Would you trust your Wing Chun in a street confrontation?

[old jong]

Would you trust your Wing Chun punches for power or fall back on boxing techniques in fear of not hitting hard enough?...

[AmanuJRY]

Yes, I would. Knowing that my punches are connected to the ground through my center and footwork, and that power is generated through that connection regardless of style, and that WC is about structure which allows for better transmission of power generated from the ground to the point of contact (center of opponent), then I would say that I'm quite confident that my WC punches are more effective than any other punch that I could throw.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Clearly this thread is in response to my story on another thread...if I was as good in Wing Chun then as I am now...(that fight took place quite a few years ago)...I might have taken the first man out with a phoenix knuckle wing chun strike to the carotid or something...

but the boxer's uppercut as a response to the attempted headlock from the second man...

NOW THAT'S ANOTHER STORY!

It was a perfect choice as a move to use at that moment.

Hey Ernie, Anerlich, Dhira, Terence, AndrewS, etc...

DO I SMELL ANOTHER WING CHUN/MMA THREAD COMING DOWN THE ROAD?

Hey! Why don't we hijack this thread and turn it onto one?!

[old jong]

Now,you're looking at my question through your personal lenses!...
It is a valid question even if your post gave me the idea. I don't need to explain this and in regard to "drama thread"...You're the ultimate!...:rolleyes:


Hey Ernie, Anerlich, Dhira, Terence, AndrewS, etc...

Calling for your little friends?...:rolleyes:

I agree about the uppercut BTW.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

Hey! Why don't we hijack this thread and turn it onto one?!

An other of your specialities?...Go on!...:rolleyes:

[KingMonkey]

Why not either depending on range and circumstance ?

[old jong]

BTW Victor
How can somebody answer properly if you keep on editing your posts?...

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by old jong
Would you trust your Wing Chun punches for power or fall back on boxing techniques in fear of not hitting hard enough?...

How could I "fall back on boxing techniques" if I've never trained boxing?

Someone who actually studied boxing once said I move a lot like a boxer. To which my smart-aleck reply was immediately: "Of course, because I am boxing ... Southern Chinese Boxing, that is." :)

Currently, at a week post-op for knee surgery (ACL reconstruction, partial menisectomy), I'm not doing too much moving at the moment. :(

[kj]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
Currently, at a week post-op for knee surgery (ACL reconstruction, partial menisectomy), I'm not doing too much moving at the moment. :(

Boy, can I relate! Recovering from yet another partial meniscectomy myself. At least we can still try and exercise the mind. ;)

Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery!

Regards,
- kj

[taltos]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
Currently, at a week post-op for knee surgery (ACL reconstruction, partial menisectomy), I'm not doing too much moving at the moment. :(

Yow! I hope all is well and the recovery is smooth.

-Levi

[old jong]

How could I "fall back on boxing techniques" if I've never trained boxing?

Mimicking boxing would have been a better way to formulate it. Put two little boys in a schoolyard fight and they will most of the times try to imitate boxing.It is natural.
All the best with your knee Tom!

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong-
I have complete faith in my wing chun punches etc in case of a real confrontation. I know what boxing punches are.
The platform and motion chain of those two activities are quite different.
Superficially some punches may look similar but in fact the engines and chain of power are quite different.The learning curve of boxing is faster at the beginning. But when kung fu skill development takes place the situation changes....from then on.

[Ernie]

Calling for your little friends?...

hey old j
nothing little about me , especially my punching power , wing chun or other wise :)

those that have felt can verify :D

in a street fight , you use what ever it takes if you limit yourself to this or that you are a fool , and deserve a beat down

but this being said . i can hit '' safer '' with less risk of injury with a wing chun punch [ not punches ] i hate the chain punch

but explosive power can very easily be expressed through the elbow down vertical punch

the reason i say safer is when you can hit with your whole body
and you deviate from the '' wing chun '' punch and favor a boxing punch , the chances of hurting your hand or wrist are much higher

if you hit like a wuss it doesn't mater ;)

now back to you '' little '' discussion :cool:

[KenWingJitsu]

Only thing little about me is the amount of tolerance I have for kung fu trolls.

Victor, I have a better idea. i say we organize a "Wing Chun Gathering" where we show up to PROVE our theories in person. 6 ounce gloves and a mouthpiece & no talking (keyboards not allowed); and we see who no shows.

Dhira.

[Ernie]

Just to add.

