The Boxer Rebellion

[Dim Wit Mak]

Years ago I read that the "Boxers" of 1900 fame entered the famous rebellion having many kung fu styles. Some didn't know any kung fu, and there was an attempt by the leaders to take some of the most direct and easiest to learn techiniques from many different styles and teach this as a new system. In the article, the style that was formed was given a name, but I don't remember what it was. Can anyone enlighten me as to what it was called, and if it is still taught and practiced? Thanks in advance.

[Shaolinlueb]

hmm i would like some more info on this too. anyone?

[Dim Wit Mak]

Shaolinlueb: I know the article was in the magazine which is the rival to the one that sponsors this forum, but I can't find it anywhere.

[Mr Punch]

Wing Chump. It's practised everywhere... :D

but not in my school of course... :rolleyes:

I don't have one!:p

[IronFist]

I thought the boxer rebellion was when all those kung fu guys got owned by guns?

[SifuAbel]

Uh, not that simple. It was a brutal fight that they eventually lost. And, it was more than one battle on more than one day.

[Dim Wit Mak]

If the history books are to be believed (and I'm not sure that is true), one of the biggest lies of this historical event was where the leaders told the rank and file that magical talismans would protect them from gunfire. I have read that these leaders even had their homies fire blanks at them to "prove" their claims.

I don't suppose this was any different than the lies that were told to sailors during World War II about the effectiveness of the "shark repellent" they were issued. I understand that the powers that be knew it was about as effective as Gillette shaving cream, but it gave the sailors some peace of mind before Jaws had them for lunch. I guess all of us have to be aware to keep from being a gullible chump.

[Mr Punch]

Well I've never heard of a shark eating Gillette shaving foam. :D


Apart from the amulet thing, the boxers were no heros either. Most of them were just bands of rapists, bandits and gangsters wandering the country trying to jump on the anti-British rule bandwagon and tricking some people into joining them on that pretext before more lies and extortion. Bit like the Bush administration and the War on Terror (uh-oh, there goes this thread! :D ) or, er, many modern MA 'teachers'.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/BOXER.HTM

The Boxers, or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists," were a religious society that had originally rebelled against the imperial government in Shantung in 1898. They practiced an animistic magic of rituals and spells which they believed made them impervious to bullets and pain. The Boxers believed that the expulsion of foreign devils would magically renew Chinese society and begin a new golden age. Much of their discontent, however, was focussed on the economic scarcity of the 1890's. They were a passionate and confident group, full of contempt for authority and violent emotions.

[Ren Blade]

It sounds like the White Lotus Clan from Once Upon A Time In China 2. Is that what these group of characters from the movie were based upon, the boxers of the rebellion or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists"?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
It sounds like the White Lotus Clan from Once Upon A Time In China 2. Is that what these group of characters from the movie were based upon, the boxers of the rebellion or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists"?


The White Lotus would again make an appearance in the 1890s. A branch sect called the I Ho Ch’uan (Fists in the Name of Harmony and Justice) began a serious anti- foreigner rebellion in response to the humiliations suffered by China at the hands of European and American powers. The Europeans would later call this band of rebels the Boxers.

http://www.ibiblio.org/chinesehistory/contents/c11sa03.html

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
It sounds like the White Lotus Clan from Once Upon A Time In China 2. Is that what these group of characters from the movie were based upon, the boxers of the rebellion or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists"?

Yep. And as I understand it (which is a big disclaimer) Wong Fei Hung was opposed to the foreign occupation of China, but believed that the secret societies were making the problem worse rather than better. Could be wrong about that though.

I don't think the boxers had a particular brand of fu though, Dim Wit Mak. I don't think style had a whole lot to do with it really. It had more to do with the "magical" amulets and wards. Convincing an uneducated populace that they would be protected if they rose up and fought back. I think it had more to do with control than with style.

And whether you believe the history books or no, one thing is clear. They lost. That's not a slight against individual brave Chinese though. It's simply that they were outclassed.

Again, though, I'm no historian.


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by apoweyn
It's simply that they were outclassed. They lost, but I don't think they were outclassed. I find it hard to assign 'class' to a group of countries that intentionally created a nation of drug addicts and murdered 200,000 people in the name of colonialism.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
They lost, but I don't think they were outclassed. I find it hard to assign 'class' to a group of countries that intentionally created a nation of drug addicts and murdered 200,000 people in the name of colonialism.

For crying out loud, Masterkiller. Don't make me pull the dictionary quote trick. You know as well as I do that that's not what "outclassed" means. Semantic arguments make the baby Jesus cry.

Pedantry aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your point. Indenturing one nation (India) to produce narcotics to hook another nation on (China) just so you'll have something to trade for what they've got is low class.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

yeah Ap, just because your parents are british doesn't mean you get to stomp all over the other people of the world an dtheir rights. You can' t just imply that Indians are a lower class then the brits, just cause their skin is different or they aren't edumacated like the brits. Jeeze, the elitism flying around this forum is insane! ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Semantic arguments make the baby Jesus cry.That's not what Mel Gibson says.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's not what Mel Gibson says.

And you trust him?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
yeah Ap, just because your parents are british doesn't mean you get to stomp all over the other people of the world an dtheir rights. You can' t just imply that Indians are a lower class then the brits, just cause their skin is different or they aren't edumacated like the brits. Jeeze, the elitism flying around this forum is insane! ;)

My parents are British, huh? I'll have you know that I was born and raised to the age of 10 in Great Britain, thank you very much. Brackley, Northamptonshire. :D

But yeah, there's not a whole lot to recommend the Empire's behavior in India and China. :(

[red5angel]

oh yeah MY PARENTs are british, never mind you smarmy brit!

[norther practitioner]

I'll have you know that I was born and raised to the age of 10 in Great Britain

Explains why you can be such a pansy :eek: :p


thank you very much

You are very welcome.



As far as the style is concerned, I have no idea, but I'll put hung gar out there.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
oh yeah MY PARENTs are british, never mind you smarmy brit!

Originally posted by apoweyn
My parents are British, huh? I'll have you know that I was born and raised to the age of 10 in Great Britain, thank you very much. Brackley, Northamptonshire.
My grandparents moved here from Scotland. Now I have two reasons to clobber both of you.

[red5angel]

that practically makes us brothers MK. My family descends from Scottish border reavers but eventually took jobs as landsmen and caretakers in wales and Brittain. Down with the MAN!!!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
that practically makes us brothers MK. My family descends from Scottish border reavers but eventually took jobs as landsmen and caretakers in wales and Brittain. Down with the MAN!!! Yeah, Mel Gibson hates England, too. Coincidence? I think not!

[Vash]

Scotland kicks @$$. Britain suxors it. Coincidence?

[kwaichang kaned]

Whilst not my favorite subject of all time.

Scotland IS part of Britain. The British Isles

I think you may be confusing Britain with England.

And NOBODY likes England.

