The definition of Southern Shao Lin Kiu Sau

[Hendrik]

According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge.

The method of using the forearem for attack and defense is called kiu faat or bridge method.


Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

There are 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge.........


so above is what people are using in 1850's era and continous on......

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hendrik
According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge.

The method of using the forearem for attack and defense is called kiu faat or bridge method.


Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

There are 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge......... Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless.

Perhaps that is where you meant to add in information; you know, where you put the "etc..." 's. Personally, I don't know what is supposed to be the information behind "etc."

Lin Siu Daai Da is a saying also used in HFYWCK. I have seen it focused upon within HFY Jong Sau and Sei Muhn training, but so far it has not been mentioned within Kiu Sau training.

Can you share what other systems utilize this phrase as well?

Originally posted by Hendrik
so above is what people are using in 1850's era and continous on...... That's interesting to know that if this phrase is what has been used since the 1600's, that it is still around in the 1850's.

However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion?

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik sez:

Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
That could perhaps separate common CLF/califo motions from WC/VT I would think. Different degrees at least.

[Hendrik]

I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. ------

I dont define them. the shao lin did.
If you dont accept what was defined by the shao lin.
How much is needed to define what is a Kiu Sau and Kiu faat, perhaps you can share?


what is your consice definition of Shaolin kiu sau? and where do you got it? If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion or what I post up there?






To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless. -------


theories? principles? clear context? empty discussion? meaning less?
the shao lin definition is very clear and pragmatic for me. It said what it is about.

May be you have a different definition which is not empty for you so please share.






That's interesting to know that if this phrase is what has been used since the 1600's, that it is still around in the 1850's. -----


From white crane of Fujian one can traces lots of stuffs down to 1650's.




However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion? ---------



Every wave of Localization Evolution has a signature of the past localization evolution.

Kio (fujianese) or Kiu is an old term and very common. One can go back or forth from 1850 to trace it. White Crane of Fujian has very solid record down to mid 1650.

so what is Kio Chiu or kiu Sau's definition in the past and present?
and how its definition localized Evolved. That is very interesting to see.




Lin Siu Daai Da is a saying also used in HFYWCK. I have seen it focused upon within HFY Jong Sau and Sei Muhn training, but so far it has not been mentioned within Kiu Sau training.

Can you share what other systems utilize this phrase as well?------


The "Lin Siu Dai Da implement with Kiu", Wing Chun people such as in YKS or YM or KooLoo or Cho family had used it so much in Chi Sau and everywhere that it becomes a second nature. That is a part of the characteristics of Wing Chun Kuen.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik sez:

Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
That could perhaps separate common CLF/califo motions from WC/VT I would think. Different degrees at least.


Yup, Long Kiu method was generally known as good for attacking. Short Kiu method was generally known as good for defence counter.

Thus, that exist the art such as Hung Gar or Choy Li fut which is called Ch'eong Kiu Dai Ma or long bridge Wide horse stance.


I dont think one needs to be a rocket scientist to learn what is what about the Shao Lin kiu sau....

I was/am also a grand student of Ven. Sek Ko Sam.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/info-kungfu-supply/shigaocan/china.htm

so, I have learn a little about Shao Lin too.


Now, after the basic foundametal definition being cleared. The next is the power generation enginee. Because it directly influence the operation of Kiu Sau.

As I mention on the other post. The Hung Gar's C'uun Kiu or inch bridge is not the same with Wing Chun's Biu Jee even both look finger strike. Hung Gar has 12 kiu sau faat and that is Hung Gar's definately not Wing Chun. this is because Hungar is a Long Bridge Wide stance style in general. Wing Chun is Short Bridge narrow stance style in general.

just some thought.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Savi
Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless.


Savi,

You are correct!

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hendrik
I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. ------

I dont define them. the shao lin did.I didn't say that it was "Your" definition. I responded with "I don't really think you provided"... Already starting to take my posts personally?
Originally posted by Hendrik
If you dont accept what was defined by the shao lin.
How much is needed to define what is a Kiu Sau and Kiu faat, perhaps you can share? It is not a matter of me accepting what is defined by Shaolin. It is a matter of understanding the basic nature of all things. Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well. To define Kiu Sau as simply one thing, and trying to persuade others to believe that a blanket statement is sufficient for all Southern Shaolin systems is a fallacy.

I'll give you an example. HFYWCK has at least 5 different categories of Kiu Sau: Fau Kiu Kiu Sau, Faat Sau Kiu Sau, Deui Ying Kiu Sau, Bong Laap Kiu Sau and Kwan Sau Kiu Sau. Each are a Kiu Sau no doubt, but they are not all the same. Therefore, one definition for all types of Kiu Sau is not even a reality.

Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are? The simple answer is: NO. The complex answer is: HELL NO. ;) Not even possible.
Originally posted by Hendrik
what is your consice definition of Shaolin kiu sau? and where do you got it? If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion or what I post up there? For what it's worth, Kiu Sau is what it is to anybody who wants to define it. I won't make that mistake because it is not about a definition. That is far too superficial to say "Kiu Sau is this or that" To have a conversation about Kiu Sau, there must be an understanding of the context surrounding Kiu Sau. Grappling? Recovering horse? Searching the bridge?

Your appeal to authority by saying "If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion" is meaningless. Where exactly is "etc." Hendrik? Have you been there? And pretty much what you are saying is that a "place" is an authority? Wrong focus.

Originally posted by Hendrik
theories? principles? clear context? empty discussion? meaning less?
the shao lin definition is very clear and pragmatic for me. It said what it is about.

May be you have a different definition which is not empty for you so please share.So again then, please share EXACTLY what you have recognized to be the definition of Kiu Sau.
"According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge." If this is the definition you are providing, then either you have made a huge leap in your kung fu, or you simply do not understand Kiu Sau.

For me, Kiu Sau is defined by the Space Time and Energy of the given moment. If it is not needed, there is no Kiu Sau. What is the context? Ultimately, what is the *principle* behind Kiu Sau? Based on what you have written so far, you and I are far from that level of discussion. Heck, even I am far from understanding the principle of Kiu Sau. I do, however, have a good familiarity of the concepts and theories behind Kiu Sau. At this level of discussion and experience, you and I can argue all we want. ;)

Originally posted by Hendrik
From white crane of Fujian one can traces lots of stuffs down to 1650's. So your point is that White Crane of Fujian is the ultimate root of Kiu Sau? Is that your point? That you have something and I don't? Keep in mind this conversation should be a discussion about Kiu Sau - not about what you have and I dont - and not about you vs me.

Originally posted by Hendrik
However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion? ---------



Every wave of Localization Evolution has a signature of the past localization evolution. You still didn't answer my question. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Hendrik
The "Lin Siu Dai Da implement with Kiu", Wing Chun people such as in YKS or YM or KooLoo or Cho family had used it so much in Chi Sau and everywhere that it becomes a second nature. That is a part of the characteristics of Wing Chun Kuen. Really? Then, instead of focusing on the apparent fact that Kiu Sau utilizes Lin Siu Dai Da, fill us in on HOW and WHY it is implemented into Kiu Sau. What is the focus for LSDD in Kiu Sau? That would bring more meaning into the discussion.

The bottom line Hendrik, if you have not experienced Kiu Sau from a good number of the systems from Southern Shaolin to truly understand Kiu Sau, your "provided" defintion will not do anybody or anything involved, justice. Certainly going by word of mouth or the written word will only cut yourself short from the truth we all seek, IMO.

[anerlich]

I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau.

I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu.

{sigh}

PLEASE PLEASE Let's not let this thread degenerate into nonrelevent statements and attackes, expecially on parties not present to defend themselves.

I think this thread could go somewhere if we just leave out grudges.

-Levi

[Savi]

Literal translations (ie. bridge hand) and general details (forearm usage) about Kiu Sau give general understanding about surface-level knowledge. It is too vague to the point where everyone from every style around the world can say they use it in their own way. This can very well be true based on the literal translation and general detail provided so far.

From my HFY Kiu Sau experience, developing Kiu Sau skill allows the practitioner the ability of slowing down the opponent while maintaining our own structure, influenced by our basis on our structural guidelines (WC Formula).

The whole idea is to be able to protect our centerline and position just by using the Kiu Sau. When the Kiu Sau is properly developed, it becomes very clear when it is necessary to move your centerline or not. Simply doing a bracing motion "just because" is seen as excessive use of resources from an efficiency perspective.

Shaolin traits...
Kiu Sau itself is a reflection of the Shaolin nature of Fuhk, which is to subdue and control agression. This one characteristic of subduing the attacker first involves slowing them down initially through bridge control and manipulation; second, by capitalizing and reinforcing said control via kahm na (grappling applications). This nature of subduing was very much a part of the Shaolin monk's Buddhist perspective, and is actually discussed in MKF on page 25 beginning in the Chi Sim section. If you can read German, you should also buy GM Hoffman's book: Weng Chun Kuen, the soft power of Shaolin. Last I recall, an english version is in the works.

The alternative to kahm na/chin na is obviously attacking with strikes and traps; a common theme in Wing Chun.

Ultimately, Kiu Sau is not a technique at all, and is certainly not a buzzword. Kiu Sau represents many of the physical manifestations of the natures required to protect one's personal harmony. In Chi Sim Weng Chun, there are 18 ways to express the natures of Kiu Sau. Other Southern Shaolin systems have their own way too.

Those other systems (from Fujian) who have Kiu Sau intrinsic to them, aside from Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sim Weng Chun are Chu Ga Tong Long (Preying Mantis), Ng Jou Kuen (Five Ancestor Fist), Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Lung Ying Kuen (Dragon Fist), and yes... Bai He (White Crane). There are probably more, but these are the ones I know of.

Kiu Sau is not exclusive to Wing Chun (even though some do not identify with Kiu Sau for the most part), yet on the other hand we have to recognize that Kiu Sau is a HUGE part of the "Shaolin Connection" and is SO much more than a mere "bridge hand" using the middle of the forearm. It has very strong prominence in HFY and Chi Sim, and exists in some form or another in the Red Boat Era Wing Chun; ie. Heaven Chi Sau.


Originally posted by anerlich
I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu. That is of course, your opinion. MKF was written for the experienced. Not for the latter. Read the Introduction on page vii. If you would like to share your experiences or knowledge of Kiu Sau, that would help in the discussion. If you have no identified Kiu Sau experience, I can understand your quoted comment above.

[anerlich]

MKF was written for the experienced.


If you have no identified Kiu Sau experience, I can understand your quoted comment above.

LOL. I read page vii, and stand by my original remarks.

So I have to have experience to understand MKF, but if I don't have that experience (in your estimation, if that is worth anything) I might as well not bother? Someone has to show me the secret handshake? Is this some oriental-flavoured, dumbed-down version of the Da Vinci Code?

As for "not here to defend themselves", I've seen Richard Louwenhagen on here often enough. And plenty of those not present were attacked in the book (page 47, since we seem to like quoting page numbers). If you don't want criticism, don't publish.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Ultimately, Kiu Sau is not a technique at all, and is certainly not a buzzword. Kiu Sau represents many of the physical manifestations of the natures required to protect one's personal harmony." (Savi)

Kiu sao is bridging hand techniques that manipulate the fighting situation to your advantage from a certain distance from the opponent.

Best to leave the harmony stuff to Lao Tsu and Mahatma Gandhi.


"In Chi Sim Weng Chun, there are 18 ways to express the natures of Kiu Sau. Other Southern Shaolin systems have their own way too....Kiu Sau is not exclusive to Wing Chun (even though some do not identify with Kiu Sau for the most part), yet on the other hand we have to recognize that Kiu Sau is a HUGE part of the "Shaolin Connection" and is SO much more than a mere "bridge hand" using the middle of the forearm." (Savi)

The leaders of Weng Chun themselves will tell you how the kiu sao flow from the middle of the forearm - along with the appropriate footwork - can lead to armlocks, takedowns, punches, and kicks.


