Stupid question about Wing Chun punches

[IronFist]

This is the product of my sheer boredom.

Ok, in a proper wing chun straight punch, is the wrist not straight? I was looking through a book by Yip Chun today at Borders, and it showed him with a punch extended, and while his fist was pointing forward (along the centerline), his arm was angled back to his shoulder, thus causing the wrist to be bent back at maybe a 20° angle.

That's the right way to do a wing chun punch, right? But every other style pretty much says to keep the wrist straight, because it's more "solid" or whatever.

Why the structural differences? No, what is the reasoning behind this type of Wing Chun punch? Is the structural integrity compensated for in another way?

Iron

[dzu]

Ironfist,

IMHO, the wrist should not be bent. The line of force starts at the middle knuckle and travels through the wrist and then to the radius and ulna bone and then through the elbow etc. Any unnatural bend at any of the points will break this line and cause a structural weakness which can limit the power transmitted and cause injury.

You can test this in several ways. One way is to stand facing a wall in YJKYM and place your first against the wall. Apply some pressure into the wall and feel how it applies pressure in return. You can feel the path travels through the arm. You can also do this by just standing in a natural posture and lean into the wall with your fist. If you feel tension anywhere along the path then that is where a weakness is. It can be anything from a bent wrist, the elbow not being down, the arm being too close to the centerline, or the shoulder being raised.

Another test requires a partner. Stand in YJKYM and extend one arm as if punching. Have your partner apply constant pressure against your punch. This requires good root to sink the force into the ground. You should be able to feel the force compress your body at the various joints and feel your feet press into the ground.

My lineage believes in testing the functional application of everything in the system. The application and the force we are required to sink or transmit dictates the structure of the technique.

regards,

Dzu

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While it is my opinion that one should not bend the wrist there are some techniques where the wrist is bent on contact in order to direct the force to specific areas. However, this is usually done after contact with a straight wrist is made.

When I punch I try to hit with the bottom three knuckles. Optimaly, I try to hit with only the last knuckle. However, this would also depend on the target area. For example, if I am striking low towards the stomach then my striking surface would be a bit higher than if I strike high to the head or neck.

You can get a good idea of the proper structure by standing facing a wall. Just as DZU describes. Take your fist and place it against the wall and exert a little pressure. The feedback you get will allow you to find the proper structure and placement for your punch. If you look closely you will find that the wrist will always be straight and not bent when the proper structure is obtained.

As to the photo you mention, appearances can be deceiving. Although the photo may appear as though the wrist is bent it is possible that this is due to the angle from which the shot was taken. Or, if the punch is aimed higher it could also appear as though a bent wrist is present but in person it may be otherwise. Having not seen the photo I can't say for sure. However, as I mentioned there are techniques for utizing a bent wrist after the punch has made contact. These are used to cause the opponent to react to the force in a different way. For example, you can exert a downward force to break his root and sink the opponent. However, the regular punch usually does the job just fine without the need for any added "bends". I believe many of these "extras" are just fluff and really don't accomplish anything concrete.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

It depends on the direction from which the punch is coming. There are more punches in Wing Chun that you think.

[IronFist]

Let me update my question. Observe this picture:

http://www.wckfc.com/training/punch.GIF

See how his wrist is bent (where as if you were looking at it from the top, it would be bent outward), isn't that a weak form of alignment?

Thanks.

Iron

[Watchman]

Just to nitpick here - that is picture of Ip Ching and not Ip Chun.

To be fair, that particular picture of my Sigung was meant as a "pose" and really nothing more than that.

In actuality, he punches with his wrist and hand lined up with the rest of his body structure - and that's not heresay as I've personally been hit by him. :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[IronFist]

I know the pic isn't who I mentioned. Ip Chun was in the book at Borders. That was just a pic I found on the net to illustrate what I was talking about.

However, it seems to be more than just him that punches that way (why would you punch differently for demonstration purposes?)

Iron

[edward]

best way for you to see how the punch is aligned, kneel on one leg then line your fist square onto the ground, that's the proper alignment of the punch.

Some styles emphasize the wrist action, but in my opinion what you end up doing is over doing the motion, resulting in the punch not going through the opponent. Remeber when doing the punch it involves both a horizontal and vertical motion, and it all comes to play naturally with the elbow leading the way.