I have been hit by '' the little friends ‘‘ dhira, Andrew, and Justin

All have more then enough to put someone’s lights out, with out resorting to a jab, cross, hook


First hand experience is a beautiful thing

Keeps the BS down to a minimal
:D
6 ounce gloves and a mouthpiece & no talking (keyboards not allowed); and we see who no shows.

Dhira.
----- d amn he said 6 ounce gloves ouch ;)

[russellsherry]

hi guys yes i would but as sifu wong shun leunrg might say nearest, weopon to nearest target, sometimes it is not good to use the chain punches always, the last fight i had i did not use
chain punches, at all i used ginger fist and po pai technique,which
was tuaght to me,by my sifu randy williams, in a rather hard chi sau leeson i seem to remember, every time you fight be driffrent to the fight you had the last, my technique is depending of what the other guy is going to do hey kathy jo get well soon peace russellsherry
,

[Shawn LaShay]

Hi guys,
Why not use eiher or?
Shawn

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
those that have felt can verify :D

still verifying.:D

(..he says, rubbing his chest)

[old jong]

Wow!..The gang phenomenom is strong!...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

A wonderful idea!


Ernie:

Agree about the possibility of hurting a hand with a boxing punch - the wing chun punch is safer. (Rule of thumb: Always look for a soft target when throwing a boxing punch without gloves).

Michel (Old Jong):

The body torque using the rear cross will provide more power than one single wing chun punch...if you're looking for a one punch knockout, imo.

Now here's the key to understanding that statement - regarding this particular fight that I engaged in...

DISTANCE.

In order to use the straight-forward body motion that Ernie correctly described - which provides power to the wing chun punch...I would have had to have been closer to the adversary than I was...

but the motion used when delivering a rear cross...is a longer motion (and therefore covers a longer distance while building up power from the hips, the shoulder, the feet and legs) - and the potential for power is therefore slightly greater (like the windup of a baseball pitcher with a dominant fastball)...

slightly greater than ONE, SINGLE WING CHUN PUNCH.

It's more of a telegraph - I agree - and takes longer to recover from than the wing chun punch (hence the attempted headlock was there for the other guy to try)...but the power potential, imo, FOR ONE SINGLE PUNCH...is greater with the cross - AT THAT DISTANCE.

(Unless you've got that phoenix knuckle to the carotid really down!)

Which I didn't have at that time.

[kj]

Thanks, Russell. I'm doing a little better every day.

All the best to you as well!
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
Wow!..The gang phenomenom is strong!...

on both sides :o

[Lindley57]

Old Jong,

While reading the interesting posts here I felt compelled to respond. The path to understanding is continual, hence the application of your Kung Fu, in a combat sense, must truly manifest itself as part of you. Your Kung Fu is not something to turn on and turn off. In a street confrontation one can express it and win or express it and lose. But it will be expressed. The Kung Fu may not require one blow! In discussions about training, our goals must be to trust what we know and to learn and understand how to commit, words often used in a relationship. The word "trust" means without thought. It is very strong and we have to believe. We train the Chun, and as mentioned, why would we revert to something (boxing) we know less about? We must offer our best. One will do as one will.

Most of us do not go looking for a street confrontation. It will often times take us by surprise. Like a sparring match, there are many other factors which affect your ability and performance like nervousness and state of mind, emotion. However, in real life street confrontations, there is also the life or death entity, which is not a part of sparring. There is also the law, which we must be aware of the consequences of our actions. If you read some stories about Wing Chun people who have used their skill in real fights, they often say that they did not even remember what happened. They just "did".

Maybe your question really is "Do you think your Kung Fu is good enough to use in a Street confrontation?"

"If you want your Kung Fu good, then your Kung Fu is good!"

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by russellsherry
every time you fight be driffrent to the fight you had the last, my technique is depending of what the other guy is going to do Russell,
Sounds like good Wing Chun to me. :)

Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
Recovering from yet another partial meniscectomy myself. Kathy Jo and Tom,

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Bill

P.S. KJ, it must be more difficult with the wooden leg and all. ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Why not either depending on range and circumstance ? I can't think of a "range" or cirumstance that I would use boxing techniques as opposed to WC hands.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by old jong
Mimicking boxing would have been a better way to formulate it. Put two little boys in a schoolyard fight and they will most of the times try to imitate boxing.It is natural.
All the best with your knee Tom!


