Karate sparring...woowhoo!

[Martial Joe]

I have been talking to this girl who akes Karate.She said her instructor enjoys having people come in and want to spar with his students...(lightbulb!)...and I thought well this sounds nice...But I have never gone into another school and asked them this kinda stuff...
...I dont know if I should be really agressive like in a wing chun fight(that is the only way I know how unless the person is no where near a match)Maybe this wil be fun...some of you guys did tell me I shoulddo somehting like this...here is my chance...

So what do you cool wing chun guys think?

Joe Kavey the first...I think...

[Martial Joe]

I forgot to add,she asked me to go on wednsday...

[mikey]

sounds like an invitation to me,
go for it!
just make sure you talk to their instructor first to see if there are any rules you are expected to observe(no elbows,no head shots,etc.)
have fun! let us know how it went :)

[Martial Joe]

Anymore comments?

Martial Joe http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/new/hkp.gif

[EmptyCup]

A number of things to consider:

1) Asian martial artists sometimes act like they are open to people from other schools "exchanging" information by a friendly sparring session. What ends up happening is that these 'friendly' guys suddenly turn not-so-friendly and have to prove themselves and their egos. Instructors don't like losing face in front of the class and don't like students to lose face for their school. And students as well sure as heck don't want to lose face in front of their peers and their instructor.

2) Some people might stay friendly but become aggressive. They might not realize they are taking it too seriously but it happens all the time - even in your own school.

3) You heard that the teacher is open to people coming in to spar from your friend and not the teacher directly. Sometimes misunderstandings occur

4) Are you prepared to spar with strangers?

Just a few things to think about. In practice, visiting schools is mostly a negative experience although we all wish it could be different.

[whippinghand]

Don't forget that to these people, whether they think so or not, you will be a representing the Wing Chun system. So if you "fail", you fail Wing Chun.

Wing Chun is not to be played with politely in these situations. Between styles, there is no "polite" sparring.

[Reg]

Non agressive Ving Tsun? http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/sally/lol.gif Never heard of it.
Show them why karate is so bad compaired to Ving Tsun! http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/contrib/AoErat/meanie.gif

[Martial Joe]

Whipping Hand~I know what you mean.That is why I said I cant be non agressive when I spar,it just isnt wing chun...

EmptyCup~I am prepared to spar with them...
...I will be alright...

[EmptyCup]

OK, well make sure you tell us all what happens after wed :)

[BaekHoKwan]

Take caution. If you are allowed to spar, you will most likely be restricted to their rules. I'd wager their rules will take away much of your arsenal. I've studied Wing Chun, and also hold dan ranking in TKD. You will be restricted and frustrated by the rules of traditional Karate or TKD sparring. No leg kicks, trapping, holding, elbows, knees, punching to the face and other highly effective tactics you are in the habit of using.

Trust me, I speak from experience. Go and watch the first time. Be polite. Don't ask to fight or spar. Just represent Wing Chun well by being courteous, polite and respectful. Beating them at their own rules is highly unlikely, and beating them by violating their rules will make you look bad to them.

Keep it real.

C. Martin
Founder Baek Ho Kwan
Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame 00'

[benny]

go dude give em hell.

few tips.
dont listen when they tell you to stand at their range( kicking range). stand at yours it will freak them out straight away. when they say go attack. it sounds stupid but usually they say go then do their little step back and gaurd then start.
ive found that they usually kick because they think cause we dont kick like them we cant block them.
so just expect everything and you should be right. ;)

[EmptyCup]

uhhh, it wasn't me who wanted to go, it was Martial Joe :)

I'm the guy telling him to be cautious :)

btw, you studied wing chun AND TKD? good! please look at my post on "Entering Techniques" and answer all the questions I need answering!!!

Thank You :)

[Martial Joe]

Benny~Id like to here more about this...

C Martin...You goof :D


When you say it is highly unlikely to beat them at there own rules and ill look bad if I break them...WELL...what the hell should I do?

[OdderMensch]

Man i gotta talk to you. Your gonna be in FW this weekend right? At the event? What time does all that start? I can't enter, but it would be fun to watch.


