Self-discovery

[t_niehoff]

Since Alan brought up the topic of "self-discovery" on another thread, I'd like to isolate that for discussion. IME, MAs, like many athletic endeavors that involve competition, is an excellent means of self-discovery. To really discover ourselves, or others, means, to me, to see ourselves or others as we really are. To do that we need to push ourselves or have someone push us to our limits. You discover if someone really is a good friend not because they never miss one of your parties but because they stood by you in a crisis when all others abandoned you. Now you *know*. You find out about your own character from adversity, when everything looks bleak, when you are getting pounded (are you a quitter? are you a fighter? do you have the "right stuff"?). Phil Redmond, I'm sure, will tell you that he learned about himself storming up the Vietnamese hill in a real bayonet charge, not back in bayonet class in boot camp. Fighting pushes you to those limits. You discover what you are really made of -- and sometimes it isn't pretty. But then, because you *know* -- because you've seen it yourself and can't hide from it -- you can change yourself. You can, for instance, decide to stop being a quitter or to stop being a coward. Without that experience, you don't have real self-discovery and thus no real personal growth is possible. That's what I think they mean by adversity makes the man.

Terence

[YongChun]

A long time agin, I talked to a guy who thought these kinds of thoughts. He wanted to test himself to see what he was made of. He listened to all the army hype and got very excited. They sent him to the Korea war. When he returned he was missing both arms. He no longer thought his ideas were good. He said that the government did nothing for him. Not even a thanks. Now he lives in complete poverty.

[old jong]

I remember when I was a little boy and I had to kiss that old grand aunt who had a moustache.It took lots courage.You can really discover yourself facing things like that.

[anerlich]

I agree that character is forged and tested through adversity, or perhaps "challenge" is a better word.

Seeking adversity for no purpose higher than attempting to build up a poor self-image I think is a bad idea. Not to say there aren't worthy causes to take risks for, there are.

One of my si-dais consciously went out to test himself by confronting all his fears, snakes, spiders, heights, etc. OK, but I thought he was a bit stupid to ride a push-bike through one of the worst areas of Sydney, where he would be an obvious target for racial hatred. One of the spiders bit him, too.

I thought a lot of Castaneda's stuff was rubbish, but I did like the quote from (IIRC) Journey to Ixtlan (paraphrase):

An ordinary man sees everything that happens to himas a blessing or a curse. A warrior sees everything that happens to him as a challenge.

Old Jong, no tongues I hope :)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I believe that many in the MA's are guilty of self delusion. They practice techniques with no real danger associated with them. Many arts, including many Wing Chun schools, have moved away from the brutal and extremely effective methods in their arts. They have instead been substituted with toned down more civilized methods. While some of this is necessary it is very important not to lose the essence of the art. In my classes I stress very effective and brutal techniques. By learning how to perform and react to these types of techniques one is better equipped to react in a real life situation. However, IMHO one would be quite foolish to conciously seek out dangerous situations in order to test ones mettle and ability. :rolleyes:

I tend to agree with anerlich in that seeking out confrontation as a means of testing or challenging oneself is foolish. Indeed, if one needs to seek out confrontation to prove ones ability or mastery of fear etc, then it could very well be an indication that one really is afraid and does not have the self confidence that training in the arts can bring. Instead one is simply substituting one self delusion for another.

I think that one should train as close to reality as possible. However, one should also realize that nothing will replace an actual encounter. You can train all day and still not know for sure how you will react in a real situation. You may make educated guesses based on your training and your training can aide you in dealing with a real encounter. But unless you are actually in the "fight" you will never know for sure your reactions. On the other hand all situations will be different so even if you reacted one way at one time that is not to say you will react the exact same way another time.

It has been said that the difference between a coward and a hero or one who is courageous is that while both feel the same fear, the hero acts in spite of that fear. There are plenty of admirable methods to train ones mind and spirit to help prepare for the ultimate need without going out and seeking trouble.

If my life depended on my ability then my training would be much more brutal and focused. However, it is my sincere hope that I never need to employ anthing I have learned. While there is indeed a great difference between training and doing I do not feel that the actual threat justifies the concious seeking out of trouble and adversity to test our skills in real confrontations.

