Relaxation

[StevoWC]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum and also relatively new to Wing Chun. I have been training in Kamon Wing Chun Kung Fu for 10 months now and I really enjoy it.

One thing I am struggling with in my training is the ability to fully relax. I have noticed it gradually gets better as the months go by but I was wondering if anyone had any tips or advice on how to get full relaxation. I take deep breaths to relax my shoulders and I do focus. Is relaxation something that comes over time when studying Wing Chun??? of are there other ways that help?

Any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated

:D

[sihing]

StevoWC,
Welcome to the forum Steve. As for being "fully relaxed" during training, I wouldn't recommend that at all. There should always be calmness when training or fighting, but one must also be ready to move or react or initiate a movement when training or fighting for real. In my WC, we stress that when the guard (WU Sao) is up, there should be a static forward intention in the arms/body, that way if one tries to attack the guard it will not just collapse and be more susceptible to an attack. This forward intention in the arms/body should always be there during two person training drills and during sparring, chi-sao, forms & actual fighting. Not all WC lineages adhere to this concept.

When at home after a training session I would recommend to fully relax then, and at the same time try to vividly imagine the movements that you learned and practice that day, to help the neural pathways to develop properly. When something is imagined vividly enough the mind does not know the difference between what was imagined and what really happened.
I used this type of training method when I began my training 16yrs ago and have found it to work, as a supplement to actual physical training.

Sihing

[anerlich]

Yoga.

Also, just lie down, go through your entire body, consciously tensing each muscle and relaxing it, from your fingertips to your toes. A pretty standard sort of drill most therapists will recommend.

The face often carries a lot of tension. It may help in a short break during training to periodically screw up your face and tense your entire body, then exhale and try and relax it all. Shaking your body and limbs will also help. Wipe your face downward with your hand and imagine erasing the tension.

Relaxation is important in absorbing blows, and flexibility training, to name only a couple of aspects.

But *both* tension and relaxation are important - at the right time. Without muscle tension, you are a bag of guts. Efficient movement requires tension of the appropriate muscles and relaxition of the antagonists at the right time.

It is possible to be too relaxed for efficient performance - but since the vast majority of trainees bring way too much tension to the party, the advice to "relax, relax" is usually most applicable.

[Lindley57]

StevoWC,

Welcome to the forum and the Chun. To train for something we first must know what it is. Relaxation is a martial attribute. It is also an attribute we find in other things we do in our daily lives. I have defined relaxation, much like you have, as the result of experience. The more we do something, the more we gain confidence in doing it. Thus, when we reach a level of mastery we find we can go out of the rules of what we do to test our relaxation. The idea of Yoga and meditational exercises is very good, especially for reduction of stress and distractions. However, we cannot run before we walk. We must put the time in and one day you will see. So, look into something else you do very well and see what the process was to get there. Martial Arts training should be no different.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by StevoWC
I take deep breaths to relax my shoulders and I do focus. Is relaxation something that comes over time when studying Wing Chun??? of are there other ways that help? StevoWC,
Are there specific times when you have trouble relaxing? For example, during chi sao as oppossed to doing forms. The reason I ask is because I suspect that if it is during contract drills or sparring, etc, then you need to let go of the idea that you with lose if you are hit, or if you make a mistake. It can be an ego thing. Not wanting to "look bad". However, you must let go of that notion, because you limit your progress by trying to force the situation.

Regards,
Bill

[YongChun]

Relaxation starts with an idea to do that. Then it takes time and honest monitoring of what you are doing. Constantly ask yourself "am I being relaxed?" Correct Wing Chun structures help you to relax. Being relaxed doesn't mean no pain in the legs.

With some objectionable practice partners it's difficult to relax because they want to take your head off or because they have no respect for you. So don't train with those types unless you are in a big hurry to defend yourself in next weeks fight. Mental attitude, proper stretching and a lot of martial arts experience all help one to relax. It's easier to relax when you have confidence and know what you are doing.

Relax is also a relative term. To someone more relaxed than you, you will always seem stiff in comparison. In the 1980's my practice partner's told me that I was very relaxed. My teacher told me that I was too stiff. In the early 90's a very good Wing Chun teacher told me I was too relaxed for the skill that I had and such relaxation would get me killed. So as someone mentioned on this topic being too relaxed is not always a good thing either.

Relaxed is sometimes confused with being limp. Being limp doesn't work very well. It takes time to start up from a limp state and a limp state is also not a sensitve state.