:D

Oh yeah the topic......Um Karate Sparing right? Yeah! Um, keep your hands up. And look 'em in the eye when you bow, that realy ****es them off. Oh and if they are good, don't **** them off.

[wingchunwsl]

IMHO, i think you should try and go for it. if you think you're ready, do it. i'm not sure about going by their rules though. if it's you doing your thing, i'd say go for it then. if you do go on wed, i wish you good luck. :)

[Dragonhand]

Martial Joe
Member

From: Pittsfield,Massachusetts Usa
Registered: 01-26-01
Posts: 1279
Yip Man-Moy Yat-Doug Lee-My sifu John Kaufman-me
Yip Man-Tsui Sheung Tin-My Sifu-Me

Yip Man-Tsui Sheung Tin-Marty Anderson-My sifu-me

Meaning My sifu was tought by Doug,Tsui,& Marty...

With all this training why do have to ask if you should do this? Someone with the background and all this training whould have gone to the school and did what thay had to and walked away.Then told everyone about it on the forum. So, at the ripe old age of 14/15 you still have doughts. You should train more and worry about fighting less, IMHO.

[TjD]

wait until you know the system before going and making a fool out of yourself:) theres a lot more than just plain chi sau to wing chun, and if you dont know the system, dont go out trying to represent it

learn wing chun first, then you can go out and test it

how long have you been doing wing chun and how far into the system are you?

you have to remember that when you do things like this, you ARE representing your school, and can bring a bad name to it

peace
trav

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[S.Teebas]

Beware if it's a kyokoshinkai karate school Martal Joe. They train **** hard. Also, keep it friendly and show respect to the teacher or you'll be leaving on your a!


S.Teebas ;)

[WCFighter]

I agree with the fact that you should
sit this one out if you don't have a lot of
experience using your Wing Chun in a fighting context. You don't want your school to look bad.

Any seasoned martial artist of any style can
beat a beginner of any other style; remember that.

If you are confident of your abilities , then
go, BUT bring a friend with you.
If things get out of hand, you have someone there to back you up.

Before you fight, tell them you haven't been training for long. If you win, they will be impressed, if you lose, they won't be surprised and they won't gloat as much.

;)

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[dzu]

I agree that you should bring a friend, preferably a fellow WC classmate. He can give you moral support as well as corrections and help you analyze things objectively after the sesson so that you can learn from your experience.

I would check with the instructor to make sure that they don't mind. Clarify what the rules are ahead of time. Some things to ask are contact level (light, medium, hard), kicking below the belt, point system or free sparring, and off limit targets such as the head, back, groin, and joints. Make sure you have the proper equipment (mouthpiece, groin cup, gloves, headgear, etc.) and find out if shoes are allowed. Don't be afraid to stop and thank your partner and take a rest. Spar different people if you get the chance and leave your ego at the door. If you get a bad vibe then leave. This is not WC vs Karate. This is you trying to apply your WC in a friendly environment. If the atmosphere turns sour, get out as politely as you can.

I've sparred a couple times with Karate style people where we were sharing space. We were not allowed to wear shoes and had to wear headgear. They sparred both points and free. Only groin and joint hits were disallowed.

THings that worked for me include:
1) kicking their kicks - they soon became timid when kicking because I would kick their kicks and then close the gap. Since they usually didn't do this, they were unused to the contact.

2) forward intention when chasing and bridging the gap - they had the mentality of hitting and darting back out; either intercept them before they finish or follow them as they try to back away. Receive what comes, escort what leaves, and if the way is free, rush in!

3) Pak da and tan da worked well for me. Lop da was hard because of the gloves. Often we were separated after one or two 'exchanges' or they would back away from the pressure. Take advantage of the opportunity to work your timing, positioning, footwork, and chasing skills against unfamiliar opponents.

4) Practice stepping into a kick rather than backing away. Use kwun sau and gaun sau against high kicks since you can't attack the knees. If you time it right you can knock them down with your body structure as you enter. They'll probably call foul or stop kicking high.

Try to apply your WC. Don't become some odd hybrid kickboxer to compete with them because you won't learn anything that way. Be prepared for some backhanded comments from them if you start smacking them around. Things like: "You wouldn't have been able to do that if it were for real!", "We don't allow kicking to the legs here", "You're too aggressive, that can be used against you on the street", and/or "We don't allow trapping or grabbing here because it's too dangerous".

