What have you got?

[YongChun]

In the early 1980's I met small slender Jiu Wan student who knew the Siu Lim Tao, did a little Chi sau, knew just a few movements on the dummy and a bit of footwork and that's about it. He was very very soft but hit harder than many boxers. He was able to generate very strong forces from very minimal movements for almost any technique that he knew. He could shock when already in sticking contact. This guy worked as the number two body guard for some important Tong boss so he definitely knew what he was doing and had many occasions to use it. Unfortunately he decided not to teach after him and his wife started to have young children. For him Wing Chun was just a necessity in Hong Kong and that's why he did it. He didn't do it for the art of it or for exercise. When you meet someone like that, the sights and feelings really stay with you as a model for good Wing Chun. In fighting his posture stayed very composed and vertical like Jet Li in Fist of Legend.

In the 1980's I learned all kinds of Escrima and Arnis. Lots of kinds of hitting, blocking, locking, etc. Then one year I met a guy who studied the Latosa system. He did just a couple of blocks and a few hits and didn't know all the stuff I did. However his hits were 5 times stronger than mine and he placed number two in Germany in stick fighting. So when I encountered this guy it's like what Terrence talks about that you really don't know what you are doing until you meet someone who does. In all of my repertoire I had really nothing to handle that kind of realistic guy. Fortunately he was a nice guy. In Germany he was part of a gang, where 200 of his guys would fight against 300 skinheads. That was their entertainment for the week.

After being with our club for about a year he politely asked if he could try some footsweeps. I said sure. Then he proceeded to sweep everyone in the whole club (we had lots of fighters with different backgrounds). So that was an eye opener. He said in Germany they trained three years solid to sweep people off their feet. The results definitely showed. Before that we thought we had good stances.

Sometimes you have to think about what have you really got. It really is not apparent what you have until you meet and play with the right kind of people. On the other hand if they are the wrong kind of people (too far off the deep end) then your whole martial arts career not to mention your life, might just come to a quick end or you might just end up in jail.

Then again real serious training is not for everyone. Keeping up the interest is always a challenge and an art. I know of two cases where in a single lesson each Wing Chun instructor managed to have complete class of 9 students quit all in the effort of tryting to achieve more quality. One Tai Chi master I studied under had 80 students quit in one month. However later when he revised his China teaching ways to cater to the North American tastes, he taught hundreds happy students without much if any loss of quality.

Ray

[Hendrik]

I got Not a thing. :D

[anerlich]

Yong Chun, is the point of your post that accumulation of techniques is less important than attribute development?

A sincere question, not trying to be smart ....

[AmanuJRY]

Whether it is or not, that is what it should be. :D

I've had my eyes opened to vunerabilities in my technique that I thought was strong and correct.

You never really know how good your attributes are until you have put them to the test. The better the test, the better the training.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
Yong Chun, is the point of your post that accumulation of techniques is less important than attribute development?

A sincere question, not trying to be smart ....

Yes I wasn't very clear. I was thinking of those programs where students go through learning hundreds of techniques and all kinds of Chi sau combinations or in Escrima hundreds if not thousands of techniques. When you face someone who is powerful and fast it's maily the attributes you have developed that might carry you through. Of course some people may argue that doing thousands of drills builds attributes?

[old jong]

In the early 1980's I met small slender Jiu Wan student who knew the Siu Lim Tao, did a little Chi sau, knew just a few movements on the dummy and a bit of footwork and that's about it. He was very very soft but hit harder than many boxers. He was able to generate very strong forces from very minimal movements for almost any technique that he knew. He could shock when already in sticking contact.

Very interresting post!...Now how did he develop that kind of power?...


Then again real serious training is not for everyone. Keeping up the interest is always a challenge and an art. I know of two cases where in a single lesson each Wing Chun instructor managed to have complete class of 9 students quit all in the effort of tryting to achieve more quality.

Most people in north america will not have the patience and dedication needed to train that way.They will doubt everything that is not producing instant results and has not that badass feel and attitude.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I was thinking of those programs where students go through learning hundreds of techniques and all kinds of Chi sau combinations or in Escrima hundreds if not thousands of techniques. When you face someone who is powerful and fast it's mainly the attributes you have developed that might carry you through. Of course some people may argue that doing thousands of drills builds attributes?" (YongChun)

Doing thousands of drills will never - by themselves - develop the biggest attribute of all.

So when you face someone who is powerful and fast (especially if you not a Big person yourself - such as the man you originally described)...

the one intangible ingredient (or attribute) that comes to the heart of the questions you raise...

is whether or not you are willing - at that moment - to put a hurtin' on the person in front of you.

Are you willing to hit them hard enough to drop them...if need be?

Are you willing to kick them hard - right in the balls...if need be?

To put a really powerful choke or joint lock on them?

To throw or sweep them really hard?

If not...then don't expect great results when going up against someone who is a skilled fighter/martial artist.

