New Chen Tai Chi/Wing Chun combo trend?

[YongChun]

I have noticed more and more Wing Chun people getting interested in Chen Tai Chi. Someone from the Sonny Tang lineage said his master was very good at Chen Tai Chi now and many of the students have looked into it as well. I would be interested to hear about hands on meetings between Wing Chun stylists and Chen Tai Chi stylists.

[Ernie]

my training partner has been doing chen style for over 12 years now , hawkins also is a tai chi teacher

i have seen some real good skill come out of this as long as it's keep combat oriented

both hawkins and my partner think i should learn as well they say there is to much fire in me

i told them it was the chili beans

[ntc]

Well... I have been practicing Wing Chun for quite a while now, and it has been and still is my primary art. However, over the years, I have also started training in Chen Tai Chi, primarily for its health benefits.

As most of you will likely agree, the Wing Chun forms themselves, though really wonderful in helping to build structure, techniques, timing, footwork, etc., they are much lacking in cardiovascular training. I have had to supplement my WC training with additional fitness program to supplement the cardio portion. Chen Tai Chi has really helped me to maintain a high cardio fitness level, as well as keep me in tip top shape.

But in terms of mixing Chen and WC for martial application, it is not as straight forward. The two are contradicting in many ways, some being key areas... for example, WC's elbows are inward while Chen's are outwards; footwork is drastically different; Chen uses circles for arms, usually big ones, wheras WC is mostly direct and straightforward. I could go on, but despite the differences between the two styles, I have really enjoyed training in both. I think the two combined has done wonders for myself as far as both my martial and fitness training are concerned, not to mention staying healthy and in tip top shape.

[Miles Teg]

Not all W.C has the elbows in. Also some, like my one, focus on circular movements quite a lot.

[Hendrik]

But in terms of mixing Chen and WC for martial application, it is not as straight forward. The two are contradicting in many ways,-----


I dont think they contradic. they are just doing it in a different ways.


some being key areas... for example, WC's elbows are inward while Chen's are outwards;-------


This is another Taboo area about Wing Chun Kuen. What is the reason the elbow has to inward? Strategic? physical by nature? or just sifu said? or Does every Wing Chun Kuen lineages' elbow are inward?



Chen uses circles for arms, usually big ones, wheras WC is mostly direct and straightforward. ------

This is also a Taboo area about Wing Chun Kuen. IS Wing Chun really direct and straightforward? or Wing Chun did circle in a different way?
My take is Wing Chun is doing Circle in a different way. Thus,
Wing Chun is different then the chen Taiji circle reel silk or shao lin YiJingJing's twist.


If one look at Chen Ching's reel silk drawing, one can see this Chen reel silk method is not that close to the design requirement of SLT. Same with the Shao Lin's YiJingJing.


Shao Lin's Yijingjing were training a reverse Kung compare with SLT. This hold a very important key to differentiate Shao Lin is not the core engine of SLT. because the power generation is in reversed phase yes. reverse phase. So, if one uses the Yijingjing to power SLT or Wing Chun, a few things will happen. Such as the stance get lower and wider.... broken arrow.... etc
Cant use the White Crane of Fujian Sanchin type of power generator either the YJKYM of SLT doesnt provide that type of based platform.



I think the two combined has done wonders ----

I dont think one can combine them I think people had used a mix Tai Ji and Wing Chun since 1960. another taboo, people just not talk about this Localization Evolution.


Why do I said Taiji and WCK cannot combine? because SLT will look different if they combine and certain things in SLT will not be activate. same with when Wing Chun mix with Hung gar or shao lin arts certain things in SLT changes.

Why do I said Taiji and WCK has mixed Localized evolved for a long time? Those older generation who cannot trap power from SLT usually go out and get the power from Taiji --- particulaly the Wu small frame. It is a good mix Localization Evolution.

Certainly, other of WCK localization evolution involve in the mix of Hung Gar or CLF.


