Anti-Grappling, anyone practice it?

[JiuKaiMan]

Anyone practice any type of Wing Chun anti-grappling?
Let's talk techniques.
What is a good WC technique for stopping a takedown like a double-leg?
What is a method for maintaining close-hand range and keeping your opponent for gettng the clinch?
What do you do to back away from the clinching range if he gets it and get back into short-hand range?

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[OdderMensch]

We have regular classes in WC ground fighting, and have a "clinch drill" where we learn/practice defeating someone "clinching" us.

For paticular tech please see my Sifu's "Anti-Grapler Tapes"
http://www.authentickungfu.com/wctapes/index.html

go to the bottom of the page.

some quotes from the series :

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This is not a magic bullet. If you do not know chi sau and chi gerk, if you do not have good ma kung and the ability to root and generate power from the ground, then these techs will be of little use to you. [/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> offten the first thing someone will do on the street is grab you and hit you.[/quote]

[Watchman]

>>>Anyone practice any type of Wing Chun anti-grappling?<<<

I do...a lot.

Things have gotten insanely busy here today, so I'll post on the three points you asked about later tonight after I'm done working my way through my assassination list...er, I mean "client contact list". :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[martialdoulos]

Well, I am currently a JKD man, using Jujitsu as my secondary. I do this now as a convert, since I started out as a Jujitsu man.

To put it simply, there is no way to repel a grappler, unless you know grappling to some extent yourself. I say this in general of course -- it is possible to luck out and land that perfect blow, but the mixed martial arts competitions have shown this to be a minority occurence -- hardly reliable.

I will cite the Gracies for a moment: the only striking fighters that have been worth thier salt against them have been those who have also trained in grappling to a great extent. They were not grapplers per se, but they knew the feel of it, the look of it, and the tactics of it. Such people, even though not grapplers, could still easily put out your average TKD guy with a grappling takedown adn finish. They were not Gracie caliber grapplers, but it gave them the ability to stay on their feet (longer than otherwise, anyway).

I am not espousing that you train with some grappling techniques -- I'll let the tale of the tape do that. Check out the history on it from some of the full contact events -- those with legit technical fighters, and not the back room brawlers.

[JiuKaiMan]

Martialdoulos,
Are you saying, that I must be fairly familiar with a certain range of combat to defeat someone who utilizes it?
Say I don't like to kick. I have short muscular legs and I like to strike and grapple. Say I want to fight a kicker who is very, very good. Must I study kicking to beat him?
Now say I am a grappler who wants to beat a good boxer, but I don't have any boxing experience. Must I study boxing to beat him?

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[NafAnal]

No, but your chances are greatly improved if you study your opponent's game. You are more likely to know his movements and are less likely to be caught by unfamiliar tactics. It helps a lot if you know your opponent's mettods...

[Super-Fist]

JiuKaiMan,
You brought up a very interesting question. Do I have to study a certain stlye just to be able to handle someone who studies that style? Personally, I don't think so. But at the same time I think I understand what martialdoulos is getting at. Martialdoulos, why do think that it is necessary to study a style in order to defeat someone that practices it?

Thanks.

[Sharky]

Back to the original question - i can see it being VERY difficult to not break the wing chun rules when someone goes in for a takedown - ie going back wards, or bending over and 'breaking' your structure. Would be interesting to hear any responces.

Thanks

Edd

My anus is superior™

[tnwingtsun]

"To put it simply, there is no way to repel a grappler, unless you know grappling to some extent yourself."

Sounds you have little or no grasp of Chi Sao.

[Super-Fist]

tnwingtsun,
What does chi sao have to do with handling a grappler?

[unclaimed effort]

By what you are saying, are you going to plan to learn every single martial art in the world to be able to figure out what everybody tends to rely on in a fight?

[tnwingtsun]

If you really don't know then you need to train to the point where you do,its there.