(to the tune of "we are sailing")

No one likes us
No one likes us
No one likes us
WE DON'T CARE

[apoweyn]

Explains why you can be such a pansy

And yet completely fails to excuse it. :)

[Ben Gash]

Oh dear :rolleyes: Where do we start? :eek:
OK, as I have already stated on another thread (and admittedly has been more than hinted at here) the boxers (on the whole) were not martial artists. They were what are known as "spirit boxers", who believed that they were possessed by totem spirits, and this would make them impervious to gunfire.
Second, why are the Brits getting bashed here? The British empire didn't rule china, it ruled Hong Kong (which was nowhere near the rebellion).Yes, the opium wars were a dark stain on our history, but was it really any worse than enslaving people in their thousands and forcing them to build a railway in concentration camp conditions? (pot/kettle). The USA, Portugal and Germany were all caught up in the boxer rebellion.
As for the Empire, yes there were bad things about it, but there were good things as well. I mean, India and Hong Kong were both under such liberal, tolerant, politically free regimes beforehand. Also, incidentally, they were ruled by a non-indigenous ruling class :rolleyes: who had empires themselves.
Yes, Mel Gibson does appear to hate the English. Try reading a history book instead. William Wallace was a decidedly wealthy landowner who didn't like paying tax, and the average Scottish peasant was no worse off than the average English peasant (except that the English peasant had to worry about being massacred by the Scots)

[Ben Gash]

NP, loads of Hung Gar in Shandong ;)

[red5angel]

Ben, it's all tongue in cheek really. My mom's a brit, Ap is apparently a brit, so somehow we are al mostly or atleast related to some limey somewhere ;)
If we wanted to bash someone for real I'd say we'd be bashing Spain, they suck.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Yes, the opium wars were a dark stain on our history, but was it really any worse than enslaving people in their thousands and forcing them to build a railway in concentration camp conditions? (pot/kettle). The USA, Portugal and Germany were all caught up in the boxer rebellion. Yeah, that's why I said Group of Countries.


As for the Empire, yes there were bad things about it, but there were good things as well. I mean, India and Hong Kong were both under such liberal, tolerant, politically free regimes beforehand. Also, incidentally, they were ruled by a non-indigenous ruling class :rolleyes: who had empires themselves.Okaaaaaaay.


Yes, Mel Gibson does appear to hate the English. Try reading a history book instead. William Wallace was a decidedly wealthy landowner who didn't like paying tax, and the average Scottish peasant was no worse off than the average English peasant (except that the English peasant had to worry about being massacred by the Scots) Mel Gibson doesn't think Southern styles are very practical. He prefers higher stances and long power.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Oh dear :rolleyes: Where do we start? :eek:
OK, as I have already stated on another thread (and admittedly has been more than hinted at here) the boxers (on the whole) were not martial artists. They were what are known as "spirit boxers", who believed that they were possessed by totem spirits, and this would make them impervious to gunfire.

That's what I'd understood as well. Which is why I said that the rebellion was less about a martial arts style than about controlling a populace.


Second, why are the Brits getting bashed here? The British empire didn't rule china, it ruled Hong Kong (which was nowhere near the rebellion).Yes, the opium wars were a dark stain on our history, but was it really any worse than enslaving people in their thousands and forcing them to build a railway in concentration camp conditions? (pot/kettle). The USA, Portugal and Germany were all caught up in the boxer rebellion.
As for the Empire, yes there were bad things about it, but there were good things as well. I mean, India and Hong Kong were both under such liberal, tolerant, politically free regimes beforehand. Also, incidentally, they were ruled by a non-indigenous ruling class :rolleyes: who had empires themselves.
Yes, Mel Gibson does appear to hate the English. Try reading a history book instead. William Wallace was a decidedly wealthy landowner who didn't like paying tax, and the average Scottish peasant was no worse off than the average English peasant (except that the English peasant had to worry about being massacred by the Scots)

Well, personally, I said that there wasn't much to recommend Britain's behavior in India and China. The fact that other groups have done similar things doesn't really change that.

That said, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not bashing Great Britain. I'm proud of what little British I can still claim.


Stuart B.

[Dim Wit Mak]

It's hard for me to believe that there wasn't a concerted effort to teach some rudimentary kung fu to the "Boxers". I have seen old film clips of these guys practicing with swords, and doing what are obvious kung fu movements. I'm not saying they were dedicated martial artists, but they were called "Boxers" by the Europeans, because they observed these movements and the "White Devils" didn't have any idea what "kung fu" was. Of course, there was a lot of magic and superstition connected with it, but I really believe, that simple kung fu was taught on a rather large scale. I don't want to be obstinate, but the finger seems to point in that direction.

It would be interesting to get ahold of some primary sources, i.e. letters or telegrams written by the beseiged foreigners and read their first hand accounts. Amid the accounts of horror, there has to be attempted descriptions of how they fought. At any rate, since that is the limit of my knowledge, I'll just put my comments to rest with this post.

[apoweyn]

I don't think anybody is disputing that they were taught some basic martial arts. I think the point that people are trying to make is that those martial arts were a fairly minor variable amid many other variables (nationalism, lack of education, manipulation of the masses, faith, etc.).

As for specific styles, I'd guess that people learned whatever was readily available to them. And that there wasn't one specific Boxer Rebellion style. (And frankly, would you really want to learn it if there were? They got gunned down. And guns have gotten more advanced since then. Not less so.)

Edit: The above was somewhat tongue in cheek. Firearms will ruin anybody's day. Style be ****ed.

Edit again: Style be gosh darned. :rolleyes:

All that said, I seem to recall something about hung gar and about their characteristic hand formation (the kiu sau or something) being used as a "secret handshake" to other society members or something like that. But be careful. That could just be over-romanticized (or misremembered) rubbish. I'm not historian enough to know for sure.


Stuart B.

[kungfu cowboy]

Secret handshakes allow the "secret palm tickle" which is just a socially acceptable form of asking "Are you into manlove?"

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Secret handshakes allow the "secret palm tickle" which is just a socially acceptable form of asking "Are you into manlove?" Kungfu Cowboy sounds like he's been in a college fraternity or three.

[red5angel]

I think KFcowboy is just finally coming out of the closet.

[kungfu cowboy]

LOL, MK!:D

R5A, that's just wishful thinking!:p

[red5angel]

well if you look anything like your avatar pretty boy ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

wait, didnt the boxers use cannons and guns? i swear i saw pcitures of the with cannon's strolling through the mud. i dont know about the guns though.

[FIRE HAWK]

Iron Ox Southern Mantis was used in the Boxer Rebelion it was taught to the Boxers by the founder of Iron Ox Southern Mantis Choi Dit Ngau or Iron Ox Choi , Iron Ox Southern Mantis is the fourth version of Southern Mantis and is a Hakka art .

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
wait, didnt the boxers use cannons and guns? i swear i saw pcitures of the with cannon's strolling through the mud. i dont know about the guns though.

Perhaps. But "CannonerRebellion" is too hard to say.

[Shaolindynasty]

The boxer rebellion was the result of several different problems in China. Religion played a part to. Also there was a big drought that was causing allot of people to starve to death and some believed the drought was because of the forgien pressence in China. I read a book called the three keys (I think but i'm to lazy to get up and check). The empress also instigated the boxers. It all came to a head during a battle in 1900 in the forbidden city. It's really interesting really. The book also had some letters from british and americans who witnessed the battles and said it seemed the boxers wouldn't die. One said the boxer kept getting up after getting shot and charging forward. It kinda reminds me of the end to last samurai. Similar situations

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Yep. I think it had more to do with control than with style.

