Chain Punches: for training or fighting?

[EmptyCup]

Hello you all :)

I notice that when people think of Wing Chun, they instantly think of chain punches, and discussions on the merits of our "signature" attacking method inevitably develop.

However, from what I've learned, chain punching is actually a techniques to help one train punching and is not a technique that is used exactly as we train. By this I mean I was taught never to just try to pull of four or five straight punches at opponents but rather to always gum, lap, pak with each punch to avoid danger.

Chain punching is used in the JKD camp as a fighting technique, but as far as I know, Wing Chunners weren't taught to use it that way. I see the advantage being that you quickly overwhelm the opponent with a flurry of aggressive attacks yet there is a chance of trading blows and opening yourself completely when chain punching away.

What are your opinions? I'm open to friendly discussion, no flaming please :)

[Martial Joe]

Chain Punches are for fighting and training...

thank you for your time...

[EmptyCup]

Martial Joe, you're beginnning to sound like your buddy WhippingHand here :)

please elaborate! Were you taught to use it as a fighting technique? What about the cons? Do you think the way I was taught is better or worse?

C'mon, enlighten me :)

[OdderMensch]

I've been taught that it's a great idea to "chain punch" 3-4 times if the opponent is stuned or the hands are otherwise neutriized, However rare the oppertunity.

I've alway thought that you fight like you train. So WC techs that you train with you fight with.

[whippinghand]

Chain punch is to train the one punch. If you have to chain punch in a fight, you're Wing Chun no good.

[Martial Joe]

Well whipping hand is wrong...


EmptyCup~ I answered all that by what I said...

[Martial Joe]

I will elaborate why WhippingHand is wrong.

He is wrong because if you have the opprotunity to punch some one a few times in a row chain punching is the way to go...It is the quickest and most direct way to land spontanious punches...

[cobra]

If the way is free, go forward!
Chain Punching is one of the best protective measures you can employ.

Just my 4 cents!!

[Martial Joe]

Ko Him Now knows his stuff...

[whippinghand]

If you have to use more than one punch, then your punch is no good. If your punch is no good then your Wing Chun is not good.

[EmptyCup]

Whipping Hand

I agree with you that chain punching should be used for training the punch , but I seriously doubt the realisticness and saneness of trusting in one punch to defeat an opponent.

Martial Joe

Chain punching works well against inexperienced fighters...good ones can take both arms and drop you into a lock or choke, kick you, or just step out of the way and punch you. Or even as you're scoring hits, the guy could just get a shot in with EITHER free hand.

The way is never fully clear in a fight- that's why we train trapping of an opponent's limbs. Otherwise why train chi sao? Why don't we just say to hell with contact and trapping, just chain punch any opponent to death?

Guys, I'm just going on what I believe currently. My opinion might change after you've pointed out otherwise but please try to convince me of your views. I've changed my views in the past so I'm open to it now as well. I just know from experience that chain punching is dangerous against experienced fighters, and punching someone once and expecting him to drop for good is too much confidence in one's abilities for comfort. The one hit knockout doesn't exist because there's always somebody who can take more.

[OdderMensch]

....what Sifu often calls "cumlitive blunt trama." One good shot to the face may work, but im not gonna wait and find out. The next attack should be ready to launch as the first one hits home, and so on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you have to use more than one punch, then your punch is no good. If your punch is no good then your Wing Chun is not good.
[/quote]

I've very little doubt that a well trained, un interupted punch could ko an ill prepared foe, but that doesnt mean that the next one isn't still right behind the first.

Oh and the motion of (forgive my spelling) "len wan kuen" is comanly seen as chain punchs, but they could as well be palms, bius, bils

[cobra]

If your opponent "takes both of your arms", then the way is not free. If he locks them, then you are not being soft enough, allowing your chi sao to work. If he steps out of the way, you should be right there with him or your footwork sucks.

Just my 4 cents!!

