Wing Chun and Painful Knees.

[Hungfutkune]

I wonder if anybody here has some advice for me. I have been training in Wing Chun now for about 1 month and I am finding that the pigeon toed horse stance is causing some pain in my Knee. I have mentioned to my sifu and he tells me to stretch. (My sifu doesn't speak english, and I don't speak chinese, so it makes for an interesting class). The pain is mostly in my left knee on the outside (left part of the knee). Am I doing the stance wrong? If so how do I correct it. Does anybody else have the same problem and will I grow out of it. Hope to hear from you soon!! I should also add, I am a relative beginner to Wing Chun, but I have done about 4 years of Hung Gar and never had any problems with my knees.

Thanks

[StevoWC]

Hey,

I've been doing wing chun for about 10 months and I had the same problem as your explaining. My knee's hurt for a couple of months and then gradually the pain got less and less. Now I have very little, if not any.

Stretching is good and shaking out your legs helps with the pain. As your legs strenghen though the pain will go away. You just have to stick with it.

The only other explanation I can think of is that your sitting to deep in your stance which of course would put added pressure on your knees and legs.

Hope this helps!!!

Stevo

[Matrix]

Hungfutkune,

As a former marathon runner, I am highly sensitive to the issue of knee pain. In my experience, pain such as this means that your joints are under undue stress. This can either be from pure pressure or overuse. Expecting the pain to just "go away" may work, but I would proceed with caution. I think your body is telling you something. I have not ever had any pain from Wing Chun, other than those cause by being hit - which in of course to be expected. But just standing in YGKYM should not cause pain, IMO. Yes, you should definitely stretch. Here's a link to website that may help; http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/fw/fwFit02Stretching.html

in particular, I think #4 would be a good one for you. Based on your description, I think your iliotibial band is a little tight.

you can also try #9 on this page;
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/126.shtml

I would also try not to force the pigeon-toed stance too much. Go to the limit of where you are comfortable, and build from there with stretching and practice.

Also, you should ensure that you are well hydrated, so drink lots of water. Dehydration has a significant effect on flexibilty.

Best Regards,
Bill

[azwingchun]

I have heard of people getting knee pain from the YGKYM stance. This being due to unatural force being exerted inward with the knees, instead of letting the knees drop naturally into the stance. Example being, when you sink into the YGKYM stance, then trying to pull the knees inward, almost from the sides of the knee (if this makes sense).

Doesn't mean that this is what is causing it, you may have some knee issues that are unknown until trying this stance, could be an old injury, or just as mentioned.....could be week knees.

I personally don't take any pain lightly, unless it is due to a strike as mentioned by Matrix, but pain from certain stances and such......I look a little deeper into them. There is a differences between muscular pain or discomfort due to possibly a new stance, but if it is joint pain or something as this, then I don't find that normal.

[Vyvial]

Be cautious but don't be overly worried. Minor knee soreness and pain comes from your tendons stretching and being accustomed to the new stance, just like your elbows will get sore from air punching. Think of them as growing pains.

Take it easy on the stance only pushing your stance so far, take some advil or some other inflammatory to get rid of muscle and joint swelling and pain. If it persists then maybe you are doing something wrong and need some adjustment.

Good luck

-Aaron Vyvial

[Hendrik]

If I were you. I will stop practice the stupid "so called YJKYM" stance (god knows why the heck some people just evolve the nature yjkym to this way) which doesnt make no sense at all.

Some was asked to clamp apple or bottle. that is human body abusing. It will not get one any Kung Fu. in contrary, it destory knees and it might cause body mis-alightment or spine mis-alignment in a long term unbalance forcefull standing. Look at the WCK practitioners who have bad knees. how is one going to ground good with bad knees or twisted knees? Look at the WCK practitioners who has a "great stance" but the body broke into 2 pice - one dead stance on the bottom and one upper body.


To have a good power generation, knee play a big part of the generation. screw up the knees are putting a weak link in the body.