[Ernie]

Funny when I read your post it made me think of ‘’ complacency ‘’
People that become too comfortable in there training and there view of combative possibilities.
I see this a lot in martial arts, guys that say they have been learning for 20 years, but in reality they learned for about the first 3 and just kept repeating themselves for the next 17.
These are the guys that have all the ‘’ answers ‘’ since they stay with in the confines of their ‘’ bubble ‘’
These types have always confused me, if you were just to take one step out side you would find a whole new world of questions, and then real learning can begin.
You must relish in that which makes you uncomfortable, and then you will grow

I guess ego has a lot to do with it,

I really enjoy when I’m the most unskilled in the room, so much to learn and find out about yourself, you might enjoy the empty victories but you always remember the loses, it’s what you do with that information that makes you evolve.


I hear the term chest beating thrown around; hmmm to me I see those that are being honest share their experience, those that have none [complacent] call it chest beating.

I have yet to meet a snob that could fight =)

[AmanuJRY]

Ultimatewingchun
the one intangible ingredient (or attribute) that comes to the heart of the questions you raise...is whether or not you are willing - at that moment - to put a hurtin' on the person in front of you.

Are you willing to hit them hard enough to drop them...if need be?

Are you willing to kick them hard - right in the balls...if need be?

To put a really powerful choke or joint lock on them?

To throw or sweep them really hard?

If not...then don't expect great results when going up against someone who is a skilled fighter/martial artist.

Warrior spirit.






ErnieI have yet to meet a snob that could fight =)

Even a coffee snob??;) :D

[Ernie]

Touché ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

About your last long post.... bravo!


AmanuJRY:

My apologies for not posting on your warrior spirit thread as of yet. I just read it - and it's good!

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Ernie:

About your last long post.... bravo!


AmanuJRY:

My apologies for not posting on your warrior spirit thread as of yet. I just read it - and it's good!

No worries, I'm just being a spoiled coffee snob.:D

I just mentioned it because the subject of either strategy or spirit seems to come up on a lot of threads. They are both important aspects of MA training and real exicting topics (to me).

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
.... guys that say they have been learning for 20 years, but in reality they learned for about the first 3 and just kept repeating themselves for the next 17.......These types have always confused me, if you were just to take one step out side you would find a whole new world of questions, and then real learning can begin. Ernie,
I think it's because they become the Big Fish in their small pond, so to speak. It may be hard for them to let go, and in essence become a beginner again. To go from "knowing" to "not knowing".


Originally posted by Ernie
I really enjoy when I’m the most unskilled in the room, so much to learn and find out about yourself, you might enjoy the empty victories but you always remember the loses, it’s what you do with that information that makes you evolve. I wouldn't say that I necessarily enjoy it, but I do appreciate it. Being the most unskilled in the room is my natural place, so I know it well.

Peace,
Bill

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
No worries, I'm just being a spoiled coffee snob.:D

I just mentioned it because the subject of either strategy or spirit seems to come up on a lot of threads. They are both important aspects of MA training and real exicting topics (to me).


Strategy and spirit are important but you can’t be a ‘’ diva ‘’ with out attitude, that gets 2 snaps and a talk to the hand ha ha ha, I kill me

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
Strategy and spirit are important but you can’t be a ‘’ diva ‘’ with out attitude, that gets 2 snaps and a talk to the hand ha ha ha, I kill me



ooooohh, SNAP! You go girlfriend!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Matrix (Bill):

About this...

I think it's because they become the Big Fish in their small pond... It may be hard for them to let go, and in essence become a beginner again. To go from "knowing" to "not knowing".

You keep this up - and we're gonna have to nominate some of your posts for the "Sayings That Need To Be Framed And Hung Up On The Wall" award.

[Ernie]

Funny, just like when victor asked me why I didn’t accept ‘’authority ‘’ being the ‘’ big fish ‘’ doesn’t exist for me. It's the reason when I started to teach ‘’ sifu ‘’ was never a thought but being a coach seemed right. I see learning as a team effort, a group can make or break you, every person has something to offer, and a different perspective, when I coach I make it a point that I keep myself on the same level as every one, ask question sit and talk ask how they feel, they often help me see things I might have missed if only looking through my eyes.

I often use a term, the feeder is more important then the guy doing the drill
You must give your ego up so that the person your helping can work out the kinks

This caring more for some one else’s progress more then your own, makes it so you can train anywhere any time and with any one with nothing to prove

It allows a small fish to swim a big sea, a sea of uncertainty and adventure

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
ooooohh, SNAP! You go girlfriend!

don't forget the proper head movement , when you say that

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
You must give your ego up so that the person your helping can work out the kinks Yes, that's the stumbling block isn't it. ;) It's hard to let go sometimes when you've invested so much of yourself to get to a certain stage. How many black belts do you know who have their whole identity wrapped up in that piece of cloth?