Just some thoughts. It is always very interesting to look into the similarity and differences. the different localization evolution. Yes, there are DNA in each different style and different localization evolution.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Hendrik,

Just blowing off some time at work, so I'll give you my thoughts on this.


This is another Taboo area about Wing Chun Kuen. What is the reason the elbow has to inward? Strategic? physical by nature? or just sifu said? or Does every Wing Chun Kuen lineages' elbow are inward?

The way we practice, keeping your elbows in has a number of benefits, including:
- a more well guarded center
- being more compact, making it easier to slip into someone else's center
- probably the most important for me, is that it provides a better connection with my knees and the floor

Our elbows are in, but not with undue tension, although at the beginning stages you can't help it. After time, our elbows are naturally in, and still relaxed. I find that I am able to deliver much more solidly with my elbows in than my elbows out.

Of course, this may only apply to the way we practice. There are certainly many others with well guarded centers, compact, and well connected hits without having their elbows in. Just different ways of training.

Regards,
Alan

[Hendrik]

Alan,

Thanks. What you post sure have alots of benifits.

however, there a some which place the elbow very close to the center line which might not be physically healty.... cases.

And there are different cases about keep the elbow in vesus keep the elbow sink....




even the taiji people has different ways of handling the elbow. some sink, some 45 degree pointing to ground......

As soon as one knows what one is doing I think that is great. sometimes the problem is a slight key missing the whole picture is all off. Not an easy subject.

hendrik

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Hendrik,

Quite right. There is a danger in taking things too literally. Most people, myself included, can't place our elbows at the dead center while still being relaxed. Since I can't do it, I can't tell you if it would be better. But for me, there is an optimal point. I get a better connection keeping my elbows in further than the typical Taiji "sunken" elbow. I guess you can say it is "in and sunk." But pass a certain point I lose the connection and become tense.

But things like this are difficult to talk about and explain if you haven't experienced something similar before. Even face to face, hand to hand, it is not easy to pick up for everyone. It may be why some people take "elbows at the center" a little too literally.

Regards,
Alan

[ntc]

I agree with Zhuge that it is literally meaningless to try to discuss the elbow situation in a forum. The physical nature of the elbow, in, how far in, etc., is second nature when compared with how the energy is directed towards an opponent. Its all in the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit as well.... much easier to show by example and help one to feel the direction of the force (in all combat situation) than to discuss. Like Zhuge said.... don't take it literally... understand it and the kuen kuit will make sense.

Regarding my own posting, Henrik, you have misunderstood me regarding the mixing of Chen and WC. I mentioned that WC has been and still is my primary art, and that I do Chen to supplement some of my cardio training. When I am in martial application, I am mainly in WC, although I certainly see a lot of strengths in Chen regarding fighting application. I certainly have seen it done very effectively by my Chen teachers. But, like you said as well, I agree that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to combine Tai Chi and Wing Chun, Chen or not. I don't mix the two together.... rather the two complete the spectrum of my kung fu training, along with several aspects of Qi Gong, including those from the Taoist family. My point was that, by practising both Chen and Wing Chun (in addition to the Qi Gong exercises), I have benefitted tremendously in my life, especially from a health and fitness point of view.

[Hendrik]

Zhuge Liang,

I agree.


NTC,

Understood!

My view was set to view from the angle of frame. So, I post my opinion that way. no biggy. just a view from frame angle.

Thanks.