"It has very strong prominence in HFY and Chi Sim, and exists in some form or another in the Red Boat Era Wing Chun; ie. Heaven Chi Sau." (Savi)

And kiu sao has a strong prominence in TWC, and certain other lineages that come from Yip Man as well...to name just a few styles in the Wing Chun world.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
If you don't want criticism, don't publish.

He didn't, so I don't understand your point.

-Levi

[anerlich]

He didn't, so I don't understand your point.

Richard L was a co-writer of MKF, a published book, so he DID publish.

Got it, ace?

[Hendrik]

1, It is not a matter of me accepting what is defined by Shaolin. It is a matter of understanding the basic nature of all things.


2, Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well.

3, To define Kiu Sau as simply one thing, and trying to persuade others to believe that a blanket statement is sufficient for all Southern Shaolin systems is a fallacy. --------


1, HOw can one understand the basic nature of --- ALL --- things from Kiu Sau?

For example: if we talk about reparing a motorcycle. we have to be specific and narrow down the focus to reparing a motorcycle. may be break down into the engine, the wheels.....etc

Now,
Some one might want to write a book called. The Zen of reparing motorcycle. That is respectable for the person's creativity. HOwever, that is not about reparing motor cycle anymore since the main subject has shifted to become both Zen and reparing motorcycle.

Reading a book about reparing motorcycle will lead one to understand how to repare a motorcycle.

Reading a book about Zen of Reparing motorcycle, one is not sure what is the outcome.


2. True.

Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well.

So, in order to study what is kiu sau. we need to understand the common element which is the common denominator of what is kiu sau. That is what the posted above.




3, There is no trying to persuade others to believe what is what in this post.

Using the example of reparing motorcycle again. I post what the motorcyle is about.

HOwever, if you read the book Zen of reparing motorcycle and expect any technical book of reparing motorcycle as juicy as Zen and all things. you will be disappointed. Because the technical book of reparing motorcycle is going to limit the scope on only motor cycle and its operation.



I'll give you an example. HFYWCK has at least 5 different categories of Kiu Sau: Fau Kiu Kiu Sau, Faat Sau Kiu Sau, Deui Ying Kiu Sau, Bong Laap Kiu Sau and Kwan Sau Kiu Sau.

Each are a Kiu Sau no doubt, but they are not all the same. Therefore, one definition for all types of Kiu Sau is not even a reality.



Your ancestors can make the decision on how the kiu sau evolve in your lineage. Similar to a automobile manufacturing company can called thier car 4 runner, Camry..... C220, E320.....

HOwever, I am talking about what the automobile engineering association define about a Car.

As for what is reality. One certainly can neglect what the automobile engineering association or the IEEE if it is electronics standard.

For the Automobile engineering Association, a car has 4 wheel, a car has an enginee, a Car have gear box. A car can have 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive.

NOw, if one's reality of a car is Got to be "Lexus" ---- it has leather seat, it has GPS, it has bose sound system. remote control.......etc that is varid for one car company.

however the Automobile engineering association will not define car that way.




Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are?

The simple answer is: NO. The complex answer is: HELL NO. ;) Not even possible. For what it's worth, Kiu Sau is what it is to anybody who wants to define it. I won't make that mistake because it is not about a definition.



what is the purpose of language?

Those ancient Chinese wrote in a very specific way.

if one think --- understanding the Chinese terminology and definition of Kiu Sau in Southern Shao Lin Chinese martial art doesnt trully describe what the subject it is.

Then, what to understand?





That is far too superficial to say "Kiu Sau is this or that" To have a conversation about Kiu Sau, there must be an understanding of the context surrounding Kiu Sau. Grappling? Recovering horse? Searching the bridge?


For one who takes the book title --- Zen of the motor cycle repair and the truth of the all things of motor cycel repair .
Will certianly have a view of all those technical motor cycle repair books not satified.




Your appeal to authority by saying "If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion" is meaningless. Where exactly is "etc." Hendrik? Have you been there? And pretty much what you are saying is that a "place" is an authority? Wrong focus.




You say on top that

Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are? ....... The complex answer is: HELL NO. ;)

if you are right. Then, Go to Fujian to the source of Nan Shao LIn and test all the hypothesis. To find out what is proper.

IT has nothing todo with authority. IT has all todo with find what what is what. That simple.




So again then, please share EXACTLY what you have recognized to be the definition of Kiu Sau. If this is the definition you are providing, then either you have made a huge leap in your kung fu, or you simply do not understand Kiu Sau.


The definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin is independent of hendrik or his kung fu. whether hendrik exist in this world or not doesnt change the definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin.



For me, Kiu Sau is defined by the Space Time and Energy of the given moment. If it is not needed, there is no Kiu Sau. What is the context? Ultimately, what is the *principle* behind Kiu Sau?


Great to know your definition. why not?





Based on what you have written so far, you and I are far from that level of discussion.

Heck, even I am far from understanding the principle of Kiu Sau. I do, however, have a good familiarity of the concepts and theories behind Kiu Sau.


At this level of discussion and experience, you and I can argue all we want. ;)

Great to know that you are certain about your understanding of the things you study.

definition has nothing to do with "level" or arguement. just definition.





So your point is that White Crane of Fujian is the ultimate root of Kiu Sau? Is that your point? That you have something and I don't? Keep in mind this conversation should be a discussion about Kiu Sau - not about what you have and I dont - and not about you vs me. You still didn't answer my question. :rolleyes:
Really?


????




Then, instead of focusing on the apparent fact that Kiu Sau utilizes Lin Siu Dai Da, fill us in on HOW and WHY it is implemented into Kiu Sau. What is the focus for LSDD in Kiu Sau? That would bring more meaning into the discussion.


Why do you need to ask me ?

since you know it all --- about the time space energy etc.
and you post the following.




The bottom line Hendrik, if you have not experienced Kiu Sau from a good number of the systems from Southern Shaolin to truly understand Kiu Sau, your "provided" defintion will not do anybody or anything involved, justice. Certainly going by word of mouth or the written word will only cut yourself short from the truth we all seek, IMO.



I am reading a motor cycle reparing technical book. Not Zen in motor cycle reparing. Saying OMMMM is not going to fix the damping system of the motorcycle. and I dont think one needs the Zen experience OMMM or ride all the motorcycle in the world to fix a flat tire.

If one want to say OMMM while fix the motor cycle, that is fine with me. If one think just say OMMM and the motor cycle will be fix that is fine with me. ( I just dont do it that way but can accepts others thought).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. "

The following statement by Anerlich concerning the book in question - in response to the above statement...is not a "grudge":

"I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu."

It's simply Andrew's opinion - as someone who has read the book, and has spent many years in Wing Chun.

[Hendrik]

Ok,

Since we have some great discussion. from different oppinions.


why dont we move on


So, as a recap. there is the definition of the kiu, kiu method ( Long kiu, Short kiu, with thier general characterisctics);

the selection to make the short or long kiu type as the core is based on the goal one wants to achieve.

IE: Such as running a company, some CEO wants to achieve number one in sales, some wants to achive numbr one in profits, some wants to achive the highest revernue.....

So, to achive a goal, one select a long kiu core or short kiu core ... Say one select a 4 wheel drive or 2 wheel drive....


then the
" 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge........."
These 4 key words define 4 mode of operation of kiu or bridge.



IMHO, the core technicality of Kiu or brigde is not that complicated to understand at all. and indeed well define.

what is Kiu?
What is it used for?
what general basic method type (long /Short/mix ) there are?
how many type of mode of operation (4 Key words)?
What type of Enginee to drive it?
what type of conditioning ( hard, adaptive....) ?


Nothing mysterious and philosophically deep.
just some thoughts.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
Richard L was a co-writer of MKF, a published book, so he DID publish.

Got it, ace?

No.

1. Your Post was to Savi and you used "You," indicating you were responding to Savi, who DID NOT publish.

2. Loewenhagen Sifu has not been on this forum since October of 2003 (4 mouseclicks to that information), so I stand by my original statement that he is not present to defend himself.

Now I understanfd that you actually were referring to him, even though by grammatical convention you appeared to be referring to Savi. That wasn't so hard.

And seriously was the "ace" comment necessary? I don't recall taking things down a sarcastic avenue, since that usually creates confrontation. I just asked a simple question, and got a mostly simple answer. Is there a need to add little digs to it?

-Levi

[anerlich]

And seriously was the "ace" comment necessary? I don't recall taking things down a sarcastic avenue, since that usually creates confrontation. I just asked a simple question, and got a mostly simple answer. Is there a need to add little digs to it?

I use that expression with just about everybody. My reference point for it is Robin Williams' character in Dead Poets' Society, who says it, kindly, to one of his students. I wasn't having a go at you. If I were, I have much more effective ammo at my disposal.

Paranoia is an overrated lifestyle. As are always trying to claim the moral high ground, and oversensitivity.

Also, those who care more about such things than I could argue whether posting on an internet forum has some equivalence to publishing, but WTH.

[Vajramusti]

Savi sez-

Literal translations (ie. bridge hand) and general details (forearm usage) about Kiu Sau give general understanding about surface-level knowledge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think several posts went further than that.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
I use that expression with just about everybody. My reference point for it is Robin Williams' character in Dead Poets' Society, who says it, kindly, to one of his students.

Then no harm no foul. My apologies. On this side of the water, it's a dig, and I shouldn't have assumed. I even posted on that earlier (mmm.... foot....).


Originally posted by anerlich
Paranoia is an overrated lifestyle. As are always trying to claim the moral high ground, and oversensitivity.

Agreed, across the board.


Originally posted by anerlich
Also, those who care more about such things than I could argue whether posting on an internet forum has some equivalence to publishing, but WTH.

True, although unfortunately it's usually more of a bully pulpit.

-Levi

[Rhat]

The definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin is independent of hendrik or his kung fu. whether hendrik exist in this world or not doesnt change the definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin.

independent of hendrik???
whether hendrik exist???

One nice thing about hahaha: He doesn't talk about other people. Is it because he's aways Hendrik-deep in conversation?



IT has nothing todo with authority. IT has all todo with find what what is what. That simple.

authority???
what is what???
That simple???

Simple of ( ? )
Mouth?
Or
Kiu Sau;)

[Vajramusti]

C'mon Rhat- can you add anything positive to the conversation?

Try?

[Vajramusti]

C'mon Rhat- can you add anything positive to the conversation?

Try?

[Rhat]

Try?

He that knows himself knows how to strengthen his Kiu Sau, and he is the man;)

[Rhat]

Try?

Distinguish people of words from people of deeds;)

[Hendrik]

Ok,

for some, may be we can starts about that 4 mode of kiu operation or the 4 key words which comes with their stanzas.


or, someone knows about these 4 key words can share, no need to wait ...

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Ok,

for some, may be we can starts about that 4 mode of kiu operation or the 4 key words which comes with their stanzas.


or, someone knows about these 4 key words can share, no need to wait ...

Then why wait Hendrik... share.

I'm interested.

-Levi

[Da_Moose]

for some, may be we can starts about that 4 mode of kiu operation or the 4 key words which comes with their stanzas.


or, someone knows about these 4 key words can share, no need to wait ...

I agree with Levi, Please share what you have regarding these frou words/modes/phrases.

It seems very intriguiging.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
I agree with Levi, Please share what you have regarding these frou words/modes/phrases.

It seems very intriguiging.