It reminds me of a story I heard, not sure if it's true or not, but it illustrates the point. There are trappers who capture monkeys by cutting a small hole in a coconut, tying a rope to it, then inserting some food inside to attract the monkey. The important thing is that hole in the coconut is big enough for the monkey to insert its hand into the coconut to grab the food, but too small for the monkey to pull it's clenched fist out. When the trapper pulls on the rope the monkey will not let go of the little piece of food, and may hold onto the bait even tighter, in spite of the fact that they are being pulled into captivity. Because they will not let go, they cannot escape even though letting go is the simple solution.


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You keep this up - and we're gonna have to nominate some of your posts for the "Sayings That Need To Be Framed And Hung Up On The Wall" award.Victor, Thanks. :)

Bill

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Matrix
Yes, that's the stumbling block isn't it. ;) It's hard to let go sometimes when you've invested so much of yourself to get to a certain stage. How many black belts do you know who have their whole identity wrapped up in that piece of cloth?

It reminds me of a story I heard, not sure if it's true or not, but it illustrates the point. There are trappers who capture monkeys by cutting a small hole in a coconut, tying a rope to it, then inserting some food inside to attract the monkey. The important thing is that hole in the coconut is big enough for the monkey to insert its hand into the coconut to grab the food, but too small for the monkey to pull it's clenched fist out. When the trapper pulls on the rope the monkey will not let go of the little piece of food, and may hold onto the bait even tighter, in spite of the fact that they are being pulled into captivity. Because they will not let go, they cannot escape even though letting go is the simple solution.

Bill

you have the world [ freedom] in the palm of your hands , ...... if you can only learnto let it go :D

[AmanuJRY]

I've seen many who have an unconcious 'desire' to 'win'. Whether it's playing chi sau, doing drills or actually sparring. The latter being where you want to cultivate the 'winning' notion/attitude, but with the former two it works against progress.

Like Ernie said, I guess it's mostly ego.

You know, when you're playing chi sau and you slip something by because your partner opened himself up, but he doesn't recognize his mistake (you can see it in his eyes), he only registers that he got hit and now he has to hit back to make it 'even'.

Actually (and this may not be proactive), I have been hit, and noticed my partner realize it, so I give them the 'eye' and they get all nervous, waiting for the retaliation.....It doesn't happen, but it's fun to seem 'em sweat it out. I just have an onry sense of humor.

[PaulH]

What have I got? Courage!

Judy Garland (Dorothy): Lions, and tigers, and bears! Oh, my!

Bert Lahr (Cowardly Lion): Alright, I'll go in there for Dorothy. Wicked Witch or no Wicked Witch, guards or no guards, I'll tear them apart. I may not come out alive, but I'm going in there. There's only one thing I want you fellows to do.
Jack Haley (Tin Man): What's that?
Bert Lahr (Cowardly Lion): Talk me out of it.

Bert Lahr (Cowardly Lion): Courage! What makes a king out of a slave? Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave? Courage! What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist, or the dusky dusk? What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage! What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder? Courage! What makes the dawn come up like thunder? Courage! What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot? What have they got that I ain't got?
All: Courage!
Bert Lahr (Cowardly Lion): You can say that again! Huh?

[kj]

In case of interest, and relating to Paul's lions, tigers and bears ...

I thought this was an interesting article on combat anxiety management (http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles_01/sonnon_anxiety.html).

"Courage, or moral force, is not the absence of fear; rather, it is the virtue of effective anxiety management." - Scott Sonnon

Regards,
- kj

[PaulH]

Thanks, Kathy! Fascinating and very interesting article! =)

[Hendrik]

Ego,
the one who know about the ego is the ego.
The one who admit about ego is just trying to show one is better and right.
that is the true face of ego.


When it settles.
Surrender,
Burn into asshes.
Become not a thing
It will arise
for thinking to be courage still within the thinking --- a thought
for emotion to be courgage still within the emotion --- an emotion.


Mother safe her baby.
Just Safe.
No one can guarentee if the mom doesnt sacrify herself.
She might not success.
But,
Just 100% motherly love beyond thought and the thinker.


Now, how to implement that ?
The thing beyond the thoughts
The thing which is not a thing.
They call it love,
They call it compassionate,
They call it courage.
Call it whatever
Can one get there ?


When a fireman or spiderman rush to safe the kid.
what is that?
Not a thing but it is everything.

[PaulH]

Okay, how? =)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, how? =)


Ask the spiderman. :D

Dont spiderman uses Chi Sau too? at sometimes, it doesnt work and fall. So, it got nothing to do with Chi Sau. hahahaha.

May the force be with you.

[Hendrik]

when you asked " what have you got?" you have already lost your confident. you question yourself. You put it in a defense stand.

what have you got compare with what? infinity of speed? infinity of technics? infinity of different who knows what?
The mind is confused about those thoughts running .....
And no matter what you got, there is always a suprise on what you dont "GOT".


