Warming Up

[SPJ]

What is the warming up exercise in your MA school?

How does it help?

I have studied Tong Bei Quan since the '70. I kept the warming up or loosening up drills ever since.

Wrist. (Fo Wan Gong)
You flip your hand downward, upward, left and right then rotate clockwise and counterclockwise.

Elbow.
Rotate clockwise and counterclockwise.

Shoulder, waist, knee and hip.

Forward, backward, to the left, to the right, rotate clockwise and counterclockwise.

8 to 16 times in a row.

Shuai Bei Gong (throwing arms). It is unique to Tong Bei. But it helps to loosen all joints and muscles. I did them about 25 min before practicing anything else including Tai Ji.


:)

[SevenStar]

not sure what shuai beo gong is - can you describe it?

other than that, we do all of the above, in addition to neck rotations, ankle rotations, knee rotations, shadow boxing and jumping rope, followed by stretching. After that, we do various calesthenics, like jump squats, squatting a partner (putting him on your shoulders and squatting him), rolls, falls, tumbles, jogging and neck strengthening. We then start the techniques portion.

MT is the same way, minus the tumbling and rolling.

[SPJ]

Due to its unique power generation, Tong Bei has unique sets of balancing and throwing arms exercise.

The power starts from the feet, and the rest of body remains totally relaxed. Most of the force is then stored in the shoulder and unleashed to the hand (palm side or back side). So the leg, waist and back muscles are all involved in transmitting and generation of the power.

It works like a lashing whip. The foot is one end and the hand is the other end of the whip.

All the joints and muscles are all relaxed and relaying the force.

The idea is going far and hitting long. One inch longer is one inch stronger.

So you are not just stretching your arms to punch. You are stretching your whole body to "lash".

You have to see it to know.

The balancing exercise is also very exacting. A lot of standing on one leg punch and kick at the same time.

Several punches and kicks when jumped in the air. In other words, several punches and several kicks in one jump. Although I am too old or not flexible enough to do these anymore.

Cheers.

:cool:

[DragonzRage]

Stretch, jump rope, stretch more, shadowbox

[Premier79]

Where I trained, we did neck, wrist, ankle, knee, shoulder, hip rotations. 4 sets of rabbit hops across the hall, 4 sets of barrel wheel with 10 pushups in between the set, 4 sets of duck walks, 4 sets of piggy back ride, about 50 squats with a partner on your back, about 40 single leg squats, and a lot of of other stuff that I don't remember or can't describe.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Premier79
Where I trained, we did neck, wrist, ankle, knee, shoulder, hip rotations. 4 sets of rabbit hops across the hall, 4 sets of barrel wheel with 10 pushups in between the set, 4 sets of duck walks, 4 sets of piggy back ride, about 50 squats with a partner on your back, about 40 single leg squats, and a lot of of other stuff that I don't remember or can't describe.

These are among the calesthenics that we do.

[SpkyTger]

what is barrel wheel?

[blooming lotus]

stanard where-ever ( especially in shaolin schools ) , is stretches, a run, more stretches and max splits with open palmed , open armed "show me your tri/ bi combo", some drills ( like rounds and sides , basic kicks, form foundations ( like side twist air, side air spin, air spin back etc..........) ( which I su*k at for the record) , then it's onto basic form for level and whatever is appropriate after that relevant to student................ sometimes some bag work, sometimes kicks, sometimes more bwe and stretches, sometimes a lil theory then execute.....................


why.....whatch you doin at yours ?? overworked, underchallenged or just wondering what everyone else is doing?????.all fair reasons...........;) :cool:

[ShaolinTiger00]

followed by stretching.


Stretch, jump rope, stretch more, shadowbox


is stretches, a run, more stretches

silly kfo'ers.. (shame on you 7..)

Warm up. Workout. Stretch.

Stretching before your workout does nothing. in fact it's counter productive. it actually decreases explosive strength.

What? heresy you say! what about preventing an accident? - actually most injuries occur within the normal range of motion and sometimes you're just got gonna get injured whether you're stretched or not. stretching before working out has shown to provide no additional benefit.

Warming up on the other hand.. Warming up is mandatory. first warmup -(motion! but completely different than stretching the limits of range of motion) should closely resemble the task you are about to do. first warming up the joints, then the muscles. so if you're practicing ballet, gymnastics or kungfu then you'd want to possibly do a scaled back version of a form until you've started to work up a good sweat. running, calisthetics etc are also good.

Stretch after you've worked out.

and yet people still don't know how to stretch! Tudor Bompa recomends stretching each muscle 3 times for no less than 50 seconds. anything less will only effect the already highly ellastic muscle body and not the range of motion. anything more will reduce power. (the 50 second period is relative for each person, might be 45-60)

[blooming lotus]

dude ............ strectch every time you get a sec, work out when you got 2................... course you gotta stretch :confused: :confused:

[SPJ]

Yes. There are several stretching or loosening up exercises after Kung Fu practice.

Tai Ji: You walk normally in a big circle. You inhale and exhale evenly. You move your arms in circles. Outward half of the circle you exhale. Inward half you inhale.

Ba Ji: There were a lot horse riding stances and sudden movements of legs. So you created a lot of lactic acids on your leg muscles. You tap the back of your leg with the front of your other foot for as long as you feels like it. Find a table about waist high. Place your foot about waist high and do some stretching. To relax all the muscles after strenuous workout.



:)

[Premier79]

Sorry i put barrel wheel instead of wheel barrel. Let me see if i can explain it clearly. It's when you get in a pushup position and your partner grabs your feet and elevates them. Then, you walk across the hall in that position. Hope that helps.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
dude ............ strectch every time you get a sec, work out when you got 2................... course you gotta stretch :confused: :confused:

you have to stretch, but there's a way to do it. ST is correct.