:confused:

What kind of schoolyard were you in, anyway? ;)


Do you remember the knife fight where "Mellish" was killed in the last battle scene of "Saving Private Ryan?" That kind of reminds me of what is schoolyard "natural" around here - downright ugly, and doesn't resemble or imitate anything other than being vicious.

It's not a real streetfight unless you spend the next several weeks looking over your shoulder for the payback - or planning it.

Say hello to my little friend. (http://www.barbspics.com/df204ap/humorq-z/humorq-z110.html)

[taltos]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
Do you remember the knife fight where "Mellish" was killed in the last battle scene of "Saving Private Ryan?" That kind of reminds me of what is schoolyard "natural" around here - downright ugly, and doesn't resemble or imitate anything other than being vicious.

It's not a real streetfight unless you spend the next several weeks looking over your shoulder for the payback - or planning it.

AMEN to that.

-Levi

[Vajramusti]

As several folks have pointed out wing chun shapes the individual- reflexes, mind. self etc--- it is not a collection of techniques.

Knowing when and how not to fight as well as fight is part of good wing chun.

Per same reasoning- wing chun is not limited to a particular range or angle or distance. Admittedly, it takes a while to understand that. Not all awkenings are instantaneous.

[KingMonkey]

Well first off my perspective may be a little different because I do train regular boxing.
If you dont or never have better to stick to WC.
But my thinking goes along these lines. My cross is my hardest punch, in a circumstance where I think I've got a clear shot or a very good chance I'll use it.

For example......

I'm being hassled while minding my own business in a pub.
I've tried my verbal outs, I've remained seemingly uninterested in a fight and it appears things are going to get physical. If I decide to take the initiative and hit first I will more likely throw a cross as my first punch because I think I have a better chance of ending it right there.

[Vajramusti]

A punch is just a punch...

[KingMonkey]

Weeelll true but a little bit simplistic isnt it, couldnt we discuss the relative merits of a Ferrari vs a Ford Pinto without losing sight of the fact that they are both cars.
Could we make reasonable predictions about which would win a road race and which you would likely be able to buy for under $200.

If you have a point to make please help out a poor misguided cross trainer with something a bit more substantial.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

It seems kind of funny to me that many who study Wing Chun are not confident in their ability to utilize it in a real situation. Wing Chun is a combat art plain and simple. There should be little doubt of its effectiveness in a real life encounter. Wing Chun is not about overpowering your opponent, although the body structure can make strikes quite powerful. Wing Chun is a very efficient and economical method of brutally destroying ones opponent. When I first learned Wing Chun my instructor taught me to focus and concentrate on four target areas, the eyes, the throat, the groin and the kneecaps. The intention was to totally destroy your opponent and their ability to continue the fight.

IMHO, much of the problem lies in the fact that many of us train for something other than reality. Due to the popularity of Wing Chun and the needs of a commercial school, techniques which advocate brutality, are distanced and in some cases no longer taught at all. Another issue to consider is that many today place more emphasis on Chi Sau and “play” at Wing Chun rather than actually train to use it as a brutally effective method of combat.

If one learns to apply the concepts of the system with the proper mental focus then Wing Chun is not only a viable method of combat but extremely effective. However, there is a definite mental aspect needed in order for the system to be truly effective and in many cases this is where the problem occurs. The method is there but the will to use it is not.

In answer to the question posed; I am quite sure that Wing Chun will not fail me in a real encounter. However, I can not always make the claim that I will not, in some way, fail Wing Chun.

Peace,

Dave.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Well first off my perspective may be a little different because I do train regular boxing. KingMonkey,

I think you have to go with what you're comfortable with. Ultimately you need to say you used your best stuff, win or lose. I definitely understand that.

Bill

[Vajramusti]

Weeelll true but a little bit simplistic isnt it,

((Skill in complexity makes things simple))

couldnt we discuss the relative merits of a Ferrari vs a Ford Pinto without losing sight of the fact that they are both cars.

((the key is the driver. A good driver can use both or either. A poor one would underusea Ferrari))

Could we make reasonable predictions about which would win a road race and which you would likely be able to buy for under $200.

((Wing chun is not about road racing))

If you have a point to make please help out a poor misguided cross trainer with something a bit more substantial.