So? why not just accept all the cards you have.
and,
Try a different question " how can this xxxxxx being take down"!
Then solve the issue. just do it!
then rest in peace and sip wine with Ernie. :D


The first guy who invented PIZZA will never have tasted PiZZA before. So what does he got? PiZZA from some older guy?
Ofcorse not. he invented it remember? hahahaha.

[Vajramusti]

After the first movie Spiderman developed back problems
and needed therapy!

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
After the first movie Spiderman developed back problems
and needed therapy!

That is because he didnt have that Kundalini power. suprise. :D
But then he finished his first movie instead of worrying about dont have that kundalini power in his spine. hehehehe ;)

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

True. You can't kill that which can't be destroyed. I have met people with "killer instinct" mindset. They are scary and you cannot stop them with mere techniques and crude hand tools. Some spirits are pure and calm; other malevolent. The road one walks often are dark and full of dangers. I just hope that one sees the light at the end of the tunnel.

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

Then solve the issue. just do it!
then rest in peace and sip wine with Ernie.



no way hendrik i would rather be like you and just talk circles around it until i'm dizzy and fall over
then write a poem about falling over
then have a dream about the poem and wonder if 100 years ago some one had the same dream
and then
and then
and then
and then

see this way all talk no doing just talking about not doing

[Da_Moose]

What have you got?

I've got Sup Ming Dim (10 Bright Points)!

Oh, and I've got Jong!

[Hendrik]

Paul,

Lets hope that we all learn to value life and have the spirits that are pure, calm, peace, and prosper.

Gandhi was an example....



as for the question of WHAT HAVE YOU GOT?
after my decades in high tech field.

You dont want to ask the question of WHAT HAVE YOU GOT. Instead asking the question --- DO I KNOW HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS.

The gaol is in how you ask question and questions. Not in what have you got.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie
Then solve the issue. just do it!
then rest in peace and sip wine with Ernie.



no way hendrik i would rather be like you and just talk circles around it until i'm dizzy and fall over
then write a poem about falling over
then have a dream about the poem and wonder if 100 years ago some one had the same dream
and then
and then
and then
and then

see this way all talk no doing just talking about not doing

You sure love to fantasy who other is.
But the other is not your fantasy and never yours fantasy.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You sure love to fantasy who other is.
But the other is not your fantasy and never yours fantasy.

just learning from your example :p

[PaulH]

Just curious, Hendrik, I know some friends once got really burned when they found out that their KF is worthless after decades of learning investment. They got two options:
1. Start all over again.
2. Quit.

What sort of questions should they ask if they choose #1?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie
just learning from your example :p



The warning written in front of the old Wing Chun kuen kuit said:

Learn from me perish, reverse will alive.


One can never step the same water flow in the river twice, not even to mention those follows other's foot steps.......:(

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Just curious, Hendrik, I know some friends once got really burned when they found out that their KF is worthless after decades of learning investment. They got two options:
1. Start all over again.
2. Quit.

What sort of questions should they ask if they choose #1?



1, how to issue a destructive powerfull impact strike, rather effortlessly and always repetable?
2, Can it be done in all directions and range and control intensity?
3, can the body structure support it?
4, will any part of the body got stuck when doing it?
5 will the breathing smooth?
6, How is each strike applied in different environment and condition?
7, how to embrace other's attack and issue that strike ?
8,.....

999, how to settle the body/breathing/mind?
1000, when are you going to start your endless journey to investigate all of the above and more....... and mastering a small pices every time?

without that 1000 questions, there is no Kung Fu. :D

Kung Fu is about travelling the endless journey and collecting milelage while one is travelling. :D similar to the frequent flyer, but the different is not sleeping on top of the plane's sofa but walk with legs and sweating .....:D

Always makes use of one's old trip plane ticket. they never lost, even one might not know what happen before. but that is always usefull to give direction.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Hendrik
The warning written in front of the old Wing Chun kuen kuit said:

Learn from me perish, reverse will alive.


One can never step the same water current in the river twice, not even to mention those follows other's foot steps.......:(

ahhh oh great one thank you for showing me to the top pf bandini mountain , [ then like the current let the past flow away ]


you should heed your own advice

he who assumes to much makes an ass-of-himself

stuff that in your chakra and smoke it ha ha ha ha h a


------ you can insert your last word here , since we all know your ego is to big , to allow anyone else a last word ha ha , then you can go meditate on it ------------

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie
ahhh oh great one thank you for showing me to the top pf bandini mountain , [ then like the current let the past flow away ]


you should head your own advice

he who assumes to much makes an ass-of-himself

stuff that in your chakra and smoke it ha ha ha ha h a


------ you can insert your last word here , since we all know your ego is to big , to allow anyone else a last word ha ha , then you can go meditate on it ------------


What have you Got? A 3rd Chakra problem? :D

[Ernie]

your asssss-umeing again
i knew you couldn't resist the last word
very predictable my friend ;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie
your asssss-umeing again
i knew you couldn't resist the last word
very predictable my friend ;)

Great, you sure know how to type very well! :D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Great, you sure know how to type very well! :D

I Learn from you oh great wise ancient one, connection to the spirits of the past, we are so blessed that you take the time to share your magnificent words with us petty un worthy mortals

All hail hendrik
All hail hendrik
The immortal phoenix

Rising from its ashes to once again bring the message of great timeless words from the masters of the past


Good god!

