Xingyi and Bagua

[_William_]

I have a question for everyone:

Is it typical for an instructor to teach both xing yi and bagua?

There is a sifu in my city that teaches both, and I was looking to add some xingyi to my repertoire.

[SPJ]

Xing Yi and Ba Gua are 2 distinct schools.

Both take years to practice.

Your teacher may come from either school.

However, nowadays teachers have to know a little bit of everything so as to attract students with different interests.

It is sad.

So more than likely, the teachers will say they teach both, plus Tai Ji, plus -- plus ----

Best of luck.

:cool:

[cerebus]

Actually, it's somewhat of a tradition for Hsing-I instructors to learn Bagua, and vice-versa. Many of the best known Chinese masters of Hsing-I & Bagua had trained extensively in both arts.

[omarthefish]

What cerberus said AND.....

If your dealing with a teacher with 40-50 years of experience it's really not unreasonable for them to have true skils in more than one art. ESPECIALLY considering the very intimate relationship between Taiji, Xing Yi and Bagua. They will probably have at least one that they are best at but it doesn't mean that they are not very very good at all 3 even. I would GUESS my own teacher's skill:

1. Taiji and Baji (an even tie.)
2. Bagua
3. Xing Yi

63 years old. Started training when he was 5. Even if you don't count anything before he was 18 as serious, that's still 45 years of serious training. And once you get really good at something like Taiji, it's not like you start from scratch with Bagua.

I just don't but into the idea that you can only master one.

[SPJ]

Yes.

That can also be the case.

My teachers are one internal plus one external. They have extensive knowledge of many disciplines. One is Ba Gua plus Liu He Mantis. Another is Tai Ji plus Shaolin Quan. Another is Xing Yi plus --

Cheers.

;)

[Apostol]

Actually, most teachers I've seen know Tai Chi, XingYi, and Ba Gua all together.

[DoGcHoW108]

wow, interesting i was just trying to explain this to someone on the "beng chuen" thread.

Not to put too fine a point on it- Bagua is what XingYi is trying to tell you.

[SPJ]

Xing Yi posture is San Ti Shi.

Ba Gua posture is ready to walk to the side and back.

Xing Yi maneuver is linearly forward and aiming for the centerline.

Ba Gua maneuver is crossly/laterally to the side and may attack the side, the back and also the front of the opponent.

San Ti Shi is a defensive posture and shields your center line.

Ba Gua steps to the side are the main defense and to walk away from the opponent's strong front.

Please watch the one Jet Li's movie.

The fighting moves are not exactly right.

The bad one is fast in Xing Yi. The good one has to use Ba Gua to walk away and attack from the side.

Maybe the movie is trying to tell us something.

:cool:

[XingYiDao]

the xingyi in the one sucked ass

[Thundermudd]

I think that Xingyi and Bagua complement each other.

I also think that the representation of both Bagua and Xingyi in 'The One' were not accurate.
Then again, movies are NOT real.

[Palmer]

Originally posted by DoGcHoW108
wow, interesting i was just trying to explain this to someone on the "beng chuen" thread.

Not to put too fine a point on it- Bagua is what XingYi is trying to tell you.

You obviously do not read any of the old poems and songs about Hsing-i. Although the internal arts all have similarities and deal with the same truths about the human body Hsing-i has earned its place as a unique internal art up there with all the others. And Hsing-i is not trying to point you to Bagua.

Also San ti shi the way I have learned it is not just a defensive posture. Actually I could write about Hsing-i and hardly ever use the word defensive since I believe Hsing-i preaches having an overwhelming offense is your best protection.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by XingYiDao
the xingyi in the one sucked ass

I read an interview with Jet Li about The One when it came out. He said they heavily modified xingYi and Bagua for the movie, but that was for "flash" for the movie.

He said that it was just the "flavor" of the arts that was left.

[DoGcHoW108]

Originally posted by Palmer
You obviously do not read any of the old poems and songs about Hsing-i. Although the internal arts all have similarities and deal with the same truths about the human body Hsing-i has earned its place as a unique internal art up there with all the others. And Hsing-i is not trying to point you to Bagua.


Probably didn't read those in too great of detail- are those like the ones that are in Yang Jwing Ming's "Xingyiquan" book? forgive my generic sources- i dont really have much to build on as far as literature.

can i get some insight?

[Buddy]

Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua all use the same basic body method (shenfa) This is the use of Neijin. OK what does that mean? It means that they use the body, relaxed yet extended and aligned with gravity in a whole and coordinated manner (whole body power). It means that they stretch and release the connective tissue and deep layer musculature for power. It means that the body always is filled with pengjin to its extremities although it may only be apparent at touch. This is the basic shenfa.
I will speak of Xingyi but will admit my interest is in baguazhang, specifically the Yizong system of the Gao Yisheng branch of the Cheng Tinghua style. It's said that Xingyi is easy to learn but difficult to master. I believe that. Xingyi has, at its core, five basic movements that are directions of power usage...up to down, down to up, back to front, inside to outside, and outside to inside. This is a very simplistic way of looking at the wuxing but I believe the most fundamental. My understanding is Xingyi's primary goal is protect ones own centerline and to attack the opponents. Xingyi tends to use a direct vetical power to accomplish this. Notice I didn't say linear but direct. Of course Xingyi has horizontal power (hengquan) but it tends a greater use of vertical power.
Baguazhang is difficult to learn and difficult to master. It uses vertical, horizontal, and diagonal power. In the Cheng style you see the use of fanshen, overturning the body. I could be wrong but I haven't seen this in my experience with Xingyi (or Taiji). Cheng style bagua uses youshen, swimming body, that in my experience is unique to bagua, although I have spoken to someone who said their "village style" Wing Chun has it. I haven't seen them so I remain unconvinced. I cannot reproduce it but my teacher, Luo Dexiu's use of Xingyi and Bagua are similar becuase of his high skill but different when observed.
This is, of course, just the very surface but will have to suffice.
Regarding Santi: When I first learned Xingyi (w/Bruce Frantzis) we did Santi and piquan for a year before doing anything else. It built a great deal of static power but I'm not convinced that was the best method.

[BAI HE]

(Golf clap)

Great post B.

[DoGcHoW108]

You Sheng- definately different from anything ive done thus far in xingyi. same for the single and double palm change and the snake palm change. Havent learned anything else tho as far as Xian Tien.

Okay, cool, now that we have this in the road- what about straightline sets?

Do you feel that any of the straightline sets in Gao Bagua are similar to some xingYi?

There actually seems to be a Pao chuen in the 6th section of the 1st line. The 8th one really just looks like a fancy Zuan chuen...but im not very good with details on that last one. Its been a while since ive gone over Gao Bagua with anyone in detail.

I have only learned the first line and the first technique in the second one. That first technique in the second line seriously looks EXACTLY like it has xingYi Beng chuen in it (in the last strike) though extended.

Anyway, there's other similar motions, but what counts i guess is how these things are very linear, but then not quite linear. Do you end up using these things with circular applications?

I guess, could you say that in bagua you end up using a lot of concepts inside Xingyi but give them a new dimension of movement?

comments?