[SaMantis]

ya gotta stretch ... but not before you've warmed up. However, stretching before doing intensive exercises (i.e. fighting, forms) is still important.

IMO the long, 2-5 minute stretches ppl do to increase flexibility shouldn't be done until the end of the workout (they do take a lot of energy, hence an impact on explosive power), however several 30-second stretching sequences focusing on the muscle groups you plan to use in a workout should be done immediately after warming up to prevent injury.

Here's my warmup, done before class:

Neck, shoulder, wrist, elbow rolls
Waist, knee, ankle rolls
Jump rope / jumping jacks (~5 min.)
Light stretching - toes, calves, thighs, hamstrings, waist & hips, arms, wrists
Arm rotations - 10-20 each side, then both arms

Class: is much like blooming lotus describes.

I've noticed that if I don' t warm up my joints before class they're sore the next day (muscle soreness is a different matter). Maybe I'm just getting old but the rolls & rotations help.

[ShaolinTiger00]

however several 30-second stretching sequences focusing on the muscle groups you plan to use in a workout should be done immediately after warming up to prevent injury.

disagree. sounds like a half-assed warmup.

30 second stretches are worthless.. go warmup the joints and muscles properly.


Maybe I'm just getting old but the rolls & rotations help.

No, you're correct. you've got to get those joints warmed up and get that lubrication flowing. and you do it not by stretching the limit of your movement on cold joints and muscles, but by working them in the normal range of motion in a steadily increasing manner.

[FatherDog]

For me, it depends on which class.

In the sub grappling class, the warmup is usually some sort of grappling-related game/drill. Spinning, swimming/pummeling, holding position, etc. Done with low resistance to start out and increasing as the exercise goes on, to warm up gradually.

In thai boxing we usually warm up with several rounds of shadow with some calisthenics mixed in. Pushups, jump squats, etc between rounds.

In boxing it's usually the same, but more calisthenics and more abwork.

In the wrestling class, there's usually about 20 minutes of running interspersed with jumping jacks, duckwalks, narrow-hands pushups, squats, and rolls. Then takedown drills. Then class starts :D

In the Vale Tudo classes, how we warm up depends on what we're working that day.

Stretching is normally done after class as a cool down. Sometimes it's done after warmups. Generally we stretch similarly to how ST00 indicated.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog
In the sub grappling class, the warmup is usually some sort of grappling-related game/drill. Spinning, swimming/pummeling, holding position, etc. Done with low resistance to start out and increasing as the exercise goes on, to warm up gradually.


we also do those, along with arm drag drills, high crotch drills and usually some other stuff.

[WinterPalm]

In my class we start with jogging in place for five to ten minutes intersperesed with jumps for height. THen we do basic knee rotations, hip stretches like squats for seperation, arm flinges and rotations, stretch backwards, to each side, and then forward. We also do large waist rotations I've never seen anywhere else, as well as drop stance and splits. Then situps, pushups, and nei gong. I've never worked out without warming up and wouldn't want to. THe couple times I've sparred with friends outside of the school without stretching was a big mistake. I feel that when you are doing something as dynamic as Kung Fu, you must stretch all your muscles or you can injure yourself, as far as losing your dynamic strength, I've never noticed and I don't particularily focus on that one aspect. BUt to not stretch before a workout is silly in my opinion.:)

[SaMantis]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

30 second stretches are worthless.. go warmup the joints and muscles properly.

you've got to get those joints warmed up and get that lubrication flowing. and you do it not by stretching the limit of your movement on cold joints and muscles, but by working them in the normal range of motion in a steadily increasing manner.

"Steadily increasing" is the key to stretching IMO, I guess I didn't show that well enough in the warmup I described.

Stretching while completely "cold" is worthless.

A light warmup followed by light stretching, OTOH, prepares the body for a heavy workout. "Light" stretching is how I described: gently stretching the limbs, flexing the waist, etc. You don't go to maximum stretch, just enough to feel a stretch in the muscles and you stay comfortable and relaxed the whole time. Count to 30 slowly, you'd be surprised how many people don't have the patience to hold for even this long. Splits, iron bridge, other intense stretching is NOT done at this point because the body is not fully warmed up.

People who can warmup without stretching and dive right into a 5-mile jog or sparring workout (any style) have my respect, but I know from experience that if I try the same thing, my back will seize up in about 10 seconds. Stretching before a workout prevents this quite nicely.

[blooming lotus]

it's a good idea to stay as "warm" as you can as often as you can for an athlete............... stretching and warming go hand in hand ,,,,,, warm alittle stretch a little ( or vice versa), warm some more , then stretch a little ****her,......and so on throught out your day until both are acheived to max, with ease, then it's just maintenance........................

[joedoe]

From what I understand, being warmed up properly is much more important than stretching before exercise. Stretching is of more value as part of the warm down after exercise.

[blooming lotus]

you warm, you stretch, then during your workout you max your limits...............

by all means stretch to cool and "reset" mucles and tendons.........but loosening them, then working them and before they "set" as they will, is much more important I feel...............

[SevenStar]

joedoe is correct.

[blooming lotus]

and are you saying i'm not???................ however you understand it, but warming and stretch prior and interim load is integral for me....but then, i'm a dedicated callisthenics bunny........ couldn't be without my full range o' movement,, specially in full load workout................... aiming for height, aiming for accuracy and range................

[ShaolinTiger00]

you warm, you stretch, then during your workout you max your limits...............

This is not true. again. stretching before working out is bad! you'll lose power. Anyone who knows plyometrics will immediately understand.

again.. warm up. workout. stretch. The science is quite clear on this guys. This isn't my opinion guys. This is fact!