[Vajramusti]

Responding to Ray's original query- rather than debating other posts.
Chen style is the mother style of taiji. It stayed fairly closeted in Chen village for a long time. It influenced Yang style which in turn went through changes and you have the two Wus and the Sun Lu Tangs hybrid synthehsis. Chen fake took chen to beijing-before WW2...and the Cultural revolution resulted in mistreatment of some Chen stylists. Later after Mao it began to go abroad. Findinga really good instructor in Chen is not simple
as in wing chun as well.
Many martial folks have become interested in taiji not just some wc folks. Doc Fai Wong in SF teaches Choy li fut and yang tcc.
Some fairly well known karate people including Kanazawa have been doing taiji. It is spreading in Japan. Apparently people seek a more relaxed approach to whatever they are doing.
But IMHO- Chen taiji is not necessary for improving one's wing chun. Both Chen and WC havetheir own details in the mixture of soft and hard and it is possible to be very soft and fluid in wing chun- and use it for health purposes and chi gung as well.
Many wc folks who do taiji still look like wc folks doing taiji- the reverse is also true for ingrained structural reasons.
A problem is that in China specially in the cities-HK etc- people including wc folks have bad lifestyles- without doinga laundry list---combination of excessive smoking and liquor has brought down and continues to bring down wc folks specially living with urban stress- which continues to spread. WC done right is good for health too....not just the fighting part.
One can use wing chun for cardio too- depending on frequency,
intensity and duration.
But taiji structural dynamics is quite different from wing chun. Both use lines and circles- just differently and in the details. Both have their different "jongs". For self defense and close quarters work- wc hasa clear edge over taiji. But if you dont know your wc works a top quality chen stylist can throw you and hurt you in the process.Fortunately, most taji folks are still just waving their hands,
If you play the chen game a top chen person will throw a wc person.... not so if you play a good wc game.
Ray asked about anecdotes I think. I was present ata taiji push hand competition when one of the best chen stylists in the US
was matched witha wc friend of mine-call him JM. JM held his own-
but the Chen stylist complained to the taiji judges that JM was using external strength- a common accusation- the judges gave the chen stylist the edge. But JM knew and I knew that JM held his own even in push hands..
On the elbow- the positioning of the elbow in all of wc structural dynamics is very important--- but folks sometimes misread the sayings and force their elbows into unnatural positions.

Hi Ray.

Joy

[CFT]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
On the elbow- the positioning of the elbow in all of wc structural dynamics is very important--- but folks sometimes misread the sayings and force their elbows into unnatural positions.So what are the natural positions? I thought that it was elbow down and on (as far as possible) the centreline for something like tan sau, fook sau, etc. Only lan sau, bong sau and biu sau are off the centreline.

It gets really confusing for newbies like me to only hear half the picture, so some clarification would be most welcome.

And then someone like Ernie says that there are no shapes so it doesn't matter where the elbow is. Sorry for paraphrasing/misquoting ;)

[PaulH]

Hi Chee,

I think you may have misread Ernie's posts. Elbow needs certain positional and structural elements to have power. It has a shape but it may not what people commonly believe! Elbow down for instance is done so that you can link it to the hip for body power. =)

Regards,
PH

[Matrix]

Hi Chee,

I think Paul is right with respect to the interpretation of Ernie's remarks. I would also add that Ernie is pointing out that some folks "force" their elbows in to an extreme which can have the negative side effect of of actually compromising your overall structure. For example, in this case it may be seen that the shoulders are compromised in order to get the elbow into the extreme position.

Bill

[Miles Teg]

I agree with Matrix.


CFT
Dont be confused. Youll find that there are huge differences in the way W.C is practiced in different schools.


I used to be a believer in the elbows in idea, now I dont see any benefits.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by CFT
So what are the natural positions? CFT,
To me, natural position refers to staying within your natural range of motion, or put another way, not forced beyond your natural range (as I mentioned earlier). Your range of motion can change over time with increased flexibilty, but I'm not sure that is really required. Personally I am not very flexible, and I can still cover the centerline without the need to force my elbow in........


Originally posted by CFT
I thought that it was elbow down and on (as far as possible) the centreline for something like tan sau, fook sau, etc. Only lan sau, bong sau and biu sau are off the centreline. I would say towards the centerline or approaching it, not actually on it. When you Chi Sao, your training partner should be able to let you know if your elbow is in far enough. If it's not, I would expect a find a fist in my chest in short order. ;) Even then, be careful not to corrupt your shoulders and structure in an attempt to overcompensate to get your elbow onto the centerline.