Let's wait for others to contribute; including Savi and Rhat on thier view about the 4 modes.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Let's wait for others to contribute; including Savi and Rhat on thier view about the 4 modes.

Wouldn't it be better if you shared what you were talking about? "Four Modes" could mean a lot of things to a lot of people but if you let us know what you're talking about, then we can all be on the same page and can actually have a discussion. Vague statements unfortunately lead to misunderstanding, and I don't think that's what you're after so it would be easier to share your framework before we go any further.

Please, of course.

-Levi

[Vajramusti]

I dont know what Hendrik's four terms are. But in good CMA , southern hands and certainly in wing chun... motions can be used
for attack, defense, controlling-breaking and throwing. True for kuen and true for kiu....as well.

[Vajramusti]

I dont know what Hendrik's four terms are. But in good CMA , southern hands and certainly in wing chun... motions can be used
for attack, defense, controlling-breaking and throwing. True for kuen and true for kiu....as well.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

Great post.

Kiu Sau disregard of which method group ( long or short) has general manual states those are what the 4 mode is for.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik

Great post.

Kiu Sau disregard of which method group ( long or short) has general manual states those are what the general manual 4 mode is for.

Typically Hendrik says this...

Great post???
general manual???
4 mode???

:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused:


Originally posted by taltos
Wouldn't it be better if you shared what you were talking about? "Four Modes" could mean a lot of things to a lot of people but if you let us know what you're talking about, then we can all be on the same page and can actually have a discussion. Vague statements unfortunately lead to misunderstanding, and I don't think that's what you're after so it would be easier to share your framework before we go any further.

Please, of course.

-Levi

The new incentive program offers our Wing Chun brothers something no other program offers: a free trip to Hendrik island.

We need to digest Hendrik's "Four Modes" and take it to heart.:rolleyes:

[PaulH]

Hendrik's posts tend to elicit these four possible modes:

A...Ha!
Arg...Huh???
Arg...Hmn...
Ar...Hat!

=)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
I dont know what Hendrik's four terms are.

Hendrik's "4 modes"?

1) hahaha/hehehe
2) Shaolin/Ch'an/Buddism
3) Sound of Silence/Vicent
4) Vacation

As we become familiar with Hendrik's sayings, we often get the idea that enlightenment is the ultimate prize. Then we naturally start to think, "That 's what he says. That's what he wants. That's him."

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Hendrik's "4 modes"?

1) hahaha/hehehe
2) Shaolin/Ch'an/Buddism
3) Sound of Silence/Vicent
4) Vacation

As we become familiar with Hendrik's sayings, we often get the idea that enlightenment is the ultimate prize. Then we naturally start to think, "That 's what he says. That's what he wants. That's him."


Didnt I say

"Let's wait for others to contribute; including Savi and Rhat on thier view about the 4 modes." ?

Great contribution!

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik's posts tend to elicit these four possible modes:

A...Ha!
Arg...Huh???
Arg...Hmn...
Ar...Hat!

=)

didnt you missed the
spring, summer, fall, and winter? :D

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Didnt I say

"Let's wait for others to contribute; including Savi and Rhat on thier view about the 4 modes." ?

Great contribution!

hahaha,

You may feel confident as a writer of one kind of material, "Vague statements" but are not sure how to apply your skills to express yourself in English:rolleyes:

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Didnt I say

"Let's wait for others to contribute; including Savi and Rhat on thier view about the 4 modes." ?

Great contribution! What gave you any indication that I know anything about the 4 modes you know of? My Sihing Levi and Sisuk Steve have expressed interest in dialogue with you. I find it quite inconsiderate that you have waited this long to converse with them. Not a good host, eh? I am not a daily visitor on this forum, so please don't wait for me.

Your aprehension either telegraphs a trap of ill-intentions (baiting), or you are honestly waiting for Rhat and me. If this is not a trap, then excuse my suspicion of your integrity.

You are making others wait on Rhat's and my behalf, so wait no longer! Here is my response:

If you are truly interested in sharing information, well then shouldn't you? I do not know the phrase "4 modes" that you speak of, either. Please, carry on the conversation with others and excuse me.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Savi
Your aprehension either telegraphs a trap of ill-intentions (baiting), or you are honestly waiting for Rhat and me. If this is not a trap, then excuse my suspicion of your integrity.


What does Hendrik chase after?

4 modes? Nope....

An ancient Ch'an master said, "The Way is always with people, but people themselves chase after things."

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Savi
Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless.


What gave you any indication that I know anything about the 4 modes you know of?


I find it quite inconsiderate that you have waited this long to converse with them. Not a good host, eh? I am not a daily visitor on this forum, so please don't wait for me.

Your aprehension either telegraphs a trap of ill-intentions (baiting), or you are honestly waiting for Rhat and me. If this is not a trap, then excuse my suspicion of your integrity.




Didnt you say

"Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless."




Didn't Joy has started the discussion about the 4 modes? if you want to join in go ahead. if not dont complain.

BTW. the 4 keys has nothing to do with any one's integrity. But has to do with know or not.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
What does Hendrik chase after?

4 modes? Nope....

An ancient Ch'an master said, "The Way is always with people, but people themselves chase after things."



Keep guessing if you like to, that is your brain not mine. right?
if you want to discuss about the 4 modes feel free. If not then let others like Joy starts to discuss.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Didn't Joy has started the discussion?


In politics a man must learn to rise above principle.

A few words for you, you need to shine your own shoes, not JOY.

[anerlich]

In politics a man must learn to rise above principle.

Observation would indicate that sinking below leads to political success far more often than rising above.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
In politics a man must learn to rise above principle.

A few words for you, you need to shine your own shoes, not JOY.


It is a common practice that one tries to make fault, put down, or fault finding on others to create a seperation and feeding one's ego.
Indeed this is a strategy for bully either who has no self-confident or feel self-righteous and just to bully others.


Kiu is about fore arm or bridge.

HOw can such an attitude and action of making fault, put down, or fault finding on others to create a seperation and feeding the ego can lead to understanding of bridging or Kiu?



If such make fault, put down, or fault finding is due to understanding of Time, space, and energy. Then, that must be a diffierent type of time, space, and energy which is about separation.

And, separation doesnt need brigde or Kiu. Not to mention it is even further then Chi or stick.


Good luck in your Political discussion.

[Da_Moose]

So are you planning on sharing those four words now Hendrik?

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik started the thread. Levi made an attempt to keep it going. But attempted put downs like the anonymous "Rhat"'s is hardly an invitation to share. So- another thread that is basically done imo.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
So are you planning on sharing those four words now Hendrik?

In the above post,
Some might already know that I have shared the first key word ---Connection.

The rest leave a room for others to contribute..

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
It is a common practice that one tries to make fault, put down, or fault finding on others to create a seperation and feeding one's ego.
Indeed this is a strategy for bully either who has no self-confident or feel self-righteous and just to bully others.



Kiu is about fore arm or bridge.

HOw can such an attitude and action of making fault, put down, or fault finding on others to create a seperation and feeding the ego can lead to understanding of bridging or Kiu?



If such make fault, put down, or fault finding is due to understanding of Time, space, and energy. Then, that must be a diffierent type of time, space, and energy which is about separation.

And, separation doesnt need brigde or Kiu. Not to mention it is even further then Chi or stick.


Good luck in your Political discussion.

Everything depends on what Hendrik is capable of wanting. A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

Instead of playing your little game of KIU, why don't you share those "four modes" now Hendrik? If you are truly interested in sharing information, well then shouldn't you?

Have a good trip to Hendrik's island:confused: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Rhat
Instead of playing your little game of KIU, why don't you share those "four modes" now Hendrik? If you are truly interested in sharing information, well then shouldn't you? Rhat,
Hendrik seems to have his own way of trying to stimulate conversation. Leaving subtle hints, so as to encourage others to fill in the blanks. It's not a big deal- just different. If you don't want to play along, then don't.

It might be better to consider withholding judgement rather than heckle. Then again, you may have some other motivation of which I am not aware........ So, it's a free country. Knock yourself out.

Peace,
Bill

[PaulH]

When I was a child, I watched brother Rene join his Lego bridges; Other times, sunk them; and in pensive moods, sticked them. Best of all, it was fun seeing how he intercepted bridges in motion. =)

[taltos]

If you don't want to share the rest of the list, that's certainly your right. But since I can't be on this forum all the time and I can't sift through hundreds of posts to find information, could you pm me with a description of the list so that I can have something to ponder? It would be greatly appreciated.

-Levi

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Matrix
Rhat,
Hendrik seems to have his own way of trying to stimulate conversation. Leaving subtle hints, so as to encourage others to fill in the blanks. It's not a big deal- just different. If you don't want to play along, then don't.

It might be better to consider withholding judgement rather than heckle. Then again, you may have some other motivation of which I am not aware........ So, it's a free country. Knock yourself out.

Peace,
Bill

Bill,

"stimulate conversation. Leaving subtle hints"

Should the world be governed more by stimulate conversation than by realities?

Is that fully as necessary to seem to know subtle hints as it is to know "Hendrik's 4 modes" ?

So, it's a free country. Thank you!

"judgement"

Here is the begining of philosophy: any man can prove he has good judgment by saying you have. :p ;)

"motivation"

Where there are questions, there are answers.:cool: Hendrik's 4 modes:confused: :rolleyes:


Rhat

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Rhat
Is that fully as necessary to seem to know subtle hints as it is to know "Hendrik's 4 modes" ? Rhat,
Necessary? No, not at all. It just seems to be a different approach. I'm not overly thrilled with it myself, but I recognize a persons right to express themselves as they please. I can then choose to respond or ignore. I can't profess to always understand Hendrik or anyone else for that matter. I take what I can.

Peace,
Bill

[Hendrik]

If one has to wait for the sea to dry into dust to know something one always want to know. Then, one shall know and have insight of what is that something one always want to know.


otherwise, it is just collecting data. and how many V8 video recording tapes one has which never being watched after the travel trip?

why not forget about the something, forget about the V8. just live in the instant?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Bill,

"stimulate conversation. Leaving subtle hints"

Should the world be governed more by stimulate conversation than by realities?

Is that fully as necessary to seem to know subtle hints as it is to know "Hendrik's 4 modes" ?

So, it's a free country. Thank you!

"judgement"

Here is the begining of philosophy: any man can prove he has good judgment by saying you have. :p ;)

"motivation"

Where there are questions, there are answers.:cool: Hendrik's 4 modes:confused: :rolleyes:


Rhat


One cant show what is the true colors of nature to someone who will never take down the dark red sun glasses.

what is reality behind the dark red sun glasses?


BTW, it is Southern Shao Lin's Kio Faat 4 kuits. not Hendrik's 4 modes. :cool:

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Matrix
Rhat,
Necessary? No, not at all. It just seems to be a different approach. I'm not overly thrilled with it myself, but I recognize a persons right to express themselves as they please. I can then choose to respond or ignore. I can't profess to always understand Hendrik or anyone else for that matter. I take what I can.

Peace,
Bill

When one find the answer by one own. it will stay with one all the time. with spoon feed? one couldnt even remember the food one eat.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
When one find the answer by one own. it will stay with one all the time. with spoon feed? one couldnt even remember the food one eat.

No offense, but you said "share" in your original post, not "teach." It would be great if you would share your insights with us, since several people have asked repeatedly.

Please let's not get hung up on who controls the thread.

Hendrick, would you please share the 4 modes with the group? It would be GREATLY appreciated, and would go a long way towards diffusing the situation that anyone can plainly see is arising.

Thanks!

-Levi

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos
No offense, but you said "share" in your original post, not "teach." It would be great if you would share your insights with us, since several people have asked repeatedly.



Because it is "sharing" thus it is a discussion that everyone bring up something to the party. Then, from there, everyone shares.