[Ming Yue]

We do a bunch of interval calesthenics, sometimes plyometrics, then the Pong Lai warmups, then stance training, then workout. There's some stretching in the PL warmup, but for the most part I stretch after class. All in all we get about 20-30 minutes of getting a good sweat on.

[blooming lotus]

you may or may not loose power , but I guess it depends on your discipline................ stength against trained strength, it's not where i'm getting the win ( being all o' 44 - 45 kgs give or take any given day)..........after that...chin na / dim mak in mind, it depends on your flexibilty, your range, ablity to access vital points and exploit them...........and your ability to execute technically.......... hence my focus ............... your strength is no good if you can't land it technically......... do you understand me????

[ShaolinTiger00]

imho, stretching should be considered a workout of it's own and serious consideration should be taken into getting proper stretching after the workouts. too many people bolt right after the class is done and then they wonder why they are twisted up for the next 2-3 days.

[Chang Style Novice]

So how would you go about that - like, an hour of yoga after an hour of sparring and drills or what?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
This is not true. again. stretching before working out is bad! you'll lose power. Anyone who knows plyometrics will immediately understand.

again.. warm up. workout. stretch. The science is quite clear on this guys. This isn't my opinion guys. This is fact!

Yup, I played mid-level competitive volleyball for a while, and this is the way we trained. I found my power and endurance was much better, and stretching in the warm-down meant I wasn't as sore afterwards. And I improved my flexibility, and had less injuries as well.

[ShaolinTiger00]

blooming lotus,

it's not really debatable and again it's not my opinion, just the facts. The fact is that stretching the body of your muscles reduces your explosive power (after all strength is tension.)

so aside from getting no benefit of added range of motion, aside from doing nothing to reduce injury, you're losing explosive strength. what is the plus side?

IMHO- do what makes you feel the best. but the science is there.. maybe if you tried these methods you'd find much better results thaan you're experiencing now. (sometimes we get conditioned to what we've always done.)

[blooming lotus]

of course you gotta stretch on your cool down........... doesn't mean prior is not a good option also....it's fitness and excerise health 101......... if you don't do it, I don't care...have a few "real" things to consider today, so for all your experience :rolleyes: .whatever gets you there...................

peacin out..............

bL

[ShaolinTiger00]

CSN, Stretching has become one of the latest "hot topics" of the Strength & Conditiong crowd and it seems to me that for every "expert" you find you'll get a differnt way to do them. (Do ballistic Stretches! No! Never do ballistic stretches!)

But in general.. the proven results are based upon the work of the legendary Tudor Bompa

"Tudor Bompa is known to many as the man who single-handedly revolutionized Western training methods. After more than forty years of work in the arena of international sports, he's widely considered one of the world's leading specialists when it comes to periodization, planning, peaking, and strength and power lifting. Name your favorite strength coach and very likely he's been strongly influenced by the work of Tudor Bompa." - M. Mahler

Bompa recommends the stretches that I posted above re: 3, 50 second stretches and emphasises precaution in overstretching.

I've got a good reference book at the office and I'll try to list some of the data tomorrow if I'm able.

[Chang Style Novice]

I haven't done a lot of yoga, but 50 seconds seems like a fairly typical time that each posture is held...hmmm...

Of course this Tudor Bompa character also has a funny name. Wouldn't a Four-door Bompa be superior?

[ShaolinTiger00]

doesn't mean prior is not a good option also....it's fitness and excerise health 101

You're not listening my friend.

it isn't a good option. period.

and TONS of people do it improperly.. hell almost every coach, gym teacher, instructor, etc that I've ever had had always made us stretch before working out.

and they were all wrong. They were doing what they were taught etc. etc.. and weren't looking ionto the latest research and studies.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah, in fact I alternate 2 yoga stretches in my stretching, downward & upward dog. for the 3 reps each.

I thought it was noteworthy that Bompa believes that stretching is an important part of strength training.

[SaMantis]

yup, nothin' to fight about, just ideas to ponder. ST00, good point about the body getting conditioned to what we've always done (getting accustomed to the exercise).

I'd be interested in the data, too.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah in fact don't take my word for it, investigate for yourselves.

There was a recent article that made national news a few months ago concerning teh results of a study done on stretching.

the results were conclusive that stretchign made no significant prevention of injury and that most injuries happen within the normal range of motion.

I'll try to find it..

[blooming lotus]

we're not talking uneducated and unexperienced players here.......we here are discussing serious, well learned and dedicated individuals................ and 50 secs per stretch phase sounds ample if you know how to maximise................


whatever training strategy 'll get you there.............. i just know what's working for me and other ex-olypmiads..................

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
me and other ex-olypmiads..................

Here we go again, folks!

[SaMantis]

well, I'm serious & dedicated, not so well learned. Learning well, I hope.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... i just know what's working for me and other ex-olypmiads ...Can you remind us what events you were in again? And how you went?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

whatever training strategy 'll get you there.............. i just know what's working for me and other ex-olypmiads..................

*sigh* I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but...

Okay, eyebrows. When were you an olympian, and in what?

[Chang Style Novice]

Don't start yet! Let me make some popcorn.

[blooming lotus]

no.but my dad and his best friend ( who I 've trained with since I was 9 yrs old were ..or at least qualified through their army service days)...................


kinda think it gives me some insight into combat and a class performance and pyschology no???

Ps.they were runners.fastest in Nz in the 50s' 60s'........ long distance ( my father was the fastest "miler" in country when miles existed, and his best was the sergent major NZ sprint champ.co-incidently, his bro has also taken judo titles at international lvls and my dads' now 59 , known them from 5yrs of age, and me, all my life...............


do you understand why I understand?????

[Ming Yue]

*relocates lawn chair from other thread ...


The trollympic 440 - run entirely under bridges.