If you get sloppy with your hands and just let them float into position, you may find that your elbow is left floating out just a bit. Don't be sloppy!! I'm speaking from experience here, not condemning anyone in particular.

Everyone is biomechanically different. Wing Chun works for all of us. It is fluid, not rigid. So don't get hung up on some of these "absolute-isms". Don't focus too much on rigid postions and shapes, or you may become myopic. See the Big Picture and be dynamic...

Bill

[Nick Forrer]

One of my class mates (who sometimes lurks here) made an interesting comment to me when i asked him what he thought about chen tai chi. He said that when he saw chen xiaowang in action there was very little observable difference between him and WSL/Clive (our teacher) in action and another top Xsing I guy whose name escapes me i.e. he said they were all fast, powerful, fluid and relaxed. I think ultimately every good MA has the same destinaton just the route they take to get there is different in each case.

[YongChun]

Thanks for the detailed interesting post Joy. Of course thank you everyone who commented.

In the 70's I did a lot of Yang style Tai Chi myself and wasn't too bad at pushing hands. I think because of my Tai Chi skills I could handle my Wing Chun classmates more easily. The aspects that helped were the relaxation, the sensitivity, the feeling and flow, the stickiness, the rootedness, the versatility of the hands and arms and the ability to do relaxed hits. Tai Chi is also has a centre searching game. One lady I taught Tai Chi to and later Wing Chun always matched any of the male students in Chi sau because of her Tai Chi transferred over skill and maybe because she was very talented too.

However against my Wing Chun teacher or against other good Wing Chun teachers these skills did not work. The reason is that the Wing Chun people were more economical than I was. My Tai Chi level was lower than their Wing Chun level. When I looked at myself doing Wing Chun years later I could see that I was doing sort of a Tai Chi Wing Chun and not a Wing Chun Wing Chun. Likewise, It is not uncommon to see Karate Wing Chun from previous hardstyle of any kind practitioners too.

The defects I noticed were that my elbows drifted too much and the stance swayed too much. However in good Tai Chi the stance work is also very economical and the elbows although out don't need to move much either. So it may in fact be that my comparison had little to do with the arts but rather with the skill level or attributes of fighting.

In this regard I saw on some newsgroup that someone attacked a Tai Chi person and the Tai Chi person just punched the attacker in the face and then said Tai Chi really worked. Then on an Aikidp forumn a practitioner was attacker by someone on the street and the Aikido person punched the guy in the face too. His comment about that was that Aikido really works.

Perhaps just training anything will help you punch the attacker in the face more easily. Whether an art really works as intended cannot be judged so easily from a single fight. Everything works against people with a lower level of skill. Whether you can defend yourself or use your Wing Chun really depends on who you are fighting. Furthermore no matter how much skill we have we still also have limits.

[Nick Forrer]

CFT/CHEE

On elbows. One of WSL's famous sayings is dont be a slave to the elbow, the elbow is your slave. I will try and explain what this means. However, it is difficult to do this over the internet.

The elbow has a parameter i.e. a scope or range within which it can move and yet still stay connected to the stance. By 'connected to the stance' I mean that any correctly directed force applied against it by your enemy (i.e. your arm/bridge), will be channelled down through your stance and into the ground . This is possible because of the specific biomechanical alignment of the six points (wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee and foot) that WC uses.

The inner limit of the range/parameter of the elbow is as far on centre as you can get it without compromising your posture i.e. without bringing the shoulder down. The outer limit is in line with hip - notice the elbow is still pointed down here...anymore though and the elbow will come outside the line of the body and will cease to point to the floor. If this happens you will loose your connection to your stance and your enemy will be able to force through your bridge very easily.