Stuart B.

so again..just to be clear, what we're really talking about are Iron skills...and I wasn't there but go figure that westerners would say such things about the funny little yellow guys with the funny eyes ( no offence to my asian friends and which just for the record I personally find extremely attractive) fighting in the robes with funny pendants and statues......


didn't alot of those folks flee to the hills and come back to give us our kungfu we have now.....sounds obvious to say, but just want to make sure we're on the same page

how is that a loss....the culture lives on and check shaolin out for comeback of the millenium!! The abbot is doing, has done and will continue to put in big time to weed out western influences (which I believe the temple accepted with this exact senario in mind once the dust settled and lives were no longer in danger) and bring shaolin back to its tradition roots. ..and the guy is that amiable that he even plans to offer westerners official first time in history opportunity to indocrinate and join the temple.....just so there's no hard feelings....can't arguewith that logic

( but I'm pretty sure someone here'll try ;) :p

[apoweyn]

so again..just to be clear, what we're really talking about are Iron skills...and I wasn't there but go figure that westerners would say such things about the funny little yellow guys with the funny eyes ( no offence to my asian friends and which just for the record I personally find extremely attractive) fighting in the robes with funny pendants and statues......


didn't alot of those folks flee to the hills and come back to give us our kungfu we have now.....sounds obvious to say, but just want to make sure we're on the same page

We are so not on the same page. What are you talking about? Iron skills? Westerners talking about funny little Asian guys? Gah?!

You quoted my comment on control. I'm referring to the control by Chinese rebels on Chinese rebels. The higher ups convincing the lower downs that they were protected from foreign gunfire.


Stuart B.

[Vash]

All of a sudden, I'm reminded of the thread about the guy who dropped like four hits of acid.

[Hermes3X]

1. did they really think iron shirt made them impervious to bullets?

2. how many styles were wiped out as a result of Empress Cixi's maniacal plan to rid the Middle Kkingdom of the gringos?

[rubthebuddha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_rebellion

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Hermes3X
1. did they really think iron shirt made them impervious to bullets?

2. how many styles were wiped out as a result of Empress Cixi's maniacal plan to rid the Middle Kkingdom of the gringos?

1. the answer is definetly yes. I learned the secret technique form my sifu and I can teach you too. but dont be mad if it dont work and you get shot and die.

2. none, what people dont tell you is that the boxers really won. the emporor that was in power was a boxer supporter.


:D :D :D

[Ben Gash]

1.No
2.none
We've had this conversation many times, do a search.
The Boxers weren't martial artists and didn't do iron shirt. They were "spirit boxers" and believed they were demon possessed. Most were simple peasants manipulated for political ends :(

[omarthefish]

******! Ben beat me to the punch. :mad:

[Chang Style Novice]

modern boxer rebels (http://dogster.com/dog_page.php?i=49602&n=18081&PHPSESSID=9fd98af4de1f43e5466bb68e841bcb43)

[David Jamieson]

...and they drank a whole lotta Bu Chiew... which is another thing that lent itself well to "spirit" boxing :D

[Ben Gash]

CSN, you REALLY need to get out more.

[Chang Style Novice]

It's not my fault that my family is heavily into pet rescue.

In fact, I'm rather proud of them for it.

[Shaolinlueb]

good for you CSN :)

my family rescued many pets. msot are nut cases too. like this current keishound we have, oh man. talk about having a couple screws loose.

[Chang Style Novice]

It's really mostly my mom. Five of her six critters are rescues, and now that she's retired she spends most of her time on arranging for the rescue, rehab, fostering and adoption of dogs, most especially airedale terriers and basenjis. When I get into a location and financial position where I can afford dawgs of my own I think three will be my limit, though.

[Shaolinlueb]

dont believe these people herpes x I am right I AM ALL KNOWING!

[evil laugh] MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA [/evil laugh]


:p

[ZenMonkey]

Does anyone have any good recommendations on books or information on the "Boxer Uprising or the Righteous Harmony Society Movement" that is interesting or worthwhile. Seems to be a very interesting time in history but not much written about it in the English language.

http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/r/ri/righteous_harmony_society.gif

[Oso]

I haven't read this yet but it's on the list.

http://www.amazon.com/Boxer-Rebellion-Dramatic-Chinas-Foreigners/dp/0425180840/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246803463&sr=8-4

This might actually be 'on topic' for the main forum though...might move it later.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Here're two lists of books, one for the Boxer Rebellion and the other for the Tai Ping (Great Peace) Rebellion. Both were relatively recent, and both played a role in Shaping China and Chinese Martial Arts into what it is today.

Boxer Rebellion
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/search?keywords=Boxer%20rebellion&pageSize=10


Tai Ping Rebellion
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/search?keywords=Taiping%20rebellion&pageSize=10

One book I recommend on this time period is called "God's Chinese Son."

[mickey]

Greetings ZenMonkey,

Are you sure that photo is from the Boxer Rebellion and not the Sino Japanese War? I remember seeing it on ebay recently.


mickey

[ZenMonkey]

Thank you very much for the responses and I am looking at the recommendations and making my book list.

I am really interested in the dynamics socially and culturally that produced the movement and also interested in the more well known members of the groups. I really have not seen any particular books that delve directly into this area much more in the broader history.

Mickey, I found the picture on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chinese_rebellions

They could be wrong

Thanks to all

[TaichiMantis]

found on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/CHINA-Boxer-BEHEADED-Execution-Canton-Prison-STEREOVIEW-/290429371160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item439ef08318)....:eek:

[Lucas]

look up images and videos from the massacre of nanjing. pretty shocking...

[David Jamieson]

found on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/CHINA-Boxer-BEHEADED-Execution-Canton-Prison-STEREOVIEW-/290429371160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item439ef08318)....:eek:

how is it confirmed as boxer rebellion?
and how would they be beheaded in prison and by whom?

[sanjuro_ronin]

They obviously didn't have the AUTHENTIC TCMA !!

[hskwarrior]

well, the Qing Empire had strong penalties for secret societies. Some went to jail, some were tortured. But, if they were suspected to be members of the Hung Mun, they were instantly beheaded. i've read more than a few times that the Qing would round up like five thousand Hung Mun members at a time and behead them all.

can you imagine that? 5,000 heads, and bodies laying around.

[David Jamieson]

well, the Qing Empire had strong penalties for secret societies. Some went to jail, some were tortured. But, if they were suspected to be members of the Hung Mun, they were instantly beheaded. i've read more than a few times that the Qing would round up like five thousand Hung Mun members at a time and behead them all.

can you imagine that? 5,000 heads, and bodies laying around.

well, the problem with that is that the boxers and the qing were on the same side against the 8 nation alliance in the boxer rebellion whereby all boxers were annihillated (100k to 300k) and some 20,000+ qing forces were rubbed out by the colonialist armies and imperial japanese forces.

the main confusion at the end of the qing empire stemmed from the emperor being only a small boy and the dowager running the show and well, she was crazy. So warlord princes more or less ran the show and there was no unified effort. Internal bickering was the downfall of the qing dynasty really.

the boxers were obviously a joke as far as martial ability was concerned.
less than 50k mowed them all down. this is not a testament to good kungfu or any kungfu at all, just a nationalistic fervor and anger.

[YouKnowWho]

just a nationalistic fervor and anger.

Like those tea party members?

[David Jamieson]

Like those tea party members?

well, at least they have guns. lol

unlike the boxers who brought knives to the gun fight... :rolleyes:

[cerebus]

the boxers were obviously a joke as far as martial ability was concerned.

Well, I would say that rather we don't KNOW anything about their martial ability. They may have all been incredible hand-to-hand combatants, unfortunately for them they never got the chance to engage in such combat. As for "strategic" ability however, that clearly sucked. The strategy of close combat and protective amulets versus guns wasn't a terribly good one...