[ShaolinTiger00]

BL,

You're free to disagree.

:)

[blooming lotus]

look.............I have lawn chairs galore, and am happy to chat when i got a moment............. If I disagree just listen before you judge.....sweet???

[Chang Style Novice]

Have some popcorn, Ming! I used real butter, and I mashed some roasted garlic into it before I melting.

[Ming Yue]

*scootches over by CSN*

Can't wait to see how this one turns out.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no.but my dad and his best friend ( who I 've trained with since I was 9 yrs old were ..or at least qualified through their army service days)...................


kinda think it gives me some insight into combat and a class performance and pyschology no???

Ps.they were runners.fastest in Nz in the 50s' 60s'........ long distance ( my father was the fastest "miler" in country when miles existed, and his best was the sergent major NZ sprint champ.co-incidently, his bro has also taken judo titles at international lvls and my dads' now 59 , known them from 5yrs of age, and me, all my life...............


do you understand why I understand?????

Well, training methods have changed a lot since the 50s and 60s. A lot of things they did back then are now considered bad practice. My old volleyball coach was an Olympic volleyball player for South Korea, and then the coach of the national team. Even he told us that the old training methods were very different, and not always the best considering what we know now due to the latest research in sports science.

[blooming lotus]

yup......be thinkin bout that garliced popcorn myself :D :p :cool:

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no.but my dad and his best friend ( who I 've trained with since I was 9 yrs old were ..or at least qualified through their army service days)...Well, when you say
Originally posted by blooming lotus
me and other ex-olypmiads ...you're saying you're an ex-olypmiad (sic). Not your father and his best friend were. Anyway, were they ex-olypmiads (sic) or were they at least qualified to be? And what does that mean? Why would you qualify for the Olympics and not go? Or is this another Eyebrows story?


Originally posted by blooming lotus
kinda think it gives me some insight into combat and a class performance and pyschology no???No. How does their running performance give you insight into combat? And how does their experience give you insight?


Originally posted by blooming lotus
do you understand why I understand????? No. You demonstrate time and time again that you understand nothing.

[blooming lotus]

elite fitnes is just that and nothing more ............


saying myself ( maybe I sholuda commaed or;'d there)........ assumes, if your logic is functioning , considering prior chats what I'm saying


f*ck knows the reasons a person's turn down such an offer, and I've spoken about it before........ for my dad it was because he met mom and she needed more than A class training'd let him give........ sad sack, mushed out, but props to him anyway. 1 reason why men are far from my mind.................


the rest.... I'll b freaked.............sorrry dude , couselled out for the day................

[Toby]

So really what you're saying is (a) you're not an ex-olypmiad (sic) and (b) you don't know any ex-olypmiads (sic)? I.e. when you said
Originally posted by blooming lotus
... i just know what's working for me and other ex-olypmiads ...you were lying?

[blooming lotus]

yah...... that's it.......... jerk stick

[Toby]

Well at least you're man enough to admit it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
1 reason why men are far from my mind.................


Weren't you just engaged a few months ago?

[blooming lotus]

and that'd be another ;)

[Ming Yue]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
and that'd be another ;)


reason or lie?

[SevenStar]

:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

That recent study that made national news. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/30/earlyshow/health/main609490.shtml)

ex. (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/index.php?newsid=6880)

more examples of the same stuff (http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=326636)

etc. (http://www.spectatornews.com/news/2004/05/03/Health/Usefulness.Of.Stretching.Questioned-677110.shtml)

I'm trying to find the Bompa stuff. I'll get back to you later with a summary or some paraphrase version. it was several dozen pages of stuff regarding stretching.

[SaMantis]

Good stuff.


The consensus in most of the articles seems to be, "if stretching feels good, do it, but don't expect it to prevent injuries."

So IMO the thing to do is take the research and test it out: how much power you have during the workout when doing ST00's warmup, workout, stretch guideline vs. your own, i.e. warmup, stretch, workout, stretch. If it works, then, bonus! :)

[blooming lotus]

why do we revert back to me every god*am*ned thread??????????????!!!!!!!!!!


anyway......... stretching is invaluable, it won't prevent injury directly, but it wil give you a greater rom, and minimise risk of pulling something outta whack...........


M.Y......... can you move your chair a bit to begin with....., and second........ if you must know, the emotional time and consideration needed for a relationship, just isn't worth the trade -off to considering my health and nxt stage fitness cultivation....... ( that and the fact as*hole turned to be an unsupportive self centred jerk - off when i coulda used a word of consideration through the misscarraige of the baby ( lil life inside o' me) i never wanted but hadta deal with pat......)............


:eek: :D ............anyway........


pass a brewski ??........cheers .........................

:):)..moving on..............( does a hair flick and poses to listen ......)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
why do we revert back to me every god*am*ned thread??????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Because when four or five posters on a thread are completely correct, nine or ten are uninformed and asking questions trying to find out what is correct, and one is completely, utterly, and obviously wrong, the poster that is completely and utterly wrong will naturally attract the most attention.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... if you must know, the emotional time and consideration needed for a relationship, just isn't worth the trade -off to considering my health and nxt stage fitness cultivation...Like the emotional time and consideration needed for a relationship with your daughter just isn't worth the trade-off to considering your health and next stage fitness cultivation?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... ( that and the fact as*hole turned to be an unsupportive self centred jerk - off when i coulda used a word of consideration throughMaybe you could've been a bit longer in the relationship before getting engaged. You came on here and said you were drunk and "thought" you were engaged. Nice way to start a marriage.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
the misscarraige of the baby ( lil life inside o' me) i never wanted but hadta deal with pat ...I guess it's lucky it didn't live and become the 2nd of your unwanted children. Poor little thing. At least you got your crazy ab come cardio/ acro dance workout (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=497474#post497474) in.