(( I was commenting to the list. Nothing personal. If cross training is your bag- what can I say- just some basics....
understanding spatial relationships is part of extended wing chun devlopment. There is considerable variety of footwork and motion and the basic char kuen creates a whole multitude of fist work-same for palms or any other tool. Boxing is a sport a very good martial sport-can work in many cases- but is not as versatile and adaptive as wingchun. A average boxer can be taken bya good wrestler. Reverse is also true. Wing chun is a martial skill development- hasa synthesis of many sportive elements.If one is enough into wing chun - a wing chun reflexive and timed action(s) will show up. If one is more into boxing- a boxing punch will show up.
Will either work- yes- depends on circumstances- hence a punch is just a punch))

[YongChun]

Whether you can use your Wing Chun or not depends against who or what? It's meaningless to say you can use your Wing Chun without discussing the type of opponent. Everyone has limits.

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey:

Vajramusti (Joy Chauduri) will lead you in circles if you give him half the chance - no matter how logical your arguments. He will find a way to bypass them while giving the illusion that he's actually answering them.

So let me just save you a lot of time and trouble...the key to understanding Joy in this instance is like this...he believes that GOOD WING CHUN DOESN'T NEED BOXING...or anything else, for that matter. For his untested (and never to be tested waters) - wing chun has the answer to ANY and ALL fighting situations.

Once you understand that - you've got the key to understanding 90% of his posts.

But as to this...

"My cross is my hardest punch, in a circumstance where I think I've got a clear shot or a very good chance I'll use it...If I decide to take the initiative and hit first I will more likely throw a cross as my first punch because I think I have a better chance of ending it right there."

I agree with this statement totally...because good wing chun FIGHTERS must be humble enough and wise enough to borrow and adapt from other styles when the shoe fits.

[AmanuJRY]

First in wing chun we learn/teach the elbow-down straight punch, because it is the easiest to establish the connection to the ground via the hip/footwork, once this 'feeling' is known you learn to use it in strikes of any angle. Besides;

Chum Kiu - 'Lifting Punch' = uppercut
Biu Jee - '???' - hooking punch (after grabs)


They're all WC punches when applied with WC dynamics.;)

[anerlich]

Would you trust your Wing Chun in a street confrontation?

No. I'd trust Sanford Strong's advice, which says your overriding goal as the subject of a violent assault is to ESCAPE. Winning is not the goal, surviving is.

Read Marc MacYoung's definition of a "streetfight" and a "streetfighter" in his book "Taking it to the Streets". No sane person would want anything to do with either, let alone become a "streetfighter".

[kj]

Your perspective on a matter of such seriousness is consistent, prudent, and refreshing, Anerlich.

Regards,
- kj

[Vajramusti]

Ultimatewingchun sez:

Once you understand that - you've got the key to understanding 90% of his posts.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Nick Forrer]

yes and 55% of people know that 60% of statistics are wrong 26% of the time;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha!

[old jong]

Strong's book is full of good advices and it tells the truth.The right mindset, focus and decision can help someone more in a real situation than martial art alone.But the martialy educated person can produce more effective counter moves,save his life and flee if he does not act as if he was in the octogon or something.The worst cases are the "badass" martial art guy who decides out of ego to "show" his attacker how to behave.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YongChun
Whether you can use your Wing Chun or not depends against who or what? It's meaningless to say you can use your Wing Chun without discussing the type of opponent. Everyone has limits. Ray,
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this statement. Why would I not use my Wing Chun on one person versus another?

Bill

[Vyvial]

old jong,

My perspective is a little different from some but my opinion is that Ving Tsun doesn't teach a style of kung fu to use in fighting, instead Ving Tsun is just a vehicle to give my body Kung Fu. It teaches my weakest aspects to be my strongest so that i can now use anything i want in a fight. Whatever stance I happen to be in is my Kung Fu, if I use a rounded punch with body mechanics to get around a technique in a real fight and it works well.... Is that bad Kung Fu? Is that bad Ving Tsun?

If I'm using Ving Tsun as my method of gaining kung fu, then well.... if it works then it's good Ving Tsun in a real fight.

Our training follows a very different approach, where we train for perfection, where things are very defined but in "real" practice we except no limitations.

Aaron Vyvial

[YongChun]

"Ray,
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this statement. Why would I not use my Wing Chun on one person versus another?

Bill"

What I mean is that I am sure there are thousands of people I can beat up using my Wing Chun. Yet there are also thousands who can beat me up. So if someone asks me if I can use my Wing Chun then what do I say? I work in an office all day long and Wing Chun is my part time hobby. Some people like some Thai boxers train all day long so it would be unlikely that my art works against them. Emin Boztepe and Kenneth Chung put in 20,000 hours of training so my Wing Chun also would not work against them. But I have met lots of martial artists and my Wing Chun was OK against them.

