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View Full Version : the BEST wooden dummy video EVER!!



Vyvial
08-01-2004, 04:25 PM
trust me...

wooden dummy video (http://www.wingtsun.zigzag.pl/sifu%20dm.mpg)

old jong
08-01-2004, 05:15 PM
Are you serious?...:confused:

Vyvial
08-01-2004, 09:47 PM
I bet you can't do it that fast!!!

I can't either but I can bang on it much harder though....

Nick Forrer
08-02-2004, 05:46 AM
I go for precision and correct body mechanics when doing the jong- not speed. IMO doing it fast is point missing if you arent clear about your reasons for doing it.

I notice that one of the reasons he can do it so fast is because there is a disconnection between his body and his arms i.e. his arms are moving a lot quicker then his body. One of the ideas behind the jong is to practice moving the body as one unit and to use the waist as the motor and not the arm.

Ultimatewingchun
08-02-2004, 09:58 AM
To quote a famous man we all know and love...

"Boards...don't hit back!"

lawrenceofidaho
08-02-2004, 10:04 AM
Sifu Norbert is a big & strong guy, so he doesn't necessarily have to throw his body into every motion to achieve a reasonable level of power (at least not motion that's easily visible to the eye).


The bigger WT "masters" (Norbert, Gutierrez, Boztepe, etc. who are natural heavyweights) will sometimes execute techniques in ways that smaller WT "masters" cannot (and probably never try.)


When I watch the video, and imagine the dummy arms to be the arms of an opponent that Norbert outweighs by more than 20 pounds, I can see those techniques being effective (because they are quick and explosive). -If he was working with someone his own size or larger, he would probably not bother trying to move that way, and just fire "big artillery".


"One of the ideas behind the jong is to practice moving the body as one unit and to use the waist as the motor and not the arm."


-I'm sure he practices that way sometimes as well.......


The higher level WT guys train on the dummy using a variety of different rythms, "feels", and concepts. You could watch several different practice sessions, and they would each look quite different depending on what principles and "attributes" (Hi Ernie! :D ) they are wanting to emphasize on that day.


-Lawrence

sihing
08-02-2004, 10:10 AM
What's Sifu Nobert's stats(Height, Weight, etc)? Anyone know what Boztepe's stats are?

Vyvial
08-02-2004, 10:57 AM
this Norbert guy has to be bigger than Emin, he's a monster! Like a hairy Shrek destroying the wooden dummy, in a good way.

"boards don't hit back huh?" --- I don't know who came up with that BS but I can tell you, and probably Norbert as well, when you're really going at it and banging on the dummy as hard as you can when those arms break!!!! You better watch out! One time when I was doing a pretty heavy set I snapped the arm off and it bounced back and hit me in the face, i don't think I have ever been hit in the face like that before, it almost bruised.
Yeah!

Vyvial
08-02-2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
Sifu Norbert is a big & strong guy... I can see those techniques being effective (because they are quick and explosive). -Lawrence

Very interesting take on WT. I always thought that the WT base
Principles of Force was:


1. Free yourself from your own force.
You must learn to relax and not rely on brute strength to defeat the enemy, because there's always someone stronger than you who will defeat you in a contest of strength.

2. Free yourself from your opponent's force.
You must learn to give way to the enemy's force in a controlled and purposeful fashion rather than struggle against it.

3. Use your opponent's force against him.
You must learn to harness the enemy's force in order to use it against him.

4. Add your own force to the force of the opponent.
You must learn to use your own force so that it augments the force of the enemy which is being used against him.

Isn't relying on Speed and strength kinda well... ignoring all that GGGMM LT has passed down?

lawrenceofidaho
08-02-2004, 12:33 PM
Vyvial,

1. Free yourself from your own force. You must learn to relax and not rely on brute strength

Norbert is quite relaxed in the video, and I don't recall any use of "brute" strength executed on the dummy by him. (If you disagree, could you be more specific about which techniques you believe he is "muscling" so I can look more closely at them in the video?)


2. Free yourself from your opponent's force. You must learn to give way to the enemy's force in a controlled and purposeful fashion rather than struggle against it.

I qualified my earlier comments by suggesting that this is how Norbert would likely engage a smaller opponent (because with his speed and explosive power, there would be no struggle.) -Also, because he is relaxed, he would not be wrestling his opponent's arms in a way that would allow him to be easily exploited the way someone with tense/rigid arms would.


3. Use your opponent's force against him. You must learn to harness the enemy's force in order to use it against him

Notice that Norbert is cutting angles and playing off of the recoil of the jong, -not just smashing into it like an American football blocking dummy.......


4. Add your own force to the force of the opponent.

It should be very clear that Norbert is adding his own force here.


Isn't relying on Speed and strength kinda well... ignoring all that GGGMM LT has passed down?

GGGGM :rolleyes: LT uses strength and speed too.......(How could anyone ever win a fight without some of each?) We just need to differentiate between the two aspects of it; raw ability (attributes), and also, how those attributes are channeled (structure / technique).