Go learn Yoga or scientific strecthing to heal the knee. Stop this knees abuse practice.

Why do people want to train this self-abusing way?

rule of thumb, imho, if it is not nature, if it feels strech, tear, and wear locally. QUIT


So, what is the theory behind the pegion toes and the knees twisting/align? how can one knows it is done correct?

Yes, there is theory describe in TCM medirians/structure model and it is very natural and scientific. it only takes not more then 30 mins to totally understand the why and how and what to expect.

Dont buy the story of do it this way and everything will be ok and....


I know I sound strong. But, your knees have no spare parts if it got screw. I got friends who got screw badly due to long time training in an inproper way. thus, I am pretty mad at the stupid dumb clamping bottle training.


I am thinking about writing a detail stuffs to explain the thoery and ect. so that the stupid abusing practice will forever vanished in this world. I dont like the abuse knees practice similar to the woman abusing legs Wraping trandition :mad:

[Vyvial]

hey hungfutkune, don't worry about Hendrik either, he normally has no idea what he is talking about, he likes to try and hijack everyone's post and turn it into mindless bickering about opinions that cannot be proven and therefore need no discussion at this point.http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Why do people want to train this self-abusing way? Hendrik,
There is a saying, "No pain, No gain". I don't believe it myself, but some people can equate pain to working hard. As someone pointed out, there is a difference between discomfort and pain. It's a good idea to understand the distinction. New things may cause discomfort to someone who asks their body to do things it is unaccustomed to. Not to worry..... Pain is another thing. It is your body telling you something like "Stop doing that!!" ;)

Bill

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vyvial
hey hungfutkune, don't worry about Hendrik either, he normally has no idea what he is talking about, he likes to try and hijack everyone's post and turn it into mindless bickering about opinions that cannot be proven and therefore need no discussion at this point.http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif


Vyvial,

Thanks for your personal accusation and attack.

Sure, it is other's knees if they screw up. IT is thier life if they screw up. You dont care. Dont you?:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Matrix
Hendrik,
There is a saying, "No pain, No gain".

I don't believe it myself, but some people can equate pain to working hard.

As someone pointed out, there is a difference between discomfort and pain. It's a good idea to understand the distinction.


New things may cause discomfort to someone who asks their body to do things it is unaccustomed to. Not to worry.....

Pain is another thing. It is your body telling you something like "Stop doing that!!" ;)

Bill


Bill,

What you said has alots of truth!

I agree with you.

You know, some people doesnt even have a clue about the training. and they do it in brute force. that cause be trouble if they pesist.

Most, just quit after awhile because the pain and the uncomfortable get to them and they feel the training goes no where.

[Vajramusti]

Apart from genetics, trauma and extensive wear and tear-
knee problems can occur from doing many activities in a WRONG manner- baseball catching, football cutting and running, jogging,
taichi, kicking, basketball, even yoga(if badly taught)...not peculiar to wing chun.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Apart from genetics, trauma and extensive wear and tear-
knee problems can occur from doing many activities in a WRONG manner- baseball catching, football cutting and running, jogging,
taichi, kicking, basketball, even yoga(if badly taught)...not peculiar to wing chun.

Yup!

[AmanuJRY]

It could be arthritis, in that case just a good warm up and stretch should minimize it and from there you would just have to deal with it. If you know that's not the case, do you have something outside of training that could also be causing repetitive stress to your knee.

If you are certain it has something to do with training (like, the only time you notice is at class/workout), then I would suggest what Matrix said and limit yourself to what you can do, but see if you can find what is causing it. WC is about body mechanics, if something you are doing is causing pain, above muscle soreness, then there is definately something wrong with it.

And, stretching broadens your body's 'mecanical' range and weight training/exercise (done right) strengthens it's 'mechanical' structure.

[anerlich]

Um, if this is something that doesn't go away, go see a professional physiotherapist. They will be able to diagnose problems and suggest solutions far better than a bunch of amateurs on an internet forum.

