sparring in kung fu

[kung fu muppet]

relating to the previous thread about martial arts vs untrained in the street/realistic fighting section. I have recently coome to notice that sparring in martial arts builds up confidence, i later discovered that this confidence can make you weak against your opponants brutality because in most classes i have been to sparring is very competition based and ineffective.
various styles of sparring in kung fu have been made but i do not know of many. one of which that i practise is very slow and singular move based, this is more useful for begginers as it widens the variety of oppertunities and attacks they can use. i believe this is called "man da" we also practise "san da" which is faster and unpredictable.
in both styles i have found that the fighting is reliant on the opponant knowing martial arts to an extent otherwise you can find yourself forgetting everything you just spent the last years learning and brawling.
I have found that the most effective way of dealing with spontanious and random attacks is through applicational sides of moves in the longfist forms i practise. usually we take around ten applications and practise them until we can deal with any attack with the suited move in the form. this also helps me to understand the mysteries of the forms i practise.
Does anybody know of any other styles of sparring/training that sufficiantly deal with literally any fighter that you can come across within your own limits. i also practise ~?chi sau?~ which is the practise of sticking to your opponants hands and guiding attacks away from you with no real force, with constant practise this has greatly helped me with becomming a great fighter.
any links to sites and videos relating to this topic would be greatly appreciated

[Meat Shake]

Light gloves, headgear, mouthpiece.

Go fight full contact with some folks, you'll get better... But Tell them you banged their mom and want to knock them out first though.

[joedoe]

When you guys say full contact, do you mean full-powered contact? Or does the term cover all levels of contact except touch sparring? Just curious.

[Yum Cha]

If you are asking about traditional Chinese Martial arts, and not just generic fighting, I assume you want to learn traditional methods.

How each person learns to fight is as different as the individual themselves. What you want to learn is influenced by what you don't want to learn.

Too many times I have seen dedicated artists of one or the other traditional style become a generic kick-boxer when they spar, exhibiting none of the effectiveness of the traditional art they train. And I will admit the same from personal experience.

Under the pressure of sparring, you do what you can, that works, as quickly as you can. This can lead you to the lowest common denominator without proper discipline and guidance.

So, while you need the "ring craft" for combat, you also need the structure to fight "in style" and this does not come quickly, nor easily. Its harder and less effective to start with, but further down the track you gain the advantage, if you maintain the training and discipline.

If you think fighting with gloves, of any kind, resembles bare handed fighting you are in for a surprise one day. Likewise, the brutality of real combat is way beyond even the most competitive Sparring. And I'm not talking about school yard "honour fights".

In sparring, you are trained to "take it easy" to some point, even if that simply includes not driving your thumb into an opponents eye, or nailing him with a knee to the groin and an elbow across the bridge of the nose. You wouldn't grab somebody's face and tear it off in practice, nor would you break their elbow or collarbone.

So, train how you will, learn your lessons well, but don't loose sight of the differences between sport and survival.

In the split second when you need your highest level skills, your training will take over, how you train will be how you fight.

I know lots of you guys believe in lots of sparring, hard contact, and even grappling. Good on ya, been there, done that, it was fun. I'm just saying, there is more if you work for it.

[Hermes3X]

Yum,
how do you work with "him or me" fighting? please explain this place beyond you're talking about.

thank you,

h3x

[Ikken Hisatsu]

"Too many times I have seen dedicated artists of one or the other traditional style become a generic kick-boxer when they spar, exhibiting none of the effectiveness of the traditional art they train. And I will admit the same from personal experience.
"

get over yourself. a generic kickboxer? most of the time when I see TMAists go into tournaments they resemble a less than amateur kickboxer. they look like they've had about two months of training at most. dont degrade kickboxers by comparing people who suck at kung fu to us.

oh and the reason they exhibit none of the "effectiveness" is because they resort to what comes naturally. most TMA's try to change this and fail- thai boxing, kyokushin and kickboxing gyms try to enhance this and succeed. make of that what you will.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..




get over yourself. a generic kickboxer? most of the time when I see TMAists go into tournaments they resemble a less than amateur kickboxer. they look like they've had about two months of training at most. dont degrade kickboxers by comparing people who suck at kung fu to us.

Whew!! Someone's ego is healthy... speaking of "get over yourself"... i didn't see any put-down of generic kick-boxers, mostly it was a put-down of TMA that can't use their training when it counts.. but, hey, if you need to feel better about yourself by dissing others, good for you... "dont degrade kickboxers by comparing people who suck at kung fu to us".. in every art there are "people who suck", heck each one of us started somewhere and we sucked until we got with the program.. be gentle with folks, it pays off in the long-run..

Aside from that, i agree.. of the many tournaments i have either competed in or officiated i can count on one hand the number of combatants that demonstrated a working knowledge of their art.. Now, in the street, i have seen much more effective use of styles. In the street, with no rules, Qinna and breaks are super tools for self defense.. but, in the ring they are a no-no.. so, to compare ring tactics to style tactics may be a little off target.. also, gloves and protective gear neutralize much of the grappling and detail work that is signature to certain styles.. elbows and knees are no-nos in the ring, in the street they are some of the best tools you have.. unfortunately, there's no safe way to train "full-contact" with elbow strikes or knee strikes..