If someone has natural strength and speed, -good for them, but if they do not employ it with; skill, intelligence, and savvy (which I feel it is likely that Sifu Norbert probably does), then of course, they can be beaten by a slower and weaker opponent who has better skill in applying those attributes.


I agree with all the principles you stated, I just don't feel that Norbert has violated any of them.

old jong
08-02-2004, 01:13 PM
Like Nick said!...I see no connection between his arms and body structure.Whatever he is big and strong and can hit hard this way,it is not good Wing Chun technique.
BTW,I can do it wrong fast also!...
;)

lawrenceofidaho
08-02-2004, 02:18 PM
You don't need to muster the same amount of power to make an eye jab functional, as you do to take someone out with a nine foot pole, right? Why not make the body mechanics appropriate to the goal you are trying to accomplish?

In my opinion, trying to put the maximum amount of power possible into EVERY technique is not always the best way to approach combat. Certain techniques executed in certain situations don't NEED to have the body fully behind them to be effective.

If Norbert unleashed a flurry like that on on a wing chun "fundamentalist" (who was using "correct" technique) and beat the guy into the ground, why would you call what he is doing "wrong"? -He did what it took to be effective. He made it as simple as possible and still got the job done. He doesn't need the overkill of power which would slow him down. Why pour on more than is necessary? (Simplicity is also an important wing chun principle, right?)

-Lawrence

old jong
08-02-2004, 02:51 PM
You could also hit him in the face with a shovel,using very little power and be effective.
The question is: Do you practice Wing Chun or something else?...It is nice to be able to imitate Jackie Chan on the dummy but it is not what Wing Chun is about. (IMHO anyway)

Vajramusti
08-02-2004, 03:02 PM
Old Jong asks-
The question is: Do you practice Wing Chun or something else?...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That question can be asked fairly frequently.....at the kfo.
mad hatter's tea party. Some coversations rival that of Alice in Wonderland.:-

Vajramusti
08-02-2004, 03:25 PM
Old Jong asks-
The question is: Do you practice Wing Chun or something else?...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That question can be asked fairly frequently.....at the kfo.
mad hatter's tea party. Some coversations rival that of Alice in Wonderland.:-

lawrenceofidaho
08-02-2004, 04:49 PM
I practice Wing Chun, but I am not a "fundamentalist".

Fundamentalism often tries to paint everything in the world either black or white.

IMO, the Taoist perspective is closer to reality; "Things are neither black *OR* white, but rather, black *AND* white." (Isn't Wing Chun based on Taoist philosophy?)

Deviating away from a certain Wing Chun principle because you are ignorant of it, or not skilled enough to apply it is one thing, -but deviating away from a wc principle to further emphasize another wc principle (temporarily) is quite another....

In Norbert's execution of the dummy, we see him moving his hands faster than he could support each technique with full body power, -so what? Sometimes a situation might dictate that speed like that might be much more effective than having every technique travel half as fast, but be twice as powerful. Just because you don't use every single tool in the toolbox (whether you need it or not), doesn't necessarily mean you are not using Wing Chun. -Shouldn't Wing Chun be able to adapt to the needs of a situation?

I'm quite sure Norbert usually *DOES* practice the dummy with body power. (Watch his other clips to see him move with it.)

-Lawrence

old jong
08-02-2004, 07:56 PM
I'm sure that Norbert can do it right.I was just criticising that clip and the title given to it in the thread: "The best wodden dummy video ever"
I would also criticise a boxer doing arm punches the same.I know a boxer could do maybe some light arm with arm punches but they are still bad technique for a boxer.
No religion there!

Vyvial
08-02-2004, 08:52 PM
Hello Lawrence,

I was asking a question on your take on the video and was hoping that you would support your statements. I'm glad that the guy in the video is brave enough to just put himself out there in the world and show what he's got and i understand that fast flashy movements can easily sell a martial art to the general public and WT is kung for for the masses (over one million served) so I make no judgments there. However, that is the video that he chose to represent himself so us kung fu guys get to watch it and make our own opinions on why he chooses to represent himself in that way and in my opinion that is the worst example of the Muk Yan Jong i have ever seen.

Some people like to judge the videos I put on my site as well, thats human nature, but instead of just showing myself being a badass and destroying everything that gets in my way, I prefer to show my students and let their Kung Fu show the quality of my school and system.

What is the purpose of training the dummy in the WT system?

Just some thoughts.

Vyvial
08-02-2004, 09:11 PM
on another note, I need to stop giving myself bad luck!!!!!!

When building the jong frame at my new school location, I had the jong up and not connected, taking measurements....

and well, it fell forward and the one arm that was in went through the floor--- big hole I can see through the layers of wood into the dirt foundation. The Jong and arms are made of Ironwood so they are really tough but 200 lbs and going through the floor cracked the arm halfway through.