I threw up all over my keyboard, couldn't stomach my own joke

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

. . .He was very very soft but hit harder than many boxers. He was able to generate very strong forces from very minimal movements for almost any technique that he knew. He could shock when already in sticking contact. . .
like what Terrence talks about that you really don't know what you are doing until you meet someone who does.

----------------------

anerlich wrote:

Yong Chun, is the point of your post that accumulation of techniques is less important than attribute development?

----------------------

old jong wrote:

Now how did he develop that kind of power?...

----------------------

From my perspective, you can't separate "technique" from attributes -- the punch without substantial power is not a punch, it's just sticking your arm out (which amounts to nothing). The WCK punch is the cornerstone of our method. If you don't have it developed to the point where it is a formidable weapon, everything else will fail. The very first thing I teach my students is the punch from YJKYM and then we train it until they can pass a basic test: a larger training partner holding an airshield on their chest runs at the testee, standing stationary in YJKYM, from across the room with the intent of slamming into the testee with the airshield. To pass the test they must be able to stop his partner's forward movement and knock them backward with one punch (to the airshield) while remaining stationary. Actually this is fairly simple and only demonstrates decent "structural power" (WCK's stationary power that comes from a certain body mechanic; some call it "sitting power"). So when old jong asks "how did he develop this power?" my answer is: this is basic level WCK, every novice WCK practitioner (like YongChun's guy) should be able to do it -- if you can't do it (pass my airshield test, for example), then you need to find someone that can so that you can actually begin to learn WCK. Seriously. This is actually a big problem -- so many people teaching WCK (even the big, well-known names) that have very little genuine skill.

Regards,

Terence

[old jong]

Terence.
You are describing a result of Wing Chun training ,not the training itself.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie

Good god!

I threw up all over my keyboard, couldn't stomach my own joke


You are a great guy. How is your trip?

[anerlich]

"They got two options:
1. Start all over again.
2. Quit."

Option 1 sounds no good, it would be history repeating itself.

How about:

3. Buy SBGi DVD's, go to Matt Thornton's gym in Oregon.
4. Take up BJJ.





































:cool:

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You are a great guy. How is your trip?

all went well , it's on a different thread , ;)
except i missed my connection in frisco and got stuck there for 12 hours :(

[t_niehoff]

old jong wrote:

You are describing a result of Wing Chun training ,not the training itself.

------------------------

**No, you don't get it -- WCK is the training, it is both the means and the result: WCK is a certain approach toward fighting and a means of training that approach. If someone isn't getting results, then their training is lacking, thus their WCK is lacking -- they are lacking in the fundamentals. IME many people mistakenly think, or are told by their sifu, that they need to do something for a long period of time to develop it to a decent level. And, of course, they never really do reach that level since their practice actually "reinforces" doing it in a way that doesn't produce results (they just keep doing it in a way that doesn't produce results over and over). IMO this happens because their teachers don't know what they are doing and their students blindly follow them. One should get immediate, substantial results that a person can then continue to refine. For example, if a person learns a hip throw in judo, they will be taught the mechanics so that the throw is "effortless" (maximizing leverage) -- *the mechanics are part of the throw.* The result is a product of doing it "right" and a student should be taught to do it "right" from the get go. So even a beginner should be able to do the hip throw against a much larger partner effortlessly in cooperative practice; if not, they are lacking the mechanics. This skill will be refined over time; if they are not doing it that way from the beginning, their practice will only reinforce "improper" mechanics, including reliance on muscle. The real effort comes in transferring that skill into a fighting environment.

**Similarly, the power of the punch (in YJKYM) comes from fundamental body mechanics, and the punch is not separate from those mechanics (just like the hip throw is not separate from the mechanics maximizing leverage). If a person, even a novice, has that body mechanic, their punch will have good power (enough to pass my airshield test) from the beginning; if they don't have that mechanics (and my airshield test will prove whether they do or not) it is not that they just suck or need to practice more (with the hope that the skill/power will magically appear someday) but rather they are missing a basic, core aspect of WCK upon which everything else hinges. So, like I said before, if someone can't pass my airshield test (or do a hip throw effortlessly) it means that they haven't learned the fundamental mechanics of the punch (hip throw) -- so they should find a WCK practitioner that can do actually do it to teach them.

Regards,

Terence

[AmanuJRY]

.....I got two turntables and a microphone.


:D :D :D


Just couldn't resist.:)

[anerlich]

In the same vein but going back a while:

One bourbon, one Scotch and one beer.