[Watchman]

>>>What is a good WC technique for stopping a takedown like a double-leg?<<<

The first thing to understand is that a good takedown artist isn't going to try and double leg you rushing from across the room - he's going to set up the shoot with strikes or from the clinch. Once he feels like he's got a direct path to your lower body he'll quickly change levels and take the shot.

There is one of the first keys - taking control of the fight enough that he can't change levels, or if he does he's too far away for the shot to have much power and opening a gap you can fill with your hands.

Let's say he's done a good job of leading your hands forward, changed levels, and is in full shoot -- what you don't want to do is try and stop him with strikes. Why? Because landing a power hit (something hard enough to end the shot) on someone coming fast at your legs underneath your arms is an extremely high-percentage move (meaning it's unlikely, but not impossible).

The reason I say this is because of the mechanics involved in the whole operation. You know that kinetic power is derived from the momentum created by accelerating an object of mass. Because a good shot comes from a complete full-body commitment, you'll understand that your punch is trying to stop the shooter's entire body mass. That's why, when they find the path, most grapplers can cut right through counter-punching attempts when shooting.

That's why I don't wager on that one "perfect" punch that will drop someone coming in like that.

Here's another thing -- from my own personal observations I think that a lot of the power and effectiveness in a move like the double leg comes from a good portion of the victim's own involuntary reactions to it. When someone shoots in on you like that there is often an involuntary reaction to stand up and move away from the attack. Because you are "flinching up and away" you are actually doing a great deal of the work on getting your back slammed onto the ground.

[One a side note: the reverse side of this, in a stand up "striking" environment, is seen when you are throwing blows at someone who hasn't undergone serious conditioning training. A poorly conditioned fighter will involuntarily pull his head back and his shoulders up in response to a committed, powerful punch. This reaction aids the Wing Chun fighter who knows how to pressure forward with solid footwork and follow up his strikes (chain punching).]

This is where a wrestler's sprawl comes in. They use that natural reaction to throw their hips backward, but instead of "lifting" they sink their weight into the shooter -- using their commited body mass in a superior ("top") position to smother the power of the shot, which of course works great.

The thing is, there is no "wrestler's sprawl" in Wing Chun. So, what do you do? One answer is to go "sprawl shopping" at your local wrestling club to pick up the defense, or maybe look deeper into your Wing Chun for something that may work just as well...

OK, from a Wing Chun standpoint, you most definitely can't move back and, for argument's sake, you don't have the option of sprawling.

Now, here's the interactive portion of my post: stand in your neutral stance (Ding Ma) -- pretending someone was standing at your bridge, changed levels, and is now in full shoot -- then quickly and ballistically shift your hips and center of gravity to one leg (it doesn't matter which leg if he's coming in straight for a double leg, but it's more effective if you're good enough with your footwork to follow his body movement and shift so you're facing whichever side he has decided to place his head).

Note: the shooter WILL grab your legs - there just ain't no gettin' around that - BUT, the hip shift will redirect the force of the shot and spin him a little bit (just like how a bullfighter twists out of the way of a charging bull).

Now of course, just shifting your hips over to one leg will nullify - to a certain degree - the immediate danger of the double leg, if he's worth his salt in takedowns he'll just change up to a single leg and dump you anyway.

Therefore, once you shift your hips, you immediately drop your weighted knee (almost like a rapid squatting motion) while simultaneously using a Pak Sau (also called Gum Sau in this instance, which means "Pinning Hand") motion with your arm to push the shooter's body weight toward the ground.

What you have just done is called Cho Jum Ma, or "Shifted Sinking Stance".

BUT DON'T STOP THERE!

Once you've shifted, sunk, and propelled the shooter's body to the ground you have to pressure forward with the weighted knee into the shooter's body to keep him from dropping his hands to your ankles, sucking his knees up, and single-legging you down.

When you pressure your weighted knee forward into his body you will find yourself pinning the shooter to the ground with your knee. That's the magic of them there 100/0 "one-legged" stances.

From there it's time to administer a grevious and severe @ss whoopin' on the offending shooter.