[EmptyCup]

all your points are valid but why open yourself up unnecessarily? you're inviting the opportunity for you opponent to do these things when you don't need to. Trading blows is a legit concern as most Wing Chun guys can't take hits: "teet kiu sau, bor lay sum how" we have iron bridges but glass chests. Other styles such as Hung Gar and Muay Thai use hit conditioning as part of the style...Wing Chun practioners tend to think they can avoid getting hit if their technique is good enough. Not very realistic as even guys like Bruce Lee, Wong Sheung Leung, Joe lewis, Chuck Norris got hit. And I doubt most martial artists train like they did...

[Martial Joe]

Whipping Hand~You are right...I am sorry...


I wasted everyones time,well my wing chun is not good then...

Whipping Hand...do you only need one punch?

[Martial Joe]

Thanks for saying that...I have just learned alot from you...


I know exactly what you are talking about and I realize how wrong I was and I feal like an idiot...


Can I email you...

I can see you getting popular already... :eek:

[dzu]

Lien Wan Kuen is the concept of consecutive striking, or chaining together a series of strikes. It is not necessarily limited to punching. I can use the concept of Lien Wan Kuen with my kicks, my knees, elbows, palm strikes, etc.

It is not just restricted to just one type of tool either. I can use a punch with the left hand, a horizontal elbow with my right arm, followed by a right shoulder butt. That is also lien wan kuen since I have strung together multiple strikes based upon what the opponent has given me. It is tied in closely with the concept of Mun Sao where each strike we do is a question. The opponent's answer tells us what the next strike is. We decipher the opponent's answer with our sensitivity.

Like a good billiard player who can control all the balls and the entire table, we seek to control our opponent's center and his actions through touch so that we can set him up for each strike. Sometimes one strike is enough and sometimes we make a misjudgement, the opponent is better than we thought, or perhaps we slipped on some wet grass. In any case, we need to forget about the previous attempt and move on to the next one. Only with a clear mind and control of both ourselves and the opponent can we accomplish this. When our sensitivity detects an opening, we unleash the floodgates so that the little crack is wedged open with our body structure and cannot be closed again. Maintain the pressure so that the opponent cannot recover and is always one step behind in retreat.

Too often lien wan kuen is expressed solely as chain punching which is only one view of the concept. Worse yet, in the majority of WC that I have seen, it is expressed as an entry technique before contact has even been established or any openings have been made. I have been guilty of this during the earlier stage of my WC training.

IMHO.

regards,

Dz

[This message was edited by dzu on 07-15-01 at 11:34 PM.]

[Seeker of the Way]

...are highly effective. Seen it myself. Someone ****ed off a Wing Tsun practicioner (they tried to rob him). He chain-punched first man back, setting him up for a stomp kick to the knee and another chainpunch up against a lamp post put out potential robber #2.

That's what I call effective... At least against untrained opponents. Might not work as well against other people with combat training.

Peace,
SotW.

"I know Kung Fu."

[old jong]

As I see it,the wing chun punch is designed to attack and defend at the same time by occuping the centerline.It does not mean it is wise to open the machine like a sub-machine gun!(two or three punches are already hard to score) We should always remember to "hit when you should...do not hit when you should not!"...Fight with your mind first! ;)

[mun hung]

What's up, Fellas? Been off the forum lately because of a busy work schedule. Wanted to throw in a couple before returning to work.

The chain punch can definitely be used in a street fight, but not the way some people use it - charging in from across the room chainpunching IMHO is wrong. These people get knocked out. The one way to ruin a nice technique is through lousy application. There is a time and place for everything.

My opinion (which has worked for me) is to chain punch after initial contact is made (close range) and sticking to your opponent by "pushing the horse" at the same time until the opponent is subdued. Two to three solid punches is usually adequate, unless the person you're fighting is a real beast who can take multiple punches in the face. ;)

[wongfeilung809]

i thought it was arms like iron, body like cotton,and head of glass...
simpleangles

[EmptyCup]

mine is the shorter version :)

the traditional saying is "iron bridges, bean-curd body, glass head"

as to the way you can use chain punches:

there is nothing wrong in chain punching if each punch sticks to the bridges of your opponents hand. "sik kiu da" is perfectly fine. For instance, two-three punches over the trapped bridges at, say around the opponent's stomach area is fine because both arms are accounted for...