I have never broken an arm before, at least not one belonging to a jong, but i deserve it for making this thread.... stupid kung fu karma!

PS. Hey Neal, what are you up to tomorrow? I need some help with something ;)

lawrenceofidaho
08-02-2004, 11:07 PM
Old Jong and Vyvial,

I'm not an apologist for Sifu Norbert (really!), I just happen to think that his knowledge / skill / ability is not limited to what is shown on that brief dummy video. I think it's only a glimpse of what he's probably capable of. (Maybe the guy building his website chose to post that particular dummy clip simply because it's very different from anything people have seen on other wing chun sites.)

Would I want to train with him? I honestly don't know until I would meet him, but I *DO* know that I wouldn't want to fight him. :eek:

-Lawrence

Vajramusti
08-03-2004, 05:14 AM
lawrenceofidaho sez:

Would I want to train with him? I honestly don't know until I would meet him, but I *DO* know that I wouldn't want to fight him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


((I dont think that most folks would like to fight Lennox Lewis-
he can punch straight as an arrow at times-
but what he does is not wing chun.

Jackie Chan can do some quick work on a dummy- but what he does is not wing chun.

Paul Vunak can fool around with a dummy- but what he does is not wing chun.

Many things that some folks can do can have bits and flavors of wing chun- but it's not wing chun. ))

joyoftempe
www.tempewingchun.com

lawrenceofidaho
08-04-2004, 09:02 AM
No one can *MOVE* their body as fast as their hands (obviously), but that doesn't necessarily mean that their techniques are not *SUPPORTED* by their body.


There are Wing Chun practicioners who can get power from their body in more subtle ways than only by using big, obvious, telegraphic movements. (I am definitely *NOT* referring to any mystical chi-stuff either, -just sound mechanics.)


A full body haymaker is a powerful technique (see Danzig video), but launching a short straight punch from center (while less powerful) has many tactical advantages that give it different uses. -Just because a weapon is not a "big bomb" (launched with everything you have), doesn't mean it's ineffective or doesn't have it's place in the system.

lawrenceofidaho
10-30-2004, 09:43 AM
Has anyone on the forum met or crossed hands with Sifu Norbert?

VingDragon
10-30-2004, 11:45 AM
my friends in poland did. the video comes from their polish website, they have steady contact to "Norbee" :D ask them if you want, but what I can see on his videos - he speed up actions by editing :)

old jong
10-30-2004, 12:01 PM
In Norbert's execution of the dummy, we see him moving his hands faster than he could support each technique with full body power, -so what?

So what?....It is just showing off!...And a showing off of discutable technique and foundement. (foundamentalist again? ;) ) The premier role of training on the dummy is to train for perfect lines and perfect body unity behind every motions. Nobody ever spoke about "full body power" on the dummy.
Doing differently is just losing one's times and ingraining wrong technique "à la" JKD...Beating on the dummy for the sake of beating on the dummy.



Has anyone on the forum met or crossed hands with Sifu Norbert?
What kind of a question is that?...I ,personaly don't care about how well he can fight or whatever. Lennox Lewiss can fight and he don't even know about a thing such as the Wing Chun dummy.The point is: I didn't see a good dummy demo.It could be nice for JKD'ers or for a novice's eyes but it should not impress anybody with some experience in Wing Chun and... With some knowledge about the developmental function of the forms.


A full body haymaker is a powerful technique (see Danzig video), but launching a short straight punch from center (while less powerful).......

The whole meaning of SLT training is to make "a short straight punch from the center" very powerful!... (Not a foundamentalistic point of view but a basic Wing Chun fact)

old jong
10-30-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by VingDragon
my friends in poland did. the video comes from their polish website, they have steady contact to "Norbee" :D ask them if you want, but what I can see on his videos - he speed up actions by editing :)

...:eek: Does that mean that he can't even do it right slow?...:eek:

lawrenceofidaho
10-30-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by old jong
The premier role of training on the dummy is to train for perfect lines and perfect body unity behind every motions. Nobody ever spoke about "full body power" on the dummy.

It seems you are trying to differentiate between "full body unity" and "full body power", but I don't feel you've made clear what the distinction is. Can you elaborate?


Most of us would probably agree that wing chun is largely centered on the principle of efficiency..... -To that end, wouldn't you agree that there are certain situations when "truckloads" of power are not needed to be effective, and it is more economical to move part(s) of your body quickly, versus moving your entire body more slowly?

Though I concede that moving the entire body together will prove more useful in more situations, I don't feel it means that quicker (and lighter) strikes have no place in a wing chunner's strategic toolbox.

-Lawrence

lawrenceofidaho
10-30-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by old jong
What kind of a question is that?...I ,personaly don't care about how well he can fight or whatever. Lennox Lewiss can fight and he don't even know about a thing such as the Wing Chun dummy.The point is: I didn't see a good dummy demo.It could be nice for JKD'ers or for a novice's eyes but it should not impress anybody with some experience in Wing Chun and... With some knowledge about the developmental function of the forms.