Joy has started something. so everyone please participate do some thinking/guessing and post your idea and get thing running. If it is just wait for me to "Share" then it is more like a "teach" which I dont think we all want.

Let everyone has a say and see everyone's point of views.

Anyone wants to give a try and start this technical discussion?

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik has his own communicating style. We have our individualities. I really dont think "teaching" accurately captures his communicating style. It is sharing mixed with his own aesthetics(humor, songs) which is not everyone's cup of tea.

I like "starry night" but I have heard it enough. But then one hears the same old shibboleths and mantras- grapple, fight, try the NHB, be real, groundwork--repeatedly too. The circular theory of history is alive and well on KFO--if you just waita little whatever you missed a POV, an insult, a put down will come back soon in the mad hatter's tea party...to capture your attention or put you to sleep

Not just in H's case- but folks sometimes in their manner of heckling and questioning discourage sharing.

Earlier Hendrik used the term bridging method- which dovetails with the notion of connection or connecting.... which also fits in with the kuen kuit on searching for a bridge- make one if you dont have one.
The bridge you make can serve your intention or function-attack, defense, break/control or throw.

Statically kiu can be a section of the forearm... but dynamically
its a process... here again wing chun has long and short bridge
methods. They are there in the forms.
Another reason why the forms are condensed studies in motion.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
One cant show what is the true colors of nature to someone

Did you learn the lesson of "the true colors of nature" from Sensei Unkokusai?


who will never take down the dark red sun glasses.

Ignorance never settles a question. What does your "dark red sun glasses" has anything to do with Hendrik's 4 modes? If you can speak ENGLISH, you will understand the true colors of ENGLISH.


what is reality behind the dark red sun glasses?


It's not that you have to keep your hands off your sun glasses. But you can learn to act in accord with Reality. It would be Reality if you could back up Hendrik's 4 modes.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Matrix
Rhat,
Necessary? No, not at all. It just seems to be a different approach. I'm not overly thrilled with it myself, but I recognize a persons right to express themselves as they please. I can then not overly thrilled with it. I can't profess to always understand Hendrik or anyone else for that matter. I take what I can.

Peace,
Bill

"a different approach"
"not overly thrilled with it"
"I take what I can."

The world is always here. Reality is forever at hands. "Knock yourself out" What we want and need is Rum & Coke.

[Da_Moose]

Hendrik,

I think you should keep in mind that we all have different experiences with Kiu Sau. This being so, we are not all thinking along the same lines as you are, so no matter what we conclude, using your cryptic posts as guides, will not be what you want us to arrive at. As we are also not in a classroom setting, we cannot see what you want us to realize, so that makes this hide-and-go-seek process of yours fruitless. It is simply better if you make good on your original statement and share what you said you would. Otherwise, as Levi pointed out, there's trouble a brewing and this could very rapidly degenerate from a potentially useful thread into a bash-fest. No offense here, but it seems as if your penchant for not answering direct questions with direct answers, or at all, may be the undoing of your own thread. I'd rather not see that happen, and it would seem that others would like to benefit from this discussion as well.

[Chango]

Da Moose,
I think you raise an interesting issue. Can Hendrik be effective in sharing the information that he feels so compelled to boast about ? or will this thread crumble and degrade as many others?


Hendrik,
I think it would be prudent to just flat out call you out on an explination as to what exactly are you consider to be Kiu sau. what are your standards? You have to realize that it is a growing feeling on this forum that you do not seek dialog. Some of us are beginnig to get the feelling that you get some type of eago boost by simply confusing others in an hollow attempt to feel superior. I hope this is not the case. that would be a sad comentary on your charecter if that was the case. So I would like to give you a chance to clear things up. If your intentions are true.

Inspite of some of the heated discussions I have experienced on this forum. I still seek understanding of my fellow Wing chun members P.O.V and hope to help them understand my families system as well that would be regardless of lineage. I hope you share this objective. With that being said a cryptic answer or "big me ,little you" response will not serve anyone well.

Chango

[Vajramusti]

Chango, Da Moose and Rhat-most recently-

You folks have contributed to the collapse of dialog on this thread.

Hendrik was willing to discuss kiu sao and actually shared some things in the discussion--- long, short bridge roles, connection as one of the four items.

Sharing is a two day street.

Besides heckling Hendrik in differing degrees I dont see much elaboration by you on kiu sao.

Thanks to you, I dont think that this thread is going anywhere.
Hendrik can and most likely will do what he wants to-but my advice to Hendrik and you is- forget it.

Cheers and hopefully bye to and on this thread..

[Da_Moose]

Vajramusti,

When the thread began, I saw no real point in my joining in on the conversation. I had already posted about kiu sau quite extensively on Sifu Parlati's original Kiu Sau thread (The Meaning of Kiu Sau) and I saw no reason to repeat myself here. However, I also did watch this thread as it developed, and saw nothing really new, so I felt no need to post, again, it would have been redundant.

Now with the advent of Hendrik stating he wants to share his information, we are not heckling him with malicious intent. He has made several statements as to why he has not offered his supposed information, namely waiting for Savi and Rhat's opinions/input. They have both offered it, and he still deos not make good on his word and post what he said he would. As I said before, it is a habit of his to not post anything directly, and it gets rather annoying. I do not mind cryptic writing as I have read my fair share of such books (Cortazar and Borges are my favs!), but, I also (and I'm not just speaking for myself here) appreciate direct answers to direct questions. If were were all in a class room together, its easier for him to get away with this indirect approach as he can guide the learning/sharing experience to help us arrive at the conclusions he's thinking of through our collective experience. However, as that is not the case, and we all have differing kiu sau experiences, he needs to put out on this thread, or not make claims he isn't willing to make good on. I am also still awaiting answers from the afore mentioned thread I asked of him, but he ran from them too.

As Chango said, it feels as if he gets an ego boost from playing these games.

[Hendrik]

Steve,


I think you should keep in mind that we all have different experiences with Kiu Sau. This being so, we are not all thinking along the same lines as you are, so no matter what we conclude, using your cryptic posts as guides, will not be what you want us to arrive at. --------------


In chinese it says, " it is better to have no books if one trusting books totally "

I dont believe in "what you want us to arrive at". I believe in the process of discuss and investigate and seeing different points of view a better deal.

See, no one is the world can be perfectly correct. So, if we discuss and investigate and seeing different points of view, then we all have a big selection of method and more important methodology.

otherwise, if everything is one way street or arrive at what one wants, that is going to be causing rigid narrow vision after the "honey moon" of reading a book is over.



It is simply better if you make good on your original statement and share what you said you would. Otherwise, as Levi pointed out, there's trouble a brewing and this could very rapidly degenerate from a potentially useful thread into a bash-fest. No offense here, but it seems as if your penchant for not answering direct questions with direct answers, or at all, may be the undoing of your own thread. I'd rather not see that happen, and it would seem that others would like to benefit from this discussion as well. -----------


There is a real incident in Taiwan, one time a chinese student went to see a proffessor. telling the professor that his western class mate knows more about chinese culture then him. since the western class mate knows when the paint brush was invented and when chop stic.... was invented.

So, the professor says, you are totally wrong. he is great in memorized all the data, and you live in it. whatever you did from morning to night is within Chinese Culture. you friend drink milk and eating bread in the morning even he is in Taiwan, as for you, you have a habit of Yum Cha and have a great chatting while doing it.

See, Kung fu is about LIving. what one does everyday is the "it". so, dont think but just describe what is one train everyday. There one can discuss. anyone can discuss about what they train. as it is. similar to the chinese who Yum Cha and chatting is living in the chinese culture and no need to have a certain things call chinese culture.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti


Earlier Hendrik used the term bridging method- which dovetails with the notion of connection or connecting.... which also fits in with the kuen kuit on searching for a bridge- make one if you dont have one.




Joy,

Great!

You are on target!

Yup that is the one about connection.




See, more brain storm one will get more infor out from everyone.


BTW. even one can use this kiut above.
There are two types of Kiu. The hard Kiu and the elastic absorb or soft type.

One can see these two type of Kiu in the movie or pictures. The most drastic one will be the hard kiu people of Nam Kuen will wear a kiu glove which as iron bullets on it. as for the soft type will be similar to if one watch the wing chun movie, Bai Gar Chai, where the character Leong Yee Dai, wrap his bridge with his soft sleve cloth.

Thus, the way of kiu is heavily influence by its application and conditioning. The hard kiu conditioning and the soft kiu conditioning is very different.

So, when there is IRON type of training such as IRON PALM or IRON BRIDGE, one can see the Kiu they use is the Hard type.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Chango, Da Moose and Rhat-most recently-

You folks have contributed to the collapse of dialog on this thread.

Hendrik was willing to discuss kiu sao and actually shared some things in the discussion--- long, short bridge roles, connection as one of the four items.

Sharing is a two day street.

Besides heckling Hendrik in differing degrees I dont see much elaboration by you on kiu sao.

Thanks to you, I dont think that this thread is going anywhere.
Hendrik can and most likely will do what he wants to-but my advice to Hendrik and you is- forget it.

Cheers and hopefully bye to and on this thread..


Joy,

You are right. Sharing is a two way street.
Certainly, sharing is not about "Give me Give me" in the sametime trying to do all kind of putting down..big and small... etc. what have those who playing games here contribute? NONE

I have shared but I dont need to share further if I dont like.

For those wcner's similar to Matrix, takes what you can and go investigate further. It doesnt need a rocket scientist to learn all these Southern Shao Lin Kiu Sau stuffs. and Kiu Sau is not everything. just a part.


As for the hard or elastic absorb Kiu sau.

For example, Hung Gar is belongs to Hard Kiu, Take a look at Hung gar Grand master Iron Kiu Three or Tit Kiu Sam's life. One can see he was a great fighter. But his Kiu is hard. and at old age, he is doing opiun. Then, later due to forcefully practicing the five points plum flower pole. He get sick and passed away. His tragic doesnt discount he is a great fighter but only describe his style is Hard and forcefull. This also shows the Hung Gar's Iron Wire 12 Kiu is different with Wing Chun's. The Hung Gar's Iron Wire set is not equavalent to SLT. as an evident of facts. So does some Nam Kuen Shao Lin set which is similar to Hung Gar platform.

As what Wing Chun Kuen's kiu training is like. That is up to everyone and thier ancestors' localization evolution. NOthing good or bad.

so bye with this post.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
I have shared but I dont need to share further if I dont like.

so bye with this post.

How unfortunate. Another missed opportunity for learning and growth.

Oh well.

-Levi

[PaulH]

:~)

=|

=D

2-.-

ZZzz...

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Hendrik- for your informative posts.

the "dialogue" is somewhat arrested by the snide jeering
and heckling and differing approaches to knowledge.

But it still cleared up for me key differences in varying approaches to kiu and illustrates the differences between wing chun
and some other styles.


Its bye to the thread for me.

Joy

[Rhat]

Can Hendrik be effective in sharing the information that he feels so compelled to boast about ?

Yet someone doesn't realize what he's doing. He's only thinking of himself. And then he wonders why he doesn't awaken.

Where there are questions, there are no answers.
Hendrik's 4 modes?
1)___
2)___
3)___
4) Vacation "so bye with this post."


You have to realize that it is a growing feeling on this forum that you do not seek dialog. Some of us are beginnig to get the feelling that you get some type of eago boost by simply confusing others in an hollow attempt to feel superior.

Buddist Literature often uses the term bodhisattva, which literally means "an enlightenment being" In much the same way bodhisattvas come into the world. In any given moment, instead of waiting for Hendrik, we should have a drink with Bill. Rum & Coke for me, and you gentlemen....!?