BTW, all the body mechanics for this move are found in Chum Kiu.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Watchman]

My Sigung in action:

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=7572066&w=188&h=288>

You'll instantly recognize that move from Chum Kiu. Now just imagine immediately sinking the weighted leg (keeping your back straight) while pressing down with the Pak Sau and you've got Cho Jum Ma w/ Gum Sau. :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Stranger]

Watchman,

I like that technique. Reading your posts on WC/VT/WT really interests me in the style. I just read your profile. I thought you were a cop. You do live in Utah, right?

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Super-Fist]

tnwingtsun,
It's there? What's there? What is it specifically that is in chi sao that is going to enable you to defend against a grappler. You seem to know. So, I'm asking you to tell me. Isn't that what this forum is about, sharing ideas?

Thanks.

[Watchman]

No, I'm not a cop -- I've just hung around enough of them that I've developed that distinctive "cop talk" (and I get mistaken for an off duty police officer when I'm wandering around in public sometimes -- I think it's the arrogant stride and constant scoul on my face :D ).

To answer your other question -- I live in the southwestern tip of Utah about 90 minutes from Las Vegas, Nevada.

[Watchman]

I don't know where in VA you're located, but I have a kung fu brother that runs a school in Newport News.

If you'd like to drop by his school go ahead and email me and I'll give you his contact info.

[BeiKongHui]

Watchman's way sounds awesome and more Wing Chun than what I do but I don't know if I have the ability to pull it off. I'm slow & stupid so I have to keep it simple. If a guy drops in for a single or double leg I sprawl. I keep my hips curled forward just like in Yeung Ma and try to sink my weight in hopes of flattening them. Sometimes I like to get them in a front headlock, lodge their head in my stomach, pull my arms upwards and with hips curled forward (like in YJKYM) I move towards them thus choking them out.
Against a wild tackle I like to control the head and use a shifting stance/footwork to use their momentum to throw them I also use a hand position similar to the "piercing hands" in Chum Kiu and as they rush I lean in to meet them but stop them by allowing them to collide with my fore arms which I place against the side of the neck and the shoulder from here you can knee or go into a crucifix.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[El_CLap]

Wing Chun is about simplicity. To be honest, the simplest way that I have seen is to sprawl. This is a grappling move, but seems pretty efficient.

[JiuKaiMan]

That is a great explanation of defending against a grappler shooting in.
I was a state wrestler in Idaho over 13 years ago, and so I use some of my own ideas about grappling to train my students to defend against it.
It sounds like you train your WC very seriously.

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[martialdoulos]

Ok, some clarification is in order. I should say that the "sprawl" talked about by Watchman is entirely correct, and works (better than anything else perhaps).

Now, I do not say that to beat a Crane man you have to know crane, to beat a thai man you have to know thai, etc, etc. However, I am strenuously making the point here that there are two fundamental types of techniques to martial arts (empty hand), and those are techniques of grappling and techniques of striking. It is a real difficulty to find any logical division of techniques, since such divisions seemingly break up the totality of martial arts, BUT, I think that this is a fair one to make for the sake of argument.

At any rate, if you are a martial artist in ANY striking art, and you do not know grappling, you will be at a distinct disadvantage. Likewise, if you are a grappler (traditional jujitsu, judo, etc) that does not know striking, you are also vulnerable.

The two bodies of techniques here are entirely different -- they operate from fundamentally different body alignments, different "feels", different tactics, etc. The tactics of a wrestler and a jujitsu grappler WHEN APPROACHING A STRIKER in a match are not all that different.

By learning to grapple, you can get inside the heads of grapplers. You come to understand what they want to do, how they want to do it, AND where they DO NOT want to end up -- and this is stuff that you can only hypothesize about if you are on the "outside" as a grappling-ignorant striker.

Specifically, it is easily demonstratable that there are only two ways to deal with an oncoming grappler attack (assuming your basic clinch approach).
1. land an awesome, perfect stopping blow
2. Use some form of pushing, grabbing, pulling, etc type of movement, either with or without striking

Now, number one is unlikely to happen. Number two is typically what is done. If you'll notice though, number 2 has all "grappling" type movements in it -- pushing, pulling, grabbing, etc. Some sort of "holding" typically MUST be done to repel a grappler. Hitting ALONE simply has been shown to not work.