What if the "classical" developmental function of the form has been achieved, and you want to experiment with a training tool to see what other attributes you are able to enhance?

:confused:

We both saw a video where a man is doing something in an unusual way. -It seems you interpret that he does it that way because he is ignorant, but what I am trying to say is that I think he is quite aware, and quite competent in regards to what you refer to as the "developmental functions" of the forms, and he is now using a given training apparatus to work on a new set of qualities.

I would probably agree there was something funny about it if I saw him teaching his students who were new to the dummy to move in such a way, but we have to remember that this man is considered a master of his art (WT), and a full-time professional who has probably spent countless hours working on more traditional executions of the dummy form.

-Lawrence

old jong
10-30-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
It seems you are trying to differentiate between "full body unity" and "full body power", but I don't feel you've made clear what the distinction is. Can you elaborate?


I am not trying to differentiate.I'm just trying to put in perspective the necessity of not putting the carriage in front of the horse.


What if the "classical" developmental function of the form has been achieved, and you want to experiment with a training tool to see what other attributes you are able to enhance?

I don't think so. Fell free to do so if you like.


but we have to remember that this man is considered a master of his art (WT), and a full-time professional...

Opinions can vary but this demo is not a good indication of "mastery"


-To that end, wouldn't you agree that there are certain situations when "truckloads" of power are not needed to be effective, and it is more economical to move part(s) of your body quickly, versus moving your entire body more slowly?


You may need truckloads of power to shock somebody with bad technique but very little energy to do it with good technique.The opponent always deserve to be treated with power.Do you differentiate between the power you use and the power the opponent should recieve?...

lawrenceofidaho
10-30-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by old jong
Do you differentiate between the power you use and the power the opponent should recieve?...

Even though this is not what I was getting at, you brought up a valid question for anyone to consider......

As you point out, how can one say; "I'm going to hit him with 60% power." when there are so many variables and chaotic factors involved.......0% and 100% are probably the only measures you can claim, and then reliably follow through on.


Still, a boxers jab can sometimes be effective without throwing the body behind it, if it is meant to; confuse, distract, deceive, etc., -not to knock out. (Although it often sets up the knock out). It might not matter if it hits with only 40% or 65% because the big bomb is coming right behind it. (-or maybe it's an eye jab or shot to the throat which doesn't need that kind of steam on it to drop the guy.)

Not every blow needs to be a "one-punch-kill". :cool:

Don't get me wrong, I feel that everyone should work to optimize punching power (and guage progress with Terence's airshield test ;) ), but power alone is not the answer to everything.

-Lawrence

AmanuJRY
10-30-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Vyvial
... in my opinion that is the worst example of the Muk Yan Jong i have ever seen.


I've seen worse.

old jong
10-30-2004, 05:06 PM
There is boxing strategies and Wing Chun strategies That's all as far as I'm concerned. IMO,Wing Chun needs to be done with "body unity" along with other things to be effective system wise. The less fondation there is in your Wing Chun,the more you will need outside additives to be effective and efficient!...;) Relaxed technique =flexible power/rattan. Or the capacity to be as hard as possible or as soft as required when an attack needs to be changed into something else.This is not an easy skill to develop!...Thus the need to concentrate on Wing Chun instead of looking for ways to fill the holes in one's Wing Chun.
IMO, these things will never be developed by showing off fast deconected hand techniques for the gallery....Or worse by using special effects on videos!...:rolleyes: ;)

IMHO anyway!

anerlich
10-30-2004, 09:16 PM
:o :o :o

Criticise some poor guy who's put a short clip up on the web, and extrapolate all kinds of ridiculous, generalised conclusions from it.

Wc unity wil never happen because of this sort of internecine bickering (not that I care, I enjoy the bucket-tipping :p )

t_niehoff
10-31-2004, 07:31 AM
**Some comments about various statements on this thread --

old jong wrote:

I see no connection between his arms and body structure.Whatever he is big and strong and can hit hard this way,it is not good Wing Chun technique.

**Did it ever occur to you that there is no "one right way" to "practice" the dummy (or any form)? In my view, it can be "practiced" in any number of ways, with each different way focusing on a different aspect. "Connection" is just one thing we can practice on the dummy.

**Use of 'localized muscle', like anything else, has its advantages and disadvantage. One aspect, based on understanding what those advantages and disadvantages are, is knowing the time and place where using 'localized muscle' (or using one's limbs without a 'body connection') will be effective for *you* (which will vary with the individual). While "whole body power" has its place too, what is the need to use it if one doesn't need it? "Good WCK technique" is based on the moment of application -- for example, someone may suggest that a "good WCK punch" has "whole body power" behind it, but if I can use one with localized power and end the fight with that punch how can I be criticized? Must I always do it with "whole body power"? If I want to lift a teacup, do I need to use "whole body power" to do it? Maybe I just use "whole body power" when I need to. If someone adheres to the notion of 'just use what I need to in the moment and no more' can they be criticized at not having "good WCK technique"?