Wing Chun should prepare you to deal with combat if the need arises. However Wing Chun should not teach you to seek out that combat if it can be avoided. Indeed if one truly understands and respects the combat applications in any art, and trains with that mindset then one is already that much closer to the "self discovery" of the warrior within. Confidence will come as one learns the techniques and concepts. By training as close to reality as possible one will gain a respect not only of the art, but of ones own ability to apply the art. This knowledge will be the source of ones confidence and will aide one great on the path of "Self Discovery" without the foolish act of seeking out trouble and putting oneself in danger just to see if it will work. Not only are there moral implications for those who seek out trouble, there may very well be legal ones as well.

Just my opinion nothing more or less.

Peace,

Dave

PS; As a side note I have faced a few adversities over my life and I credit two things to my strength and ability to perservere:
A strong belief in God and my training in the martial arts.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Sihing73
As a side note I have faced a few adversities over my life and I credit two things to my strength and ability to perservere:
A strong belief in God and my training in the martial arts. Sihing73,

Amen to that. :)

Peace,
Bill

[KPM]

TN wrote:
You discover if someone really is a good friend not because they never miss one of your parties but because they stood by you in a crisis when all others abandoned you. Now you *know*. You find out about your own character from adversity, when everything looks bleak, when you are getting pounded (are you a quitter? are you a fighter? do you have the "right stuff"?).

---There are lots of way to discover this short of getting pounded in a fight. Should we start roaming around in "Wing Chun Gangs" to see just who our real friends are and find out just how tough we are?

Phil Redmond, I'm sure, will tell you that he learned about himself storming up the Vietnamese hill in a real bayonet charge, not back in bayonet class in boot camp.

---I'm sure he would also tell you that he learned alot about himself going through the tough boot camp training prior to being sent to Viet Nam.

Fighting pushes you to those limits. You discover what you are really made of -- and sometimes it isn't pretty. But then, because you *know* -- because you've seen it yourself and can't hide from it -- you can change yourself. You can, for instance, decide to stop being a quitter or to stop being a coward. Without that experience, you don't have real self-discovery and thus no real personal growth is possible. That's what I think they mean by adversity makes the man.

---There are many kinds of adversity other than looking for fights to prove ourselves. Honestly Terence, this recent post makes you sound like some gang-banger. I know that is not really what you are trying to say. But realize that many of us believe that much of what you are getting at can be achieved by hard training and controlled sparring situations that are short of out-and-out "fights for your life."

Keith

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Since Alan brought up the topic of "self-discovery" on another thread, I'd like to isolate that for discussion. IME, MAs, like many athletic endeavors that involve competition, is an excellent means of self-discovery.
Terence

no question...........if you want to gety personal with yourself.do some hard core training, feel your body talk and understand aout you what no book 'll ever say ;) ..............

[Fresh]

Reading things like this I can begin to understand why there ar so many attempts at regulating ma's thru new laws. I guess it has to come to that when people won't regulate themselves. It also keeps making a lot more sense why so many women and more mature people are turned off from wing chun. Its all Terances fault. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

I just don't understand all the hostility towards Terence's post?

Of course it's through adversity that we discover who we really are, and what adjustments we can make to become better, stronger, more courageous, etc.

Do you think you're going to learn these things through candies and sweets, compliments and roses?

But Terence is advocating fighting - and that's bad...some are saying.

He's advocating learning about life...through fighting...which is exactly how we WILL learn - at certain times in our development - and through no other method...This is our karma (destiny based upon previous actions) and our dharma (duty...because our growth requires it)...

at THIS MOMENT IN TIME - and there is no way around it. Only through it.

It's known as the Warrior Spirit.

[anerlich]

"The art of Life is more like wrestling than dancing" - Marcus Aurelius.

[blooming lotus]

UWC........great post :D

[KPM]

Victor wrote:
He's advocating learning about life...through fighting...which is exactly how we WILL learn - at certain times in our development - and through no other method...This is our karma (destiny based upon previous actions) and our dharma (duty...because our growth requires it)...

---Yes, but Terence seems to advocate actively seeking out these fights. That is what people are reacting to. Like I said before, his post almost sounds like some gang-banger going around looking for rival groups to fight with in order to prove how tough and manly he is. Sure, fighting is going to "test your mettle", but people that go out on the town and look for a fight are usually frowned upon in modern society. In doing that, the thing you may discover about yourself is that you are really a bully! Extreme circumstances certainly teach you alot about yourself, especially circumstances that are life-threatening. This may be extracating yourself or others from a burning building, escaping from a car sinking into the river, jumping from in front of a train in the nick of time, etc. But does that mean we should go out and look for a burning building?.....drive our car into the river on purpose?....or stand in front of a train? If I ever happen upon a circumstance where I have to use my WCK training to protect myself or someone else from an attacker intent upon grave bodily harm, then yes I am sure this will teach me alot about myself and what I know. But I am not going to actively go out and look for this person that wants to try and kill me! That would be BAD karma!