[PaulH]

You're truly an evolved being, Arhat! I did not know that you can take coke and rum!

arhat ['ɑːhət]
noun a Buddhist, esp. a monk who has achieved enlightenment and at death passes to nirvana

Just some pills of Tylenol for me! =)

[Rhat]

"You're truly an evolved being,"

We see ourselves as experience of "that, out there."

[PaulH]

Your wisdom is truly unique and very E.T (Extraterrestial)! I must meditate more. &

[Rhat]

But I don't know much about ET...

As far as I am aware, the postman always rings twice at my temple. Can you tell me if Joy is really a postman?

[PaulH]

Surely you jest, I fail to see how you can even ask such question if you are truly awake! ~@@~

[Rhat]

All that I know....

The brighter you are, the more you have to learn.

[PaulH]

Yes, the cursed darkness! Your light bulb may not last long...

[Rhat]

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.;)

[PaulH]

And what do you see in the heart of darkness? - Horror! Horror!

[Rhat]

A follower of the heart of darkness does not need a light bulb.

[PaulH]

And just what do you exactly need? Ha! Ha! It's been light with ya! Have a good weekend!

[Rhat]

I go to see Kill Bill 2.

See ya!

[Savi]

I am reminded of Eddie Murphy's stand up Delerious...

I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't... want some?

SIKE!

I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't... (ice cream falls on the ground)

Anybody see that stand up routine? One of my favorites!

Cheers everyone, and I hope the positive vibes pick up again in the future. That way, we all can benefit from a good conversation.

BTW, if there are any negative comments headed my way (from student and "sifus" alike) for wishing you all well, all I can do is smile back at you.

Samma saam putto.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Savi
I am reminded of Eddie Murphy's stand up Delerious...

I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't... want some?

SIKE!

I got my Ice Cream, and you can't have none!
I got my Ice Cream, and you can't... (ice cream falls on the ground)

Anybody see that stand up routine? One of my favorites!

Cheers everyone, and I hope the positive vibes pick up again in the future. That way, we all can benefit from a good conversation.

BTW, if there are any negative comments headed my way (from student and "sifus" alike) for wishing you all well, all I can do is smile back at you.

Samma saam putto.

Oh My GAWD that was the BEST stand up routine I have EVER seen, looking through tapes now...........thanks..........lol.

[PaulH]

Eddie Murphy's Mama needs to soap his mouth more often when he was a baby! =) Rhat is a funny guy. I just get tired of listening to his looney tunes too many times and so it begins...Ha! Ha! 0\_

[canglong]

It gives me a deep comforting sense that ‘things seen are temporal and things unseen are eternal.’ -- Helen Keller
originally posted by hendik
I have shared but I dont need to share further if I dont like. The names may change but the game is the same always going on vacation but alas you are always seen but seldom heard.

originally posted by PaulH
Rhat is a funny guy. I just get tired of listening to his looney tunes Better to be jovial than always "Out of Office" and at this point hendrik must be putting you to sleep. Pleasant dreams.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
Eddie Murphy's Mama needs to soap his mouth more often when he was a baby! =) Rhat is a funny guy. I just get tired of listening to his looney tunes too many times and so it begins...Ha! Ha! 0\_

Have sympathy for PaulH's tired ears, and make Eddie's mom's work as easy to do as possible. Let's forget about Hendrik's 4 modes for now and just go dancing with them.

Jay Leno, a vistor from the late night show could easily pick out the Joker nations. Eddie Murphy and PaulH go mouth in mouth, hand in hand.


The names may change but the game is the same always going on vacation but alas you are always seen but seldom heard.

Better to be jovial than always "Out of Office" and at this point hendrik must be putting you to sleep. Pleasant dreams.

"vacation"
"Out of Office"

While we're on that subject, bring No.2 pencils with good erasers so you will be able to make neat revisions and corrections as Hendrik speaks.

We see ourselves as experience of "that, out there." Sensei Unkokusai lives there, out there in Koko insland.
Is Hendrik out there?

[Vajramusti]

Still unproductive - return of trolling (Rhat) and heckling( Tony Jacobs).

Hendrik must be on to something- to get so much attention.

Little substantive responses to Hendrik- besides the trolling and heckling.

[Rhat]

The postman always rings twice.

To-day is Sunday, even you (Joy) need a break:rolleyes:

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Vajramusti

Little substantive responses to Hendrik- besides the trolling and heckling.

In reality, everything is interconnected. Hendrik and Joy:D :confused: :rolleyes:

This points to one of the most subtle and profound insights of the Buddha and WCK. It has to do with our Kiu, with our will, with our intent.

Where there are questions, there are no answers. Return of trolling (Joy).:confused: :( :mad:

[canglong]

From Vajramusti aka joy aka the (cheerleader).
Hendrik must be on to something- to get so much attention. For hendrik that "something" would be vacation for you that something would appear to be your post count.

[anerlich]

For hendrik that "something" would be vacation for you that something would appear to be your post count.

And you, Tony? $5?

[anerlich]

The postman always rings twice.

My brother-in-law's dog used to bark and snarl murderously at the postman, and when the opportunity arose, bit him.

These days the postman wisely drops the mail and runs.

[PaulH]

I don't speak for others, but I really enjoy immersing myself in quiet contemplations and solitude far from the madding crowd whenever I have a chance. It would be good for all of us just to be silent and listen to others just like reading a good book. And should we speak, we should speak to communicate with grace and civility. Time is short to waste on meaningless things. I may not be able to keep my temper always, but I should aim to be kind and helpful to others whenever I can. Of course, GM is exempted! That's all, folks! =)

[Hendrik]

Pual,

Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets
are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls."
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence.

[diego]

Originally posted by Hendrik
According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge.

The method of using the forearem for attack and defense is called kiu faat or bridge method.


Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

There are 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge.........


so above is what people are using in 1850's era and continous on......

alright since you fu-ckos killed the thread onsome bullshiat maybe someone who actually was interested in the thread can help out a beginner to kung fu:)

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

so kiu is forearm...can you use all sides of the forearm?...what exactly is kiu?.

can you please define distance attack and clear path of attack and seal off and neutralize with counter?.

I only know some basics of Hop Gar kung fu and learned them years ago haphazardly from my moms boyfriend who wasn't a professional teacher so my terminology and kung fu fighting theories are kinda basic, however i think i get the gist of what's been said but would appreciatte a bit more detail.

i look at wing chun books and i look at hung gar and choy li fut books and i see they all use very similar applications and i understand that's all on the surface...the forms build ones muscles and frame differant which creates a differant engine so to speak so a wing chun tan sao and a hung gar tan sao may look similar but the power is differant...i understand that but would like to find out more about southern kung fu's fighting theories.

like almost every basic western boxer has the same style..why do the chinese have so many styles..what's with all this small frame tai chi and long frame etc

it's like bruce lee said unless someone comes along with three arms and four legs all of mans fighting technique is the same thing etc...so as a beginner to the kung fu theories i'm sure yall can imagine how confused i am:)

also i'm currently looking for a new school but am pretty broke so my search is pretty half a-ss and really this is just for my curiosity i don't have any unrealistic expectations for yall so just drop anything that comes to mind i don't expect yall to break down you styles most advanced secerets so to speak...ya know:)

[diego]

The "yes" aspect can be seen in Wing Chun Kuen's manner of organization. It does not follow the established pattern of linking movements (forms, sets, or routines) of other Chinese systems. Instead, its methods are organized in a progressive, systematic manner all their own. The "no" aspect, however, can clearly be seen in the movements themselves. While Wing Chun Kuen's forms are visibly different in choreography from those of, say, Hung boxing, white crane boxing, Choy Lee Fut, etc. the core movements and concepts are, in fact, quite similar. the center/meridian line concepts, the rise/sink, spit/swallow body methods, the basic dispersing, controlling, wing, circling, barring, and other bridges, its generation of power, as well as the vast majority of its major principles can all be found in the other related Souther boxing systems. These concepts, while perhaps also employed in some fashion in other arts, including Western boxing, their manner would seem to be very different.

found this at Rene Ritchies site baout did wing chun have western boxing influences

see as a beginner i'm looking at this like what made the style...why is say one wing chun differant from another...when they both came from the same teacher

like ip man students may teach tottally differant systems

we all human beings stuck under the same gravity...why all these differant power devolopments etc

maybe i sound retarded but it's like yeah what is the deal:)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
I don't speak for others, but I really enjoy immersing myself in quiet contemplations and solitude far from the madding crowd whenever I have a chance.

Things change radically from day to day. Follow our PaulH's wisdom and we can't go wrong with our Kiu Sau training.


It would be good for all of us just to be silent and listen to others just like reading a good book. And should we speak, we should speak to communicate with grace and civility.

I can't agree more and people are only trying to help. Just in case you want to get really fancy, you can color-code your comments.


Time is short to waste on meaningless things. I may not be able to keep my temper always, but I should aim to be kind and helpful to others whenever I can. Of course, GM is exempted! That's all, folks! =)


Do the best you can. Quitting is not an opion. Brother PaulH, go Kiu Sau and I'll see you there....out there;)

Zatoichi

[anerlich]

Time is short to waste on meaningless things.

So ...... why do you post here? ;)

[PaulH]

Why post here? Perhaps here is better than "there" wherever it is... =D

[PaulH]

Brother Rhat,

You are too kind! May The good Abbess bless you at your temple! =O & E\_

[TenTigers]

Hendrik, you make some generalizations about Hung Ga that would lead one to believe that your information was derived, at best, from other people's posts, rather than first hand knowledge/experience. Hung-Ga is not a long bridge system, although it contains long bridges. It was originally a short bridge system, and through Wong Fei-Hung's interraction with Lama P'ai's Wong Yun Lum, the long bridging was incorperated into the system. Bik Kiu is not the same as Biu-Jee, because Bik Kiu, as the other 11 bridges of the Sup Yee Kiu Sao are concepts, as opposed to techniques. Therefore, it may well be the same in specific circumstances. (I am not saying that Biu Jee is not a concept as well, but Hendrik seems to be technique oriented)
Tiet Sien Kuen contains the twelve bridges, (as do all Hung-Ga sets)and it contains dynamic tension, but that does not mean to say that Hung-Ga uses tension in their twelve bridges. We wear pants and shirts, but we don't wear our pants as shirts. Tai Chi people don't fight slow, or hit soft, SLT is not fighting, to judge a system's technique based soley on outward appearance of the forms is ridiculous.
So .....that being said, what are the four noble truths you've been dangling like a carrot on these boards? Methinks you don't really know them yourself, and are just quoting from another source. Get away from the computer and go into a Mo-Kwoon and actually train Gung-Fu.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, you make some generalizations about Hung Ga that would lead one to believe that your information was derived, at best, from other people's posts, rather than first hand knowledge/experience. -------- T


Great comments.

This post is about comparision the different. NOT about I know it all about Hung Gar. If anyone want to learn Hung Gar. Get a teacher. and forsure, I am not qualify to be a Hung Gar sifu.

My Point is Hung Gar is NOT Wing Chun. Iron Wire set is NOT Siu Lim Tau. Hung Gar's Kiu Sau is not equavalent to Wing Chun's Chi Sau. Long Kiu system is not similar to Short Kiu system. Hard Kiu System is not the same with soft Kiu system. They are different type of system. NOthing more nothing less. Pure technical.

However, I would appriciate if you can go directly to discuss the technical and brought out your technical view rahter then making accusation on me based on assumtion of your own thought. you dont know me. All is about technical, isnt it?

As for Generalization,
is "Long bridge wide stance" just a generalization of Hung Gar style or it has lots of truth behind the generalization?

Since different sifus has different way of "Truth" as in every martial art styles.