You could also hit him in the face with a shovel,using very little power and be effective. The question is: Do you practice Wing Chun or something else?...

**What you really mean is: are they doing WCK (including the forms and drills) like you think it should be done? These are your theoretical standards.

I would also criticise a boxer doing arm punches the same.I know a boxer could do maybe some light arm with arm punches but they are still bad technique for a boxer.

**Instead of thinking of it in terms of "bad technique", try looking at it from the perspective of "is he using the WCK tools in a way that work for him?" Of course, to do that will hinge on them actually trying to use it (fight). And if one doesn't "use it", they can't make that determination, and so their only recourse is to rely on "theoretical standards".

-----------------------------------


anerlich wrote:

Criticise some poor guy who's put a short clip up on the web, and extrapolate all kinds of ridiculous, generalised conclusions from it.

Wc unity wil never happen because of this sort of internecine bickering (not that I care, I enjoy the bucket-tipping ).


**I think we can all agree that WCK has specific tools like the punch, tan, bong, fook, etc. The overwhelming majority of the disagreements and "bickering" occur over how these should be used or trained: that "to be WCK" or "to be good WCK" the "use or practice" of those tools must meet certain, fixed criteria. What I find interesting is that effectiveness (being able to actually make these tools "work") doesn't appear to be the basis of those criteria. Whatever we may think those "theoretical criteria" are, shouldn't they be *based* on the demonstrable fact that they would in some way increase our effectiveness in using those tools? Does it make sense to adhere to some criteria that doesn't make us more effective (just so we can say "this is good WCK")? If effectiveness is what is driving the criteria, can we determine that from "thought experiments" ("this should be how it works") or from experience in noncombative drills ("it works in chi sao")? IMO, you can't have "good WCK" *unless* it is effective and the level of that effectiveness (the level of skill we can deal with) is the level of our WCK. To say "lot's of nonWCK people are effective - can fight - but that doesn't make it good WCK" is true, but those people are not using WCK's tools so they are not using WCK. A good WCK punch is one that works for us, not one that meets certain fixed theoretical criteria but doesn't work for me. How "good" it is depends on who I can make it work against (their skill and attribute level). We'll never get rid of the "bickering" as long as we rely on "theoretical standards" -- as all theories are equal -- instead of effectiveness. When effectiveness becomes our foremost concern, then we'll all be on the same page.

Regards,

Terence

old jong
10-31-2004, 02:33 PM
**Did it ever occur to you that there is no "one right way" to "practice" the dummy (or any form)? In my view, it can be "practiced" in any number of ways, with each different way focusing on a different aspect. "Connection" is just one thing we can practice on the dummy.

It occur to me that we must get into the water and do it right....IMO


**Instead of thinking of it in terms of "bad technique", try looking at it from the perspective of "is he using the WCK tools in a way that work for him?" Of course, to do that will hinge on them actually trying to use it (fight). And if one doesn't "use it", they can't make that determination, and so their only recourse is to rely on "theoretical standards".

Did it ever occur to you what is the role of the Dummy?...Let me try to explain: It is a tool useful in learning proper lines and alignments and to develop body unity (coordination between feet and hands without forgetting balance)and ...other things,to develop skills.IT IS NOT AN OPPONENT OR A SHOW OFF MACHINE.
IMO anyway!...;)

AmanuJRY
10-31-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by old jong
...IT IS NOT AN OPPONENT...

In some people's opinion, the dummy IS an opponent, and they 'spar' with the dummy.



Originally posted by old jong
...OR A SHOW OFF MACHINE.

Could this be what really bothers you about the video???

old jong
10-31-2004, 04:56 PM
Could this be what really bothers you about the video???

Bother?...Not really.
I'm only giving my opinions on how some are practicing the art I practice also.My impressions on a subject I relate to.The WC/MMA'ist and WC/JKD'ers can preach their gospel on this forum freely;why shouldn't I be able to express my thoughts the same.Everybody is free to reject whatever I say,I don't care.

IMO,the whole idea of: Doing something "the way it work for him or whatever" is not the way to really learn something in any depth. It is more like " I can't make it work how it was supposed for some reason and I will simply naviguate around the problem" and: I will have the approval of of all of those who like me are too lazy or egostic to really take the times to really learn something.It provides for internet tough talk also!...:rolleyes:

Anyway,life is what is happening when we are busy posting here!...;)

kungfuthug
10-31-2004, 09:34 PM
That was awful, is this guy some kind of self proclaimed master. I have seen juniors display more technique. What a joke!:p :p

black and blue
11-01-2004, 12:57 AM
Having met Maday Norbert I can say he is extremely good. Very relaxed and the most powerful hits I've personally witnessed. That clip is him clearly showing 'one' way to use the dummy... to go at it with speed. I've seen him work the dummy in various ways.