[AmanuJRY]

Takin' ya back even furthur.....


......Got a whole lot a love.......

:D :D :D

[PaulH]

Hendrik and Anerlich,

Your brews are quite vigorous and true to their brands! Thanks! =)

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**No, you don't get it -- WCK is the training, it is both the means and the result: WCK is a certain approach toward fighting and a means of training that approach. If someone isn't getting results, then their training is lacking, thus their WCK is lacking -- they are lacking in the fundamentals. IME many people mistakenly think, or are told by their sifu, that they need to do something for a long period of time to develop it to a decent level. And, of course, they never really do reach that level since their practice actually "reinforces" doing it in a way that doesn't produce results (they just keep doing it in a way that doesn't produce results over and over). IMO this happens because their teachers don't know what they are doing and their students blindly follow them. One should get immediate, substantial results that a person can then continue to refine. For example, if a person learns a hip throw in judo, they will be taught the mechanics so that the throw is "effortless" (maximizing leverage) -- *the mechanics are part of the throw.* The result is a product of doing it "right" and a student should be taught to do it "right" from the get go. So even a beginner should be able to do the hip throw against a much larger partner effortlessly in cooperative practice; if not, they are lacking the mechanics. This skill will be refined over time; if they are not doing it that way from the beginning, their practice will only reinforce "improper" mechanics, including reliance on muscle. The real effort comes in transferring that skill into a fighting environment.

**Similarly, the power of the punch (in YJKYM) comes from fundamental body mechanics, and the punch is not separate from those mechanics (just like the hip throw is not separate from the mechanics maximizing leverage). If a person, even a novice, has that body mechanic, their punch will have good power (enough to pass my airshield test) from the beginning; if they don't have that mechanics (and my airshield test will prove whether they do or not) it is not that they just suck or need to practice more (with the hope that the skill/power will magically appear someday) but rather they are missing a basic, core aspect of WCK upon which everything else hinges. So, like I said before, if someone can't pass my airshield test (or do a hip throw effortlessly) it means that they haven't learned the fundamental mechanics of the punch (hip throw) -- so they should find a WCK practitioner that can do actually do it to teach them.

Terence,

that was absolutely awesome!! :cool:


But as cool as the airshield test is, it will threaten some people the same way sparring "threatens" them, so they will try to discredit it by saying things like;

1) "My force is a "penetrating" force, not a pushing force." (Except instead of the word; "penetrating", they will use a corresponding Chinese term for esoteric effect.)

2) "The airshield blocks his vital points, and I would SURELY drop the guy if I hit him there without the shield protecting him."

3) "The airshield drill is meeting force with force (which MY correct wing chun never does). I would just offline and.....blah, blah, blah."


As for me, -what you wrote above has to be one of my top ten favorite posts I've read on this forum. :D

-Lawrence

[AmanuJRY]

Not to look ignorant or anything, but, what is the 'airshield' test?:confused:

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Not to look ignorant or anything, but, what is the 'airshield' test?:confused:

Justin , you look ignrant , never ha ha ha

summed up a guy rushes at you with a pad of some sort on his upper torso and you stop him with a punch

not a big deal , good body mechanics and timeing and placement

could work with just about any power based punch as long as there well based

the real kicker is when you can use that power in motion against some one in motion that is hitting you and drop him

------ back to bruce '' boards don't hit back ''

but it should be very easy for anyone that has been doing wing chun for a while basic slt structure [ faceing,elbow down, sitting nothing magical], but i wouldn't be surprised if a few people feel over ha ha

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Not to look ignorant or anything, but, what is the 'airshield' test?:confused:

It's worth re-stating in bold font....... ;)

From my perspective, you can't separate "technique" from attributes -- the punch without substantial power is not a punch, it's just sticking your arm out (which amounts to nothing). The WCK punch is the cornerstone of our method. If you don't have it developed to the point where it is a formidable weapon, everything else will fail. The very first thing I teach my students is the punch from YJKYM and then we train it until they can pass a basic test: a larger training partner holding an airshield on their chest runs at the testee, standing stationary in YJKYM, from across the room with the intent of slamming into the testee with the airshield. To pass the test they must be able to stop his partner's forward movement and knock them backward with one punch (to the airshield) while remaining stationary. Actually this is fairly simple and only demonstrates decent "structural power" (WCK's stationary power that comes from a certain body mechanic; some call it "sitting power"). So when old jong asks "how did he develop this power?" my answer is: this is basic level WCK, every novice WCK practitioner (like YongChun's guy) should be able to do it -- if you can't do it (pass my airshield test, for example), then you need to find someone that can so that you can actually begin to learn WCK. Seriously. This is actually a big problem -- so many people teaching WCK (even the big, well-known names) that have very little genuine skill.

[AmanuJRY]

This sounds like a good test, although it could easily be rigged.

i.e.- using a substantially larger opponent (shield bearer) rushing harder at you.