[Chum Kil]

I was taught always to follow-up with at least 3 chain punches. I was also told by someone that chain punching can get you back on your center if you've been attacked from different angles/more than one opponent.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[TjD]

one of the ways ive been shown to chain punch sorta works like this

if you have your opponent locked up, or your controlling hime with a wu sau, pak sau or whatever, hit him with one hand, replace your wu or pack or lon sau with the other hand, hit, replace hit etc

so basically, why bother returning your hand to chamber, when it can be better used to control your opponents body

so you just switch your controlling and hitting hand; raining blows away on your opponent - without losing control of his body and being like a machine gun

why have your hand sitting in front of your chest when instead you can be using it to control or debalance your opponent

peace
travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[EmptyCup]

that's precisely my point. Why leave both your opponent's arms unaccounted for? Why not punch while doing pak, gam, lap, etc with each punch?

[dzu]

It is possible to control the opponent's bridges using just your punches. The distance and positioning of your body have to be close to the opponent and your sensitivity has to be developed. At the least, your elbow position, body structure, and pressing energy should sink their bridges or pin them. No hands needed. The elbow has to be down and directed by the body and horse. If the elbow is completely straight, then there is no leverage to control the opponent's bridges and path to ground is broken.

This is all based upon what the opponent does and how he reacts of course.

regards,

Dzu

[Chum Kil]

We call this trapping. It is taught at the intermediate level. At our school a beginner will follow-up with chain punches, an intermediate with trapping skills, advanced trapping skills........

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[whippinghand]

I understand it is difficult to perceive the one punch as realistic. That's by today's martial standards, which are very low compared to the martial arts of our predecessors.

The one punch is the goal. (Efficiency)

[whippinghand]

As a pursuer of the ideal Wing Chun, the one punch is my goal.

[Martial Joe]

It is my goal also...I know of a man who can do this...he is friends with my sifu..cant wait to train with him and have him throw me around the room like a feather...my sifu said the man gave him whipplash once...


Martial Joe http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/new/hkp.gif

[OdderMensch]

One hit kill!?!?!?

Not the Wing Chun I learn. I would never assume that a single strike would do my opponent in. I alway go for multiple hits.

Granted the one "street fight" that i have good second hand knowledge of, the first hit feled the guy, but the next two were right behind just in case.

We were the other day disscusing the Karatika's theory of the "one hit kill" and how they will take a few non-lethal blows in order to get it, but im just not there.

How in a fight do you know that first hit, even a good hit, ended your opponents will to fight? its a split second situation. I would alreay have the next attack on the way.

But hey thats ust me. :D

[Martial Joe]

When every punch you throw has enough power to make a guy quite or fall to the ground is really good.If you have to hit the guy 10 times it isnt good,way to long...


I just realized this a while ago...

[benny]

i think people get the wrong idea when they hear of chain punches like the bloke just runs in raining punches.
its for after the trap or what ever. but i read about blocking and hittting with both arms all the time. it reminds me of a karate drill. block,block ,block and hit. why not use the same hand to block and attack.
wong sheung leung said the hardest hitter he had ever meet was barry lee and he still tells us to hit atleast three times or until he falls. but once an opening is made then why let it close and have to make anouther. by chain punching properly you should be able to keep the hole open while controling the other persons hand. :D

[whippinghand]

Key words: "not the Wing Chun I learned"

[TjD]

i always thought wing chun was about ending the fight as QUICKLY as possible

it doesnt get much quicker than a 1 hit KO... now why would this not be part of your wing chun?

personally, if im in a life or death situation and i have to use my wing chun, itll be a biu to the eyes, some strike to the throat or an elbow to the temple. no messing around chain punching, ill hit them to make sure they dont get back up so i can walk away


peace
travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[EmptyCup]

Real fights are seldom that simple. There are numerous factors that affect your performance negatively. In the kwoon under a relaxed environment, we all have perfect moves executed with perfect form. We have our one-hit KOs and lethal dim mak techniques. In a real fight, you're lucky to get in a half-decent kick that's not jammed, or maybe two blocks.