The man really is exceptionally good... maybe if any of you guys are in Budapest you should check him out. I don't recommend challenging him (:) ) but go to a class and see what he's like. I like the man, if he says he can do something he 'shows' you he can do it.

t_niehoff
11-01-2004, 06:21 AM
oldjong wrote:

Did it ever occur to you what is the role of the Dummy?

**Yes, it has -- and as I said, depending on how you use it, you can focus on different things.

...Let me try to explain: It is a tool useful in learning proper lines and alignments and to develop body unity (coordination between feet and hands without forgetting balance)and ...other things,to develop skills.

**I'd think a trainee having already learned various empty-hand forms, and numerous drills, including chi sao, and then having fought regularly would already have a good idea of "proper lines and alignments" and wouldn't need to "learn" (your word) those working with a dummy (seems rather late in their training to "learn" those basic things). I also think that they'd already have good "body unity" and that the dummy wouldn't provide further significant development in that area. Of course, someone can choose to focus on those things with their dummy practice. I would choose to focus on other things, however.

IT IS NOT AN OPPONENT OR A SHOW OFF MACHINE.

**I agree.

Regards,

Terence

kj
11-01-2004, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff
**I'd think a trainee having already learned various empty-hand forms, and numerous drills, including chi sao, and then having fought regularly would already have a good idea of "proper lines and alignments" and wouldn't need to "learn" (your word) those working with a dummy (seems rather late in their training to "learn" those basic things). I also think that they'd already have good "body unity" and that the dummy wouldn't provide further significant development in that area. Of course, someone can choose to focus on those things with their dummy practice. I would choose to focus on other things, however.

I don't know anyone who is so perfect in these areas that they cannot benefit from further work or refinement in them. I nonetheless appreciate the dilemma of opportunity cost.

Regards,
- kj

t_niehoff
11-01-2004, 07:38 AM
kj,

Old Jong said "learn" not "refine". But even your position (it "refines") begs several questions: whether dummy practice can significantly improve those aspects; if so, how must that practice be done to accomplish that; how does one measure progress; etc.

Regards,

Terence

AmanuJRY
11-01-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by old jong
Bother?...Not really.
I'm only giving my opinions on how some are practicing the art I practice also.My impressions on a subject I relate to.The WC/MMA'ist and WC/JKD'ers can preach their gospel on this forum freely;why shouldn't I be able to express my thoughts the same.Everybody is free to reject whatever I say,I don't care.

IMO,the whole idea of: Doing something "the way it work for him or whatever" is not the way to really learn something in any depth. It is more like " I can't make it work how it was supposed for some reason and I will simply naviguate around the problem" and: I will have the approval of of all of those who like me are too lazy or egostic to really take the times to really learn something.It provides for internet tough talk also!...:rolleyes:

Anyway,life is what is happening when we are busy posting here!...;)

I'm not saying that you don't have a right to post your opinion, just that I'm a bit suprised by the narrow view you are showing.

For one, I hardly believe that demonstrating the dummy form in this 'speedy' fashion gives any real evidence that he *can't* do it any other way, on the contrary, if he can do it that fast, I'm sure he can slow down and do it much more 'deliberatly'. For another, IME, several branches of WC do the dummy form differently, to whatever degree, and to say that he did the form 'wrong' you would have to define the absolute 'right' way of doing it.

So all of this begs the question....What is the correct way for preforming the dummy form???

wingchunner
11-01-2004, 10:17 AM
I was at a tournament once and I overheard a couple of guys say that the wing chun dummy set should be part of the competition. "How would it be judged?", the othe asked. "Whoever can do it the fastest."

Anyone can do the dummy form fast, but can they use good form while moving quickly. What's the point if they don't use good form? What if they are leaning over, their shoulders are hunched, or don't even complete the techniques?

Granted I don't know what the clip is supposed to illustrate, perhaps he was showing what shouldn't be done. If you watch the clip of my instructor, you can see the connection to the ground as he works with the dummy. His head doesn't move very much. He penetrates the dummy with his body's energy. The body works together.

Here's the clip:
http://wing-chun.nu/cwc_video_misc.htm

As always we're always looking for serious students.

I want to say more, but I gotta get back to work.

Marty Yoder

Vajramusti
11-01-2004, 10:32 AM
If one looks at the existing film of Ip Man working the dummy- even as an elderly person...the discerning eye should give a sense of the importance of the dummy for wing chun.

Control, coordination , footwork, ground connection, compressed explosiveness.. are all there- its a tool for development of some key abilities- it is not an opponent to spar with and show off speed.

But then- there is the jkd use of the dummy.....

BL ( bless him)...never was taught the dummy.

old jong
11-01-2004, 10:33 AM
I'm not saying that you don't have a right to post your opinion, just that I'm a bit suprised by the narrow view you are showing.