[Hungfutkune]

Hey guys,
Thanks for everybody's advice. It is greatly appreciated.
The pain in the knees is relevent only when training, other than that I have had no discomfort at all. I am just wondering if I am doing the stance wrong or twisting my knee in an unatural position.
In Hung Gar we were told to point our knees in the same direction as our toes. Is this the same in Wing Chun??
Again, thanks for all the responses!!

[KPM]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
Hey guys,
Thanks for everybody's advice. It is greatly appreciated.
The pain in the knees is relevent only when training, other than that I have had no discomfort at all. I am just wondering if I am doing the stance wrong or twisting my knee in an unatural position.
In Hung Gar we were told to point our knees in the same direction as our toes. Is this the same in Wing Chun??
Again, thanks for all the responses!!

----Yes, the knees should point in the same direction as the toes. Flexibility at the rotators of the hip and at the calf muscles are very important for a good YGKYM. Keeping the toes pointed the same direction as the knee is an important alignment element that helps prevent torque through the knee joint itself. When initially starting out, discomfort is not unusual, but it should be a "soreness" in the muscles from being unaccustomed to the position. It should not be an actual pain or aching in the knee joint itself if you are doing things properly. Talk to your instructor to make sure your positioning and alignment are good. Work on stretches for the hips and calfs. Hope that helps.

Keith

[kj]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
In Hung Gar we were told to point our knees in the same direction as our toes. Is this the same in Wing Chun??

Emphatically yes!! This is less a function of the art than proper care and function of the human body. No art should require you to utilize the knee in an unnatural position or place dangerous demands on it. I am not advocating to avoid working the knees hard, but rather to ensure you work them correctly.

The knee is a highly complex joint. There are so many ways to screw it up - temporarily or permanently - all of which you need to avoid. Sometimes there are preexisting or congenital conditions which impact joint performance and need to be respected as well.

Wing Chun, in the way that I practice it, does indeed place strain on the knees for developmental purposes. However, it's vitally important to learn to listen to our bodies and develop the ability to discriminate between "good pain" (stress which results in growth, such as in weight lifting) and "bad pain" (resulting in short or long term damage, or in a way that conflicts with optimal function and health).

In my case, I operate with varying degrees of knee pain at all times (in Wing Chun and virtually every other activity) primarily due to prematurely advanced osteoarthritis. If I waited for the pain to subside, I wouldn't do much of anything at all. I work through the pain and dysfunction as best I can, and aim to continuously strengthen the knee and surrounding areas. However, I am careful not to bear weight on improperly oriented knees, or push them too long too far in Wing Chun or other activities. The traditional advice in training is to "tough it out," but this must be overridden by my own prime directive to be considerate of the knees. I cannot afford things like tendonitis or damaged ligaments in addition to my pre-existing condition.

Andrew is absolutely correct in referring you to a qualified physician, orthopedist or physical therapist on such matters. I would also recommend to research and understand your own knee condition as best you can. I do not recommend putting blind faith in martial arts instructors or practitioners to be experts in health care, or expect them to understand the unique demands of our individual bodies. By becoming better informed and exploring our own conditions, I believe we can best partner with both physicians and martial arts instructors for optimal performance and overall well being.

Wishing you a lifetime of healthy knees and other pieces and parts. :)

Regards,
- kj

[Tom Kagan]

You are, almost beyond any reasonable doubt, making the common beginner's mistake of turning inward with the knee and ankle. You should be turning inward with the the hip. Keep your knee and foot better aligned with your shin and and femur and you should not be developing this pain.

Stretch your psoas muscle and your hip's external rotators (quadratus femoris, obturators, gluteus, and gemelli). In the meantime, don't worry about turning your feet so drastically inward. Just point yourself a little straighter ahead until you've worked out the "kinks".

Trivia note: A woman's pelvic tilt and "angle Q" makes a too tight inward rotation of the leg a very rare occurrence. (To throw a bone to the gentleman, the "angle Q" sexual difference has its own set of drawbacks for a woman's knee, too. ;) )