It's unrealistic to always expect to drop the guy with the "one lethal hit". Bius can miss and jam your fingers against a cheekbone, elbows are very close-range and can't just be thrown without some hits to open the guy up beforehand. Even most of the blocks such as bong, pak, kwun are hardly used.

People who believe that they can drop a guy with one hit are living in a fantasy land. you can train to do that, but just don't ecpect that to work in a real fight. Wing Chun is about multiple hits, combos, trapping and general overkill. It's not about one hit. Otherwise why bother training anything but a strike? Why the combos? That violates Wing Chun principles.

[TjD]

because you have to get that strike in

your oppoenent isnt going to sit there and roll with your hands

just because my first biu misses his eyes doesnt mean my second one will

you'd have to be a fool to stop hitting them after one strike and wait to see what the consequences are... training to be able to KO in one hit is a good thing, because in a fight youll hit that much harder

in a fight you should have no expectations - neither thinking you can down them in one blow or that it will take multiple hits

in a fight you want it to end it as quickly as possible, so you misunderstood me.. i said nothing about expectations, i said that i want to end the fight as quickly as possible, and this is one means to that end
why waste your time throwing out punches when you could be striking some vital area or KOing them?


training and reality are always different - but we still train


peace
travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[dzu]

IMHO if you can't generate the power to drop someone in one hit, then your mechanics are in need of some work. This is not to say that I strive for the Karateka mentality of one hit one kill, but the ability to generate enough power to do the job should be in EVERY punch.

Some people believe that WC uses speed and less power to overwhelm the opponent so that each hit adds to the previous so that the cumulative power is enough to drop someone. The problem with this is that if the first punch is weak, the second one won't land, and neither will the third. The first strike has to have enough power to disrupt and damage their center and set up the next strike.

Regardless of if I need one strike or 5 strikes, each strike should have sufficent and equal power to drop my opponent if I connect solidly. Sometimes, however, the opponent doesn't want to stand there and take it so we need to use the tools of the WC system to open the door. Just because it's in the system doesn't mean we have to use it, but only if the situation requires it.

regards,

Dzu

[whippinghand]

EmptyCup, the concept of "real fight" that most people have, is not a matter of life and death. We should be thinking in terms of life & death situation, not play time.

[OdderMensch]

You say Tomato, I say ketchup :D We both do WC and its all about livley disscuion, not I'm right so you must be wrong.

I guess i may have taken it a bit personaly, the idea that my WC is "no good" because i train to Chain Punch.

Now i agree 100% that WC should end the fight as quickly as possible, with the least movement, but I have still been trained to use multiple strikes even chan punchs if the oppertunity is there.

I've been looking at Videos that contain KO's and in all of them the guy "wobbles" for a second before falling over. I think even with the brain "shutdown" for a bit the body remains standing on instint till the musscles relax or another outside force acts on the body.

SO lets assume the ideal punch is thrown and I am "on" and catch it with an noi-mon-choi to the soft strucures of the face. The jaring smashs his brain into the back of his skull, causeing a black out. Before it registers to me that he is KO'd my next two have come in unopposed and i am in range to start on the knee/ elbow/ shoulder strikes i love so much.

Remeber WC is desiened to be quick and effecent but also to protect oneself. If my first punch did not have the desred effect and the guy responds with a centerline attack (say a jab/cross) then my punch becomes a pak, jum or oi-mon-choi and we continue on.

Dont forget, to register as a KO

1)his brain must "shutdown for a bit due to blunt trama (ie my fist to his face)

2)i must see this happen

3) my notoriusly slow brain must process the image, connect it to KO's that ive seen, and....

4) then i can stop hitting him.

[mun hung]

Of course it's possible to finish a fight with just one punch, but is it realistic to think that all fights should end that way?