Now, if you have to use a holding technique of some sort, you have ALREADY stepped into the domain of the grappler, and typically, they are far better at it.

We can hypothesize about using chi sao/trapping techniques on them, but this will not work if you simply do not understand the mechanics of the grappler's approach. It occurs often BELOW the waist, which offers completely different alignments than are encountered in chisao/trapping drills.

Fundamentally, it is FUNDAMENTALLY a completely different field.

You mentioned the kickers before. Again, I will say that in order to defend against a kicker, you better know how they work. You don't have to BE a kicker, but you do need to have studied (that is, practiced) kicking if you want to be consistent in your victories over them. NEVERTHELESS, the principles of a kicking attack still share many many commonalities with striking hand attacks that grappling does not share. Kicking is still striking. Angles are still similar, approach is still the same, power generation is similar. HOWEVER, my point is that grappling is an entirely different animal. Power generation is different, attack tactics are totally changed, defensive tactics are totally different, etc, etc.

In essence, however, I will maintain that if you want consistent victories over people who use different ranges of fighting (and I do not really agree with the way that ranges are typically looked at), then yes, you need to be fairly familiar. THAT is the only way that you can keep the fight in the "range" that you want it to be in.

I will cite as a research proven example the mixed martial arts competitions such as VALE TUDO. The simple truth is that there simply are no consistent winners that are one sided fighters -- they all know the full gamut if they are at the top. Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not saying that they FIGHT WITH ALL THE "RANGES", but I AM saying that they are entirely familiar with all the ranges -- this allows them to keep the fight where they are strongest.

BUT, I am speaking of the "modes" of fighting -- not "styles". Karate and TKD men fight from the same Mode, even though they claim different styles. Jujitsu men and Sambo men also fight from the same Mode. You have to be trained in all the major modes.

mbarsotti@ara-sa.com

[rednyellow]

If someone comes in for a grappling take down, their weight will be forward over their center of gravity and they will be committed to their forward momentum. As the grappling attacker has his body lower for more stability, the best answer I've found to anti grappling is found in Chi Gurk. A simple straight kick or knee to the sternum or face is sufficiently effective to diffuse the attackers incoming momentum and most typically will render them unconcious. This is not a 'for competition' technique and generally not taught in a lot of schools.

Going backwards to move out of the way of a grappling attack should you be caught off guard does not viloate the basic tenets of Wing Chun philosophy. It would be considered a yielding attack with the intention of making a new angle of attack to move forward with. Going backwards is not the ideal, but it can be utilized effectively when combined properly with forward intention

[JiuKaiMan]

Martialdoulos,
Remember when Randy Cotour first entered into the UFC?
I remember watching his first few fights and although a wrestler, he crosstrained heavily in boxing and it was pretty amazing what he could do from the clinch with his boxing.
That is what I am trying to train with my Wing Chun and teach my students.
I want them to have the grappling knowledge to keep control in the clinch range and make openings for some killer bombs....just like Randy seemed to be able to do.
What do you think of that strategy?

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[dzu]

Back when the UFC craze was first getting started, I had the fortune to work out with a group of guys at the university gym. Two of them were Mixed Martial Artists, combining grappling (BJJ, Sambo, Pancrase Shootfighting, etc.) and striking (Kyoshinkai, Goju Ryu). We had similar experience levels at the time. It was a friendly exchange and although none of us were experts, I was able to get some work both standing up and laying down using my WC against ground grappling.

Here are some things that I learned.

1) The shoot, single leg, and double leg takedowns are actually attacks on your center of gravity and base. Like all attacks, they have a point in which the power is greatest and are dictated by timing and positioning just like a punch or kick.