A narrow view?...Well,to what degree a thing has to be wrong to be considered wrong?...Let's say some guy commit a crime;depending on his idea on what is right or wrong,his counciousness will tell him how much he was bad or good! The policeman will have another opinion and the victim of his crime will have yet another opinion.So,everything is relative and based on this my opinion was built on my experiences and Wing Chun credentials and I consider that this guy's demo suck.That's all!...


Having met Maday Norbert I can say he is extremely good. Very relaxed and the most powerful hits I've personally witnessed. That clip is him clearly showing 'one' way to use
...

Now I understand why you left Wing Chun!...;)


Old Jong said "learn" not "refine". But even your position (it "refines") begs several questions: whether dummy practice can significantly improve those aspects; if so, how must that practice be done to accomplish that; how does one measure progress; etc.

"Refine" is a much better choice of words,I agree but;when do we really stop to learn?...When do we decide we are good enough to stop learning?...As far as measuring progress;IMO,when I feel I suck at something is a good indication I am on the verge of making some progress. Ways can vary depending on the individual.I should be felt also in chi sau and sparring.


So all of this begs the question....What is the correct way for preforming the dummy form???

The same as doing SLT,Chum Kiu,Biu gee,Bot Jam Do and Luk Dim Bune Kwan Do: As it was correctly learned in the beginning.This is why these things are called: FORMS (1) The times appropriate for improvising are in Chi Sau and sparring.

Sorry for being so "narrow minded"


(1) Forms: Practices used to ingrain physical and psycho-physical attributes,later to be used in a martial art application meaning.

AmanuJRY
11-01-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by old jong
A narrow view?...Well,to what degree a thing has to be wrong to be considered wrong?...Let's say some guy commit a crime;depending on his idea on what is right or wrong,his counciousness will tell him how much he was bad or good! The policeman will have another opinion and the victim of his crime will have yet another opinion.So,everything is relative and based on this my opinion was built on my experiences and Wing Chun credentials and I consider that this guy's demo suck.That's all!...

I'm not particularly impressed with the demo either. I just don't think that it is anything to base his skill on. Maybe the guy watching him asked "oh yeah, but how FAST can you do it?" just before they started rolling film on it. To jump to the conclusion that it makes him a 'bad' practicianer of WC is a bit zealous.



Originally posted by old jong
The same as doing SLT,Chum Kiu,Biu gee,Bot Jam Do and Luk Dim Bune Kwan Do: As it was correctly learned in the beginning.This is why these things are called: FORMS (1) The times appropriate for improvising are in Chi Sau and sparring.

And how was it correctly learned in the beginning? That's the ONLY way it can be performed? What if you were shown different ways of doing it from the same person?

I've been under the impression that the dummy was a tool created to be able to train when you didn't have a training partner. IMHO, being able to improvise on a dummy is good training and develops the ability to improvise in chi sau as well.
That's just my narrow minded view of it.



Originally posted by old jong
Sorry for being so "narrow minded"

We're all human.;)

black and blue
11-01-2004, 12:02 PM
"Now I understand why you left Wing Chun!..."

If ever you are holidaying out my way (Hungary), drop me a line... am sure I can introduce you to this man who doesn't impress you - in person you'd certainly be in-pressed!

:D ;)

old jong
11-01-2004, 12:30 PM
I don't think I ever mentionned something about his overall Wing Chun...Or tsun skill!...(yet!) ;) IMO these "dummy" demos are futile because all this hand flairing around will never be possible in Chi Sau or sparring anyway and is futile and useless as a practice. Anybody with some decent body unity (stance/footwork/hand coordination etc) will have no trouble at all neutralising and controling anybody who is relying on "hand technique" only; even fast hand techniques.I always tell my students:" Don't let the dummy win, always have a strong position before any attack" Nothing could be more basic IMHO!...

Let me give another example to illustrate my point:I learned and played guitar since a very long times;around 40 years now. I spent as much as 5/6 hours everyday at one times for 10 years practicing serious classical guitar.When someone was asking me to play or if I was playing a recital somewhere,did I intentionaly forget all about my playing technique and all musicality?...No!,I made sure to play the best I could for any audience.(Does this make sense?)

Now was this guy doing his best in demontrating an important part of the art he is representing ?...:confused:

I did my best to explain on my views. Over and out on this subject!...;)

old jong
11-01-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by black and blue
"Now I understand why you left Wing Chun!..."

If ever you are holidaying out my way (Hungary), drop me a line... am sure I can introduce you to this man who doesn't impress you - in person you'd certainly be in-pressed!

:D ;)

"In-pressed" That's a good one!...;)

YongChun
11-01-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by t_niehoff [/i]
good WCK punch is one that works for us, not one that meets certain fixed theoretical criteria but doesn't work for me. How "good" it is depends on who I can make it work against (their skill and attribute level). We'll never get rid of the "bickering" as long as we rely on "theoretical standards" -- as all theories are equal -- instead of effectiveness. When effectiveness becomes our foremost concern, then we'll all be on the same page.