Since Lam Sai Wing is a student of Wong Fei Hong.
are Books written by Lam Sai Wing is Lam's a first hand knowledge/experience of Lam or is it not?
can Lam Sai Wing's knowledge/experience used to be a reference?







Hung-Ga is not a long bridge system, although it contains long bridges. It was originally a short bridge system, and through Wong Fei-Hung's interraction with Lama P'ai's Wong Yun Lum, the long bridging was incorperated into the system. ----- T


Great view. And Could be true.

you mention "It was originally a short bridge system"
So, is Hung Gar still a short bridge system or a long bridge?
is Hung gar still that original short bridge system or is generaly a Long Bridge system today of even 100 years ago?

Is Iron Bridge the third (Tit Kiu Sam) using a narrow bridge system or a short bridge system?








Bik Kiu is not the same as Biu-Jee, because Bik Kiu, as the other 11 bridges of the Sup Yee Kiu Sao are concepts, as opposed to techniques.

Therefore, it may well be the same in specific circumstances.

(I am not saying that Biu Jee is not a concept as well, but Hendrik seems to be technique oriented) ----- T


I am "technical oriented" not techniq oriented. A concept is great, a concept without the How to implement, What kind of enginee behind it, and how the enginee operate and technic exercute. what is it's potential. Doesnt really say much.



If memory serve, I think I compare Biu Jee with Hung Gar's Ch'uen Kiu or Inch bridge not Bik Kiu.




Let's look at what Grandmaster Lam Sai-Wing wrote in his book on Bik Kiu.
Iron Wire Set Posture 15. Bik Kiu


continous from last posture. Stand in low Wide horse stance. manual the whole body to shake and lift upward. swithed the wide horse stance back to the letter two clamping yang stance. Both hands sink the elbow. form left and right seperately move upward to infront of Chest. Become a Bik Kiu (pressure bridge) POTENTIAL (notice, this is a POTENTIAL not a concept. it said here very clearly.) With syncronize with the hand's movements. makes a "Wi" (sp) sound.


It said Bik Kui POTENTIAL by Lam Sai-Wing. It even go as far as describing How this POTENTIAL Generated. So, Bik Kiu is a specific type of Potential implement a concept of Pressurized or pressing.

Bottom line, Biu is not Bik. Shooting/spearing is not pressing. not to mention, there are lots of different ways of implementing Shooting/spearing and pressing.

How is this Bik Kiu has to do with Biu Jee? Those are two very different things. If one doesnt get TECHNICAL how is one going to differentiate between the muddy ideas and the facts?

Therefore your idea of "Therefore, it may well be the same in specific circumstances." is not valid. Biu is not Bik. Shooting/spearing is not pressing and cannot be pressing.



Can you explain what is the different of the concept between Biu Jee and Ch'uen Kiu?
how is this Ch'uen Kiu concept implemented?
how to do the inch bridge or Ch'uen kiu move in the set of Iron Wire based on you in compare with what was written by Lam Sai Wing?
what is the "enginee" behind the concept of Chuen Kiu?


Again, let see, As describe in Lam Sai-Wing Iron Wire set.
Posture Forty two ----- Double Chuen kiu (inch bridge)

Low (four balance) wide horse stance. Manual the body slightly shake up. hold erect (four balance) wide horse stance. both "PALM" forwardly clap. with this, continous on forwardly BIU (spear) out. release a "Chech" sound with mouth.


Both Chuen Kiu and Biu Jee are about fingers spearing strike but
Do you think Chuen kiu is similar with how one doing Biu Jee in SLT or WCK?

NOpe to the minimum. Wing Chun doesn use the lower wide horse stance.










Tiet Sien Kuen contains the twelve bridges, (as do all Hung-Ga sets)and it contains dynamic tension, but that does not mean to say that Hung-Ga uses tension in their twelve bridges.

We wear pants and shirts, but we don't wear our pants as shirts. Tai Chi people don't fight slow, or hit soft,

SLT is not fighting, to judge a system's technique based soley on outward appearance of the forms is ridiculous.---------T



1, read Lam Say-Wing's book on the Iron Wire set or Tiger Crane..and you find the content is much more then the "outward appearance." it even mention about the "sound' to release while doing it. And BTW, SLT dont do "sound" releasing.

May be you can enlightent us on how many percent of time while you do the Iron Wire Set, you uses tension? And how many percent of time when a person do SLT uses tension?


2, read Tit Kiu Sam's biography, and one can find out the characteristics or the art and the Bridge of Kiu Sau via how the Grandmaster's stories. Read Leong Jan's biography from Koo Loo too and one can find out the characteristics of the art and the bridge. Let the biographies of the GMs of the system tell the stories.


3, As for SLT is fighting or not, that depend on who one asked.
As for riduclos or not that depend on what one see.

What stance was used? how the power was generated? how the arm was deriver forwardly? How the body was hold? How the internal organs was hold? HOw the AWARENESS was hold? What kind of potential....... lots of technical details can be compared.



So .....that being said, what are the four noble truths you've been dangling like a carrot on these boards? Methinks you don't really know them yourself, and are just quoting from another source. Get away from the computer and go into a Mo-Kwoon and actually train Gung-Fu. -----------------T


Again, it would be more appreciate that not a person attack using the continous discredit tatic but technical discussion. I am open to learn but with evidents. Evidentally, Bik Kiu is an specific implementation of pressing concept. .Not just concept which can be anything. Biu Jee is not the same with Inch Bridge. it implement differently and take different power path and platform.


So, do you actually train Bik Kiu, Chuen Kiu....etc. in a Mo-Kwoon or just disagree to disagree. or you yourself is not sure but didnt check with your sifu? or you want to overwrite LAm Sai-Wing's writing? or else how come you dont know lots of details of your own style? :D

This above paragrah of mine is not a great way to communicate isnt it? So, drop these train Gung-Fu and go into a Mo-kwoon stuffs, and go technical is better right? bottom line, it is nothing personal but a technical comparison. You dont have to agree with me. I am not perfectly right, and cant be.

[duende]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hendrik, you make some generalizations about Hung Ga that would lead one to believe that your information was derived, at best, from other people's posts, rather than first hand knowledge/experience.


BRAVO TEN TIGERS!!!

Looks like the only person Hendrick fools these days is himself. Oh and Joy of course...

I always appreciate coming across knowledge that goes beyond surface level text and pictures.

Obviously Hendrick doesn't, and finds your post as an attack.

I agree, he should heed your advice and go back to training Gung Fu.

[canglong]

originally posted by Ten Tigers
Tai Chi people don't fight slow, or hit soft, SLT is not fighting, to judge a system's technique based soley on outward appearance of the forms is ridiculous. A common mistake but what is so surprising is that it is being made by so many martial artist.
originally posted by Ten Tigers
So .....that being said, what are the four noble truths you've been dangling like a carrot on these boards? Methinks you don't really know them yourself, and are just quoting from another source. Get away from the computer and go into a Mo-Kwoon and actually train Gung-Fu. Agree it would appear hendrik is looking for an answer more than ready to provide any.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by duende
BRAVO TEN TIGERS!!!

Looks like the only person Hendrick fools these days is himself. Oh and Joy of course...

I always appreciate coming across knowledge that goes beyond surface level text and pictures.

Obviously Hendrick doesn't, and finds your post as an attack.

I agree, he should heed your advice and go back to training Gung Fu.


You obviously spoken your heart. But it can be an illusion of your own thought trapping your own thought, nothing todo with the world at all.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Ten Tigers
Tai Chi people don't fight slow, or hit soft, SLT is not fighting, to judge a system's technique based soley on outward appearance of the forms is ridiculous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A common mistake but what is so surprising is that it is being made by so many martial artist.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Ten Tigers
So .....that being said, what are the four noble truths you've been dangling like a carrot on these boards? Methinks you don't really know them yourself, and are just quoting from another source. Get away from the computer and go into a Mo-Kwoon and actually train Gung-Fu.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Agree it would appear hendrik is looking for an answer more than ready to provide any.



I dont provide fantasy answer which others love to hear. That is for sure. As for answer, the facts recorded in past 100 of years has told the story.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
I dont provide fantasy answer which others love to hear. The fantasy of your post is there in black and yellow. As said before there are questions and there are no answers.

[duende]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You obviously spoken your heart.

and mind to be certain!


Originally posted by Hendrik
But it can be an illusion of your own thought trapping your own thought, nothing todo with the world at all.

Yes it can be. It also is very apparent how hard it is for you to let it go. Hence the reason why we all think you should add some reality to your life and train Gung Fu.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by duende

Yes it can be. It also is very apparent how hard it is for you to let it go. Hence the reason why we all think you should add some reality to your life and train Gung Fu.




There are two possibility.
Either I am dreaming or you "all" are dreaming. hahaha


Who is "we all?" is it all? or is it just " some" limited number of people thinking they are all? such as in a dream.

See, dreaming and reality is not the same stuffs. and first get it specific, and clear. who is "we all"?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
The fantasy of your post is there in black and yellow. As said before there are questions and there are no answers.


first , one has to learn to ask questions. other wise, answers has no meaning. and one doesnt take garbage fantasy as truth without questioning it. That is about reality.

You sure dont understand the important of asking questions.
but understand only you are always right others are wrong.

[Da_Moose]

Ten Tigers,
Thanks for the great information. It’s nice to see a Hung Ga practitioner adding input on the conceptual level! Most awesome!


Hendrik writes,
first , one has to learn to ask questions. other wise, answers has no meaning. and one doesnt take garbage fantasy as truth without questioning it. That is about reality.

You sure dont understand the important of asking questions.
but understand only you are always right others are wrong.

What? Are you kidding me? You’re saying this, the “master of fleeing from direct questions”? If you’re not willing to answer questions that are directly posed to you, who are you to be lecturing others on the proper methodology behind question asking???!!!???
I have asked you several direct questions, knowing what I wanted to ask. I asked them with an open mind and heart, truly desiring to learn what you had to say regarding Kiu Sau in several threads of late. Taltos has also done the same. I have yet to receive direct answers, nor has he. I agree with Ten Tigers that you need to return to a Kwoon and train. It seems as if you’ve forgotten the three basic principles of Wing Chun; Simple, Direct & Efficient. If you’re a WC guy, why can’t you answer questions with such Simple, Direct and Efficient answers? These would be much more appreciated and beneficial as opposed to all of your inane & disjointed responses that we (being everyone who is not you, just in case you decide to ponder that and ask me) need a sieve to finely filter out the one or two crumbs of valid, useful information. You say things along the lines of “They’re not my kiu sau…, they are from S. Shaolin”, yet you never offer the proof to back yourself up. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously? Are you sure you’re a WC Guy? I only ask because you seem to be lacking the Forward Energy needed to answer questions. You run from them.

As for the “you understand you are always right…”, man, stop and smell what you’re shoveling there! I believe you’re up that same creek as well at times!



You obviously spoken your heart. But it can be an illusion of your own thought trapping your own thought, nothing todo with the world at all.

As have you Hendrik, as have you. And most of us (again, those who are not you, for clarity’s sake) probably feel the same way about you when reading your posts. They may make sense to you, but only in your world, they are illusions to us with valid experiences, in this case, using and learning kiu sau. You offer conjectures and…… oh, more conjectures, but no proof , no “In my experiences with my family…” that would help to make your statements less rigid and therefore less susceptible to attacks.

I wonder if you’re writing these disjointed, haphazard posts are a way for you to garner attention, much like a 5-year old who cries when he needs attention.


I am "technical oriented" not techniq oriented.

Lets see here….. TECHNICal … TECHNIQUE…..


A concept is great, a concept without the How to implement, What kind of enginee behind it, and how the enginee operate and technic exercute. what is it's potential. Doesnt really say much.