[SPJ]

Good links to CDC report.

I usually take the science report on face values.

In the 70's, low fat, low cholesterol.

In the 80's and 90's, cardio workout and eating right, calorie meter or low cal, low sodium.

Nowadays, Wilkon's diet, south diet, high protein but low carb.

I dunno what to eat anymore.

The idea of warming up is to move your joint and muscle in a small but overall scale and level, before you go full scale or a bigger level.

After workout or practice, it is as important to wind down, relax or massage your muscles.

I swim a lot. I usually do not stretch before I swim. I would get crappy cramps.

Normal extension and flexing of muscles a couple of time slowly.

Preventing injury that is a whole different subject.

Good posts and links.

Enjoying the read.

Peace out.

;)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Like the emotional time and consideration needed for a relationship with your daughter just isn't worth the trade-off to considering your health and next stage fitness cultivation?
Maybe you could've been a bit longer in the relationship before getting engaged. You came on here and said you were drunk and "thought" you were engaged. Nice way to start a marriage.I guess it's lucky it didn't live and become the 2nd of your unwanted children. Poor little thing. At least you got your crazy ab come cardio/ acro dance workout (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=497474#post497474) in.

all unfair statements............ truth be told, i didn't want the baby I lost, felt as I did when it died..........and unless you're some right winged, anti - choice lobbiest.I'd just stick your opinion where ever it's fitting............... maturity and compassion noted............


my relationship was a bad choice end of story and no. It is still not worth choosing him nor any other man over ma 'ing lifestyle...:eek: :eek: :eek: .........deal with it.not every chick needs you to comfort and sex her.............. I'll take my qi and routine thx.............

[SifuAbel]

Whats missing here is the major differences between warm up types of flex and stretch, and cool down types of stretch. They are different in intensity and use. It just seems like all this is under a blanket "stretching".

And what perfornmance do you actually want to achieve? What is performing. Are you performing a forward walk/run, a kick, a jump, gymnastics, weight lifting? They all have different performance necessities.

[blooming lotus]

very good points........... but a stretch is still a stretch regardless of goal ....... therefore, prior "stretches" are doubtless a sound idea............... even if it's just your shoulder joints out and long. it'll help mobility......... or splits to move fluid from your legs for extra agility....same jazz really..........

[ShaolinTiger00]

Abel,

I'm not exactly sure how you are distinguishing a "flex" from a stretch, but I think I understand you intention and I agree. ex. swiveling your head, shoulders arms, knees etc. before beginning to jog are perfectly fine.

I believe that the "stretch" described by the CDC and others are the static stretches, relaxation stretches, ballistic stretches, tension-release stretches.. etc.

I totally agree with your second paragraph as to the level of your flexability should also be dictated by your functions. Many Americans do not understand this and always think more flexability is better, when actually your goal should be to have just enough flexability to go past your limits.

ex- Bill superfoot wallace had amazing flexability in his hip flexors. His dead split was so good that he was going beyond a 180 degree split and could actually do a 210 degree split on chairs!! he kept going and going.. when he was at this palce he began to have lots of problems with his hips and even had trouble pulling his kicks back in. - his solution - cut back to no more than 180 degrees. and his problems went away.

A powerlifter does not need the flexability of a gymnast. and the gymnasts hips and abdomen are too flexible for lifting heavy weight. it's about your goals. so go the middle path and get good overall flexability and you'll probably be fine.

speaking of stretching.. anyone read Pavel Tsatsouline's "Relax into stretch."? interesting book if you can get past the "comrade propoganda"

[ShaolinTiger00]

therefore, prior "stretches" are doubtless a sound idea............... even if it's just your shoulder joints out and long. it'll help mobility......... or splits to move fluid from your legs for extra agility

Are you mental or are you trolling?

We've shown you evidence of why you shouldn't stretch before activities and how in fact it does NOT help your mobility, yet you continue in the ignorant direction that you began. It's alright if you do not agree, but to keep denying the facts with no rational basis is just absurd.

[blooming lotus]

directly after you just agreed with the same guy i did :rolleyes:


on stretching books though, what's the best one anyone's read???

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
why do we revert back to me every god*am*ned thread??????????????!!!!!!!!!!


you do a pretty good job of bringing it to yourself - a thread about dim mak goes to your studies and *incorrect* finding that ng mui invented dim mak

a thread on training ends up with how you were a model

a thread on live in schools ends up on your understanding of the english language

a thread on warming up results in you talking about your family's history of olympiads (note the use of the apostrohe there - possession)

a thread where YOU ASK for advice, you end up trying to GIVE advice and also state that you were offered a position as the lead singer of Savage Garden

in a thread about muslce basics, you refer back to the fact that you have a genius level iq, (at least according to the tickle quiz) and that you *supposedly* took out a 450lb samoan.


the list of such examples is endless...

[SaMantis]

I believe that the "stretch" described by the CDC and others are the static stretches, relaxation stretches, ballistic stretches, tension-release stretches.. etc.

Right, that's what I had in mind describing stretches, but I don't know all the terminology, I just think "light" or "heavy" (intense) stretching.

One problem I've had re: flexibility is in splits. Side & front splits were getting low, not quite to the floor, then after reinjuring my back 2 years ago & not doing splits at all for a few months, I lost most of that flexibility. I've gotten the front splits (left & right) back down though not quite where they were at before, however the side split has stayed high. Doesn't matter if I do them during class warmups, or after class even though I'm completely warmed up and more flexible.

OTOH my stances have gotten lower & stronger. So maybe the side split doesn't matter, as long as I don't have to do some crazy isht like jump kick and drop into a split.