[MasterKiller]

well, the Qing Empire had strong penalties for secret societies. Some went to jail, some were tortured. But, if they were suspected to be members of the Hung Mun, they were instantly beheaded. i've read more than a few times that the Qing would round up like five thousand Hung Mun members at a time and behead them all.

can you imagine that? 5,000 heads, and bodies laying around.

5,000 people is an Army. Why would that amount of people, concentrated together, not fight back?

[David Jamieson]

Well, I would say that rather we don't KNOW anything about their martial ability. They may have all been incredible hand-to-hand combatants, unfortunately for them they never got the chance to engage in such combat. As for "strategic" ability however, that clearly sucked. The strategy of close combat and protective amulets versus guns wasn't a terribly good one...

martial ability is strategy and tactics. the boxers displayed a distinct lack of both, ergo h2h is irrelevant. Heck, it's irrelevant now in a very real sense.

training methods have been shown again and again in this decade to be what makes or breaks a fighter and frankly, tma training methods ain't cutting it in the real world of h2h fighting.

what's inside those arts could be good, but if you spend a lot of time sitting in a horse stance thinking about primordial energy, then you are essentially stealing any martial ability you might gain from yourself and replacing it with nonsense that will not serve you in a conflict.

[hskwarrior]

5,000 people is an Army. Why would that amount of people, concentrated together, not fight back?

I have no idea. some of these stories were documented by religious missionaries in china who witnessed these things happening.

[David Jamieson]

I have no idea. some of these stories were documented by religious missionaries in china who witnessed these things happening.

The boxers and qing got together under an anti-christian/ anti-colonial banner and it was the christian missionaries that were early victims of the boxers brutality.

yes, there are a lot of testimonies about that time.

I totally understand people wanting their country back and to be the captains of their own ship. But talk about going about it the wrong way. The boxers should never have gotten into bed with the qing in my opinion.

[hskwarrior]

Here's a link to the full text book on the boxer rebellion.

http://www.archive.org/stream/chinayellowperil00millrich#page/n9/mode/2up

[Lee Chiang Po]

The boxers and qing got together under an anti-christian/ anti-colonial banner and it was the christian missionaries that were early victims of the boxers brutality.

yes, there are a lot of testimonies about that time.

I totally understand people wanting their country back and to be the captains of their own ship. But talk about going about it the wrong way. The boxers should never have gotten into bed with the qing in my opinion.

Exactly. It was the Qing that were doing the head chopping after their defeat. You really have to pick your friends.

[mickey]

Greetings,

David Jamieson is correct here.

Though I do believe the photo is that of executed prisoners, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in that offering to suggest that they were Boxers-- other than the seller's description of what he is selling. They were nothing more than prisoners from Canton who were executed.

mickey

[SPJ]

the beheading in china was done with a machete

whereas the french use the guillotine

and british/american use hanging by a rope

---

[bawang]

*sheds single tear down cheek

[TaichiMantis]

how is it confirmed as boxer rebellion?
and how would they be beheaded in prison and by whom?

It didn't say "in" the prison, could have taken place outside the prison. The picture was taken during the time of the boxer rebellion, doesn't mean they were actually boxers. A lot of innocent people were rounded up and killed during this time.

It's also listed (http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/96518970/?sid=c9e86b6b2666b4a87cadff79698cbeab) in the Library of Congress

[TenTigers]

the weird thing..the guy in the second row, third in from the left, looks like me.
I knew I was a Martial Artist in China in a past life,
I just didn't know I was a dead one...:(

[hskwarrior]

yup! sorry TT

[Scott R. Brown]

well, the Qing Empire had strong penalties for secret societies. Some went to jail, some were tortured. But, if they were suspected to be members of the Hung Mun, they were instantly beheaded. i've read more than a few times that the Qing would round up like five thousand Hung Mun members at a time and behead them all.

can you imagine that? 5,000 heads, and bodies laying around.

I read somewhere, years ago, that the mongols beheaded 1,000,000, I think in Samarkand, after they defeated them!


well, at least they have guns. lol

unlike the boxers who brought knives to the gun fight... :rolleyes:

Don't forget their Chi!!! :eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

*sheds single tear down cheek

<catches the tear in silver bowl to take home and mix with a pinch of stardust, a thimbleful of hopes and dreams and just a shred of integrity to make the magical elixir that will free the Good Fairy prisoners from the evil Manchurian Dragon Overloard>

[Scott R. Brown]

<catches the tear in silver bowl to take home and mix with a pinch of stardust, a thimbleful of hopes and dreams and just a shred of integrity to make the magical elixir that will free the Good Fairy prisoners from the evil Manchurian Dragon Overloard>

I understand that if you sprinkle some on your shoes, you can fly too!:)

And if you drink a bit you will fall down a rabbit hole and see a strange caterpillar smoking from a hookah while talking to a kitty cat with a big sh!t eating grin! Like this: :D

[taai gihk yahn]

the weird thing..the guy in the second row, third in from the left, looks like me.
I knew I was a Martial Artist in China in a past life,
I just didn't know I was a dead one...:(

or maybe it was your long-lost great-granduncle Jules "China-boy" Kellerman, who left Canarsy to seek his fortune in Canton, and got in a bit over his head...

[taai gihk yahn]

And if you drink a bit you will fall down a rabbit hole and see a strange caterpillar smoking from a hookah while talking to a kitty cat with a big sh!t eating grin! Like this: :D

please, I don't have to do anything nearly as elaborate to see all that - I just have to log onto this forum!

[Scott R. Brown]

please, I don't have to do anything nearly as elaborate to see all that - I just have to log onto this forum!

LOL!!! Ain't it the truth!:eek:

:)

[Tao Of The Fist]

I am in the process of actually studying the style that the majority of the Boxer's learned...does that mean that I'm doomed to get my ass kicked and beheaded as well?? :eek::eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

I am in the process of actually studying the style that the majority of the Boxer's learned...does that mean that I'm doomed to get my ass kicked and beheaded as well?? :eek::eek:

Only if you try to stop bullets with your Chi while overthrowing your oppressive government!

[Tao Of The Fist]

Only if you try to stop bullets with your Chi while overthrowing your oppressive government!

You mean that we can't actually do that??? Next thing you know, you're gonna tell me that I can't summon a legion of spirit warriors to purge the foreigners out of my country.

[Scott R. Brown]

You mean that we can't actually do that??? Next thing you know, you're gonna tell me that I can't summon a legion of spirit warriors to purge the foreigners out of my country.

Well.....everyone is allowed to try.....but so far we are all waiting for the first success!

If you would like to give it a try yourself, please be sure to have a videographer with you so we can all laugh at you later on YouTube!:D

We might even play some soccer with your head!:p

[David Jamieson]

the weird thing..the guy in the second row, third in from the left, looks like me.
I knew I was a Martial Artist in China in a past life,
I just didn't know I was a dead one...:(

officially up there in the ton 20 weirdest comments made about a photo on kfm. lol :D

"2nd row third from the left." ...awesome, lol, like you're pointing out an uncle or something...

who else looks for their doppleganger in old photos?
I have a hunch that we all do this looking for some past iteration of ourselves.

consider this, if you did well as a goat, you got to be a dog, if you did well as a dog, you get to be a cat, if you do well as a cat, you get to be ... a human.

If you do poorly as a human, you might go right back to goat.