I know some brutes that won't go down with baseball bats. There are some pretty tough people walking around on this planet and I think it would be a grave mistake to underestimate the kind of punches they can take.

If chainpunching is just for training, why don't we Wing Chun practitioners train punching one arm at a time instead of rapid punching from both? There is a reason for the way things are done. There is an application for everything that is done. There is also a time and place for everything we do. Application.

And chainpunching is not just used by beginners. It is taught to beginners. A seasoned practitioner knows when and how to apply it. Beginners are the ones who don't understand how to apply it. ;)

[whippinghand]

You guys are thinking "fight", so, of course you will train with that in mind. If you don't think that you will be able to finish it in one punch, then you WON'T train to be able to, and therefore, you WON'T ever be able to do it, unless by fluke. It's not enough to think that you can do it; it's not enough to want to do it. It's not about the fight, it's about the death. It's about knowing you can do it.

It goes without saying, for the 20th time, that you should have your hands ready to keep going.

[benny]

i think you are mostly saying the same thing. everyone knows that you should throw the punch and practice to throw it as hard as you can. In a seminar i asked barry lee about the fastest punching thing. he said that he can do as many as he needs to knock them out.
we are just saying that to expect a one hit punch is stupid. if one is all i need then great but if i dont keep on going i would lose the opening that i already had. i usually hit the person till he hits the ground. most have been knockedout after the 2-3 one but who cares. how many times do you watch boxing and the guy falls and gets start back up. now its good with a referee to say you won but ive tryed this and they get up and keep on punching. so when some one makes me fight(which i dont like to do) i hit him say 6 or more times before he hits the ground so he wont get up til Im in a taxis on my way home. ;)

[rogue]

Just to clear up some karate misconceptions.

1. Karate is not block, block punch. It's more strike the opponents weapons, and then counter-attack. A well done "block" should do damage all by itself, sometimes breaking the strikers arm.

2. Karate and even trad. TKD use many rapid multiple "blocks" and strikes with the same hand.

3. The concept of one punch, one kill goes along with the less sexy Ichigo, Ichie (One encounter, one chance). It's not so much a technique but a mindset to take advantage of the moment.

Thanks for your time.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[whippinghand]

If you're not training for a one hit punch, then you're "stupidly" training.

Don't forget that martial arts, including Wing Chun, was meant for the battlefield.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Sorry but I figured I owuld jump in for a moment. I understand everyones views and the only thing I would like to say is to Whipping Hand in regards to implying someone traing to hit or rely on more than one punch is stupid.

Whipping Hand, I do not know how many "real" fights you have been in but I can tell you from experience that it is unrealistic to expect one punch to finish the job on everyone. As Benny pointed out there are some who won't go down no matter what you hit them with. I know of a guy who was shot five times in the stomach with a .38 at close range and he killed his attacker and recovered in the hospital. I may be a little off here but I would rather take anyones best punch then a bullet :p

My point being that ones mental attitude plays a lot in how much punishment one can take. Ones attitude is also important in training to inflict such punishment. I think that one should train to expend the most power you can with your punch but to expect one to do the job is a little foolhardy, I think I would keep a few more in reserve, just in case.

I have been hit in the head with a 40 bottle which required quite a few stitches to close. Guess what? I did not fall down or in any way have trouble reacting to the attack. I kicked the living crap out of the guy. I am not that tough nor am I a big guy so I know that if I can take a hit to the head which causes quite a bit of trauma without falling then there are plenty who can take far worse. As I said I feel it is your mental attitude which will determine your reaction to a blow. I have often heard it said that when one is shot or stabbed what is important is how the body reacts to the injury not what weapon was used ot inflict it.

Train for a one punch kill but keep in mind that sometimes more than one is needed. Keep practicing those chain punches for those times.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

My use of the word "stupid" was in reply to benny's post(as noted by my subject heading), which used the word "stupid".

I don't generally refer to things as "stupid". I was simply replying to him in terms that HE would understand.