Some people on this newsgroup talk about being realistic otherwise the training is like swimming on dry land. Sometimes I wonder what this really means? I know some Karate people that sparred a lot, fought in tournaments a lot but got beat up on the street. Their Karate looked very good, they were very fast and had very good looking form. But on the street they didn't get the distance and timing quite right. So they lost.

So how do you train to handle a group of thugs fighting you in such a way that you can be confident? If you fight a lot for real that's great but sooner or later it will get you killed off. Heavy duty sparring is great for tough young lads but once you hit your 60's your body is just not the same where you want to jog 20 miles, pound the bag thousands of times, engage in strenuous mat grappling, do jumping kicks and spar against young strong and fast 20 year olds. etc. That's a young man's thing.

The old classical way of training in Hong Kong consisted of maybe 99% chi sau yet they did OK in street fights. They just used their reflex skills and some courage to go in and trust their hands (of course they also trained their punch) and they did ok. The average street fighter probably isn't that much different these days except weapons and multiple opponents are more the norm. But now people are saying Chi sau is not that useful. You must train like Thai kickboxers part of the week and like grapplers the other part of the week. Classical Kung Fu is looked upon as being useless.

I am sure if I punch many people that they would be dead real fast. However if I punch some of the WWF people or people like Tank Abbot then maybe they won't even feel it. Maybe no training will help me with that, So against some people I can use my skills. Against others I can't.

Sometimes I think some Wing Chun people are deluding themselves since they really have no advantage against a kickboxer that trains equally hard. Both have a good punch, both have a good sense of distancing and timing. Throw out Chi sau and then what is left that really gives a big advantage?

I guess people are just talking generalities that one should train as realistically as possible and that you really need to fight a lot in order to be a good fighter. That's OK but there are different ways to train. Some of the old day classically trained fighters got pretty good too. From what I have seen, only a few people want to train in a real intense way. Few people who have jobs and families want to risk getting injured. For most Wing Chun is just a hobby. There is no big money in Wing Chun competitive fighting so the risks of too realistic training is not warranted.

It's rare that people end up using their art for real. So few people know if their hard training would work or not. If it does work against someone in a few fights that may only mean the opponent was no good not that you were good or your training paid off.

I see Wing Chun as something to maximize one's capabilities within the constraints of one's available time to train and within the constraints of the quality of instructor one can acquire and within the constraints of one's age and injuries. Also there are maybe a handful of well known recognized Wing Chun teachers who are supposed to be very good. Students of these people often look down on everyone else's Wing Chun. But the good people can't spread themselves around to all the countries easily. So not eveyone is lucky to have top notch instruction. But just hard work can still do a lot. For many people it would be a waste of time to have a top fighter teach them too. I don't think it would help a new out of shape guy who wants to learn boxing to have Mike Tyson as his coach.

It would be nice to see the students of those people who talk reality to show some results eventually so that everyone can use these results as kind of a model. I know lots of schools just spend time doing forms and Chi sau for the majority of their training. Other schools are similar to kickboxing clubs except they substitute the chain punch for every occasion.

I know Emin Boztepe is a good fighter and Augustine Fong is a good fighter. I just mention those names as arbitrary names (substitute anyone's names). Some people say these guys can use their Wing Chun to fight. Some people doubt they can handle a lot of todays good fighters and would say they can't fight. So it comes down to the definition of who is the oppponent and what does being able to fight mean.

Do we all need a punch poweful enough to stop a 240 pound guy running at us with an airshield. As far as physics is concerned I don't think a 100 pound lady can ever do this. But I think she can develop the 20 pounds of force needed to break an average person's nose or to develop her thumb to take out an eye or to develop her positioning and timing such that the first strike from an attacker (depending on who again) won't take her out with the first punch.

Ray

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ray:

This is the year 2004...not Hong Kong - back in the day...different places...different circumstances. I cover all of what you are about to read with a small group of students (including a two hour chi sao/wooden dummy class - once a week)...a wing chun and then wrestling on-the-mats class for two hours once-a-week...and a three hour wing chun, skill attribute, street self defense, and contact sparring class once-a-week.

It can be done without training 20,000 hours...

What can be done? Preparing and training for the following...which I've reprinted from a different thread:

You need to DEDICATE yourself to ALL possible ranges...because you may be forced to actually defend yourself in a fight from any and all possible situations.