Regards,

Terence

A punch that works for us might not be a good punch. Perhaps every boxing coach looking at your punch will say it is a crappy punch. If you see a car with wobbly wheels then you would conclude that the car is faulty. If you see a fighter with stances too low then you might conclude that he cannot be effectively mobile.

All theories are not equal. The theory that the shortest distance between two points is a curved line is not the same as the theory that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The theory that efficient fighting a good idea is not equivalent to the theory that any way of fighting is good.

Theory and effective fighting are not two different things. Theory is for making fighting more effective. Sometimes theory comes from paper and then is proven in practice. Sometimes practice produces a theory. Theories are destroyed by experiment. Sometimes paper theories can counter accepted theories that were based on observation and practical results.

The two , theory and practice go hand in hand. We shouldn't argue what' better theory or practice. Not all theories are equal that's why we do Wing Chun and not Karate or something else. Every art has their own theory which they have tested in practical combat. So from the practical combat we cannot conclude which theory is correct. That's not to say that everyone's theory is just as good or equal.

Practical combat is the goal but to conclude much from that is difficult other than the obvious that training hard is good. Speed , strength and timing are key factors in a fight.

To overcome someone with superior speed and strength, you need a theory which then gets tested against that speed and strength. You can tell in advance that if you juts fight someone who is faster and stronger than you and more experienced, then you will most likely suffer a very painful loss. You don't need to get broken up first before understanding that.

The question of how to train is rarely answered because no one has the answer. Everyone has their own answer. We cannot test the answers easily against the highest level opponents. Few people are willing to do that. Against lower level opponents, lots of things work. We all have this kind of experience.

Ray

PaulH
11-01-2004, 01:12 PM
History of the KFO has proven beyond any reasonable doubt what we have secretly known all along - an endless class bickering between the practicalists and the intellectualists where the later seem to be unbearably oppressed by the BigGorgious MMA, NHB, K-1, BBJ, etc.

This inevitably will bring about a new WC evolution - the WCnists where there will be no more class struggle. Everybody share and cooperate with each other as well as smile always in a very friendly and neighborly way... =D In another word, "You're okay I'm okay!" in every way!

Of course, Bruce was responsible for all of this. =)

old jong
11-01-2004, 01:17 PM
an endless class bickering between the practicalists and the intellectualists

Whatever made you think that "intellectualists" are not in fact practicing more than the "practicalists"?...More Wing Chun anyway?...;) ;) :D
You are talking about Wing Chun aren't you?...;)

AndrewS
11-01-2004, 01:30 PM
Amazing the sound and fury a little clip of Norbert Maday has generated. Everyone seems quite sure that he couldn't be engaging body as quickly as he engages arm and shoulder, but the clip basically drifts from some small images of his arms making contact with the dummy to his legs, with little chance to look at his body. Where you do see his body, torso and shoulder girdle are united, hip and shoulder together on the large motions.

I'm not impressed or dismayed by the clip; I just frankly think you can't tell much from it, and what little you can tell doesn't merit the scorn which is being heaped upon it.

My sense is that most of the commentary here comes from people who don't believe you could deliver functional power that quickly- at the speed of a fast boxer's combi. Having worked with someone who can, seen him freestyle the dummy, and felt him deliver said power under stress, I'm aware that this is possible.

A last note- you don't need to move a lot to support each action with the body, at a certain point you don't even need to move noticably. Even pausing this, it's quite hard to tell what's engaged in Maday's torso and legs wih each motion, if you care to claim otherwise, please point out specifics, something which have been rather lacking in this discussion.

Andrew

PaulH
11-01-2004, 02:03 PM
You're okay, Old Jong! =D

old jong
11-01-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
You're okay, Old Jong! =D

We are all okay around here!...;) BTW, I'm sure I could be friend with him and accompany him to the barber shop!...;) It's just an opinion on a small vido clip.It's not an overall jugement on his Wing Tsun or life!

anerlich
11-01-2004, 03:58 PM
"Whoever can do it the fastest."

LOL.

old jong
11-01-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by wingchunner


Granted I don't know what the clip is supposed to illustrate, perhaps he was showing what shouldn't be done. If you watch the clip of my instructor, you can see the connection to the ground as he works with the dummy. His head doesn't move very much. He penetrates the dummy with his body's energy. The body works together.

Here's the clip:
http://wing-chun.nu/cwc_video_misc.htm

As always we're always looking for serious students.

I want to say more, but I gotta get back to work.

Marty Yoder

Carl Deschiara shows great overall technique in that clip.He is improvising but never gets out of self-control. It shows.

See I can be positive too!...;)

lawrenceofidaho
11-03-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by AndrewS
A last note- you don't need to move a lot to support each action with the body, at a certain point you don't even need to move noticably.

This is a very good point, Andrew.

In all styles of martial arts, we witness beginners executing techniques with large & exaggerated (and comparitively wasteful) movements, while the more skilled practicioners' techniques grow increasingly more; tight, subtle, and efficient.

-Lawrence