When I trained Tai Chi, many of my classmates felt very very soft. But the master himself did not feel soft at all. Yet he wasn't stiff and tense either. My forces always got redirected to somewhere so no mater how hard I pushed or pulled the master , it never had an affect on him. An analogy I though of was that of a bicycle wheel. The wheel itself is a very rigid object but a pushing force merely spins the wheel and spins the force away. I have met some people who were very tighly strung and never achieved the soft feeling. Instead they always felt springy like a twig but weren't really stiff.

[Hendrik]

Relaxation is a difficult topic.
that is because relaxation itself involve a few different platforms.
such as the physical, the emotional, the concious, ... not to mention what is the degree or deep of relaxation or letting go , one wants.

Is that one wants for one's SLT, Wing Chun, or Chisau or centering or sparing or fighing? or...training?

hard to say what kind of relaxation and how far one wants and it depend on situation, no one size fit all solution.

Relaxation in a certain type of meditation might involve in the relaxation in certain platform but not totally relax in certain one. As the brain wave shifted slow down from alpha to theta.... lots of different combination of platform exist.

A total relaxation in all platforms in the sametime is very difficult to achieve because when the concious platform is relax, it gets into Awarenes realm. how is the world looks like when there is only pure Awareness? what happen with other platforms such as physical or emotional..... ?Chan Buddhism has technic to get into this Awarenss realm directly. that is what it called pointing direct to the heart (note that heart is not the concious heart or logical derivative capable mind. Do not mistaken) But, is this what one wants? However, since Leong Jan places Chan at the end of his Wing Chun Kuen kuit. I believe there must be states which Leong or older ancestors had gone throught. May be the unlimited adaptive of flow similar to water without shape and totality of listening and changing of Wing Chun Kuen has to be activate in the Awareness only realm when no concious block one because one doesnt identify one as a particular identity or technics.... Dont know. But, it seems to be very interesting. one can get a biofeedback machine and experiment with it.


People talk about Yee, talk about shen..... the question is when one activated one's Yee or intention to issue power or fajing does one totally relax? when the punch hit the heavy bag is one tense up or relax? Might not be so relax in the concious platform or even in the emotional platform..or physical platform... Might be different if one train in Shao Lin YiJingJing or Chen TaiJi....

see, it gets back to square one again. Does one fajing while stretching or shrinking? what will relaxation do for these two different cases? Lots of questions and lots of platforms and components involve.

another question people most likely will like to ask is --- so knowing and mastering this will this improve my fighting? may be one wants to ask what is the benifit if one has another 3 degree of freedom or 3 degree more control.

get a biofeedback machine, one can learn alots about relaxation.

just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by YongChun

When I trained Tai Chi, many of my classmates felt very very soft. But the master himself did not feel soft at all. Yet he wasn't stiff and tense either. My forces always got redirected to somewhere so no mater how hard I pushed or pulled the master , it never had an affect on him. An analogy I though of was that of a bicycle wheel. The wheel itself is a very rigid object but a pushing force merely spins the wheel and spins the force away. I have met some people who were very tighly strung and never achieved the soft feeling. Instead they always felt springy like a twig but weren't really stiff.


Great you bring up about soft....

IMHO, Soft and hard are translation erro.

In Chinese, there are Ruan ( soft/Limb) and Ink (hard/brittel)
There are Kang (rigid support by elastic) Rou ( flexible support by elastic)

Kang and Rou are what the goals. not Ruan or Ink. Thus, relaxation by itself cannot do it.

just some thougths.

[PaulH]

Just read this thread. Interesting stuffs, Hendrik! Practically speaking I think if you hit and don't let go of the power then you are not relaxed - Ding Sau would be a great way to practice this. Of course I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this as well as fajing with "relaxation".

Regards,
PH

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Just read this thread. Interesting stuffs, Hendrik!

Practically speaking I think if you hit and don't let go of the power then you are not relaxed - Ding Sau would be a great way to practice this. Of course I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this as well as fajing with "relaxation".

Regards,
PH


There are issues about Hit and let go the power.

The issue are how to hit and let go. is it hit then let go? it is hit and let go in the same time? is it let go and it will hit? and what one wants to achieve----Scatter? piecing penetrated? explosive?

One can use the same external shape. but if the awareness or intention is different. everything is different. This is also the reason which create confusing Tan Sau...etc.


There are lots of research in the old days. this is in the catagory of how to applied Jing or power , how to control it, and what is the characteristics of the JIng. Very interesting stuffs. WCK suppose to be one of the system expert in these stuffs and ofcorse Yee Chuan is another one. I think one can get a PHD for studying how human body can do these stuffs. and there are difference about knowing or has it stable. knowing means know about it. stable means it can be repeat without fail. then there is fine tune state....

