run.

going down to ground? wait a guy smash your head and drop you with brick or ect... when you think you mount pin or nail a guy down.

There are different type of fightings. fighting for fighting and there is fighting for real survival. Dont get that mix up.

How far one's fighting train's one?


In fact, when I was young.

A judo champion in where I went for high school was killed at a kidnap. So, people know this guy is tough. And they bring more people in to kidnap him, increase the doze of drug to suffocate him....

another shao lin Sifu who help me to heal my arm fracture was beating up a guy who stole his stuffs. That guy get more guys and ambush him. He died.


Dont be a warrior. Be safe just be a coward. And avoid accident from what one think is an innocent fighting.

just some crazy dreaming drunken thoughts. Dont take me serious!

[AmanuJRY]

Once again your post wanders off into la-la land, Hendrik.

"Be safe just be a coward."

I don't consider running from an outnumbered attack to be an act of cowardice. A safe move? Yes.

I equate cowardice with the fact that someone needs cohorts to help him 'beat down' one other guy.


And avoid accident from what one think is an innocent fighting.

Innocent fighting?

Can anyone explain to me the nature of this paradox?


There are different type of fightings. fighting for fighting and there is fighting for real survival. Dont get that mix up.

There are two kinds; sport and survival/self protection. Sport has rules or agreements made before the fight (sporting, sparring, even challenge fights might fall under this kind of fight), survival, as we all know, is anything goes cause it's a matter of life/death or serious injury. How could I possibly get them mixed up.


Thus, the daily pratice or the auto-pilot takes over

My body did not come equipped with an auto pilot. It's manual operation only.


cover one's head and neck , expect punches and kicks and knees flying all over..... Rush throught the barrier to some where safe..!..... forget about your WCK or BJJ...ect or thinking. if you dont want to get kill . If one wants to survive.

:( I take it Hendrik you have never played any sports in where you had to run past linemen or people waiting to jump you. Do yourself a favor and play a couple of seasons of some decent Rugby, then tell me to just 'rush through the barrier to somewhere safe'. The idea is that training will help me get through the 'barrier'.;)


Stratergy? spirit? that is great ideas but do you have time for it?

Planning and purpose? Do you have time for them?