2) An effective shoot (from my perspective at the receiving end) requires that the grappler be able to drive his shoulder forward (and sometimes upwards)to displace your center (i.e. your pelvis and hips) combined with a grabbing an lifitng of your leg(s). This drive is generated by the explosiveness in his legs. If he shoots from too far, his momentum is spent by the time he makes contact with you and cannot drive you off your base. If he shoots too high, it becomes a clinch and there is more danger that his target can fight back. The closer and better contact he can get, the more effect he has upon your center. By grabbing your legs, he has broken your base at one point. He breaks your base at a second point by driving at your hips and pelvis with his shoulder. Some shoots can go at the knees, and others at the ankles. The most effective one from an uprooting standpoint that I have felt is the one that attacks both the legs and the pelvis.

3) The sprawl works to remove the legs and pelvis out of the path of danger. Not only does it remove the targets, but it changes the grapplers momentum from forward to down when you drop your weight on him. Unfortunately for strikers, it also removes your connection to the ground so power is lessened.

4) Analyzing the power cycle of the shoot, you can see that, like any attack, it has an optimum range and distance that it can cover. Therefore, the best way to counter it from a striking perspective is to attack before it has built up momentum, change the range so that the momentum has lessened when you finally attack, or redirect the momentum somehow so that you don't take all of it.

From a WC perspective, some things that worked for me included:

A) stepping into the shoot and hitting him before he was expecting contact and before he built up a lot of momentum. This stuns his mind as well as catches him offguard. It is important to remember that he is attacking your lower gate so rather than punching down, drop your horse to bring you two to the same level (pole training anyone?). This negates his attack on your pelvis by moving it lower than he originally estimated. This requires good timing, but if you mess up, be prepared to fight from a clinch. Maintain good elbow position and keep your arms in front of you. This is where a good root is essential or he will knock you down regardless. Don't be fixated on the static position and use your sensitivity to feel his balance and where he wants to go.

B) Triangle step to change the angle. All his estimations before he shoots have suddenly changed when you triangle step. Judge the distance and timing. The first step can be into him or to the side. Both methods work but use a different timing and positioning. Stepping into him is intercepting by changing the line first. Stepping to the side is drawing him out first so that the momentum has lessened then follow through with the second step into him when he is weaker. If you're good, you can step in with po pai jeung (butterfly palms) or huen ma to throw him. Or you can bridge and attack whatever targets are open.

C) Make a bridge somehow to control his balance. Available targets include his outstretched arms, his head, his hair, his ears, etc. Anything to control his balance. If you can control his head you can control the direction he is going. Use your judgement and your footwork to find the best position. I can say that the the worst place to be is right in front of him. Whatever you do, change the line somehow. If you intercept, you are shortening the line. If you side step you are making the line longer or changing it altogether. If you stay still, you will get taken down.

Remember that you are fighting a 3 dimensional game, including up and down. If you need to sink your horse to root better, sink your horse. Just done be fixated in a low deep horse, because he can drop and do a single leg takedown from the clinch just as easily. This is where yor chi sau skills, root, body structure, and sensitivity come into play.

One last important point that I found is that kicking is seldom very effective unless you have superior timing or are lucky. Not only does it give you only 1 leg to stand on, but you are stationary. Also, it provides him an excellent path to shoot as you retract your leg if you mistime it or fall for a feint. The only time I saw a kick or knee work was when we were using headgear and the grappler had obstructed vision and couldn't see very well. My TKD friend accidently kneed him in the head as he came in. I say accidental because he was trying to do another kick. Once he took the headgear off, he was able to take our TKD friend down constantly. He would take some of the kick on his arms or smother it first while protecting his head to the side.

Hope this helps. Again I'm not an expert but this is what I have been through to some extent. I'd say my success ratio was about 50/50 while I was experimenting. When we did go to the ground, we continued sparring, him using his ground grappling and me using WC and what little I knew from a 10 week course in BJJ.


regards,

Dzu

[Sharky]

Easier said than done. Grapplers aren't gonna charge in from 8 feet away like rugby/football players. They do it as part of a combo.

My anus is superior™