Uh, duh, the concept is the engine/reason/how behind a technique. If you understood concepts, you’d get this. Nope, he’s a Technique Guy, who "Doesnt really say much."

My apologies to everyone else, Back to the Kiu Sau. What are those four Modes of Kiu Sau you had, Hendrik? And please, just list them and explain them to us in Simple, Direct and Efficient answers.

[TenTigers]

Hendrik, not for nothing, but...your quotes of people's quotes of people's quotes on this board is the same as your quotes from Lam Sai-Wing's books-which were written by Leung Dat, I believe.
Ok, I would love to have a dialogue with you, but if you are to quote from a book, please include the illustrations, so I can tell which part of the form you are referring to. You see, I learned hands on from my Sifu, not from a book, so I have trouble following your quotes, I mean posts. I will try, so bear with me.
I didn't scroll back, so i inadvertantly said, bik kiu rather than chuin-not that it would make a difference. Both chuin kiu and biu jee are about fingers spearing out-ok, that is wrong. Yes, it is illustrated with biu-jee, but that is simply one shining example of chuin kiu, meaning you can shoot biu jee from a slightly coiled position (again, since I do not have the book, or the illustrations, it is hard to tell what the position was that preceded biu-jee=I'm saying biu jee because that is what it is, a spearing finger strike, being used with the chuin-kiu concept.

" As for Generalization,
is "Long bridge wide stance" just a generalization of Hung Gar style or it has lots of truth behind the generalization?"

Just a generalization. Hung-Ga HAS long bridges, and it HAS wide stances, it also HAS short bridges, and Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma. It also has Gwai-Ma-a kneeling stance-so we should now generalize that we fight on our knees, I suppose. Gu-Lao Wing Chun also has this stance, so we should be able to fight one another! (sorry, the visual of that seemed so funny, I had to share it-are you picturing this? ROTFLMFAO)

"Since Lam Sai Wing is a student of Wong Fei Hong.
are Books written by Lam Sai Wing is Lam's a first hand knowledge/experience of Lam or is it not?
can Lam Sai Wing's knowledge/experience used to be a reference?"

It is a fine reference, but it is not a substitute for first hand experience. You can read all the books you want about chocolate, but untill you have actually tasted chocolate, you will never truly understand.

"So, is Hung Gar still a short bridge system or a long bridge?
is Hung gar still that original short bridge system or is generaly a Long Bridge system today of even 100 years ago?"

Both. We have long and short bridges, hard and soft bridges,etc. We fight close, but use long bridges in close. "We fight in your shadow" Long arm does NOT mean long range.

"I am "technical oriented" not techniq oriented. A concept is great, a concept without the How to implement, What kind of enginee behind it, and how the enginee operate and technic exercute. what is it's potential. Doesnt really say much."

What's an enginee? I haven't a clue what you are saying.

"Can you explain what is the different of the concept between Biu Jee and Ch'uen Kiu?
how is this Ch'uen Kiu concept implemented?"

Chuin Kiu is inch bridge-I touch you -anywhere, I strike from anywhere, from an inch, or from less than an inch (awn ging) inch shoulder, inch hip, inch knee, inch mind-you blink, hesitate,breathe, I am inside you. Chuen-som.
My Mom's Gung-Fu was awesome-give her an inch, and she'll try to park a car in it.

"NOpe to the minimum. Wing Chun doesn use the lower wide horse stance. "

what about the pole form?

"May be you can enlightent us on how many percent of time while you do the Iron Wire Set, you uses tension? And how many percent of time when a person do SLT uses tension? "

The wire set is all about release of tension. It is not tense all the way through, it has tension and release, shifting, rising, falling, open, close, swallow,spit, coil, and the twelve bridges, but id you simply watch someone perform it, you might get that impression. The techniques and concepts are not apparent because these are taught hands on from Sifu to Student only. No book, video, or website will ever transfer knowledge to your hands. Can you learn Chi-Sao from a book?

"Let the biographies of the GMs of the system tell the stories."
Sure, but don't let them be your teacher. Let them be your inspiration.

"So, do you actually train Bik Kiu, Chuen Kiu....etc. in a Mo-Kwoon or just disagree to disagree. or you yourself is not sure but didnt check with your sifu? or you want to overwrite LAm Sai-Wing's writing? or else how come you dont know lots of details of your own style?"

Actually I do train/teach in a Mo-Kwoon-six days a week. As I did not read LSW's books, I only know Hung-Ga from being taught by my Sifus-hands on. I can't quote from books, sorry. I am at a loss.
I hpe I answered your questions. Please include the illustrations/photos next time and I could follow what you are saying,um, except for that enginee thing!

[Hendrik]

not for nothing, but...your quotes of people's quotes of people's quotes on this board is the same as your quotes from Lam Sai-Wing's books-which were written by Leung Dat, I believe. -----


First of all, you love to make too many assumption.





Ok, I would love to have a dialogue with you, but if you are to quote from a book, please include the illustrations, so I can tell which part of the form you are referring to. You see, I learned hands on from my Sifu, not from a book, so I have trouble following your quotes, I mean posts. ------- T


The books of Lam Sai-Wing art on Hung Gar are not some new books published. It was there being popular and respected by CMA artists in Asia for decades and decades.

In my opinion, you need to get those books.

As for such as Bik Kiu or Seong Chuen Kiu in Iron Wire Set.
Isnt it a standard for one learn the set? in the old time, I remember student has to learn all the name of the postures/moves while learning the set.

Similar to if one speak of Bong Sau in Wing Chun Kuen. All lineage knows what is a Bong Sau.





I didn't scroll back, so i inadvertantly said, bik kiu rather than chuin-not that it would make a difference.

Both chuin kiu and biu jee are about fingers spearing out-ok, that is wrong.

Yes, it is illustrated with biu-jee, but that is simply one shining example of chuin kiu, meaning you can shoot biu jee from a slightly coiled position

(again, since I do not have the book, or the illustrations, it is hard to tell what the position was that preceded biu-jee=I'm saying biu jee because that is what it is, a spearing finger strike, being used with the chuin-kiu concept. -----------T


There are a 2 questions here.

1, Is the Double Chuin Kiu in the Iron Wire Set not Standard? similar to a Bong of Wing Chun is Bong disregard of lineages?

2, in Tiger and Crane set of Hung Gar, there is a poster/move called the Double Dragon out to the sea. This is the Double Chiun Kiu of Iron Wire set. It said, " in wide horse stance, using strenght spearing the ten fingers forward. The application is both hand biu out the finger. In Iron Wire set, posture 33, there is the slan body Chuin Kiu again. it said, using the side forward stance.... right palm strech straight and rush out forward.

If you say Chiun Kiu is not about spearing the fingers out. How come the Tiger and Crane set use Chuen Kiu in the same way?





For in both sets, if one check into about Tit Kiu Sam's Chuin Kiu, they are about spearing the finger with strength with wide horse stance or side wide forward stand.


3, why do you need a book if both sets above disregards of previous condition of the move, uses Chiun Kiu as spear fingers?








Just a generalization. Hung-Ga HAS long bridges, and it HAS wide stances, it also HAS short bridges, and Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma.

It also has Gwai-Ma-a kneeling stance-so we should now generalize that we fight on our knees, I suppose. Gu-Lao Wing Chun also has this stance, so we should be able to fight one another!

(sorry, the visual of that seemed so funny, I had to share it-are you picturing this? ROTFLMFAO) -------- T


1, as I have mention in my post before. a Strike makes with a wide horse stance is different with a strike makes with narrow horse stance.

2, Everyone has all kind of horse stance. But what is the characteristics of the style that is the key.

3, All Wing Chun has the Gwai Ma.






"Since Lam Sai Wing is a student of Wong Fei Hong.
are Books written by Lam Sai Wing is Lam's a first hand knowledge/experience of Lam or is it not?
can Lam Sai Wing's knowledge/experience used to be a reference?"

It is a fine reference, but it is not a substitute for first hand experience. You can read all the books you want about chocolate, but untill you have actually tasted chocolate, you will never truly understand. -------- T


That is true if one pre-Assumption that other never studied Hung Gar but qouting the Books Blind.

But then, what about those others have studied Hung Gar, knows about what is going on, and uses the "fine" reference as the reference to identify what is what clearly?

Such as, one can traced how the Chuin (inch) kiu of Hung Gar is perform and applied in Different sets.
identify how the power are generated. stance, all those technical details with evidents written from the past generation. Instead of rely on he said she said. But some "fine" reference.





"So, is Hung Gar still a short bridge system or a long bridge?
is Hung gar still that original short bridge system or is generaly a Long Bridge system today of even 100 years ago?"

Both. We have long and short bridges, hard and soft bridges,etc. We fight close, but use long bridges in close. "We fight in your shadow" Long arm does NOT mean long range. ------ T


The Question is about

what kind of system is Hung Gar for past 100 years?
is it a narrow stance short bridge or is it a wide stance long bridge?
How is the basic training?
Does Hung gar train in Wide horse stance as the primary basic training or YJKYM??
how many percent of time one train in Hung gar train with narrow stance and short bridge compare with the wide stance and long bridge?






"I am "technical oriented" not techniq oriented. A concept is great, a concept without the How to implement, What kind of enginee behind it, and how the enginee operate and technic exercute. what is it's potential. Doesnt really say much."

What's an enginee? I haven't a clue what you are saying. ----- T


That is the "enginee" of how one generate the power.

Every style has its "enginee". The Taijin the reel silk. The Emei the Snake move...... and some other style using Wide horse stance with pushing the hip with slightly shake forward.....







"Can you explain what is the different of the concept between Biu Jee and Ch'uen Kiu?
how is this Ch'uen Kiu concept implemented?"

Chuin Kiu is inch bridge-I touch you -anywhere, I strike from anywhere, from an inch, or from less than an inch (awn ging) inch shoulder, inch hip, inch knee, inch mind-you blink, hesitate,breathe, I am inside you. Chuen-som.


My Mom's Gung-Fu was awesome-give her an inch, and she'll try to park a car in it.
-------- T



Great description.

however, is this description similar to the Hung Gar 12 bridge, the Tit Kiu Sam's 12 kiu practice, or the practice in the Tiger and Crane Set from the "fine' reference from decades ago?

Is Chuen (inch) means Short distance or finger? Is Chuen Kiu means manualing the Bridge in a short distance? or it is means " I touch you anywhere? .......inch knee, inch mind-you blink, hesitate,breathe, I am inside you. Chuen-som."

How is Chuen Kiu present itself interm of action in Iron Wire and the Tiger Crane set? One can define everything as one wants but is that definition accord with the practice in the sets?

Or it is a new Localized revolution version?

BTW, how do you generate all these great inch power? you certainly has to know the "enginee" and the operation of the enginee to generate " I touch you anywhere" power. Which set of Hung gar train this type of power?

There are different ways in manualing a bridge in a short distance. That has to be very specific.










"NOpe to the minimum. Wing Chun doesn use the lower wide horse stance. "

what about the pole form? ---- T


The subject of this topic is about Kiu Sau right?
Apple compare with apple.
Does SLT the core of Wing Chun using wide horse stance?







"May be you can enlightent us on how many percent of time while you do the Iron Wire Set, you uses tension? And how many percent of time when a person do SLT uses tension? "

The wire set is all about release of tension. It is not tense all the way through, it has tension and release, shifting, rising, falling, open, close, swallow,spit, coil, and the twelve bridges,


but id you simply watch someone perform it, you might get that impression.

The techniques and concepts are not apparent because these are taught hands on from Sifu to Student only.