:p

[TenTigers]

not sure how Eastern philosophy looks at reincarnation, but according to Western Pagan/Wiccan philosophy, you don't go back, but remain human and go through trials, such as being severly handicapped in order to learn compassion, etc.
..just sayin'

I musta done something really bad in a past lifetime to have to be with my ex this time around...maybe I was Mengele...

[sanjuro_ronin]

not sure how Eastern philosophy looks at reincarnation, but according to Western Pagan/Wiccan philosophy, you don't go back, but remain human and go through trials, such as being severly handicapped in order to learn compassion, etc.
..just sayin'

I musta done something really bad in a past lifetime to have to be with my ex this time around...maybe I was Mengele...

You need to embrace catholicisim !
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/6/25/633815076998881685-NAUGHTYNUN.jpg

[ghostexorcist]

how is it confirmed as boxer rebellion?
and how would they be beheaded in prison and by whom?
It didn't say "in" the prison, could have taken place outside the prison. The picture was taken during the time of the boxer rebellion, doesn't mean they were actually boxers. A lot of innocent people were rounded up and killed during this time.

It's also listed (http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/96518970/?sid=c9e86b6b2666b4a87cadff79698cbeab) in the Library of Congress
This is a neat one:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3807/beheadedcrinimalskaifenoc8.jpg

The activities of the bandit White Wolf actually got mentioned in the New York Times a few years before he was caught and executed.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...9649C946596D6CF (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=950DEEDD1E39E633A25751C2A9649C946596D6CF)
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...amp;oref=slogin (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C06E2DC1E39E633A25752C0A9659C946596D6CF&oref=slogin)

[Lee Chiang Po]

The boxers consisted mostly of farmers and ragtag peasants. Most likely instigated by the Boxer tongs. So few of them actually had Martial skills other than how to poke with a pitch fork or a thrashing stick and maybe a big knife. Some had guns, but not at all modern and few of them. It did not start out as a full blown rebellion, but more of a thug assault on missionaries and educators. It sort of got out of hand quickly and in came the foreign armies to crush the so called rebellion. Then the Empiress decided to save face and exicute all the participants. The Chinese took it in the neck for many years by all the foreign powers.

[David Jamieson]

The boxers consisted mostly of farmers and ragtag peasants. Most likely instigated by the Boxer tongs. So few of them actually had Martial skills other than how to poke with a pitch fork or a thrashing stick and maybe a big knife. Some had guns, but not at all modern and few of them. It did not start out as a full blown rebellion, but more of a thug assault on missionaries and educators. It sort of got out of hand quickly and in came the foreign armies to crush the so called rebellion. Then the Empiress decided to save face and exicute all the participants. The Chinese took it in the neck for many years by all the foreign powers.

the qing emperor was a foreigner. the qing dynasty was foreign.

China didn't come back into it's own until after it's civil war...which still divides it somewhat between ROC and PRC

[kfson]

They obviously didn't have the AUTHENTIC TCMA !!

No BJJ.
........

[Scott R. Brown]

No BJJ.
........

Yeah good point.....if they only had had some MMA training they could have taken over the government!

[Lee Chiang Po]

the qing emperor was a foreigner. the qing dynasty was foreign.

China didn't come back into it's own until after it's civil war...which still divides it somewhat between ROC and PRC

Oh Well. They were still in control of China at the time, and they were the ones that did the head chopping, not the British, Americans, Japanese, Dutch or Germans. Or any of the other nations that were squatting at the time in China. I know you understood what I was saying. So why do you always have to knit pick like some old woman?

[monkeyfoot]

look up images and videos from the massacre of nanjing. pretty shocking...

well I just looked as some of the life accounts/ massacre clips on youtube, it brought a tear put it that way :(

[Scott R. Brown]

look up images and videos from the massacre of nanjing. pretty shocking...


well I just looked as some of the life accounts/ massacre clips on youtube, it brought a tear put it that way :(

Yeah, the Japanese want an apology, and I think got one, for the Bomb, but refuse to apologize themselves for Nanking and the rest of their atrocities!

[ghostexorcist]

It didn't say "in" the prison, could have taken place outside the prison. The picture was taken during the time of the boxer rebellion, doesn't mean they were actually boxers. A lot of innocent people were rounded up and killed during this time.

It's also listed (http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/96518970/?sid=c9e86b6b2666b4a87cadff79698cbeab) in the Library of Congress
This website has a lot of period beheadings. They appear to be be done by both Chinese and Japanese. There is one from Manchuria too.

http://beheadedart.com/ (WARNING! Not for the faint of heart)

Several of the pictures have Europeans posing with the dead bodies. They were some morbid b@st@rds back then!

[Syn7]

They obviously didn't have the AUTHENTIC TCMA !!

too bad HW wasnt there... he couldve saved everyone...

[Syn7]

I know you understood what I was saying. So why do you always have to knit pick like some old woman?

sorta answered your own question there didnt ya?

[Lee Chiang Po]

sorta answered your own question there didnt ya?

Well, not really. Maybe I just over reacted?

I have seen pictures of large stacks of heads, all piled up. No bodies in sight except for the one just getting his neck shaved. The headsman was a little old man with this great big knife. Looked like a cane knife. He was stoning it while two great big Chinamen were holding the victims arms behind his back, sort of twisting them so that he is all bent over in pain. The old man would eventually get up and whack him one. It was written on the back of the pictures the name of the headsman and his two sons, and that they were getting 25 cents American per head. It is a bit hard to imagine someone willing to kill off their neighbors for a quarter each.

[Syn7]

she argues like an old woman coz she is an old woman...:D and she has 45 year old sand in her vagina...

she likes to preach acting civilized and keep arguments respectful and productive... yet she takes loosely veiled shots all the time, like using a slightly higher than average and absolutely nerdly bourgeois vocabulary makes it less offensive... or maybe she thinks they just wont get it coz she is so far ahead of them in intelligence...

[ghostexorcist]

Well, not really. Maybe I just over reacted?

I have seen pictures of large stacks of heads, all piled up. No bodies in sight except for the one just getting his neck shaved. The headsman was a little old man with this great big knife. Looked like a cane knife. He was stoning it while two great big Chinamen were holding the victims arms behind his back, sort of twisting them so that he is all bent over in pain. The old man would eventually get up and whack him one. It was written on the back of the pictures the name of the headsman and his two sons, and that they were getting 25 cents American per head. It is a bit hard to imagine someone willing to kill off their neighbors for a quarter each.
According to what I've been able to find, 25 cents American around the year 1900 was equal to 41 cents Chinese (allowing for differences in gold and silver exchange rates). There was a rise in food prices during this time. This means a man would do things like behead his neighbors in order to feed himself and his family.

[diego]

http://archive.org/stream/chineseheroesbei00headrich#page/n0/mode/2up

http://archive.org/search.php?query=boxer%20rebellion%20AND%20mediaty pe%3Atexts

I'm trying to find a copy of the old 5 elders novel in English, anyone have any recommendations of classical Chinese literature I should look out for on Google?.

[taaigihk]

Cool photo of dandao and a shuangshoudai on page 216. Thx!

[bawang]

didnt some south korean bible group go to iraq to convert muslims in the middle of the iraqi war? people never learn.

because of arrogance of catholic and protestant missionaries they undid 1600 years of syrian and iranian christian missionary work in china.