The image I get is a 6'6", 280 lb Linebacker running at me. Like someone once told me, pretend your opponent is a 300 pound Samoan on crack.;) :D

BTW, I guess I do look Ignorant, as the description was earlier in this thread.:(

[Ernie]

Justin,
It’s more of a trust test; trust in your punch and structure
Gary would make us do it way back in the day, but it would be first punch stops him, second punch moves him back and third punch sends him flying.

When I first tried, I was good with the first but used to wobble a bit on the others, when he did it we would end up on our butts, but after a few attempts and him pointing out the alignment, we were having fun knocking each other down. And though I’m not a tiny person the guys we were hitting were in the 6 foot 250 range, we have some big guys there and some old jocks collage football dudes

But power is relevant to how much you need, a lot of guys can take a punch and just laugh at you, so you can’t have so much of a emotional connection to the ‘’ power punch ‘’ if it works great it doesn’t there are other tools in the shed =)

[AmanuJRY]

Gotcha, I'll have to see if Lawrence wants to try. It shouldn't be hard to get Jon to be the shield bearer.:D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Gotcha, I'll have to see if Lawrence wants to try. It shouldn't be hard to get Jon to be the shield bearer.:D

Good Luck !!!

you might to give Jon thigh kick first :)

[t_niehoff]

lawrenceofidaho wrote:

But as cool as the airshield test is, it will threaten some people the same way sparring "threatens" them, so they will try to discredit it by saying things like . . .

**Thanks for your comment/praise. You are right, of course -- people will always find excuses and self-justifications for their nonperformance. I find all the "competing" theories, histories, concepts, etc. wearisome. All that talk and so very few of them have a decent punch. ;)

----------------------

AmanuJRY wrote:

Like someone once told me, pretend your opponent is a 300 pound Samoan on crack.

**Anyone that needs to "pretend" to have opponents should not be listened to.

-----------------------

Ernie -- you're correct that this is just a basic test of the punch (and structure -- the punch is just structure projected, after all), nothing more. And as I pointed out, even novices with good instructors will pass the test easily. Of course, I've met too many "Grandmaster disciples" that couldn't.

Terence

[Ernie]

Anyone that needs to "pretend" to have opponents should not be listened to.



he got that from me , train for the worse case and anthing less well be , just that -- less ;)

but i like this [[[All that talk and so very few of them have a decent punch]]]


keep $hit simple

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence:

Let's say there's no shield...and if it really was a 6'6" 280 NFL linebacker coming in full steam for the tackle...how often do you think that the proper YJKYM stance and wing chun punch is actually going to stop him?

[taltos]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
if it really was a 6'6" 280 NFL linebacker coming in full steam for the tackle...how often do you think that the proper YJKYM stance and wing chun punch is actually going to stop him?

Personally, I'd opt for the side step and get the he!! out of his way. At full charge, I think there's little my 140 pound frame would do.

-Levi

[t_niehoff]

Victor,

This is simply a test of the development of a person's punch and associated body mechanics (it's structure, stopping power, etc.) -- not necessarily fighitng application. In fact, as I indicated in my earlier post, even having passed this simple test, a lot of work will be needed to tranfer these skills to a fighting environment.

Regards,

Terence

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
Good Luck !!!

you might to give Jon thigh kick first :)


That might slow him down.....just enough.:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence:

Good answer!

[anerlich]

Like someone once told me, pretend your opponent is a 300 pound Samoan on crack.

You realise, of course, that this describes Hunter S Thompson's attorney and offsider in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"?

"as your attorney, I advise you to drive at top speed"....

[AmanuJRY]

"Have you gone completely sideways man???":D

[Da_Moose]

Judging from some of the paths this thread has in it, I'm inclined to ask one question. Looking at someof the scenarios such as '(Insert Small Individual here) being able to stop the (insert BIG GUY STAT here) running at you with XXX Technique' that are becoming the prevalant discussion it seems, have some of you forgotten what Wing Chun Modus Operandi is? It seems that it is neither efficient, direct nor, simple to train to stop "The Big Guy" with one punch or kick from your horse, whether it is just for fun, or for combat application. Even if you can get to the point of being able to do so, what does it matter? Will you be able to do it when your 40? 50? 60? 80? Probably not, so that time spent training is now wasted. Sure, it may sound impressive when teling a story to your kids/grandkids, but if you can't still do it, why did you train for it? Also, the 'train it for fun' point aside, keep in mind that how we train is most often how we recat as well.

I'd rather spend more time training how to deal with someone like "The Big Guy" intelligently, not like a deer stuck in headlights that is about to be hit by a car/train.

The original question of the thread was "What have you got?"
Now I'd have to answer with Common Sense!