You don't always have the choice of picking which way the fight is going to go.

You could have been taken by surprise...you could have slipped on a banana peel...you could have made a mistake...your adversary could be highly skilled....extremely aggressive about taking you to the ground...huge in comparison to you...high on drugs...or a steroid freak...you could be attacked by two people simultaneously...

The list is endless.

Take the time to learn all of the ranges well...which doesn't mean that you have to spend exactly equal amounts of time on each...the standup ranges (mostly Wing Chun - but not always) should command more of your time - because you don't want to go to the ground unless you have to (in real streetfighting) - but still make it your business to be very good on the ground.

Learn and train sweeps, throws, takedowns...locks and throws...AND ESPECIALLY have at least a half dozen different defenses in your arsenal against all of these same moves - because they could be coming at you in various ways. They could be coming for your leg...or both legs...with their head on the inside...or with their head on the outside - or in the middle...or coming in for a hip throw at the middle of your body...or coming for a bearhug or headlock and throw, a suplex throw from behind, a bullrush football-player tackle, etc.

These kinds of attacks are very common - are you prepared to face them? Are you prepared to face them even after your first/second line of Wing Chun defense has perhaps been breached? Maybe your Wing Chun skills stopped them in their tracks...but if not?

And are you prepared to really give it your best shot at getting out from an armlock/choke/bearhug/headlock/mount position...after it's been initiated or applied tightly?

No? Why not? Somebody told you it's not really necessary?

That was bad advice...not very practical.

[Ernie]

Victor
[[[ This is America in the year 2004...]]]]

every post should start off with that [ insert your country in the America part ]

instead of what do you think happened in 1805


There is more then enough time to train , just stay off the computer , don't be a zombie in front of the telelvision ,
but if your married with children forget it Al Bundy your life is over ha ha ha J/K;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

I apologize for editing my post (changed the part about America after realizing that Ray is from Canada)...

but your point still stands...it's not 1805!

For those who would like to know...originally...my previous post started like this:

"This is America in the year 2004...not Hong Kong - back in the day...different places...different circumstances..."

[YongChun]

Hi Victor,

I don't totally disagree. When I learned Wing Chun we covered everything in 7 months, that includes all forms, weapons, dummy chi sau etc. Grappling was part of the curriculum too. Many of Yip Man's students studied two years or so and then went out and fought. Then some organizations were into profit and the same curriculum was stretched out to 15 or 20 years. Then the Ultimate fighting stuff came around and everyone started to quickly modify their curriculum to cope with the perceived defects of the Wing Chun system and it's failure in the tournament scene. So WT for example in Europe is very different from what Leung Ting teaches in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, there you still have a lot of people learning traditional arts and so the training of the 1950's and 1800's still works. You don't really need much for a stairway gang fight, just old time skill. Old day fighters can handle stairway fights but they can't go to UFC or Thailand and win but I think no other modern Wing Chun fighter can either.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...AND ESPECIALLY have at least a half dozen different defenses in your arsenal against all of these same moves...

This is an important statement.

Many on this and other boards believe that when one of us (those who support the idea of studying grappling and other arts) claims that one needs to study other arts, that we are referring solely to the idea of 'adding' techniques into our arsenal. On the contrary, understanding of how other techniques are used gives us a better understanding of how our WC can be used against it. It is just a bonus that you learn how to throw a arm bar or figure 4 lock in the process of learning how to defend against one.

[Vajramusti]

AmanuJRY's last post-
not a bad formulation at all....on the learning process.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Understanding of how other techniques are used gives us a better understanding of how our WC can be used against it. It is just a bonus that you learn how to throw a arm bar or figure 4 lock in the process of learning how to defend against one." (AmanuJRY)


I don't agree totally with where you're coming from with this - but I can't argue that you're not on the right track - because you are.

Especially after carefully reading this part of your statement:

"Many on this and other boards believe that when one of us (those who support the idea of studying grappling and other arts) claims that one needs to study other arts, that we are referring solely to the idea of 'adding' techniques into our arsenal."

You're right - crosstraining is not SOLELY about adding techniques from other styles...(although it does include that)...but crosstraining also means becoming familiar with other arts' moves so as to be able to defend against them.

Absolutely correct.

I would never even consider throwing a spinning backfist or a spinning back kick at someone, for example - but I sure as hell have spent plenty of time defending against people throwing them at me.