My experience leads me to conclude that the more often you cross-hands in the ring, the more comfortable you will be if a conflict arises in the street.. simple combat experience..

Be well..

[Shaolinlueb]

we dont really spar much, if we do tis san cho (sp?)
most of the time we just go no gloves 50% contact, anything goes, from punches and kicks to chin-na.

[MAC]

Yum Cha : Yes; exactly ! What he said

[Merryprankster]

Too many times I have seen dedicated artists of one or the other traditional style become a generic kick-boxer when they spar, exhibiting none of the effectiveness of the traditional art they train. And I will admit the same from personal experience.

No they don't. They just look bad.

[kung fu muppet]

i have developed a much more realistic method of sparring away from my kung fu class with my brother, it involves no moves more complex than a front kick, all kicks are below the waste and chi sau plays the biggest part in defence, ever since i have been practising this full on bare knuckle (kinda scary) but controlled method i have excelled in fighting. Any other techniques i am learning at the moment such as xing ji:confused: and ???Ba gua??? have changed my style of attack. if any of you have watched jet li "twin warriors"/"tai chi master" the fighting is similar to the style of the first fight in the temple.
after sparring supposedly goodish kickboxers i have found that my methods confuse them and they can not defend my attacks or hit me. no one in my kung fu class apart from my instructor regually spar so i have little to go by when anlysing the quality of my style

[Akhilleus]

quote:
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get over yourself. a generic kickboxer? most of the time when I see TMAists go into tournaments they resemble a less than amateur kickboxer. they look like they've had about two months of training at most. dont degrade kickboxers by comparing people who suck at kung fu to us.
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QUOTE]Whew!! Someone's ego is healthy... speaking of "get over yourself"... i didn't see any put-down of generic kick-boxers, mostly it was a put-down of TMA that can't use their training when it counts.. but, hey, if you need to feel better about yourself by dissing others, good for you...[/QUOTE]

No he's right...


No they don't. They just look bad.

The whole degrading to kickboxing thing...<yawn>...maybe if I practice forms more and applications less I'll start degrading to BJJ...

EDIT: BTW, I'm surprised this is still being discussed...all arguments should have been laid to rest when sun tzu posted that KF sparring vid over a year ago...we all know now that KF sparring is suppose to look like a really slow two-man-set, where they guys are stand really far apart...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21377&highlight=wahnam

[Mutant]

:rolleyes:
:p

[Suntzu]

wow..... i forgot about that one.......

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

OMG.. one video is hardly validation for judgements of TMA..

Oh well, we each have our egos to feed... (me included)..

Why put down anyone.. simply support your own art(s)..

I depend on a variety of arts, but.. my major and first line of defense is Taiji, everything else flows out from it depending on situations..

In the end, it works or it don't.. regardless of style.. if you survive be grateful for the training whatever it is.. and, be kind to your brothers and sisters that train with sincerity, regardless of style.. save the venom for the bad guys..

Be well..

[Yum Cha]

Being that the topic is sparring in Kung Fu, I'll try to stay on topic....

One of the things that attracted me to TCMA was its multi-faceted character. Fighting is not the measure, just a yardstick.

Now, I'm not saying all styles are the same, or that all teachers would advocate the same techniques, but this is what I have learned. My credentials are not as impressive as many, but better than most, and I am in no way the most dangerous man alive, but I have 30 years of experience to draw upon.

Fundamentally, kung fu fighting is different to "Sparring" in that it should last but seconds, not "rounds". To change the mentality is your first step. There is not supposed to be give and take, simply execution. You live or you die in 20 seconds. If you survive at a disadvantage, you regroup for another attack if you can.

You can even assume it starts with somebody hitting you somewhere that hurts, that you are disoriented and disadvantaged, on the back foot.

Under these circumstances, training, habit and instinct are what take over, and perhaps get you the breathing room to make a concerted attack. Fighting blind, triggered by touch, if need be.

Forms training, if done properly and throughly will get you these instincts. What you will not get is "ring-craft" : the ability to size up an opponent, position them to your advantage, dummy and/or set them up; to judge the speed and agression of an angry man; to stifle your fear, adrenaline and pain towards a focused attack; to land a blow on target, with power and to physically dominate another human being.

So, to become this "uber-mench" of personal combat, what path can you take? Lots of people do un-protected light sparring, generic Kick-boxing (gloves, cup, mouthguard or Heavily protected), full-contact attacks against an heavily protected opponent, or set-sparring of pre-arranged techniques. Each has advantages and disadvantages. There are psychological training techniques as well. To difficult, and you want a shortcut? Yea, don't we all.

The trick is to take the best from each, and lose the weaknesses. And, then, how do you do this? Well, welcome to the world of Kung Fu. Now you know why there are lots of kung fu guys that get killed in the ring, but can't be beat in a bar.

And never forget, its not the style, but the practitioner. Size and strength can be countered with strategy, but it ain't easy as just saying it.