No book, video, or website will ever transfer knowledge to your hands. Can you learn Chi-Sao from a book? --------- T



1, So you are saying atleast 50% of the time when you do Iron Wire set you use tension right?


2, you always love to make assumption about others . you can be right but you can be wrong too with assumption.

3, Now, without making assumption, How many percent of the time while a WCner doing SLT using Tension?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose

I have asked you several direct questions, knowing what I wanted to ask. I asked them with an open mind and heart, truly desiring to learn what you had to say regarding Kiu Sau in several threads of late. Taltos has also done the same.


I agree with Ten Tigers that you need to return to a Kwoon and train.

It seems as if you’ve forgotten the three basic principles of Wing Chun; Simple, Direct & Efficient.



1, It is my decision to give answer to you or not, to give you how many answer, or answer you how far. That is my freedom, right? So what to complain?

2, You love to make assumption too.

3, thanks for reminding me.
Didnt I practice the simple, direct, and efficientcy way of dealing with people who is trying to steal my information and talked bad about me (by not giving them answer and ignore them.) Why teach them so that they makes more HIs-Story and keep bad mouth me?


I dont have to continous to share when putting down and all ..... starts isnt it. hahahaha.

And now I do exactly that. bye bye.

[TenTigers]

"If you say Chiun Kiu is not about spearing the fingers out. How come the Tiger and Crane set use Chuen Kiu in the same way?"
I really did explain this to you earlier, but I will simplify it-on one condition-you find a synonym for enginee. Or perhaps the equivilent in English?
Yes the spear hands are demonstrating Chuin, but that is not the only way you can perform chuin. Concept, concept, CONCEPT!
You seem to be hung up on this particular technique as being the only way one can perform chuin. Like I said, it is simply one example of many different ways to perform chuin. Perhaps the authors used the spearhand simply to convey a concept in the simplest of terms. Look, if you want chuin to only be a spearhand, then fine. For you and all your descendants, chuin is a spearhand. Your Gung-Fu is only limited by the limits you set on yourself.
Hung-Ga is characterized by large horse, iron bridge (long and short)There seems to the onlooker, or casual observer that Hung-Ga has more emphasis placed on long bridge, but when examined move for move, it is pretty much equal. Even in Wing Chun,many of the movements are extended-i.e. man sao, biu-jee,gaunn-sau, jik chung choy,fut jeong,etc.
The inch power is trained all throughout the forms, as are many of the other energies used in Hung-Ga.
In many of the schools of Wing Chun that I studied at, there were places within the forms that had tension, such as the huen sao, grab and pull in, wu-sao/fook-sao section, and in the first tan-sao. This might not be the same in your Wing Chun, fine. But in several schools of Yip Man's Wing Chun that I have studied at, there was tension in those sections. Funny, I have never seen it in any books, however, so you might not be aware of this either.
(Sigh)

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
1, It is my decision to give answer to you or not, to give you how many answer, or answer you how far. That is my freedom, right? So what to complain? There is no shame in admitting you don't know the answer.

[Hendrik]

Yes the spear hands are demonstrating Chuin, but that is not the only way you can perform chuin. Concept, concept, CONCEPT! ---T



The bottom line of my post is :
Hung Gar's Chuin Kiu is not the same with WCK Biu Jee.

Since you posted, " Therefore, it may well be the same in specific circumstances."

To fully investigate about Chuin Kiu.
As my post above, So what is Chuin kiu? how was it defined hundred of year ago in Tit Kiu Sam's time? how is the Chuin Kiu implement and illustrated in the Sets.

Certainly, you are free to inteplated the way you want.


As for CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT, certainly you want to investigate into the Differences between ---- Jee Kuit and Kiu.
Jee Kuit is concept. Kiu is about bridge.

IE
There is Something Called Bik Jee Kuit. which is a Concept.
And there is something called Bik Kiu. which is a pressurized bridge implementation.

I am posting hung Gar's Chuin Kiu is not WCK Biu Jee. You disagree and saying "Therefore, it may well be the same in specific circumstances" and continous on to talk about the Concept instead of the specific implementation. Namely, the Hung Gar's Chuin Kiu and the WC's Biu Jee.





Perhaps the authors used the spearhand simply to convey a concept in the simplest of terms. ------ T

I dont think the authors created the Iron Wire or the Tiger and Crane set. The Authors or LSW is just presenting what is the posture of the set mean.



As for your description on Chuin Kiu,
"Chuin Kiu is inch bridge-I touch you -anywhere, I strike from anywhere, from an inch, or from less than an inch (awn ging) inch shoulder, inch hip, inch knee, inch mind-you blink, hesitate,breathe, I am inside you. Chuen-som."

You mention Chuen-som or Jung Sum here.


Lets examine fights between Tit Kiu Sam and Wu Hai.

" Tit kiu Sam broken his Door/gate, then goes in and seal of the oponents changes, wave his hand and Wu Hai drop to ground. .."

another fight between Lee Yee kung and Tit Kiu Sam.

Tit Kiu Sam used the Bik letter Kuit, horizontally intercept his bridge hand, The, continous on grab his elbow,.. then, using palm to atttacked his side ribs area..."


So, how were Tit Kiu Sam's fight?
Broken the gate, intercept the bridge hand or kiu sau...
Saying nothing about "Chuen-som" right?



A WCner's fight characteristics will be Tuit Choong/jung (capture the Center), Poh Choong /jung (broken the Center).
Observing your describtion, your describtion is closer to WCK then how Tit Kiu Sam fight. So, are you sure your describtion is not an localization Evolution influence by Wing Chun Kuen?




Look, if you want chuin to only be a spearhand, then fine. For you and all your descendants, chuin is a spearhand. Your Gung-Fu is only limited by the limits you set on yourself. ----- T


As mention above, you love to make assumption. and when the topic is in Chuin KIU. you keep pushing for Chuin Jee Kuit. Perhaps it is not other's Kung fu is limited by the limits other set. But it is that you dont AWARE of what other is talking about?

Chuin Kiu of Hung Gar in the Iron Wire set or the Tiger and Crane set is not the same with Biu Jee of Wing Chun.







Hung-Ga is characterized by large horse, iron bridge (long and short)There seems to the onlooker, or casual observer that Hung-Ga has more emphasis placed on long bridge, but when examined move for move, it is pretty much equal. ------ T

You certainly can make the claim. and in all style, Hung Gar sure has a complete training.

However, Hung Gar is still characterized by large horse, iron bridge. right?




Even in Wing Chun,many of the movements are extended-i.e. man sao, biu-jee,gaunn-sau, jik chung choy,fut jeong,etc. ----- T


There are differences between extended with streching the physical arm all the way, extended the AWARENESS to sense without extended the physical arm all the way, and extended the force intensity projection or shooting without streching the physical arm.
One has to be clear about what type of extended isnt it?


Wing Chun dont streching out all the way while doing bui Jee similar to Hung Gar right?
IT CANT be extent all the way, it is not effective for the narrow stance platform of Wing Chun to let the physical arm to extent all the way.

Again, as I post above WCK is not Hung Gar.





The inch power is trained all throughout the forms, as are many of the other energies used in Hung-Ga. ----- T


What is the driving force of this inch power? that is the question.
A strong muscle? Shoulder? the full arm?
A wide stance? pushing the hip while streching extending out the physical arm ? step forward ? or all of above? or Reel Silk similar to Chen TaiJi....... there are lots of different type of driving force.







In many of the schools of Wing Chun that I studied at, there were places within the forms that had tension, such as the huen sao, grab and pull in, wu-sao/fook-sao section, and in the first tan-sao.


This might not be the same in your Wing Chun, fine.

But in several schools of Yip Man's Wing Chun that I have studied at, there was tension in those sections.

Funny, I have never seen it in any books, however, so you might not be aware of this either.
(Sigh) ------ T

Have you seen GM Yip Man or YKS has big muscle in thier arm? due to training the TENSION? No right? Wing Chun suppose to be lady like right? No big muscle.

SLT Train INTENTION AND AWARENESS(LISTERNING) not hard Muscle. Go look up at TST's Book. it is out there. Check it out.


There are tons of things in this Universe that I am not aware of since I am no God. Hahahaha.

I never worried about to be perfect, I never worried about knows it all, because I am just human.


My view :D
Such as cooking sand cant become rice. make sure it is rice in details before the cooking . and it takes only less then an hour. otherwise, one can cook for 10,000 years. sand is always sand.

As for go somewhere to train, well, one doesnt need to go somewhere to train. ONe lives in it. while walking everystep is a Jong. every move is the Kung. otherwise, one life and one's training is seperate. One cannot married but live seperate, isnt it? only until then, live together, one is really married. :D


Great to chat with you. Thanks.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hendrik, you make some generalizations about Hung Ga that would lead one to believe that your information was derived, at best, from other people's posts, rather than first hand knowledge/experience.

So .....that being said, what are the four noble truths you've been dangling like a carrot on these boards? Methinks you don't really know them yourself, and are just quoting from another source. Get away from the computer and go into a Mo-Kwoon and actually train Gung-Fu.

Within each of us is a center of wisdom far deeper and greater than Hendrik's disjointed, haphazard posts.


Originally posted by Da Moose
I agree with Ten Tigers that you need to return to a Kwoon and train. It seems as if you’ve forgotten the three basic principles of Wing Chun; Simple, Direct & Efficient. If you’re a WC guy, why can’t you answer questions with such Simple, Direct and Efficient answers? These would be much more appreciated and beneficial as opposed to all of your inane & disjointed responses that we (being everyone who is not you, just in case you decide to ponder that and ask me) need a sieve to finely filter out the one or two crumbs of valid, useful information. You say things along the lines of “They’re not my kiu sau…, they are from S. Shaolin”, yet you never offer the proof to back yourself up. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously

The path to mastery is a path of knowing. When you know something, you no longer just believe it. You've lived it, and the speculation is replaced by knowlege. Where there are questions, there are answers.

And Hendrik's 4 modes????????


Originally posted by Hendrik
There are two possibility.
Either I am dreaming or you "all" are dreaming. hahaha


hahaha,

In truth, it will be very rare for you to find an answer.:rolleyes:

[Da_Moose]

1, It is my decision to give answer to you or not, to give you how many answer, or answer you how far. That is my freedom, right? So what to complain?

Why am I not surprised?


Wait, Wait Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think I know the lyrics to this one, well, at least the refrain!
.
.
.
Ready!??!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
Da Doo Run, Run, Run, Da Doo Run, Run!




2, You love to make assumption too.

Which assumption would that be?



Didnt I practice the simple, direct, and efficientcy way of dealing with people who is trying to steal my information and talked bad about me (by not giving them answer and ignore them.) Why teach them so that they makes more HIs-Story and keep bad mouth me?

Ahh, now the light is on. You claim to be willing to share information, but perceive those of us interested enough to listen as thieves. I won’t make that mistake of expecting you to be genuinely concerned & open about discussing WC or history in general.

One of my favorite quotes is this:
“There are those who barely feel poetry. They generally dedicate their lives to teaching it.”
-Jorge Luis Borges

Maybe it needs some modification for this situation:
“There are those who superficially know Wing Chun, they generally dedicate their lives to typing it.”

[Da_Moose]

Ten Tigers,

I curious if you would be willing to write about the Kiu Sau of Hung Ga for us? You're understanding/perspective and experiences of the concepts that they describe. If memory serves, there are 12 Kiu Sau in Hung Ga, correct?

Thanks!

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
Ahh, now the light is on. You claim to be willing to share information, but perceive those of us interested enough to listen as thieves. I won’t make that mistake of expecting you to be genuinely concerned & open about discussing WC or history in general.

When we are willing to open our consciousness to new ideas and new ways of thinking about issues, then our lives change for the better. When you're with someone who cries, let him.