Because there are Karate, Kickboxing, and TKD people out there who will knock you out with either of those two moves if they got half the chance!

Where I disagree is in looking at things like arm bars or double wristlocks (figure 4) as a "bonus"...but in fact...it's just a matter of degree. I take it step a further than you do - that's all.

For me...certain moves from other systems are a necessity to know - because they're so high percentage and effective.

[Matrix]

Ray,

First of all, thank you for the very detailed response to my question. I have a few comments to make in return.......


Originally posted by YongChun
What I mean is that I am sure there are thousands of people I can beat up using my Wing Chun. Yet there are also thousands who can beat me up. So if someone asks me if I can use my Wing Chun then what do I say? I would ask you what better tools do you feel you have to get the job done? The limitations that you mention are real, however, they exist equally with any art you train in. So when you say"Whether you can use your Wing Chun or not depends against who or what?" I say that Wing Chun is my best weapon, regardless of who or what I am against. I can use Wing Chun to the best of my ability and still lose, of course. That is not a limitation of WC, but is soley based on my limited ability to effectively apply it.


I know some Karate people that sparred a lot, fought in tournaments a lot but got beat up on the street. Their Karate looked very good, they were very fast and had very good looking form. But on the street they didn't get the distance and timing quite right. So they lost. Depending on the type of sparring and tournaments that you're referring to, I'm not surprised. I've seen all kinds of "sparring" and the usefulness varies widely.


So against some people I can use my skills. Against others I can't. So, are you saying that in some cases you will be beaten by a superior foe? Sure, Wing Chun does not make you invincible. It just makes you better then you were without it, IMHO. I would also say that, based on my understanding of your statements above, that this would be true whether you were using Wing Chun or some other art.


Sometimes I think some Wing Chun people are deluding themselves since they really have no advantage against a kickboxer that trains equally hard. Both have a good punch, both have a good sense of distancing and timing. Throw out Chi sau and then what is left that really gives a big advantage? Sure, we can delude ourselves. We're human. We like to do that to ourselves. ;) However, I disagree that we have no real advantage. Training harder is not the always the answer. The karate people you mentioned earlier may have trained harder than the person they fought in the street, and yet they still lost. Why? My guess would be that they trained hard at the wrong things. Less-than-effective techniques can be trained to death and they will be less-than-effective techniques executed flawlessly. :D

Of course, all things being equal the better prepared fighter should win, but it's not a guarantee..........


If it does work against someone in a few fights that may only mean the opponent was no good not that you were good or your training paid off. Wow, that sounds like a glass is half empty perspective! Sure, there may be a possiblity that this is true, but I don't think so. Besides, why harbour these negative thoughts? It worked when I needed it - case closed. Let's get to work on getting even better.


I see Wing Chun as something to maximize one's capabilities within the constraints of one's available time to train and within the constraints of the quality of instructor one can acquire and within the constraints of one's age and injuries. I agree with this statement. I would tend to focus more on the maximizing of capabilites rather than the limiting constraints. Maybe I'm just naive.


Do we all need a punch poweful enough to stop a 240 pound guy running at us with an airshield. As far as physics is concerned I don't think a 100 pound lady can ever do this. But I think she can develop the 20 pounds of force needed to break an average person's nose or to develop her thumb to take out an eye or to develop her positioning and timing such that the first strike from an attacker (depending on who again) won't take her out with the first punch. You're right. Why would I step in front of a runaway train? Based purely on the laws of physics she doesn't have a prayer against any larger male attacker. So bother to train in any self-defence system??? Because we are not limited by the laws of physics, but rather we can use them to our advantage as it is outlined to us in the concepts and principles of Wing Chun. You need to approach it differently in this case, but it's still Wing Chun. The situation will dictate what needs to be done, and I'm not willing to bet against a well trained WC lady.... :)

Bill

P.S. I don't think Mike Tyson can teach anyone much of anything....

[AmanuJRY]

The techniques I mentioned were just examples. I believe the understanding of submission holds are a valuable asset, especially if you are going to use non striking means to subdue someone (like a drunk guy, etc./someone who is not dangerous).

I believe Victor got the meaning of my statement, though. In my training, I attempt to get good at throwing many techniques that I would almost never rely on in a fight.

[YongChun]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Ray,

First of all, thank you for the very detailed response to my question. I have a few comments to make in return.......