If they have a referee and it's point sparring, be prepared to have counts go against you and your hits discounted. Keep your head up and just take it as a learning experience and not a challenge match. Don't let their comments get to you and mess with your head. Be confident of your skills and find out what you did wrong. Don't be afraid to get hit. Thank them and be polite.

regards,

Dzu

[whippinghand]

Even if rules are established, it's difficult to play on someone else's terms. You're visiting their club. They have to protect their integrity as well. They will take the option of "taking it up a notch" if necessary while you may continue to be polite. It is very open to misunderstandings as to what is allowed and what isn't, what is acceptable on the part of the "fighters" (i.e. what is in each fighter's head).

[Martial Joe]

Well...all the comments so far were helpfull...

By the way the style of karate is uechi ryu...

[rogue]

As a karate and TKD guy my advice would be to visit and watch, or behave like the white belt that you are in their school. Going all out trying to use your WC will make you look like a jerk, and you might miss good cross-training opportunities with these folks in the future.

Basically behave like you'd like visitors to your school to behave.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Martial Joe]

Well,I asked her about the rules...she said anything goes accept head shots and grions shots.
She said that they get agressive.
I asked her if she knew what wing chun was...they never mentioned it to her in her school...

Rougue...I plan on watching at first.She said her instructor will ask me to join the class though.


Martial Joehttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif

[whippinghand]

Obviously he will be faced with a challenge diguised as an invitation.

I'm sure all of you guys know how people are quite eager to say, "You see, Wing Chun doesn't work after all."

[Shadowboxer]

Be polite and visit/watch first. Talk to the instructor to get a feel for what kind of instructor they are. In my kwoon, if we want to test our techniques, Sifu will arrange it for us at some other school. Perhaps, yours would do the same? Also, ask to be paired with someone who has been training for an equal amount of time. Good luck. Remember you should have fun. I got a chance to touch hands with one of my Sifu's Mantis students last night and it was fun. I learned that I need to incorporate more footwork and not just stick hands- he was too skilled for that. Learn something from your encounter.

[rogue]

If he asks you to join Joe, then give it a try.
Try to get there a little early and maybe talk to some of the Black Belts and the instructor. This will also give you a chance to get a feel for them. Take your shoes off and bow in, a little respect can go a long way.

Contrary to what Whipping hands is woofing about, I've rarely come across people like he describes, unless of course you go in with a badass attitude.

Look at it as a chance to learn, being able to get a first hand look at how another style moves will definatly help your WC and maybe show what parts of your style you may have to work on. Who knows you may even get some new people to practice with outside of class.

Good luck

And don't rush them when they're turning they're backs to you, they might be setting you up for a side or back kick. ;)


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Martial Joe]

Well if they are close enough and shorter then kicking range and they turn their back ill try and jam them and send them on their faces.


Well...WhippingHand...is a badass :eek:


Martial Joe http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif

[Martial Joe]

And I know he is going to ask,but ill act like I dont know that and just watch at first...then I will spar with them...

I will try and make it early...

[halfling]

Hey, I am one of C. Martin's students and I have some answers for you about the event this weekend. Yes we will be in Fort Worth on Saturday and the festivities begin at 9:30 AM. Please come and watch. We would all love to have you. Thanks.

Baek Ho Kwan Forever!!

[Martial Joe]

Halfling rymes with bling bling...

[wingchunwsl]

i'm pretty sure you have the upper hand. good luck my wing chun bro!

[whippinghand]

Screw this "learning" BS.

You learn Wing Chun from your sifu, not from a Karate class.

[Rolling Elbow]

someone comes in teh school and challeneges..they say "fight my student first and prove your worth"..as the student fights, the master watches and picks up the movements of the style that the opponent represents. when it comes to his turn to fight, he already has an advantage into the fighting style of the challenger.

So just reverse it..attend the school and ask to see two students sparring so you can "see what exactly their rules and intensity are like". you will seem respectufl and you will get a quick view into uechi ryu karate and what they can do.