[blooming lotus]

by front splits, do you mean north and south??.......... I think for both, I tend to open my gates in my legs ( hip joint, top of thigh) by gradually stretching ****her and ****her at different angles, then giving it another go. I also think it helps to hook your foot over a bar and cling/ hook toes back, then stretch out, and run chest down calf while holding the centre of underside of foot from there. If you get excited, feel free to ease your foot back.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Abel,

I'm not exactly sure how you are distinguishing a "flex" from a stretch, but I think I understand you intention and I agree. ex. swiveling your head, shoulders arms, knees etc. before beginning to jog are perfectly fine.

Flexion and extension is just joint range movement. Shortening and extending the muscle pairs for correct position. Which is the idea of a warm up. We're pretty much on the same page here.



I believe that the "stretch" described by the CDC and others are the static stretches, relaxation stretches, ballistic stretches, tension-release stretches.. etc.

Of the above, ballistic stretching is the worst and most damaging. I wouldn't reccomend them at all. Tension-release and relaxation stretching has given me the best results.




I totally agree with your second paragraph as to the level of your flexability should also be dictated by your functions. Many Americans do not understand this and always think more flexability is better, when actually your goal should be to have just enough flexability to go past your limits.
ex- Bill superfoot wallace had amazing flexability in his hip flexors. His dead split was so good that he was going beyond a 180 degree split and could actually do a 210 degree split on chairs!! he kept going and going.. when he was at this palce he began to have lots of problems with his hips and even had trouble pulling his kicks back in. - his solution - cut back to no more than 180 degrees. and his problems went away.

This is really the difference between flexability and Hyperflexability. Flexability should be about attaining a certain range of motion. I agree it has to a balance between shortening and extending. 180 degrees is enough.



A powerlifter does not need the flexability of a gymnast. and the gymnasts hips and abdomen are too flexible for lifting heavy weight. it's about your goals. so go the middle path and get good overall flexability and you'll probably be fine.

Yes, but the stetching here is refering to a sport specific action, kicking. So the needs of the weight lifter don't apply in totalilty here. In the first half hour of our workout we do various warm ups and exercises which do include light standing stretches here and there after a burn. We then do a short stretching routine before we do our kick drills. I can tell you from experience that this is a usefull stretching. Its action specific. So no, jogging or running doesn't require it; but doing kicks does.

[David Jamieson]

warm up is raise the blood flow, raise the heart rate and raise the breath rate. Actually "warm" the muscles". Limber up is to loosen the joints through ratation etc etc. Long pull stretches are indeed "wrong" before you begin training and are in fact a training segment of their own or should be done at the end of a workout.

It is old school to do long deep stretches prior to a workout because it will simply rob from your workout. Most people who are coming out of kineseology, or physical fitness courses with a degree these days knows this.

light stretching is ok because it is essentially just limbering up, holding the splits for 3 minutes is no good prior to a workout and is a workout by itself. should be kept seperate.

If you watch the olympics over the next couple of weeks, check out the track teams and how they warm up. They save all their energy by using electric blankets to warm the muscles then badabing! They have full energy and full pwoer when they hit that track.

stretching does not "warm" you up, it stretches you and it uses your energy. It will not make your kicks higher or prevent injury from happening. You can be all stretche dout and still get injury from things like hyperextension or incorrect alignment.

anyway, things have changed immensely in the knowledge concerning the workings of the human body even in just the last 10 years.

It wouldn't hurt a lot of old school instructors to get theyselves up to date with some of the realities or what is a correct workout and what is a correct warmup and cool down. Still a lot of jack Lalanes out there hammering away at the wrong thing.

[SifuAbel]

I don't think it is "oldschcool". Nobody I know does a 20 minute floor stretch before they work out. I think its actually quite recent if its a trend at all.

I don't agree that stretching will not help you in your kicking.

Proper flexabilty will help you diminish errors in form. You need to be flexabale to attain proper form in kicking. Good martial arts is good kinesiology. Proper form is key to avoiding injury.

As we saw with wallce, its about being flexable enough.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Of the above, ballistic stretching is the worst and most damaging.

I agree.


We then do a short stretching routine before we do our kick drills.

Why Abel? Stretching the muscle body takes away power. Do you just accept this and go for a goal of a higher yet less powerful kick? (I'm not judging, just guessing your intentions.) again maybe it's what you mean by "short stretching routine" rolling your ankles, knees, hips, touching your toes and doing some squats or duck walks all seem like "warm up" in my mind.

Bompa said something to the effect of "If you have to stretch before performing an excersise, then you're not flexible enough to be doing that yet! and should be working harder on your flexability after the workout to get move benefit."

Why Kung Lek, are we actually agreeing on modern, science based, facts? You really are the Canadian connundrum..
You're correct. warm, tense (not tight)muscles are explosive and fast!

[ShaolinTiger00]

btw, I have to say that this is probably the best thread I've seen on this board in quite a while and I'm really glad to be able to contribute and talk about these things in a polite and civil manner. There are some of us on the board who may disagree to some scale (or completely) but the dialouge is still continuing.

good work you ridiculous pajama wearing, silk reeling, chi blasting, cinematic druken boxing, zen quoting...:D

[SifuAbel]

A lot of power isn't needed for kick drills. Thats more about getting proper form. After the kick drill session, the legs are sufficiently warm and flexable to hit bags, or whatever else.


Yes, agreeing to disagree is the only way to stay productive on the boards.

[blooming lotus]

alot of conflicting theories here......... can we take it to poll???

[David Jamieson]

well abel i have to disagree back. Stretching doesn't do much for kicks, but it's good to stretch.

If you want to kick high, kick high, but kick correctly, if you want to develop kicking power develop balance then develop speed and power. Stretching won't make much of a diff here.