Check out this article I wrote on more detailed accounts of punching

http://www.windycitywingchun.com/articles/articles2.html

[IronFist]

put your hand on the ground at the centerline or even with your shoulder?

Btw, nice article. Two problems: neither of the pics showed up, and the video link is broken.

One question "At the same time, while the fist began palm up, it ends with a 3/4 turn from the starting point." 3/4 of a turn? So you end with the pinky on top? I thought the index finger side was on top.

Windy City, eh? You guys located in chi-town?

Iron

[This message was edited by IronFist on 07-11-01 at 03:17 PM.]

[edward]

put your hand on the ground at the centerline or even with your shoulder?

actually either way, the fist still has to be square to the ground and this is the proper alignement of the punch.

as for the pic, yeah we defintiely didnt' get a chance to post that yet.. but i tested the video, and it works, you just need to give it time to download.

as for the fist, while it may start off palm up.. and eventually it doesn't matter, but this is easier for beginners to learn the horitzonal motion of the punch, by 3/4's i meant the angle, I didn't mean rotating the punch all the way so the pinky ends on the top side. The fact is the rotation is quite small. Thus if the pinky is located at 9:00, in clock reference, it would move only slightly to 7:00.

hope you can picture that.

[dzu]

I punch with the hand neither at the shoulder line nor on the centerline. The elbows line up on the mid clavicular line half way between the sternum and the shoulderline. A good approximation is a vertical line that passes through the nipples. This is the strongest path from the knuckles through the arms to the shoulder and then down to the ground.

Try it for yourself. Move your hand positioning between shoulder to sternum and see where the strongest path is. Keep the elbow, wrist, and knuckles lined up and have someone press your fist while you stand in YJKYM. You can also press into a wall and feel where the resultant counter-force presses back into you. When you punch someone, the energy, force, and momentum is sent into the target. However, this is not a one way street. The target also returns an amount of energy, force and momentum back to you. Having the proper structure during this time will send al of these into the ground so that you remain unaffected.

Regardless of which testing method you use, look for minimal strain at the joints, most especially the wrist and shoulders. The force vectors align differently when the punching arm is placed at the shoulder, mid clavicular, and sternum.

Also, I punch with a slight outward rotation of the fist to again maximize the structure of the arm and shoulder. This rotation is about 30 to 45 degrees clockwise for the right arm and counter-clockwise for the left.

The arm is never straightened when punching so that there is always power in the elbow and the structure remains connected. Keeping the elbow bent also covers and protects the mid and lower torso and can also be used to control the opponent's bridges and structure through contact.

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

I just thought I'd add my bit :)

I was taught to raise/**** the wrist during the motion of punching and then straightening it right before the moment of impact.

This way, not only do you punch with the power of the stance shift, waist torque and tucked elbow, but you get added "umpf" from the straightening of the wrist right before impact.

[dzu]

I don't believe in straightening of the wrist before impact due to the very high possiblity of injury. One mistake or misjudgement and the wrist is sprained or worse, broken, from improper alignment upon impact. IMHO the fist and more importantly, the knuckles should make contact with the body first.

Once contact has been made, the tilting of the wrist can be used to uproot the opponent from his horse due to the lifting and pressing motion IF the punch is still connected to your structure and the ground. There is no snap for extra 'power' per se, and certainly not for any extra range as I have seen described by some people.

IMHO of course.

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

to clarify:

I mean to straighten it before impact, not touching the opponent and then straightening it.

So there is a "snap" involved and the wrist is straight when contact is made

[whippinghand]

I agree with you

[EmptyCup]

I see...

so you always "lock" the elbow and keep it bent when punching? doesn't that shorten your reach quite a bit? Especially when trying to hit a taller opponent's head?

An in punching like that, how do you get "ging"? if the elbow is locked, much of the energy and strength is kept in the arm instead of being transferred out to the opponent, correct?

[dzu]

Empty Cup,

My elbows are not locked, extended, or fixed into place.