There's a thought..but if you go, be prepared to cross hands.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[dzu]

You (general you) learn the system of WC from your Sifu, but it's just theory until you apply it and experience it yourself. Some things that your Sifu can do, you might not be able to due to size or preference. Some things that work well against a vertical fist will not work as well against a horizontal fist due to the biomechanics and leverage involved.

WC is more than just a collection of forms and techniques. There are fundamental skills such as timing, positioning, body structure, and bridging that require a partner. Practicing and developing these skills against people from other styles can be invaluable since it will force you to adapt to unknown situations and get you out of your comfort zone.

Even if it is point sparring with tournament rules, there is always the opportunity to practice intercepting on an uncooperative opponent. You don't have to play their game. You can still play your game within their limited rules by isolating certain things to work on. So what if you lose all the point matches. Maybe you can learn something about footwork and timing.

I don't recommend making this a major portion of one's training, but if the opportunity presents itself then it can be beneficial as a training aid and gut check. Training with people from other MA can be an eye opening experince and help you see outside of the box.

regards,

Dzu

[bratok304]

Show em what karate really is, compared to WC... hahha, can't wait to know what happened....hahaha, omg, karate....hahaha.... :mad: :D :D

[Martial Joe]

Rolling Elbow...
...I know this man!!!!! :eek:


I am nothing...blah blah blah....

[Martial Joe]

Rolling Elbow...
This is why I am going to watch the class for a while...That would be splended advice if I didnt already know it... :D

I am nothing...Blah Blah Blah

You have stupi wing chun and tea kwon do mixed stuff so dont say that stuff about karate...
...And might I add Rougue will beat you up!!!!! :mad:

[rogue]

So some of you are suggesting that a 14 year old go to someones school and try and start something?

Genius, pure genius


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[whippinghand]

Adapting is a very dangerous notion.

[whippinghand]

If what rogue says is true. I take back everything I said. Don't go, you'll probably get your BUTT kicked.

[Martial Joe]

Well I am going at 6...
...I will come back with a story...hopefully...

Dont wish me luck...I wont need it...They arent bad people...

[Martial Joe]

I just called my Sifu...he gave me some wing chunly advice...

Je basicaly said if they are in kicking range move in and punch...it will be to late for them to kick because ill be entering with a kick,and he said if they get an arm up,pull it down and hit with the other,and just do some good old wing chun...

[Shadowboxer]

Hey Joe,

Didn't realize that you were 14. Don't get yourself hurt. If you do decide to go make sure you fight another 14 yr. old.

[EmptyCup]

I think Joe, you're position is pretty good. I mean, most of those guys would hold back when fighting a 14 yr old so you can try your hardest without much worries.

If you beat them, then you'll feel good :)

If they do try their hardest and you lose, then it's ok, you're only 14 :)

If they try their hardest and you win, then it's even better :)

if they don't try their hardest and still win, then again it's ok cuz youre 14 :)

Good luck!

please don't be offended. I am in no way trying to belittle you or mock your ability but merely stating how outsiders will view it. I am not much older than you but when I was 14 I was better than most adults so I don't place too much emphasis on the whole age thing. Just thought you should know...

[dzu]

Exposure to the unknown can be a great learning experience. Investing in loss to learn from one's mistakes can only lead to improvement. The danger lies in not being exposed to other ways of doing things and other methods of fighting and believing in something without testing it within reason. Only by applying WC against a variety of systems can one become truly well rounded and experienced.

I am not suggesting that a challenge need to be issued nor am I endorsing causing trouble. I am encouraging friendly exchanges that can be mutally beneficial. If any doubts arise and persist, then discretion is the better part of valor. Be polite and thank them for watching the class but don't step onto the mat. Trust your gut instincts and bring a friend for back up and moral support. Like people have said above, watch and observe first and decide for yourself if you want to participate or not. Start out light and increase intensity until you don't feel comfortable anymore. Treat the other person courteously and they will most likely do the same. If they need to bad mouth WC to mask their own insecurities, nod politely and just let it go. Arguing with ignorant people will only give them satisfaction and frustrate you. At the end of it, shake their hand if they treated you courteously.