I would ask you what better tools do you feel you have to get the job done? The limitations that you mention are real, however, they exist equally with any art you train in. So when you say"Whether you can use your Wing Chun or not depends against who or what?" I say that Wing Chun is my best weapon, regardless of who or what I am against. I can use Wing Chun to the best of my ability and still lose, of course. That is not a limitation of WC, but is soley based on my limited ability to effectively apply it.

Hi Matrix. I agree that Wing Chun is still my best weapon too. Ray


Sure, we can delude ourselves. We're human. We like to do that to ourselves. ;) However, I disagree that we have no real advantage. Training harder is not the always the answer. The karate people you mentioned earlier may have trained harder than the person they fought in the street, and yet they still lost. Why? My guess would be that they trained hard at the wrong things. Less-than-effective techniques can be trained to death and they will be less-than-effective techniques executed flawlessly. :D

Well I agree too otherwise I wouldn't be doing Wing Chun. Ray

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by old jong
Would you trust your Wing Chun punches for power or fall back on boxing techniques in fear of not hitting hard enough?...

I'd trust anything I'd worked enough to feel I'd covered bases................

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YongChun
Well I agree too otherwise I wouldn't be doing Wing Chun. Ray Ray, So we're in agreement. :cool:

Best Regards,
Bill

[Stevo]

Originally posted by old jong
Would you trust your Wing Chun punches for power or fall back on boxing techniques in fear of not hitting hard enough?...


As everyone knows, streetfighters are the best fighters in the world, even though few of them train in any martial art. It takes us hundreds or thousands of repetitions to learn a skill, but we're doing it the long way compared with the skill that's imbued by having a few fights on the street. Maybe they should have developed ancient martial arts on the street, and then they would be deadly and unbeatable.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Stevo
As everyone knows, streetfighters are the best fighters in the world, even though few of them train in any martial art. I did not know that.

I think the streetfighters' strength is the willingness to fight, without hestitation. To strike quickly and overwhelm their opponent. In fact they probably enjoy the primal nature of a fight.

Just a suggestion,
Bill

[AmanuJRY]

Stevo As everyone knows, streetfighters are the best fighters in the world, even though few of them train in any martial art. It takes us hundreds or thousands of repetitions to learn a skill, but we're doing it the long way compared with the skill that's imbued by having a few fights on the street. Maybe they should have developed ancient martial arts on the street, and then they would be deadly and unbeatable.



They did! ;)

Wing Chun was developed during civil uprising and mortal combat, and later tested in street fights. All before it ever left the borders of china.

[russellsherry]

hi matrix and guys matrix thanks for the kind words, ok in my wing chun, i had to overcome , my limations, their were many , things , i could not do ,for quite some time but footwork postion sill lim tao pivating work triain my wing chun jab , as a surpise attack . and also making people think i am smaller than i am , kind of lthings like keeping your arms in front of you so you might be in a defenece postion when you really are in offence mode also i like
it when some people think i just a poor defenless disabled person and i take advantege of that the key to your wing chun is yourself peace russellsherry

[anerlich]

As everyone knows, streetfighters are the best fighters in the world, even though few of them train in any martial art.

When I hear those famous words "as everyone knows", I brace in the expectation that an unsupportable overgeneralization is about to come down the pipe.

You REALLY need to read Marc MacYoung's "Taking it to the Streets", in which he defines what a streetfighter really is and why it is nothing to aspire to.

Best fighters in the world? I'll take British or Australian SAS commandos any day of the week.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
Best fighters in the world? I'll take British or Australian SAS commandos any day of the week.

I'll see your SAS commandos and raise you by ROK commandos.

The Rep. of Korea (ROK) special forces units do full contact NHB sparring every morning, even when out in the bush.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by anerlich
When I hear those famous words "as everyone knows", I brace in the expectation that an unsupportable overgeneralization is about to come down the pipe.

You REALLY need to read Marc MacYoung's "Taking it to the Streets", in which he defines what a streetfighter really is and why it is nothing to aspire to.

Best fighters in the world? I'll take British or Australian SAS commandos any day of the week.

Anerlich and you other guys are correct!

Maybe I should have put a smiley against my post, as it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek!

Stevo

[anerlich]

Fair enough Stevo, sorry I took it the wrong way.

[Kevin Bell]

Would i trust my Wing Chun in a street fight.Sure i would Headbutting,gouging,biting,stamping are all great examples of "nearest weapon-nearest target" as well as line ups,feints,dialogue,deception,cheats,fence work,yeup i resort to that kind of savagery pretty darn quick!!

:D :D