Not saying stretching is bad, just saying it is not the main vehicle to better kicks. Better kicks come from training kicks. In the, in motion, against resistance, against a moving target, against a static target.

[blooming lotus]

KL

so you're saying to achieve good height in say a back kick for example, stretching prior is unneccessary??.......... don't do it often ( disaggree with you that is), but this time, I think I'm going to have to disagree also.

[ShaolinTiger00]

alot of conflicting theories here

No.. there are no theories there is the proper way and then there are alot of improper ways..

It's really that simple in general terms. (the differences that hold validation are really in the details of the proper training methods.)


so you're saying to achieve good height in say a back kick for example, stretching prior is unneccessary??..........

BL, you appear to have a hard time with reading comprehension. perhaps you read to fast. maybe you're just stubborn..

What he is saying is that height should be achieved by proper warm up and the existing flexability you should have been properly doing after your workouts. If you need to stretch before hand, your body isn't ready to performing that exercise. - go back and work on your tension release (isometric stretching) and improve your overall flexability. So you see, no one expects anyonew to start "cold" and be able to do high kicks or deep stances and twists. The warm up is what should give you enough looseness to do this.


A lot of power isn't needed for kick drills. Thats more about getting proper form. After the kick drill session, the legs are sufficiently warm and flexable to hit bags, or whatever else.

Why do you care so much about form before you've even started your warm-up? I'd think that that would be part of your training once you've got a good sweat going and are loose and ready to put form, power and speed together.

[David Jamieson]

Not saying stretching isn't part of the weekly routine, just saying it is detrimental to "live" training, form training, bag training.
stretching as a form of training really should be it's own workout with possibly some other compatible exercises thrown in with it, even chi kungs are good.

But mixing low long stretches with live training either for power, endurance, speed or sparring is detrimental to the overall.

If you stretch before serious kicking drills you will be robbing yourself at the end of your session because you have used energy stretching where you could have used it kicking.

You cannot kiock beyond your limit because you stretched before doing so.

Overall, stretching overtime on the off days or later on a little, will lengthen sinew and muscle but it does not make an immediate difference.

You should warm up and limber up but not use all your energy in deep stretching exercises such as splits or deep singles.

Just a few each side, a light shake up, raise the heart rate, get the breath going and head into that workout.

cheers

[ShaolinTiger00]

will lengthen sinew and muscle

just for clarification..

you'll never lengthen your tendon or ligaments . it can be done but it's almost a freak occurence(it can occur in young children). your tendon & ligaments are made of a material roughly 3x (don't quote me on this one..)as strong as muscle. - any attempt at trying to stretch them would almost always tear muscle severely beforehand. (when someone "tears a tendon - they USUALLY mean they tore the tendon from the muscle)

and when ligament tears it will scarred and weakened - a loose and unstable joint.


btw I was looking for a term when replying to Abel's post about being able to kick high or stretch far from a cold start, which is a very good measure as real flexability - "habitual muscle length"

interestingly (at least to me) it's not really about stetching your muscles as much as it's training your nervous system to accept a new safe range. relaxed stretching is a perfect example of this. you sit with your feet as wide as you can and then you try to go a little ****her till they start to quiver.. and you just wait until your reflex gives up and then you'll be able to go a little further because you waited out the tension reflex

Forced relaxation is a good way to trick your nervous system into giving up early. you reach the end of your range and then you contract the effected muscles with steady tension until it becomes unbearable then release and get the stretch...

[Mr Punch]

So just to 101 it, should my warm-ups for movements involving a range of movement beyond my day-to-day movements, eg knees-from-clinches, be the same as my warm-ups for a session on sprawling, ie starting the same movements (as those to be practised) lighter and in a smaller range and working up, given that with a knee my kneeing leg will not be encountering resistance until it impacts, but with a sprawl all of my limbs will be encountering resistance throughout?

[ShaolinTiger00]

ie starting the same movements (as those to be practised) lighter and in a smaller range and working up,

ding ding ding. Tell 'em what he's won Ted...

ideally warmup should try to closely resemble your workout,.

personally for grappling I think calisthenics and ground work (shrimping, egg beaters, granby rolls, armbar spins, walking breakfalls etc.) are the way to go.

for more aerobic stuff, maybe you'd want to have a good session of jump rope, jogging, shadowboxing (w/ those knees) and put some calisthenics in too like maybe some jumping jacks or mountain climbers, squats

but this is just how I personally like to do things.

Warmup is about just that, getting warm, loose, even starting to get a sweat going and ready to start working out hard.

[ShaolinTiger00]

lmao @ this..

I was in the bookstore last night and saw Royce Gracie's new book "Superfit".

He was advocating this program called the Gracie Stretching Routine, which contained some good stretches!

but he was telling his students to do it right after their warmup and then again after the workout!

Like I was telling BL earlier, there are many people out there (I'd say the majority of people) that don't understand the science behind working out. They just do what they've always done or what they've been told. business as usual.

Hopefully threads like this can start chain reactions though. We see the reposrts and information passed on from leading research and studies and we change our routines. We start talking about it on message boards and to friends and then they start analyzing their routine and they'll pass it on to their freinds and students..

and everyone benefits.

[David Jamieson]

overtime you will stretch sinew, you are correct about ligament though, once you reach a particular age, that stuff is not going anywheer except through it's range of motion as it binds bone joints together.

anyway, thought I would throw this article in here for good measure...just the facts ma'am :P

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/stretching-exercises.html

cheers

[SifuAbel]

A fair question on this thread is " How flexable are you?"

I do think its important to stretch for kick improvemenet. Too many students have seen the benefit for me to argue against it.

You got to start somewhere. I can do a split, cold. But it didn't happen overnight.