[Kellen Bassette]

Being the anniversary of the Wounded Knee Massacre, it seems like there are several parallels to the Boxer Rebellion.
Any thoughts?

http://iloveancestry.com/memories/19st-century-american-history/item/122-wounded-knee-creek-massacre-december-29-1890-ghost-dance-wovoka

[lkfmdc]

http://nysanda.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/lessons-from-the-boxer-uprising/

http://nysanda.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/chinese-martial-arts-history-part-four/

Of course, read Esherick if you are really serious

[bawang]

Being the anniversary of the Wounded Knee Massacre, it seems like there are several parallels to the Boxer Rebellion.
Any thoughts?

http://iloveancestry.com/memories/19st-century-american-history/item/122-wounded-knee-creek-massacre-december-29-1890-ghost-dance-wovoka

mowing down hordes of kung fu savages was colonial propaganda.

the boxer rebellion was very complicated but mostly was about geopolitics with many pawn pieces. magic kung fu was a very small part in it.

modern historian view and books on it is very biased because it doesnt effect anything today so is just quickly passed over without fact checking. if you research the original accounts you can tease out the truth.

that period was very chaotic because there were many factions each with their own unique views and goals.

[Kellen Bassette]

I have read your blogs before Dave, thanks for sharing, I always enjoy them....

I don't know a whole lot about either event really, other than the readily available, condensed versions of the story you find everywhere...I just thought it interesting that the strong similarities in the plot climaxed into a similar end. Obviously, Wounded Knee was a much smaller scale than the boxer rebellion, but we see the same elements, foreign oppression, legitimate, organized resistance, but with inferior weapons/numbers, desperation resulting in charlatans hawking "new magic traditions" and a last ditch effort that ends in a massacre.




the boxer rebellion was very complicated but mostly was about geopolitics with many pawn pieces. magic kung fu was a very small part in it.


I have no doubt your right about this. The "magic Kung Fu" portion of the story would have made for great propaganda then; and even today. Objectively it is one of the more interesting parts of the story, to the average person browsing histories. I'm sure there was a lot more to the American Indians story as well, before some of them resorted to "magic shirts," but it does show something of a common thread when a traditional culture is under attack.

At some point I'll have to find some deeper reading on the subjects....

[bawang]

I have no doubt your right about this. The "magic Kung Fu" portion of the story would have made for great propaganda then; and even today. Objectively it is one of the more interesting parts of the story, to the average person browsing histories. I'm sure there was a lot more to the American Indians story as well, before some of them resorted to "magic shirts," but it does show something of a common thread when a traditional culture is under attack.

At some point I'll have to find some deeper reading on the subjects....

u looking at the tree and missing the forest.

boxer rebels believed white people were demons coming from a portal in the middle of the pacific ocean.

[Kellen Bassette]

u looking at the tree and missing the forest.

boxer rebels believed white people were demons coming from a portal in the middle of the pacific ocean.

That's absurd. The portal is in Scandinavia.

[lkfmdc]

white people were demons coming from a portal in the middle of the pacific ocean.

That is why they were ignorant peasants, we all know that portal is under Gene's desk in his office

[bawang]

its a common misconception was the boxer peasants were ignorant of westerners, but many of them were coolies in colonial islands or the americas. if u ponder on this then the boxer rebellion becomes perfectly understandable

[lkfmdc]

In all seriousness, they may not have been ignorant of westerners., but they were ignorant in terms of education.. a lot of them were young peasants who were drawn in by the so called "martial arts' but which were really superstitious rituals just used as marketing gimmicks for recruitment...

The event is so significant because, like the Taiping, it draws in so much of the important trends
- increasing decentralization
- increasing peasant discontent
- increasing militarization in the local areas
- the growth of millennial sectarians and secret societies
- increasing western impact upon Chinese everyday society

[bawang]

we are talking about people who witnessed california mountain men making human jerky out of corpses of chinese miners, penuses cut off and fed to dogs, gang raped, forced to eat rats to survive, etc etc.

then they go back to their hometown hoping to get away from all that, see a giant shiny church in the middle of the village and hear about missionaries banging harems of women and molesting kids, its the perfect storm

accounts of boxers were filled with people going into psychotic rages, mental breakdowns, PTSD flashbacks when they saw western people or buildings, etc

PLUS missionaries nosing around in hardcore hui areas with extremist teachings, tons of hui scholars who went on pilgrimage in the 1850s and learned from the one and only wahab himself

[GeneChing]

we all know that portal is under Gene's desk in his office

If I did have a portal under my desk, it wouldn't deliver white demons. It would bring me something else (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?41007-Sword-hotties) entirely.

[Kellen Bassette]

If I did have a portal under my desk, it wouldn't deliver white demons.

9275

Don't lie Gene. We know better.

[GeneChing]

There's a horrid pun to be made here (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67299-Monkey-King-2&p=1279629#post1279629), but I'll restrain myself. That would be an awful way to end the year.

[lkfmdc]

There's a horrid pun to be made here (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67299-Monkey-King-2&p=1279629#post1279629), but I'll restrain myself. That would be an awful way to end the year.

what about flying purple people eaters ? :eek:

[ghostexorcist]

The book The Origins of the Boxer Uprising (1988) discusses the Golden Bell technique. This is just one section:


The Early History of The Armor of the Golden Bell

Though there is mention of a "Big Sword Society" in northern Anhui in 1735, we know nothing about the nature of this group, and our attention must turn to the formal name of the society which reemerged in the 1890s: "the Armor of the Golden Bell." The Armor of the Golden Bell existed at least since the late eighteenth century as a martial arts technique for achieving invulnerability. Several of its practitioners became associated with sectarian activities around the time of the Eight Trigrams uprising of 1813. There were the usual charms written on red paper, which were burned and swallowed, and spells some of which appealed for the assistance of a patriarch (zu-shi). But it seems clear that the Armor of the Golden Bell was a technique and not any sort of organization, and those who learned this technique, like other boxers whom we have examined earlier, had only tenuous connections to the sects.

A typical example was Zhang Luo-jiao from Ganji in Guan county, Shandong, whom we met in chapter 2. Zhang, like his father and younger brother, was a Daoist priest, and had learned boxing and certain healing methods from an in-law in 1782. Then in 1793, a teacher from Henan taught him the Armor of the Golden Bell and gave him two charms. "From the time he learned the methods (fa) of the Armor of the Golden Bell, he boxed and taught disciples for profit." His association with the Eight Trigrams sect came only later, in 1800, when he learned the "True Emptiness spell" (zhen-kong zhou-yu) from a Li trigram sectarian from the same Eighteen Villages area of Guan county. But Zhang claimed to have left the sect when his teacher kept coming to collect donations, and though a second-generation student of his was involved in the 1813 conspiracy, I have seen no evidence contradicting Zhang's claim that he had broken with the sect and was not involved in the rebellion.

It would seem, then, that one hundred years before our era the Armor of the Golden Bell was an established boxing technique on the north China plain, and as the name implies particularly associated with invulnerability rituals, though at this time only against knives and swords. That practitioners of this technique got involved with sectarians (and thus appeared on the historical record) is without doubt. But the relationship seems to have been individual and often ephemeral. What of the Armor of the Golden Bell of the 1890s?