By way of example..... lets say you have a cross arm bridge with your opponent i.e. your right hand against his right hand (a la Enter the Dragon).
Now Many people use pak sau or lap sau to clear the barrier but if you have good elbows you dont need to. All you need to do is bring you elbow in to its inner limit to get a clear line of attack.

However sometimes that won't be sufficient. So whenever you bring your elbow in to the inner limit and you still cant get a clear line of attack, the extra work needs to be done by the feet i.e. to change your angle and position in relation to that of your opponent. But two important points are these: a) you must stay facing throughout and b) you must keep the pry/forward pressure on with the arm that is in contact- otherwise they can cut you off as you are moving. This becomes clear later when you get on to the jong.
In fact one of the concepts of the jong is that it represents the stiffest strongest opponent you are ever likely to meet and so it forces you to navigate it with your footwork, to find openings in its defences and to take advantage of them without interacting with your opponents force/limbs.

Another example which uses the outer limit (in line with the hip) is this: Say you are on the inside i.e. your opponents arm is on top of yours, and your opponent lifts his elbow to punch your in the head. A lot of people here will chase the hand i.e. they will use their bong like a karate rising block to stop it. However a more positive solution is just to punch back towrds his head but keep the elbow out so that it monitor and checks his elbow. If you do this right you will hit him but he wont be able to hit you.

In summary, then, you dont always want your elbow in. However you do need to be able to bring your elbow in when it is required. I know this is a bit confusing but it really does depend on the circumstances and you cant afford to be dogmatic about it.

Hope this helps

Nick

[yylee]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Why do I said Taiji and WCK has mixed Localized evolved for a long time? Those older generation who cannot trap power from SLT usually go out and get the power from Taiji --- particulaly the Wu small frame. It is a good mix Localization Evolution.


Really? I must be too young to witness all these DNA blending.

I'm no expert in TC, however I do admire Wu style small frame. I think it is a rare branch of Wu TCC. The movements looks more square, and it has very good use of body mechanics. One can hardly see how energy is generated, nor can one see how incoming energy is dissolved, very subtle.

IMO, I agree Wu SF and WC can be a good mix, both are very compact, small movements. In fact I almost got tempted by a SiHing/Dai to learn it a few years ago. The thought that held me back was the Wu style stance, I couldn't imagine myself mixing YJKYM with a TC stance. Of course that's just me...

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yylee
Really? I must be too young to witness all these DNA blending.



why not? hahahha. I implant a spyware in the Woodern dummy. So I can see all what happen close door. hehehehe

[Vajramusti]

"I implant a spyware in the Woodern dummy. So I can see all what happen close door."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One may find that some closed door wing chun should never have seen the light of day.

New closed door wing chun keeps coming out of the woodwork.:-

[CFT]

Thanks to Paul, Bill, Miles and Nick for the info. I'm digesting what you've advised and it's a tasty morsel :)

I'm aware of not being too dogmatic about things, but when you're just starting out like I am it's nice to know the "proper" way of doing things. I believe it is only when you are comfortable and capable in what you are doing, that you can start "breaking the rules".

[anerlich]

Nick, that was a good explanation.

"One may find that some closed door wing chun should never have seen the light of day."

Now ain't THAT the truth ...

[Tom Kagan]

"What do you call 10,000 books written about Ving Tsun? Tai Chi. Maybe I'm too cheap to buy 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too stupid to read 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too lazy to write 10,000 books. But, Tai Chi is a great art - what the f@ck are you doing with Ving Tsun if what you want is Tai Chi?" -- Moy Yat (in one of his more cantankerous moods)

:)

[YongChun]

While we are on the topic of Tai Chi, see some Tai Chi masters in action:

Tai Chi Masters
http://www.judoinfo.com/video5.htm

and some Karate master in:
Concentration

[Miles Teg]

Aelward had some good things to say about someone in his school who learnt a bit of Chen Tai Chi when away somewhere and then came back to Wing CHun and sa some great improvement.