[whippinghand]

I'm sure that the general public is training for their reality, i.e. "real fight", but there is a mentality and a level of training that supercedes that.

For those of you who claim to train a "traditional" art, what exactly do you think that means?

[mun hung]

How many people have you killed with your Wing Chun? ;)

[whippinghand]

As many as is necessary.

[moebius]

I think benny put it quite well in his postings. simply attacking an opponent with chain punches isn't a very good idea - it may work against an inexperienced opponent, but not against people who have a clue about fighting.

however, when you have trapped your opponent, neutralized both of his arms, it makes perfect sense to trow more than one punch. If the first punch knocks out the other guy (which of course would be ideal), so much the better. but if it doesn't, why not trow in a second punch?

in training, we, like benny and his classmates, trap and then trow 2-3 punches. why? to make sure that in a real fight, if the first blow does for some reason not result in a KO, our next reaction would not be 'darn, he's still standing', but BANG.Nr2, delivered instantly.

[whippinghand]

If you've neutralized your opponent's hands, it's not necessary to chain punch. That's a waste of what you've gained. That's the time, to break his arms, disable him, put him to the ground...

It's not about getting as many punches in as you can. It's not about the street fight.

[moebius]

yes, that's what I have in mind when punching an opponent. why exactly would it be a waste to chain punch in that situation? It's not that I'm loosing anything by doing it.

"It's not about getting as many punches in as you can."

no, not as many as I can, but as many as are needed for a knockout. as I stated above, every punch is thrown with the intention to finish the fight, if it takes one, fine, if it takes 3, that's ok too.

"It's not about the street fight."

As I understand it, wing chun was created for that very purpose, to be effective in real combat.

by the way, which style of wing chun do you pratice?

[whippinghand]

Yes, you ARE losing something by chain punching. You're losing the advantage that you've gained. If you've neutralized his arms, then you've lost the distance to chain punch. If you start chain punching, you give him the chance to recover. When you're in that close then punching is no longer appropriate.

Yes, Wing Chun was created for real combat, not the "street fight". "Street fight" is not real combat. That's just a game.

My style of Wing Chun? Wing Chun

[moebius]

"If you've neutralized his arms, then you've lost the distance to chain punch."

I beg your pardon? sounds like your understanding of chain punches is quite different from mine. what would be the correct distance for chain punching in your opinion?

"Yes, Wing Chun was created for real combat, not the "street fight". "Street fight" is not real combat. That's just a game."

people get killed in street fights. doesn't sound like a game to me. hey let's play a set or two...

"My style of Wing Chun? Wing Chun"

...or lineage, if you're not happy with the term style...

[whippinghand]

Let me re-iterate... If you've neutralized his arms, and I stress the word "IF", that suggests that you are close enough to your opponent to, not just do something TO his body (chain punch), but something WITH his body, break his arm, take him down, etc. Chain punching would be a thing of the past.

Yes, street fights are a dangerous game. But a game still.

[moebius]

"but something WITH his body, break his arm, take him down, etc."

I don't think taking him down would do more damage than a punch to the head/throat/whatever.

As for breaking his arm, I'll admit that I never thought about that kind of attack. I suppose one has to be very fast for that, especially if the opponent is stronger than you.

since you didn't answer the lineage question, I take it you don't want to tell me. that's ok, I just asked because that info might have given me a clue about your interpretation of certain techniques.

[whippinghand]

That's exactly why I don't state acknowledge the lineage question.

The only clue you really need is through, the words that I write. If you like what I write, great. If you don't, oh well. Power to me either way.

[rogue]

Strange, I find myself agreeing with Whipping Hand. If you're that close you have many more options than just punching. I'd be going for a head control rather than punching or a takedown.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[cobra]

how about 3 chain punches to the throat to soften him up a bit before you rip his head off?

Just my 4 cents!!

[rogue]

No. Only two. No more. Three punches bad. Two punches good. Two punches then rip head off. You can punch head after you rip it off. Me, I like to use head for Hacky Sack. Big fun!!! :D


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman