Addiction

[FooFighter]

I would like to speak about addiction. We all have some kind of addiction and I am curious how people relate to their addiction or have did they overcome their demons. Some addictions are very serious and deadly and anyone here who is open enough to share their experience has my respect regardless if they are the hero or the victim of their addiction(s). Please remember that your success is our success. Here is some basic questions: What is your addiction? Where did it come from? When did you start your addiction? Why are you an addict? How did you overcome your addiction or why are do you still an addict? I hope some of you who are still addicts will find enough strength to overcome them by reading some of the experiences here.

Sincerely,
Bao

[rubthebuddha]

nurture, says me. i can understand that certain traits are more likely to appear in the descendants of those with the traits, but that can only go so far. how much alike are parents and their children? environment and circumstance to me hold so much more influence, and i think that too many people are quick to say "he's got his father's temper" or "she has her mother's obsessiveness." if a person grows up in an environment in which those behaviors are the norm, they may have a hard time later correcting that behavior out of themselves.

[Meat Shake]

Well, nutured and genetic. They have done studies on crack babies that shows a major problem as being the withdraw from the crack cocaine uppon birth. To withdraw, one has to first have an addiction, and if the addiction was given via blood to the child, it would be in a sense genetic.
Other than that, nurtured... But then you have the issue of physical or psychological addiction? Both are overwhelmingly powerful often enough...
I myself am addicted to sugary foods, and pot. The sugary foods, Im trying to cut out. The pot, I only smoke at night now. Thats cut out enough, I enjoy getting stoned for the pure enjoyment of getting stoned. I also like the taste of pot.
:)
Sugar, however, I cannot seem to cut out. I love candy. Always have... Trying to quit. Its working slowly, but hell... Its hard work. I used to be addicted to cigs for a while, but I dropped those cold turkey after 3 years of addiction. 20 years of sugar is not so easily dismissed however.... *jitters*
;)

[FooFighter]

MeatShake:

Thank you for your candid reply and sharing your experience. I read that you are an addict to sugar based foods and the green buddha. What are your plans to free yourself from these addictions? I'm assuming of course that you want to be free from such addictions, right? I am glad to have read you quit smoking the ciggies. How hard was it for you to quit smoking? Are there any helpful advice you may want to share to those who want to quit? Once again thank you for sharing your experience.

Sincerely,
Bao

[IronFist]

Genetic: certain people have addictive personalities. These people are more succeptable to becoming addicted to anything: working out, sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.

I know, at least in the case of alcoholism, it is genetic, ie. certain families are more succeptable to it than others. So I say genetic.

I tried to find a scenario in my head where addiction would be nurtured, but I can't. I don't think one can be conditioned to have an addictive personality. And in any case where nurturing was the cause, you could just say they were able to be nurtured to be addictive due to their genetics, ie., the same conditioning would not have had the same effect on someone else.

So genetic, I think.

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
Genetic: certain people have addictive personalities. These people are more succeptable to becoming addicted to anything: working out, sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.Word. I'm like this. I just have to channel my energy towards good addictions. For a long time it's been exercise.

I'd also say environment. I had years where most would classify me as a hardcore drug user. A lot of that time was spent working hard physical labour in mining. I had big dollars and would blow a lot of it when I had R&R time in the city. But each year for 7yrs I went overseas for up to 6mths and didn't touch anything besides alcohol. No withdrawal symptoms or anything. As soon as I returned and was with my friends - bang - I'd be back into it.

[FooFighter]

Guys thanks for your comments but please dont forget to do the poll!!! I think nurture and nature has much an important influence on addiction. We may have the genes for a certain disposition but if it is not nutured then I am sure that disposition would not have a chance to manifest into a reality. Likewise we can nuture a particular habit. However it becomes a lot easier to quit this habit when we dont have the genetic disposition to become an addict? I have learn to change and quit many bad habits and lucky I have faith in my own free will to change myself. In many ways I do have an addictive personality and very cautious about enjoying life's pleasures, especially sex.

Sincerely,
Bao

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Word. I'm like this. I just have to channel my energy towards good addictions. For a long time it's been exercise.

I'd also say environment. I had years where most would classify me as a hardcore drug user. A lot of that time was spent working hard physical labour in mining. I had big dollars and would blow a lot of it when I had R&R time in the city. But each year for 7yrs I went overseas for up to 6mths and didn't touch anything besides alcohol. No withdrawal symptoms or anything. As soon as I returned and was with my friends - bang - I'd be back into it.


being there's no reason to judge nor hold it against your stabilty.............



speaking now as a human behaviourist / counsellor / ch'an buddhist , .....there are certain life and environmental factors coupled with persons' tendancy or maturity and awareness of greener pastures at the time and that bring about such vulnerabilities......... genetics play exposure, and i don't believe an addict is an addict for life ( also majored in substance abuse and relapse prevention centuries ago)..........

I do believe in "enough is enough ", and a desire for change and better things....................... if loosing the addiction is gonna get you there, well, you do it............. if you don't deem it neccessary, or never desire the grass on the other side with enough pang to bring it about, you won't..................

nothing is permanent, not you, not your addiction and certainly not the needfulness that made you wanna abuse it in the first place ;)


Ps.........Toby, day at a time and please don't respond, seen some friends die and do nick til this day ;).props dude :cool:

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps.........Toby, day at a time and please don't respond, seen some friends die and do nick til this day ;).props dude :cool: Lol! Like the Xebby diet thread, I believe willpower is the important factor. I used because I wanted to and enjoyed it. I didn't really think of the consequences. Now I don't want to there's no chance of using again. My circumstances are very different to what they were. My friends still take stuff but nowhere near as much as we used to. Some people couldn't handle it. My best friend became pretty much paranoid schizophrenic from meth. Another guy who I sort of knew died a couple of times in an ambulance and in hospital on two separate occasions from h but kept using. I still see him around occasionally, so he's still alive. It's been many years for me. Since '97 probably.

[blooming lotus]

meth is sweet comforting b*tch, but she'll kill or head f*ck you quick as look at you..............


trials and tribs of growth ha

[IronFist]

To prove nuture you would have to prove that the individual was not genetically predisposed to addictive behavior.

[blooming lotus]

just like the disposition to kill, I believe adiction is totally environment meets personal growth and circumstance............... BS blame your gne pool .......................... sh*t happens, and pending where you're at in life, you react accordingly ........................ even if Moms was a whatever and dad did whatever he did................ dongma???


you can nurture it, or be real grown for a sec, get over it, and rise above , or refuse to admit it's an issu ( like me and my drinking) ;) lol..(getting there when i get a chance to scratch myself and think a mo, ) or disregard it and maintain your staus quo............... onus is on oneself to grow ... end of story..............
that's being grown babes.............. up to it????

[FooFighter]

IronFist

It is probable that you can nurture any behavior or habit regardless of genes? Are we all blank pages at birth or do we come with pre program waiting to run? Are all habits or behavior based on genes alone? I would argue in some cases it difficult to know for certain the true source of one's habit or addiction? If genes alone were cause of all forms of addictions, then it is not the responsiblity of the indivdual to correct it and that they are of course not legally accountable for any crime caused by their addictions? You see the gene argument is a very fixed there is not much room for change. I am afraid of such an option, Iron. By the way, to prove nature you have to prove that the individual was not nurtured to an addictive behavior.

[Tak]

I'm of the opinion that, while we may inherit certain tendencies, we can either reinforce or overcome those tendencies.

It's easy for addiction to be nurtured - if your parents are at the bar every night and they start giving you booze when you're 9, it makes it a lot harder for you to enjoy alcohol in moderation as an adult. If your parents are heavy smokers, it's pretty natural to start smoking yourself as a teenager. Etc.

The crack babies argument doesn't count, because the babies are already addicted to crack because of its presence in their mothers' bloodstreams while they are in utero. It doesn't have anything to do with genetics, it has to do with the fact that they've been smoking crack for 9 months by the time they're born.

I have several friends and family members whose families have histories of addiction. For some of them it was not an issue, some of them struggled and beat it, some of them unfortunately did not.

[Spark]

I'm a firm believer that to say one is genetically dispossessed to become something is a total cop-out. There is always a choice. Alcoholism runs in my family - am I genetically disposed to become one? I'll probably never know because I don't drink.

I truly believe that it is one's environment that shapes them and addiction.

IronFist - you mentioned you had trouble finding a scenario where addiction was nutured. I think a good case study would be to trace the addiction of Native North Americans to alcohol. As far as I know, there was little or none before Europeans arrived, and upon their arrival, and discovery how much the Natives enjoyed to drink, almost every trading scenario would include a barrel of booze.

To reinforce my point about environment, imagine growing up somewhere where you know that chances are you'll never leave that small village and will live in poverty or squalor for your entire life. You have no future and little hope at a better life. Whatever drug (alcohol, glue, gas, etc ...) is available that can take your mind away would be a welcome relief. You can see this scenario played out in reservations in Canada, and I'm sure in many other places around the world.

[IronFist]

I think you guys don't know what "genetic predisposition" is.

[Vash]

My family is predisposed to alcoholism. Thankfully, i managed to get a taste when I was 3 or four. I remember running to the toilet and throwing up my hamburger shortly after. These days, I find my addiction to be exercise. I'm glad I got one before the other.

[Tak]

I used to live very near a few reservations, and I must agree with Spark. Alcoholism has become a part of the new native american culture in many areas.

[Spark]

Originally posted by IronFist
I think you guys don't know what "genetic predisposition" is.

Haha maybe you'd like to share with us your definition? :p

I didn't study genetics, but it was touched on in the anthropology that I took.

My understanding is that what that means is there are people who would argue that in your DNA make up, there are specific genes that determine what kind of person you will become. Thus some will say that there is a violence gene, an addiction gene etc ... that are present in one's DNA - and that when the person whom this applies to becomes violent, or becomes addicted, it is not their fault because their genetic make up has made them this way.

[blooming lotus]

I agree with what the majority of you are saying, but Irons' defence, of course there are certain factors of dna and hereiditary disposition and vulnerablity to certain things ( like disease of or lesser function of emotion/ bio-structure etc), that make it "harder" as opposed to "you're born a loser , now accept it", to overcome.............as I said.......... onus is oneself, and each of us has our own disptions and environmental factors to take or leave/ overcome or assimilate to...................


I really don't think there's a "right" answer on this one.



Cheers

[FooFighter]

IronFist

In college, philosophy was one of my personal hobbies and it was often a nice way to kill time outside class. The current philosophical problem or hot topic is nature of mind and neo-dualism. I believe this is why science of AI, behaviorism, and movies like Matrix is very popular with today's people.

I think I know what is the meaning of genetic disposition because I have studied it in college. But I am not claiming I am a professor on the subject, Iron. I have often pondered the philosophical arguments on 'determinism' and look at all possible theories and its fundamental results. Indirectly as I examined determinism and discussed it I noticed many people have used 'addiction' to justify their arguments. One of being the genetic predisposition argument. Why dont you define what you mean of genetic disposition? So I can understand your point of view and resolve any problems of semantics, ok?

I agree with BL. I believe there isnt a clear black or white answer on this topic, but I think it is important anyhow to understand this topic because it is so vital to our success or failure.

Bao

[Meat Shake]

Genetics doesnt mean that a person will definately do something because its in their genes, its simply more likely. Someone without the genetics to be ****sexual or a killer may kill or be gay, and someone with the genetics may never kill nor be gay. Outside stimuli do very much play a part in the psychological development in humans, and your psychological development will play a major part in how you behave. Like I said before, its a combination of genetics and environment. Science will back me up if I felt like digging up the links. Read any college psychology book.
TONS of things effect people in many different ways...
I have to do some work now, so I apologize if this doesnt make any sense... Its in no way a complete thought. Ill finish later.
:)

[Buddy]

Addiction is a choice. I don't care if it's in your genes or in your jeans. If your whole lineage were boozers and you never take a drink, you ain't addicted.

[IronFist]

Ok, listen. Your behavior doesn't have much to do with it. Consider two people, x and y. X has alcoholism genes and Y doesn't.

If x never drinks, he will not become an alcoholic. He is still genetically predisposed to becoming an alcoholic, tho.

If y drinks all the time he won't become an alcoholic because he is not genetically predisposed to.

One's actions have no bearing on one's genetic predisposition.

[Spark]

Originally posted by IronFist
If x never drinks, he will not become an alcoholic. He is still genetically predisposed to becoming an alcoholic, tho.

If y drinks all the time he won't become an alcoholic because he is not genetically predisposed to.

One's actions have no bearing on one's genetic predisposition.

Whoa come on now do you really believe that? That if "Y" goes to the bar everynight after work and drinks 3-4 beers they won't become alcoholics because they don't have the "gene"? Yet if "X" gets drunk, then the alcoholism gene kicks in?

Besides, Let me ask you this then - Doesn't the alcoholism/addiction have to start somewhere? Somewhere down the chain someone who wasn't had to become addicted to something in order to pass this "gene" along - yet they never had it to begin with.

Genes might not help a situation but it is often an event or environment which triggers the will to drink/become addicted IMO. I can think of several personal instances where a family member died and someone close to them became alcoholics afterwards.

[Meat Shake]

Hehehe...

"If y drinks all the time he won't become an alcoholic because he is not genetically predisposed to."

If Y drinks all the time, he already is an alcoholic, genes or not. One does not have to have the genes to become and alcoholic, and one does not have to become an alcoholic because one has the genes. Its in how you were raised, what surrounds you, who surrounds you, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect... you get the point. There is no one single determining factor in people. Who you are is conducive to many things, genetics included.

[blooming lotus]

Iron,

Please don't feel "set upon " here, but acoholism in gene pool disposition doesn't exist. What does exist is certain emtional and psychological tendancies coupled with circumstance........... pending age and development when such " circumstance " hits, will dictate how you respond........... do you understand our meaning Iron???.................

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... but acoholism in gene pool disposition doesn't exist.Really? What about Australian aborigines? What about (with my limited understanding) Native Americans? How would you explain their propensity to alcohol (amongst other things) abuse?

[rubthebuddha]

a good read on minorities and alcoholism: http://alcoholism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=alcoholism&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niaaa.nih.gov%2F

brings up one thing i hadn't thought of before -- availability of treatment for minorities.

for other info, go here: http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

[FooFighter]

Does the gene argument sound like a predetermined close system or a case point for racist thinking? Think about it. Are we human being a close or open system? Is it possible to predicate what a human being will do just by studying his genetic dispositions or make up? It is fair to assume that an Irish Man is more likely to be a drunk than a yellow man and therefore helpless in his addiction? Should I not hire an Irish because it is a know "fact" his group has genetic disposition being drunks? I dont believe the genetic argument in itself proves anything especially in predicatable behavior. I may have the gene to become a great martial artist like Bruce Lee but it has not kick in yet. I wondered why? LOL.

[SimonM]

I'm actually of two minds on the subject of addiction. I do not think it is genetic however I believe the process is more complex than simple environment. It is true that certain substances cause chemical changes in the body that engender a craving for the substance. Tobacco, Heroin, Cocaine, and Caffeine (in descending order) are examples of these. On the other hand, it is possible to create a psychological addiction to an object which does not engender a chemically induced craving. This accounts for the scores of "potheads" who find themselves resorting to extreme measures to acqiure Marijhuana - despite the fact that Caffeine is technically more addictive.

Enjoyment of the effect (an environmental stimulus) is in my opinion about 75% of the addictive effect. A chemically induced craving (nicking for a smoke) adds an additional prompter since people do not like feeling ill. If the subject derives absolutely no enjoyment from consuming the drug though, I imagine that even the chemical craving that accompanies Tobacco, Crack or Heroin would be sufficient to keep them on the drug.

The trap lies in the relief of the bad feeling when a subject consumes a drug which induces a chemical craving. Often the immediate relief of the ill feeling they experienced before is enough to count as a positive effect and people who have otherwise stopped enjoying a drug will continue to consume it to remain "normal".

So, with this logic in mind, our goal in order to control the spread of addiction within culture should be to find effective ways to treat and manage withdrawal symptoms rather than incarceration or (as in the case of tobacco) social persecution of addicts.

[Tak]

Toby: I attribute it mostly to local cultural issues. Most small redneck towns in the midwest US (with high genetic diversity two or three generations back) have high alcoholism rates too.

[Spark]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Does the gene argument sound like a predetermined close system or a case point for racist thinking?

It's eugenics all over again!

It's scary $hit if you ask me.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
If Y drinks all the time, he already is an alcoholic, genes or not

:rolleyes:

Drinking all the time doesn't mean you're an alcoholic. Please go look up the definition of alcoholic again.

[blooming lotus]

well that's the best news I've heard all day.......... ;)

[Meat Shake]

"Drinking all the time doesn't mean you're an alcoholic. Please go look up the definition of alcoholic again."


Main Entry: al·co·hol·ism
Pronunciation: 'al-k&-"ho-"liz-&m, -k&-h&-
Function: noun
1 : continued excessive or compulsive use of alcoholic drinks

:p :p :p
:D

[FooFighter]

I doubled checked and Meatshake's definition is correct. LOL.

[Spark]

Originally posted by IronFist
:rolleyes:

Drinking all the time doesn't mean you're an alcoholic. Please go look up the definition of alcoholic again.

Step 1 - DENIAL!

:p :D

[FooFighter]

To paraphase Iron, "Smoking all the time doesnt mean your an addictive smoker. Please go look up the definition of a smoker again." LOL. Seriously doesn't repeating an act over time lead to genetic disposition?

[IronFist]

By your guys' logic I must be addicted to work because I work a lot. :rolleyes:



ad·dic·tion (-dkshn)
n.

Habitual psychological and physiological dependence on a substance or practice beyond one's voluntary control. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=addiction)

Ok let me spell this out for you:

Drinking all the time does NOT = alcoholic

Drinking all the time and being unable to stop = alcoholic

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Seriously doesn't repeating an act over time lead to genetic disposition?

Are you seriously asking that question? Behavior doesn't affect genetics.

[IronFist]

The problem is that everyone is too busy being politically correct to admit that some people have better genes than others. But topics like these are so taboo because someone will always start yelling "racist" or whatever. For example, the thread on the main page about genetics and race. That got locked because no one wants to believe that there are genetic differences between blacks, whites and asians. And then you get the people who are all "oh, there's no such thing as 'race.' We're all the 'human race.'" :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Iron fist is correct. We're not talking about the choices here, we're talking about the physiology, that was half of the question, is it genetic? You can't answer that question by saying "no, it's choice", you either show how some addiction is not physiological in nature or fail to do so(as has occured here).

Since no one is suggesting that drugs don't interact with your specific physiology(as determined by your genetic code) and since no one is suggesting that withdrawal won't differ from person to person because of their physiology and it's interaction with that drug(which is largely interacting with the results of your genetic code- you), we must assume everyone agrees that physiology is the determining factor for how drugs(and physical addiction) affects us physically, therefore, no one has disagreed with Ironfist even though many think they have.

Those saying it's all choice, are you saying that there is no physical addiction to heroin? Could you explain how the withdrawal symptoms are psychosomatic, then?

Ironfist isn't discounting will, he's pointing out that drugs have physiological effects, and one of those is addiction, and that physiology helps determine the degree of that addiction, just as mental state helps determine the degree of psychological addiction.

However, I know of no one who has ever gotten the shakes from quitting pot, but I've known plenty with a psychological addiction to it.

Burroughs made some inciteful comments on the difference between cocaine addiction and heroin addiction, the key point being, he stated, that heroin addiction suplants the flesh, takes its place(in metaphorical terms), and the addict lives in abject fear of not feeding the new flesh, because the pain of withdrawal to a heroin addict is not a pain that addict has left behind, it is its own pain, something distinct to heroin addiction.

Heroin withdrawal can kill. This alone points out that simply saying it is all choice is fallacious- addiction has a variety of tricks up its sleeve, and will is an important weapon against it, a point that no one here is arguing against.

[IronFist]

So is this discussion over? KC Elbows, how do you know so much?

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by IronFist
KC Elbows, how do you know so much?

I am addicted to the internet.

[Meat Shake]

"I am addicted to the internet"

Bahahaha... fantastic answer.

"The problem is that everyone is too busy being politically correct to admit that some people have better genes than others. "

Yes. I am a smattering of races, and due to selective breeding, superior to you all.
:eek:

:D

<-meatshake is still correct that addiction is attributed to a number of factors. :p

[Spark]

An interesting case study just dawned on me that might be able to shed light into this.

For those who have seen the movie SuperSize me, there is an interesting part of the movie where Martin begins to realize that he has in fact become addicted to eating McDonalds. When telling his doctor about his feelings and emotions involved, the doctor concludes that in fact they are classic signs of addiction - depression, wild mood swings, relief when eating/satisfying addiction etc ...

I wonder if he had a McDonalds addiction gene!?

The most telling part of Iron's definition of addiction to me was the HABITUAL aspect, which then leads to the rest of the definition. Notice how in the definition there was nothing about genetics.

*Drinking all the time does NOT = alcoholic

Drinking all the time and being unable to stop = alcoholic*

Sweet so all we have to do is never try to stop drinking and we'll never be alcoholics!

[blooming lotus]

I think the gene that is responsible ( and be fair to Iron here .) is more about vulnerablity and pre - conditional / situational behavioural tendancy..........

don't gig him.he has a valid point to discuss...........agree as I do or don't

Genetic pre-disposition does account for something, but to not try because you were gentically predisposed otherwise is like not attempting to read because you were not born an academic genius, or not trying to run 'cause when you were born you were pre - disposed to not having the abilty to walk.......................crazy no???????

Everyone has something/s to overcome... but you acheive regardless.............. well I do anyway ;)

[Serpent]

In that case, can you please try to overcome your inability to converse coherently?

[blooming lotus]

good come back and peer reply - jerk off :rolleyes:

when the f/*ck wil you folks grow the mother f*ck up and have a real conversation where you accept that you could learn something??!!? ( considring you haven't yet learned to master your own body weight ? ::eek: :eek:)

Dammed egotists..........
:mad: :rolleyes: :rolleyes

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
considring you haven't yet learned to master your own body weight ? ::eek: :eek:)

This new line you're following about us not being able to handle our own bodyweight is pretty weak and really uninformed. As usual.

I'd go head to head with you in bwe any day, lady. Then you have to try against me on some other things that you wouldn't have ever even considered, as you already have all the answers.

But it'll never happen...

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
( considring you haven't yet learned to master your own body weight ? ::eek: :eek:)I did two pistols on each leg today. Does that count? But I'm yet to build up to those difficult pushups on my knees that you've mastered. My back and biceps just aren't developed enough.

[IronMonkey]

If there is anything Im really addicted too, its chocalate. I just love it! I always eat alot of it, more than Im supposed to, and its kinda hard to stop :o I really need not take it and start my ab workouts already! :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

I don't have anything against anyone who's still soldiering to get my previous landmark fitness levels, it's a great thing!! And for the record serpnt, many folks here have openly declared their lack of developed skill in that area. I love a tip , but just not from someone who doesn't know. Believe me or not, but can you understand my feelings about that??

Ps: lol @ the challenge. Like we'll see each other in the near future to begin with and secondly, let's just leave it there ha :rolleyes: ;)

Ps: chocolate is a good thing and won't do too much too affect your abs if you're doing most else as healthy choices........ might want to work the love handles a bit though ;) :p :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I don't have anything against anyone who's still soldiering to get my previous landmark fitness levels, it's a great thing!! And for the record serpnt, many folks here have openly declared their lack of developed skill in that area. I love a tip , but just not from someone who doesn't know. Believe me or not, but can you understand my feelings about that??

Ps: lol @ the challenge. Like we'll see each other in the near future to begin with and secondly, let's just leave it there ha :rolleyes: ;)

Ps: chocolate is a good thing and won't do too much too affect your abs if you're doing most else as healthy choices........ might want to work the love handles a bit though ;) :p :D
Yeah, sorry - didn't mean to do anything that might have disrupted your delusions. Everything's ok. You can go back to blooming lotus land where everything is exactly as you say it is and everyone else is wrong.

[blooming lotus]

Dude... I never said i'm not wrong, and in fact if you read other posts I've made you'll see I recognise wrongness on occassion as a trait of being human and mortal.............

I even admit on occassion ( much as I do or don't like you or am indifferent) that you are right when I'm not. When another arguement is brewing concurrently though .............??? what chyou adressing for the short time you're willing talk on it??

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what chyou adressing for the short time you're willing talk on it??

[KC Elbows]

1) "Genetic pre-disposition does account for something, but to not try because you were gentically predisposed" BL, no one is arguing this. No one has said this, and no one has even inferred how this is an accurate conclusion to "addiction has a genetic component".

2) "Sweet so all we have to do is never try to stop drinking and we'll never be alcoholics!" Incorrect, he said "unable to stop", whether you try or not, you are either unable or able to stop.

You(Spark) do make a good case that there is nothing in the definition directly tied to genetics, though we have tied it to genetics by way of physiology. This also doesn't mean that it's the only thing tied to the cause, but a real rebuttal notwithstanding, it's a bit hard to argue that physiology, and thus, genetics, aren't a part of it, which is what some people seem to want to argue, but have no argument to do so with without making straw dogs like BL's #1 above.

[IronFist]

"straw dogs?"

I'm not familiar with that expression. What does it mean?

[KC Elbows]

When you make an argument by arguing against something no one is claiming as if someone is claiming it.

[Spark]

My point was that his first comment of that drinking all the time does not = alcoholic, is an oxymoron.

Of course I have never implied that genetics are not involved, however, I simply argue that they are not the only determining factor. I made a point that somewhere along the line, there had to be someone who was the first to become addicted, a sort of what came first, the chicken or the egg - were they just born with an addictive gene, or did they become addicted thus passing on the gene? I believe it is the latter and the nature of addiction, as in the definition it states the word "habitual". Substances have addictive components that anyone came become attached to. So if I dont' have the gene for alcohol, heroin or cocaine addiction, i get a free pass? I can drink all I want, 7 days a week, without fear of becoming an alcoholic? I seriously doubt this. I do believe that with an addictive parent, or family history, one is at risk, but I know many people with alcoholism in their family and can drink responsibly.

[Tak]

There's a gray area between drinking all the time and being an alcoholic. If you drink a 12pack of beer every night because you can't not do so, you're an alcoholic. If you drink a 12pack of beer every night because Jesus, Red Foxx, and your grandpappy died for your right to do so, are you an alcoholic? Does it make any difference whether you are or not?

[blooming lotus]

on that : total confessin , in china I drink up to 100 ml daily of 45 - 56 % rice wine daily , and because it heats my bowel and moves stuff that probably wouldn't come for days ( if I found any edible food at all recently ) I feel perfectly justified. It is a habit, but I'd trade it for a protein shake and some lemon juice in a minute.



I will need a detox, leave me alone for three days period, but do I qualify ( according your theory) as an alcoholic???

[Serpent]

If you carry on that way, you will. The question is, no matter what excuses you make (bowel movement, etc.) can you stop drinking now and not drink for a solid week? If not, then you're an alcoholic. Remeber, no excuses count. Can you do it or not?

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... do I qualify ( according your theory) as an alcoholic???Based solely on your postings, an emphatic yes ;).

[blooming lotus]

I thought the thing was if you couldn't stop. I guess I could . No, no guess. Of course I could , and would rather, but it'd be a trade -off for worse health so I'm just not prepared to. But, on that note, and because this kungfu training and "health", I have however made other adjustments with viscous lining and times and clear fluids and salts etc so generally, I think the body works as well as possible under the circumstances and the students are stilling finding value from my lessons, so until I get home, this is part of the diet.

yuk, I know, but you do what you need to.

[Tak]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I thought the thing was if you couldn't stop. I guess I could . No, no guess. Of course I could , and would rather, but it'd be a trade -off for worse health so I'm just not prepared to.
You don't know whether you can do something until you do.

But 100mL is like a small glass, so big deal. I'm talking about heavy drinking.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I thought the thing was if you couldn't stop. I guess I could . No, no guess. Of course I could , and would rather, but it'd be a trade -off for worse health so I'm just not prepared to. But, on that note, and because this kungfu training and "health", I have however made other adjustments with viscous lining and times and clear fluids and salts etc so generally, I think the body works as well as possible under the circumstances and the students are stilling finding value from my lessons, so until I get home, this is part of the diet.

yuk, I know, but you do what you need to.
Doesn't matter how you dress it up - that's an excuse.

[Volcano Admim]

we are all going to die

[blooming lotus]

I considered this academiacally and according to what I learnt in my couselling diploma majoring in acohol abuse amongst other things, and I think I remember the defination being something like more than 2 standard drinks more than four times weekly to detriment. Phsychological definitions are often different to oxford definitions, please see congition for example, but on't get mwe started so , so moving on. Can't stop or won't stop, my alcohol consumption is a health benifit??? go sort that logic??!!


later

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I considered this academiacally ...:D You're full of gems. This is almost as good as yesterday's "It's not unsensical ..." :D

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Phsychological definitions are often different to oxford definitions, please see congition for example ...Obviously (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=congition) the definitions are different :(.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Can't stop or won't stop, my alcohol consumption is a health benifit??? go sort that logic??!!What logic? Did I miss something?

[blooming lotus]

oh.. only in the course you didn't take... forget it.

[blooming lotus]

really . don't worry, It's probably similar to the "dimmak is lies meet fantasy theory" you have that in future ( after I retrieve the right ledger ) I will provide you a link to re:- Parisian studies , comparing both, now common medical knowledge from 1800 or so... stay tuned .

[Tak]

Originally posted by Volcano Admim
we are all going to die
I decided not to.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I considered this academiacally and according to what I learnt in my couselling diploma majoring in acohol abuse amongst other things, and I think I remember the defination being something like more than 2 standard drinks more than four times weekly to detriment. Phsychological definitions are often different to oxford definitions, please see congition for example, but on't get mwe started so , so moving on. Can't stop or won't stop, my alcohol consumption is a health benifit??? go sort that logic??!!


later
More excuses. You're an alcoholic.

[blooming lotus]

no. Alcoholism is to detriment and mine's not. If I am, I am though, and it's a sacrifice I make to continue the study and perspective we so desperately need to hear about in the west. I'm reading a great book at the moment by Ken Wilber on integral psychology where he outlines many widely acknowledged conciousness and rational levels and structure systems which he correlates through a vast ref list). You might want to check that out yourself for a professional perspective. Being so evolved yourself, you'll no doubt breeze through it and still take something of value away.

Ps: now about that photo ???

[Serpent]

To detriment is irrelevant. Alcoholism means being unable to quit drinking. How would you, as an alcoholic, know if your drinking was detrimental anyway?

[blooming lotus]

what a silly Q. how would I know!
I told you I am adept at psychology, not that it would take a degree or whathave you to know when you're being destructive to your life or that of any one around you. And health wise, unfortunately for the moment, it is the healthier choice.

As for it being a habit I can't stop, that was a total guess on your part. I've told you and unless you have reading comprehension trouble Serpent, I often go days without any alcohol when eating is not neccessary, at all and have previously, and plan to the minute I get home, go with out any at all again.

So the point we are talking about myself, is for discussions sake that according to the general consensus, if the above are the parameters for addiction, go figure that I don't qualify yet can drink daily. As far as it being a genetic predisposition ( the inablity or lack of intrapersonal skill and desire some have to not stop drinking), I'm still 65 % : 35% in favour of environmental influence on your developement.
I'm reading a great book at the moment on integral psychology and it clearly defines popular school of thought on consciousness and levels of self - awareness and certain behavioural patterns that come from it. If I find anything quotable in less than a few lines, I'll let you know.

[IronFist]

What book? Is it a real, backed by science book, or some hippie book?

[blooming lotus]

hippies have input! :rolleyes:

the book is "integral psychology" by Ken Wilbur and you can find at www.shambhala.com or www.shambalah.com

It's mainly regarding transpersonal evoloutions and understanding but has solid clinical structural models from a range of todays' best psychological practitioners. I'd send it to you or free , but the copy I 'm reading belongs to a colleague.

[bodhitree]

I myself am a drug addict in recovery for over three years. GOng fu has become a positive addiction for me, I also did martial arts before I ever did drugs. I also believe the way to recover is to, and sorry for stealing a Bruce Lee/ Krishnamurti saying but 'find the cause of my own ignorance'. after doing that, doing chemical substances just doesn't seem appealing.

[blooming lotus]

:cool:

[Frogman]

:o
Here we go again you three crack me up. So does that mean I’m on crack right now?

I’ve been addicted to oxygen my entire life. I use to do it just for fun but now I can’t stop. I tried to give it up but I can only go about three to five minutes before I start to get light headed and have even passed out. My doctor says it natural to feel this way when your trying wean yourself. Not sure how this habit started but I doubt I could live without out oxygen, so I will keep breathing. I just hope my mom doesn’t find out about this.
What is your poison Foo?
If your having fun and not hurting anyone who cares. If you are F’ed up your not going to be cured here. Addiction is more a matter of environment if your around it you may get caught up in a bad thing. Just because your parents were hippies won’t make you an addict it might make you slow…


Good luck,
FM
:D

[blooming lotus]

you're a funny guy frog dude, and so right!! If we measure all things on this concept of addiction, A. is addiction really so bad, and how many facets of that do we not only cultivate but are essential to human life??? Are we just addicted to longevity and self - preservation ???

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're a funny guy frog dude, and so right!! If we measure all things on this concept of addiction, A. is addiction really so bad, and how many facets of that do we not only cultivate but are essential to human life??? Are we just addicted to longevity and self - preservation ???
Of course not. bl, you're dumb and Froggy (I hope) is just pulling your chain.

For example, oxygen is essential to life. Alcohol is not, yet some people put themselves into a position where they can't do without it. Addiction is addiction to something you don't need for basic life. It's usually something detrimental.

[blooming lotus]

Usually, but in my case and apparently in the bulk of the worlds' centurians and Russian resisdents it's not. Learn something new every day ha.