I also prefer to train so that my time is not spent developing 'perishable' skills/attributes such as strength and speed. I'd rather develop skills that will stay with me as I get older so I'm freed up for learning other things when I am older and not having to relearn how to defend my self to accommodate for old age.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
The original question of the thread was "What have you got?"
Now I'd have to answer with Common Sense! Game, Set and Match to Da_Moose.

[sihing]

Da_Moose,
Finally a partner in crime...lol. I agree with you whole heartedly. Skill attributes last much longer than physical attributes, and IMO are what seperates WC from all other MA.

Sihing

[t_niehoff]

D_Moose, sihing, Matrix,

The power of the WCK punch comes from body-mechanics. But how do we know that these mechanics are working for us? By testing them -- the airshield test is simply that, a test to see if your punch (body)mechanics are working by seeing how "strong" your punch is (the power of the punch coming as it does from body mechanics). That's all. Just like I said about learning the mechanics of the hip throw -- if they are "correct", you'll be able to throw a much larger person. If the mechanics aren't there, you will need to rely on brute strength and so will only be able to throw a similar-sized or smaller person. The mechanics of the punch and the hip-throw do not depend on age or size or muscular strength. So, do you have these mechanics or not? If you do, you can demonstrate them via the airshield test. Producing results is a simple matter when you have the goods.

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
But how do we know that these mechanics are working for us? By testing them -- the airshield test is simply that, a test to see if your punch (body)mechanics are working by seeing how "strong" your punch is (the power of the punch coming as it does from body mechanics). That's all. Terence, Please don't get me wrong. As a test I like the idea. It's a very dynamic exercise that will both test power and give you some good feedback on the effectiveness of your punch. It should also provide you with a mental edge when you know your strikes have been tested. I like that aspect alot.

However, in application I would move, ever so slightly, out of the way of a charging bull and strike at the appropriate time.

Bill

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by Matrix
Terence, Please don't get me wrong. As a test I like the idea. It's a very dynamic exercise that will both test power and give you some good feedback on the effectiveness of your punch. It should also provide you with a mental edge when you know your strikes have been tested. I like that aspect alot.

However, in application I would move, ever so slightly, out of the way of a charging bull and strike at the appropriate time.

Bill

Bill,

very few of us would try holding ground and punching a large dude charging in. -Even if you knew you might be able to drop the guy with the power in your punch, you could get zapped at the same time too. :(


A slight offline (like you described) makes perfect sense because you'll be much safer while you counter, -but if your counter punch doesn't have much steam on it, the guy is going to quickly adjust and take more shots at you (e.g. Kimbo video / "What would you do" thread).


I once offlined and hit a guy (on the jaw) during a sparring match when I was a skinny (130 lbs) 17 year old with a little less than two years of training experience. I launched a punch that looked pretty (just like in my form), but because I had no connection to the ground, I literally knocked myself off balance and fell backward on to the floor. My opponent (one of my sihings with a decent chin) quickly recovered, pounced on me and finished me off.......


Using the airshield like Terence described is about TEACHING your body to do something (perform a skill) that can be carried with you even into a frail old age, -not simply conditioning your body to be stronger while you are young.


In my opinion, to say that the airshield drill is useless because it's not how you would fight is not so different from saying that chi-sau is useless because no fight will ever begin from the poon-sau / "rolling arms" positions.......Of course it's not fighting, but (hopefully) you can take something useful from it. :)

-Lawrence

[YongChun]

The airshield test is OK nothing wrong with it. It's just people's expectations are unclear. What are the parameters which measure success? The test is one of many tests and maybe is on the crude variety. Off balancing can be very subtle with no apparent visible motion involved. These subtle things can best be tested in a Chi sau situation.

If it's true then what the Daito Ryu people do is very amazing looking. Just small twitches send the guys flying no matter what their size. I haven't felt if myself though so it's hard to tell if the video demos are for real. However there are a lot of amazing things that can be done when one really understands body mechanics.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
A slight offline (like you described) makes perfect sense because you'll be much safer while you counter, -but if your counter punch doesn't have much steam on it, the guy is going to quickly adjust and take more shots at you.
Lawrence,
I agree. It's all about the steam. :)


In my opinion, to say that the airshield drill is useless because ...... I don't think I said that. A drill is a drill. Useful in perfecting certain aspects of your skill set. I like 'em.

I like Da_Moose's "common" sense reply. The odd thing about common sense, is that it's not that common.

Bill

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by Matrix
Lawrence,
I don't think I said that. A drill is a drill. Useful in perfecting certain aspects of your skill set. I like 'em.


Bill,

sorry if that seemed directed at you, -it wasn't.......

I just don't understand why anyone would not want to perform a drill that would increase their punching power by helping them use their body mechanics in a smarter way with no adverse "side effects" (leaving you in a vulnerable position, tensing you up, preventing effective follow-ups, etc.) :confused:

-Lawrence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
sorry if that seemed directed at you, -it wasn't......
Lawrence,
No problem. I just wanted to be sure that I was being clear on my position. Just in case. ;)

Bill