I've never had a situation turn sour during my time of friendly exchanges with people from other systems. I've had more problems with other WC people trying to tell me that theirs is the one true way. Just remember that this is a learning experience for YOU and not a defense of Wing Chun's honor. Use common sense, be courteous, and you should be ok.

regards,

Dzu

[Martial Joe]

Well guys I am annoyed...


I went,I shook the intrctors hand,and I watched the class.There were only a bunch of girls there and I would not fight any of them because I know what would happen if I did.I was hoping in fighting the instructor or the adult students(one was a green belt and also my lawyer!and the other was a brown belt)I think I could have held my own...


I was very bored and glad their classes were short,and I am disopointed and I am sure all of you are...I know you were all very exited :eek:

The only cool part was when the girl that asked me to go,gave me a whole bag of beef jerky on my way out! :D

Joe Kaveyhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif

[dzu]

Martial Joe,

You can always try next time but I wouldn't use the word "fighting" :D It might get things off on the wrong foot...

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

I think by saying "fight" so much, it makes it sound as if you weren't prepared for the experience. It's just a learning experience and not a way to prove anything or fight for fun.

You sound as if you were disappointed that you missed a brawl :)

well, there's always next time - you're young enough.

[EmptyCup]

hmmm...dzu beat me to it :)

Yeah, it just makes it sound as if you're not mature enough to do something like this. Maturity is not physical age, but mental development.

I hope I'm not sounding like our buddy Whipping Hand here :)

[Martial Joe]

Thanks Tzu...


EmptyCup...Yeah you cought me..I was disopointed because of that reason...

You have seen my post summer fighting right?

Well I get hassled by some one in it and I tell him why I want to get into a couple fights this summer...For experience...for myself,not to prove anything...

So I will continue to use the word fight...

[bratok304]

ya piece of ****, freaking hypocrite, i hoped that the girls beat the crap outta you ya **** head.... TKD and WC, you ****, I would kick your little ***** ass without using my wc and your "real" wing chun wouldn't stand a chance you little ****, dont try to reply to this msg or talk on aim ya kid. I wont read.

"The most important thing in communication is hearing what isn't being said."
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."

[rogue]

Someone needs some growing up before they get their fool self hurt.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Reg]

No fighting! http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/scorchio/shmmm.gif

Should have at least got a phone # if it was a room full of girls http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/contrib/scorchio/sasmokin.gif

[whippinghand]

I take that as a compliment.

[EmptyCup]

Whipping Hand, :)

that's cool :)

were you going to say something similar to Joe?

[Anarcho]

I think you've learned an important lesson today, Joe. Not sure what it is, though. Maybe something to do with jerky.

Soup is good food.

[WCFighter]

Why does a 14 year old have a lawyer?!!!!!!!! :confused:

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Are you sure its jerky!! ;)

[tiger_1]

my friends im have many that many fight vs karate mens (sotokan,waderju ect..) but that karate is that bad so im just thinks fight vs karate mens is just lost time noting else. - just my experience and oppoinion tiger_1 ;) but is have good disciplin and have strong muvie ;) ;)

/

[NafAnal]

Thing about karate guys is that they excel in long range, they punch very fast and often with the hand chambered. How would a good wing chun guy counter their punches? They are often in and out before the wing chun guy can close the distance or parry and trap.

[EmptyCup]

You punch them when they're chambering :)

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun is a long-range and close-range art, that does not block punches.

[rogue]

Where are you guys finding karateka that spar or fight by using a fullchambering their fists? I take both karate and trad. TKD and neither does that past yellow belt.

If you find these guys be my guest and knock some sense into them and their instructors.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[S.Teebas]

Karate guys do this in TRAINING...as in most moves they train with. But actual fighting the moves are shortened.... (i think rogue just said that but what hell!) :D


S.Teebas

[Sharky]

"the girl that asked me to go,gave me a whole bag of beef jerky on my way out!"

erm... i dunno what that means in america, but if i got a whole bag of "beef jerky" i'd be a happy guy...

Edd

My anus is superior™

[phoenix-eye]

Heh heh

"Ow! That chafes!!!"

[Martial Joe]

Yo bros I am back...

Sharky~Where have you been man!

Rogue~IamNothing is an anus...