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Hendrik
There are issues about Hit and let go the power.

The issue are how to hit and let go. is it hit then let go? it is hit and let go in the same time? is it let go and it will hit? and what one wants to achieve----Scatter? piecing penetrated? explosive? Brilliant !! :)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Matrix
Brilliant !! :)

Those are ancestors' stuffs.

This is just a small part of it.
In order to be able to identify or select different combination or having detail control. a method so called snake body has to be in place. As I have heard...

so no, not just relaxation..... there are lots more to that.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Hendrik
There are issues about Hit and let go the power.



That sounds like alternating hard-soft, pulsing kind of power.

Snakes do that? no?.... :)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yylee
That sounds like alternating hard-soft, pulsing kind of power.

Snakes do that? no?.... :)


Nope that is not it.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Nope that is not it.

but it seems a lot of WC people are doing pulsing...., soft like nothing most of the time but still hit like a truck.

so it will be hard to imagine what a snake body is like, IMHO :(

[PaulH]

How do you define snake body, Hendrik? I know the body must be agile in fighting but snake body is more of Bagua method of fighting.

Thanks,
PH

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
How do you define snake body, Hendrik? I know the body must be agile in fighting but snake body is more of Bagua method of fighting.

Thanks,
PH


Paul,

speaking about communication.

There are two points can be breaking down the conversation .


1, you bring up the idea of body must be agile in fighting.
2, you label snake body as more Bagua


The fact is if you starts with the above--- must, fighting, Bagua ---key words then your mind stuck with your image and no matter. what I said it will not get into your system.


This is very common even with me. we all do it. Such as if I mentioin Chan, our labeling subsconcious starts running.


Snake body? I wait for 26 years to verify it to do double blind test. and nah, it is not what you have in your 1 and 2. because the 1 and 2 are just a describtion of something explicit of shape. Snake body is a system with different platforms and it can take any shape.

[Hendrik]

There is lose up.
There is scanning.
There is settling.

and they are bigggggg things...............very big fundametal things....

[PaulH]

Okay, humor me, Hendrik! Lightning flashes on my head all the time. So what did you find out? =)

[t_niehoff]

From a pragmatic POV, IME the term "relaxation" (one of those buzzwords that floats around) is generally overused, misused, and misunderstood (so that all the mumbo jumbo comes in). For the most part, you could sum it up as "don't put more effort into the task than necessary" to accomplish it. The easiest way to find that is by repetition and working past exhaustion -- so that your body has to "relax" and will find the most efficient means.

Regards,

Terence

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, humor me, Hendrik! Lightning flashes on my head all the time. So what did you find out? =)


I dont humor. I just cry with tears. :D

I found out I am just a Darth Vaders, with the Zen mind in my head and my body is full mechenical and electronics.

For me, Relax, Sinking, settle, losen up, connect to ground, rooting, lower the center of gravity,,, all have different meaning because my body is mechanical and electronics. So, I have to define things very clearly, otherwise my body will not follow me.

You better Light up on your head then let me light you up with my laser saber! Hahahahahaha


I hate Jedi because they have too much ego, no well define training. and that old Teddy Bear Yoda is just too absent minded.
Sure, he is a great fighter but he cant train people. Look at all his students. none is better then him. hehehehehe

[PaulH]

Ready when you are, DV! =)

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
The easiest way to find that is by repetition and working past exhaustion -- so that your body has to "relax" and will find the most efficient means.

Regards,

Terence

This is karate mumbo jumbo, Terence.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Ready when you are, DV! =)

One needs to know what is settling --- the root of all energy handling.......

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by old jong
This is karate mumbo jumbo, Terence.


I dont work until exost. I let it settle...... and that is the first step.. a great step. :D

That is my Darth Vaders mumbo jumbo.

[Vajramusti]

Abstract nouns are problematic in the world of words.
Relaxation is such an abstract noun.

Hendrik- Darth Vader is a model of relaxation?!!!!

joy chaudhuri
www.twmpewingchun.com

[yylee]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik- Darth Vader is a model of relaxation?!!!!



didn't you hear Darth Vader's deep breathing inside his high-tech oxygen mask? :D

[Vajramusti]

yylee sez:

didn't you hear Darth Vader's deep breathing inside his high-tech oxygen mask?
-------------------------------------------------------------
When my techie comes over -he brings an air compressor- when it's plugged in it also make that same noise.
The most relaxed character in Lucas's menagerie was/is
Chewbacca- which was based on his own real life pet Alaskan Malamute. Good classic members of that breed are models of proper relaxation.
joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com