The elbow should be between 1 to 1.5 fist distance from the body. When training SNT, the elbow position is established any time a bridge is moving away from the body (tan sau, fuk sau, jik chung choi, etc.). The distance covered by moving the elbow from 1 fist distance to 1.5 fist distance is pretty significant. Any ****her than that and the arm begins to straighten out. My tan sau doesn't straighten until the elbow is extended because then I would lose the mechanical leverage. The same can be said for my punching or any other bridge I establish.

We are really talking end points here. Some people extend the arm fully but I always keep a bend in the elbow. Sometimes this bend is greater and sometimes it is very slight. I do not force my punch to stop nor do I use antagonistic muscles to slow it down. I use the minimum muscle to move the arm itself and rely upon my root, body structure, and footwork for power. I have trained slowly to find my own 'groove' based upon my body type. It's no coincidence that our WC ancestors stated to not move the elbow beyond 1-1.5 fist distance from the body.

How much range am I getting in exchange for losing the connection of my body structure? I will lose the majority of my power to gain an extra couple of inches. Not worth it IMHO. Not to mention the dangers of a fully straightened arm in close range fighting. I use my footwork to move me into position rather than try to reach for my opponent.

As for ging, I find the opposite is true. The more extended the arm, the less power can be transferred or received because the arm has used up all of it's potential in the extension and the shoulder is raised up. When the shoulder is raised up, the arm is unlinked from the torso and the path to ground is subsequently broken. You are correct that if my elbow were locked rigid I would block this path. However, my arms remain relaxed with no 'muscular tension' so that the power can transfer up from the ground or down to the ground.

WC fights very close to the opponent. It fights closer than arms distance because that's where the mechanics for delivering power with the elbow down is strongest. Against someone my size, I can hit the head fine. Against a taller opponent I hit what I can reach not reach for what I want to hit or I use a different tool. One of my training partners is much taller than me. Against him, I use more body strikes or I pull his head down to my level.

Head hunting is more of a Western influence due to the gloves worn in boxing to protect the hand and the need to knock someone out. In reality, the head is a very hard target with all sorts of odd angles that can easily break a fist. Most kung fu systems developed more skills striking the body's vital areas because of this reason.

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

Yes, my blocks keep the one fist distance you're referring to but my punches are slightly different. My punches do come from the centerline so my elbows are tucked in but my punches have the wrist snapping motion. However, they always return in to fixed elbow position - I never leave my arm extended or flare my elbows when punching. My palm strikes also have the tucked in elbow, but also are extended to hit before returning to the elbow-in position.

I get my "tan ging" or whip-power from expelling all the force in each blow. The arm is only extended for a half-second before returning to the "mai jang" or tucked elbow position. I don't see how "ging" can be achieved if the elbow is locked in a 90 degree angle. It would almost look like a runner's arms when punching! So much force would be required to keep the elbow from straightening when punching that each blow would lose its maximum power. I understand that the elbow is tucked in for punching, but why does the arm have to be kept in a tight right hook position? it seems impractical to me.

btw, you learned from Robert Chu. He practices the Yip Man, Gu Lao, and Yuen Kay San lineages. I'm pretty sure no Yip Man teachers teach punching the way you do it, and Gu Lao punching is similar, so is it Yuen Kay San wing chun that punches like that?

[dzu]

Empty Cup,

Again, I don't hold my arms back when punching. I extend the punch but I don't completely straighten the elbow or snap it out to full extension and then re-bend. My forearm/bicep angle is not constantly bent at 90 degree but it never straightens completely to 180 degrees either.

At neutral with the elbow 1-1.5 fist away from my body, the angle is about 110 to 120 degrees. I don't restrain myself when I punch. I let the hands go forward to the target. At most the angle between bicep and forearm will reach 160-170 degrees but only AFTER I have made contact and driven through my target. I don't snap my wrist and I don't hit the target at near full extension. I probably hit and make contact with an angle of 120-130 and then extend to 160-170 degrees as my fist travels through the target. A small change in the angle at the elbow will yield a large change in extension of the arm.

By straightening the elbow, even for a second, the arm is unlinked from the body and I need to physically relink it again for the next strike by re bending it. This takes time. By keeping the elbow bent, even if only slightly, I have a reserve because my body is still connected so that I can constantly hit with equal power on the first, second, and third strikes etc. This is only possible if the prime sources of power are the legs and pelvis, not the arms and shoulders.

regards,

Dzu