Keith

[blooming lotus]

life is a fight..............

[Matrix]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
life is a fight.............. Life is what you make of it.

[Lowereside]

Hi , I,m new to the forum, Ralph

Self discovery is being on your own. In WING CHUN
not being bound by organizations...............

[old jong]

Words like Karma and Dharma can have their meaning twisted to fit any crasy ideas.The integrists of any religions do just that!...

The only big ennemy as always been ego!...It always has been the primary cause of all troubles in this world.It causes fear of losing and fear causes agressivity.

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong sez:

Words like Karma and Dharma can have their meaning twisted to fit any crasy ideas.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Old Jong- disciplined use of ideas-east or west- is the exception rather than the rule on many KFO lists. Name dropping and label dropping.
Ergo, Dogma often outruns Dharma and tries to do that with Karma. Onward through the fog- fight, fight, fight.))

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Lowereside
Self discovery is being on your own. In WING CHUN
not being bound by organizations............... Ralph, Welcome to the forum....

While you may need to "be on your own" for self discovery, part of the insight you may gain is that you are not really alone, not separate from everything around you. We are all connected.

Bill

[Lowereside]

Matrix, What I meant is there comes a time when the
the student should go on his own to develope and make the wing
chun his. Yip Man completed his training when he was 20 yrs.
of age, went back to the mainland and developed his style of WC.
William Cheung completed his WC training under YM At 18 yrs
of age. I'm not saying not to continue to have a relationship
and not visit your teacher. What I am saying that all these
WC organizations that keep the students still trying to get the
cirriculum after 20 years and still going for rank is ridiculus in
my opinion. But maybe some individuals are comfortable in
the environment they are in. The head of these organizations
did not spend 20 consecutive years trying to get the system from
Yip Man.

Ralph

[blooming lotus]

anyone who thinks that occassonally as the " bigger man " no fight is necessary, is fooling themself or in need of some hardship and independence.............can you fight and dance simultanaously???????................we fight 'cause we're strong enough ..................

[lawrenceofidaho]

What did Terence say that gives the impression he wants to get involved in illegal streetfights?

He could just as easily be referring to sportfighting (what Matt Thorton calls "honorable combat"), -an agreed upon contest of skill and spirit.

A high stress situation like that can really help reveal what's inside you in a way that only staying in your comfort zone (forms, drills, etc.) never will.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Welcome Ralph :)

I like your statement; "The head of these organizations
did not spend 20 consecutive years trying to get the system from
Yip Man."

I think that every Wing Chun school that has it's students fill out paperwork (for contracts, memberships, etc.) ought to be required by law to have that statement at the bottom of every page (kinda like the Surgeon General's warning on all individual packs of cigarettes). :D

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by Matrix
While you may need to "be on your own" for self discovery, part of the insight you may gain is that you are not really alone, not separate from everything around you. We are all connected.

This is a great point Bill. :)

Stephen Covey also referred to this in his "7 Habits" book.......


Covey's Maturity continuum:

1) Dependence is the paradigm of you, -you take care of me; you come through for me; you didn't come through for me; I blame you for the results.

2) Independence is the paradigm of I, -I can do it; I am responsible; I am self-reliant; I can choose.

3) Interdependence is the paradigm of we , -we can do it; we can cooperate; we can combine our talents and abilities and create something greater together.


Unfortunately, many organizations exert a great amount of effort to keep their students at the "dependence" level of martial maturity. :(

Ralph said; "not being BOUND by organizations", instead of saying "not having anything to do with organizations", and I think this is an important distinction. However , it's possible (for even intelligent persons) to not realize how bound they are by an organization and it's dogma / doctrine / agenda until they have completely gotten away from it and are looking back. There seems to be a fine line to walk sometimes.......

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

can you fight and dance simultanaously???????

I guess you weren't around in punk's heyday, late 70's early 80's, for "slam-dancing" in front of the stage ...