Li Bing-heng did call the Armor of the Golden Bell a "heterodox sect," and a wide range of informants from southwest Shandong have identified the Big Sword Society to oral historians as associated with the Kan trigram. Historians in the P.R.C. remain divided on the relationship of the Big Swords to the sects some arguing that the society's origins were clearly with the White Lotus sects; others that it was only a group of martial artists. A definitive conclusion is probably impossible at this time, but other appearances of the Armor of the Golden Bell in north China during this decade are instructive. In the Northeast, a captured teacher claimed to have learned the technique from a traveling Daoist priest some years before, and confessed to making money by teaching people to "evade weapons and the kalpa." The mention of the "kalpa" links this group quite clearly to the millennial tradition of the White Lotus, but it is a linkage that never appeared among the Shandong groups. One is led to believe, therefore, that some prior connection to the White Lotus did exist, and that the connection was reflected in the belief systems of some groups still active in the late nineteenth century. But in Shandong, the evidence suggests that the link had grown quite tenuous. No longer do we see any of the key elements of White Lotus ritual: worship of the Eternal Mother, preparation for the kalpa, or belief in the coming of the Buddha Maitreya. To the extent that these were the defining features of the White Lotus sect, the Big Swords did not belong. Their function and concern were essentially military and their "heterodox" rituals were all for the purpose of achieving invulnerability. If in the mid-Qing, such invulnerability was particularly attractive to those preparing for the millennium (or for a rebellion), by the late Qing, bandits armed with firearms were so common that invulnerability rituals now became important to those seeking only to defend their homes and communities (pp. 96-98)

[mawali]

Literacy was always low in these areas of contention with the common folk so it was easy to meme names of past "kungfu" peasant rebellion with its false magic Buddhist/Daoist mix of mumbo jumbo and tricks associated with circus "miracles' (it still works today with kingfu today so don't be surprised:D) that it was the magic that allowed these groups to prosper as opposed to some objective organized social movement. The people tried but often failed until Mao came into existence. Mao brought the real social community activism that is often downplayed in present US Society and is often seen as a threat to the present social order!

[bawang]

magic mumbo jumbo is an essential and inseparatable part of folk kung fu. folk taoism IS magic. post republic era kung fu was sanitized with magic and superstitious rituals and beliefs removed.

[Kellen Bassette]

magic mumbo jumbo is an essential and inseparatable part of folk kung fu.

This is true for all ancient, Asian martial arts. Possibly all other ancient martial arts as well.

[bawang]

This is true for all ancient, Asian martial arts. Possibly all other ancient martial arts as well.

no just folk kung fu. any type of magic talk was punished by beheading in ming dynasty army. hui also didnt do the magic stuff

secular non magic kung fu like taizu changquan and bajiquan did exist but the fact is most popular kung fu styles today came from qing dynasty explosion of new styles that are filled with fantastical myths and magical beliefs


just for painful reminder, northern hongquan was core of boxer rebellion.

shaolin temple 8 step linked boxing is 100% classic boxer rebellion era kung fu.

[lkfmdc]

any type of magic talk was punished by beheading in chinese army.



Yes, see for example General Qi





hui also didnt do the magic stuff



As Muslims, it was strictly forbidden




secular non magic kung fu like taizu changquan and bajiquan did exist but the fact is most popular kung fu styles today came from qing dynasty explosion of new styles that are filled with fantastical myths and magical beliefs



Most of what we have today is linked to secret society bullcrap and it's bad marketing

[Kellen Bassette]

no just folk kung fu. any type of magic talk was punished by beheading in chinese army. hui also didnt do the magic stuff

secular non magic kung fu like taizu changquan and bajiquan did exist but the fact is most popular kung fu styles today came from qing dynasty explosion of new styles that are filled with fantastical myths and magical beliefs

Magic and ritual was practiced through all classes and walks of life and a great many ancient militaries.
How many times, in how many cultures, has magic been banned under punishment of death, but never died out?

[Kellen Bassette]

As Muslims, it was strictly forbidden


Yet Muslims have a huge mystic tradition. Jews were banned from practicing magic, but have one of the most well known magic traditions.
Christians were banned from practicing magic, Christian magic traditions are well known.

[bawang]

Yet Muslims have a huge mystic tradition. Jews were banned from practicing magic, but have one of the most well known magic traditions.
Christians were banned from practicing magic, Christian magic traditions are well known.

hardcore extremist muslim school began with the wahab guy in 1850s. chinese scholars met him on their pilgrimage and brought back that ideology, it led to internal hui civil war supported by qing govt. extremists were defeated and were accused of trying to become non chinese.

this led to hui ideology in china shifting to nationalism core. this in turn led the hui battalion to support the boxer rebellion. most of the boxer rebels actually fighting were gansu hui battalion, the farmers ran home. this let the hui fight christians and prove their loyalty to china.

about 20 thousand hardcore kung fu masters stayed behind, 200 thousand farmers ran home the night before. because boxers were technically infidels the hui army used them as human shields. this was the source of the "savage horde" reports

[Kellen Bassette]

shaolin temple 8 step linked boxing is 100% classic boxer rebellion era kung fu.

Is this related to the modern form, Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan, you see in Songshan, Ying Jow, ect.?

[bawang]

Is this related to the modern form, Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan, you see in Songshan, Ying Jow, ect.?

lian huan quan was sound morphed from lian hua quan, lotus flower boxing.

babu lianhuan quan fist poem is also an oddity that stands out, it talks about wu song come down from heaven and killing demons who are attacking his mother. at the end of the fist poem its clear wu song symbolizes you and his mother is the chinese people.

wu song was a very popular character in boxer possession rituals.

wu song breaking handcuffs is prolly also from boxer rebellion

[Kellen Bassette]

no just folk kung fu. any type of magic talk was punished by beheading in ming dynasty army.

Ming Army magic...


In addition, Mao Yuanyi (1594-1640), the composer of the greatest and most
comprehensive military encyclopedia, the Wubei zhi, who had extensive combat
experience in the field, includes in his section on “Prognostications” (“Zhan” 占)
a series of esoteric ritual performances and prayers (Yanrang 厭 禳) to counteract
baleful influences that a general might encounter in the course of his duties.
These, he says in his preface, are not matters that a gentleman (junzi) speaks
about (茅 子 曰 厭 禳 君 子 所 不 道 也). He describes a ritual to exorcize an
epidemic (ji 疫) which involves the burning of the heads of captured enemy
soldiers—we should not be surprised that such rituals were recommended by a
late Ming literatus (shidafu 士 大 夫) like Mao Yuanyi, since in contemporary
late imperial popular culture rituals to exorcize plague demons were quite common,
witness the cult of the military deity Marshal Wen 溫 元 帥 in Zhejiang
province analyzed by Paul Katz.57 Mao describes another of these rituals that
was intended to counteract the powerful influence of a royal qi emanating from
an enemy general.
厭 王 氣 法，敵 之 王 氣 久 而 不 衰 者，觀 其 氣 王 於
何 方，當 六 甲 旬 首 正 子 時，於 營 中 月 空 上，環
三 九 步，以 朱 畫 八 卦 壇 法 成 三 界，其 內 畫 十 二
辰，及 月 將 之 名，東 西 南 北 相 去 等，前 取 黑 狗
雞 各 一，大 將 披 素 服，左 手 仗 劍，右 手 按 二 畜，
北 面 立，默 誦 敵 將 名 氏，即 殺 之，埋 於 氣 王 之
方，深 三 尺，氣 衰 則 去 之。
The method of suppressing a royal qi (wang qi): When an
enemy’s royal qi has long endured and not declined, observe
the direction where his qi rules. Then just at the zi time at
the beginning at the Six Jia weekly cycle, in the middle of
the encampment beneath a moon in the void, circumambulate
in twenty-seven paces, with vermilion draw the model
of an altar of the Eight Trigrams, and create a triple boundary.
Inside draw the twelve chronograms (shier chen), the
name of the Moon General, the directions east, west, south,
and north separated from each other, and so on. In front of
the altar take each of one black dog and one black ****. The
general puts on plain clothing, and in his left hand brandishes
a sword, and in his right takes the two animals. He
stands with his back to the altar, chants the given name and
surname of the enemy general, and then kills the animals
and buries them three feet deep in the direction where the qi
rules. When the qi declines, you will be able to get rid of
it.58
This is a fascinating text that deserves a much fuller interpretation than I can
give it here. Suffice it to say that in such a period of disorder as the late Ming, it
was thought that a “royal qi,” evidently believed to be present independently in
the cosmos or generated by an individual’s morally correct behavior, could attach
itself to a rebellious general. A loyal general fighting on the side of the
Ming emperors could destroy this “royal qi” by creating a powerful cosmic centered
ritual space protected by the spirits of the Eight Trigrams, the powerful
spirits of the months that we see in Liu Ren, Qimen, and Dunjia divination tradition,59
and other astral deities, and, at the most auspicious moment and under the
influence of Yin powers, symbolically kills the enemy general and forces his qi
to dissipate. This cannot just be interpreted as natural magic leading toward
science, but must be analyzed within the context of traditional Chinese religious
and ritual beliefs and practices of exorcism, a burgeoning field of inquiry.60 The
late Ming general was, in fact, a powerful exorcist. We must analyze the actions
of traditional Chinese armies and the symbolic meanings that they gave to their
equipment if we are to understand what they thought that they were doing on the
battlefield and on parade.

~Robin D.S. Yates: The History of Military Divination in China

[bawang]

Ming Army magic...

he was a table top general. he wrote about catapults and armored knights at a time when each ming battalion carried one million tons of bullets and powder.. the books written by generals who won battles all talked about banning superstition.

[Kellen Bassette]

he was a table top general. he wrote about catapults and armored knights at a time when each ming battalion carried one million tons of bullets and powder.. the books written by generals who won battles all talked about banning superstition.

That's what one would expect, really, not unlike the situation today. (The writer does credit Mao Yuanyi with extensive field experience, however.)

I was reading a study on Song Dynasty rituals the other day, (I'm sure you've seen all the original texts,) a good portion of the military manuals of the time were devoted to divination, astrology, ritual, but one general made it a point to caution that it was more important to pay attention to what was happening on the earth, than to worry about the heavens. I would venture a guess that he may have had more "real" experience than others. His manual was reprinted in the Qing, but without his skeptical comments.

[David Jamieson]

The Song dynasty in the end fell utterly to the Mongols (highly realistic when it came to kicking ass).
So, they done messed up.
:D

[lkfmdc]

The Song dynasty in the end fell utterly to the Mongols (highly realistic when it came to kicking ass).
So, they done messed up.
:D

They were so divided, they invited the Mongols in! NOT SMART

[David Jamieson]

They were so divided, they invited the Mongols in! NOT SMART

They forgot the purpose of the wall. :p

[GeneChing]

They forgot the purpose of the wall. :p World's biggest tourist attraction?


:p

[Kellen Bassette]

The Song dynasty in the end fell utterly to the Mongols (highly realistic when it came to kicking ass).
So, they done messed up.
:D

True, but it took a few centuries. Imagine how much we could screw up in that amount of time. :P

[-N-]

[...] it talks about wu song come down from heaven and killing demons who are attacking his mother. at the end of the fist poem its clear wu song symbolizes you and his mother is the chinese people.

Inspirational.

Let's see the text.

[bawang]

Inspirational.

Let's see the text.

theres an original standard longfist poem then a later one that combines all the moves into a story, then a later sanitized one that reverts back to original style after rebellion failed, something about wusong smashing up a lot of mountains and his mother trapped in a mountain. i saw it in amateur meihuaquan documentary on chinese youtube

like for the move chengxiang split mountain save mother, its wusong split mountain save mother, blowing up ten thousand demons and fairies to smithereens, iron fist punch tai mountain calms world or something

[-N-]

theres an original standard longfist poem then a later one that combines all the moves into a story, then a later sanitized one that reverts back to original style after rebellion failed, something about wusong smashing up a lot of mountains and his mother trapped in a mountain. i saw it in amateur meihuaquan documentary on chinese youtube

like for the move chengxiang split mountain save mother, its wusong split mountain save mother, blowing up ten thousand demons and fairies to smithereens, iron fist punch tai mountain calms world or something

Cool.

Got a link to the vid?

[bawang]

Cool.

Got a link to the vid?

it was on tudou and they dont let u watch outside china anymore. it was one of those amateur self made chiense hillbilly documentary/advertisement with the cheesy voice

these days meihuaquan guys are pretty open and smug about it, they even showed white lotus member list on another cctv doc. hong quan guys are still secretive tho

[Cataphract]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

The Boxer Rebellion started in Shandong. I'm curious what KungFu style(s) did the boxers train?

[David Jamieson]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

The Boxer Rebellion started in Shandong. I'm curious what KungFu style(s) did the boxers train?

They trained whatever was trainable, but wound up with "spirit boxing" and heads filled with shamans nonsense.

It was a lost cause before it was even a cause.

[hskwarrior]

The Boxer Rebellion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

The Boxer Rebellion started in Shandong. I'm curious what KungFu style(s) did the boxers train?



Hung Sing Choy lee Fut is one of the systems that fought in the boxer rebellion. WE did not believe in the magic that some schools believed would help protect them in battle. not all the systems involved were so esoteric like the ones that did believe in it.

[Jimbo]

Way back when I was in school in a film class, we saw a historical film about the boxer rebellion, and there was actual footage of one of the boxers practicing a broadsword form. The footage was fast and jerky, as you would expect from moving picture film from 1900 or so. Of course, the focus of the film was not MA, and there was no way of knowing what the guy in the footage practiced. I'm certain that besides Shen Da (spirit boxing) there were people from many different styles, as well as people who did no styles.

[B.Tunks]

Hong Quan, Meihua Quan, Luohan Quan. To a lesser extent, Bagua.

[bawang]

kung fu styles
-100% of northern kung fu participated in boxer rebellion
-rename of many kung fu styles into shen quan and yihe quan, without changing content, just rebranding, like mantis, and most renamed back to original style after rebellion failed. hongquan was the main backer

participants
-200k peasants with 10k hardcore kung fu members, organized by white lotus
-shaolin monks and tibetan lamas reported in organization leadership
-the 10k saw initial success as rear guard flanking for the modern equipped qing army but were sacrificed by the qing army as human shields in city fighting during siege of beijing by sending them to the front
-200k hunted 10-30k missionaries and converts before dispersing with no casualities

superstition
-the missionaries called all qigong exercises pagan magic ritual.
- superstition, spirit possession and magical spells are a normal part of traditional kung fu.

causes
-intensified missionary activity with missionary molestation of children and women and destroying temples, and colonial soldiers killing villagers.
-famine + unemployment

aftermath
-continued fighting into 1920s, absorbed by republican army
-boxer groups rename to patriotic association/athletic club/cultural research center in modern day
-direct attack on churches in modern times, or passive avoidance, ghost church phenomenon
-one case of mysterious death of german tourist disemboweled in 90s with no money or valuables taken in rural area near white lotus home base