I like our method because you are first warming up and doing a good amount of burn in exercises, doing a stretch routine which does leave you loose for a moment , but then retightening through the kick drills. The loose stretch effect doesn't last long. So you are then tightening back from an long postion instead of trying to force through a short one.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
A fair question on this thread is " How flexable are you?"




Another one would be, what the hell is "flexable"?

[SifuAbel]

.................Ignoring koko's troll in order to keep this thread alive.................

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
.................Ignoring koko's troll in order to keep this thread alive.................


That's some good, "flexable" thinking there.

[SifuAbel]

:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

ttt

[ShaolinTiger00]

Abel, Have you had any experience in the forced relaxation stretching that I mentioned prior? If you haven't, I think you'll find that you may be able to push past some limits you or a student may have been having with waiting out the tensing reflex.

[SifuAbel]

Yes definatly, we've used that method. Coordinating breathing is key to this exercise. This is also known as pain threshold.

Tesion/Release is my prefered method. It works on the same basis as the forced relaxation. Coordinating breathing so that one inhales with giving said muscle a bit of tension and then releasing tension on the exhale. With each breath cycle the muscle lets go just a little more. This is of course while still in the stretch. Not getting up and back like ballistic stretching.

This method is what helped my acheive my split. It also helps me maintain it today.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah the tension/release does work, but I think one detraction from it is that it works on a unnatural principle. you "trick" your muscle by waiting it out.. but when you kick or twist you definately do not do those things with muscle reflex that has given up so to speak. The forced tension reflex kind of helps this i think as you're forcing you're reflex to release thru contraction, which is probably a more realistic manner of how you would use the muscle.

just another way to look at it.

[SifuAbel]

I don't think they are that different.

Both methods have the muscle giving up. Plus the effect doesn't last that long anyway. You only get a slight increase over all.

The pre kick stretch is different form the cool down stretch anyway. This prepares you for kicking which is in itself an active stretch.

While Cooling down you spend more time developing the more permanent flexibility.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no.but my dad and his best friend ( who I 've trained with since I was 9 yrs old were ..or at least qualified through their army service days)................... Really, now? What are their names? In which Olympics did they run? I ask because I coach runners and have coached a few ex-Olympians from that time period who are now masters runners.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Like I was telling BL earlier, there are many people out there (I'd say the majority of people) that don't understand the science behind working out. They just do what they've always done or what they've been told. business as usual. You are exactly right on that point. I've had several debates with someone on this board who supposedly has a graduate degree in exercise science and who is still advocating stretching before working out.

The science isn't quite conclusive on this subject and many more controlled studies need to be done. However, there is a large enough body of scientific evidence that most professional level coaches and conditioning specialists are now leaving stretching out of their athletes' warm-up routine.

[blooming lotus]

I've actually done some studies and have personal trained etc myself. I have no idea what you have been taught, in physiology classes nor gongfu lessons, but all my different learnings match. My thoughts, my texts and my last 2 shaolin gongfu shifus. The last was southern shaolin and the former was a monk from shaolin si. I just found some notes from that seminar with that monk, and we certainly did stretch prior. It's going to hard to convince me that it limits power, because I remember the boys packing jing and being impressed. Our stretch seshes were for about 15 ish mins to max capacity and some. In fact, when it came to my splits, the monk even stepped on the top/back of my hip to get me more range in the stretch and more solid in my round. Sorry if it conflicts, but that's what I got.

[SifuAbel]

BL,

To keep the agruement straight you have to note what and when exactly you do your stretches. The arguement here really isn't whether or not you should stretch, but when.

Do you do a full floor stretch BEFORE your warm up?

Do you do a full floor stretch AFTER your warm up?

Do you do lighter positional/standing stretches WITH your warm up?

Do you do a full stretch WHILE cooling down?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I've actually done some studies and have personal trained etc myself. Really now? You've done some studies on the effects of stretching? In which peer reviewed exercise science journals were they published? What were the issues of the journals and the titles of the studies? Who funded the studies? I'm very interested in reviewing your studies.

[SifuAbel]

Another fair question would be, were there any M.D.s or D.O.s conducting the study?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Another fair question would be, were there any M.D.s or D.O.s conducting the study? Most studies of this type are done by exercise scientists who are trained in designing this type of research project, gathering and analyzing the data, etc.

[SifuAbel]

Somehow I would like to see at least one MD on the panal.

[Ming Yue]

this is a really interesting thread. I can't let it die.

The correct has put this thread in the trunk of it's car and is driving down the road unaware of the 18-wheeler with "semantics" printed on the side that is about to run it off the road.


anyway, in your opinion how effective is light positional stretching during the warm up?

[SifuAbel]

Actually, light stretching in a warm up is unavoidable. Unless you intend to walk around like a tin man, and not bend down or move about, you will be stretching something.

And again, what part of you is "performing"? Each activity requires a different conditioning.

[Ming Yue]

mostly legs - hamstrings and hip flexors, and some almost bordering on ballistic. I've found that it has made a difference in my flexibility. (I have freakishly tight hamstrings)

[ShaolinTiger00]

Actually, light stretching in a warm up is unavoidable. Unless you intend to walk around like a tin man, and not bend down or move about, you will be stretching something.

exactly, but just to clarify, when we're talking about "stretching" here, we are talking about trying to stretch a muscle body at the extreme limits of it's movement.

a good warmup & workout is certainly going to get you moving around and active, but chances are you're going to be working your muscels within their normal range of movement. so i think "light stretching" is not really the best way to describe it, and since we know that light stretching itself is not a good thing, maybe we should just call it part of the warmup?

make sense?

[ShaolinTiger00]

tight hamstrings + ballistic stretching = *cringe*

try tension release stretches!

[Ming Yue]

not crazy bouncing, much more like tension release, actually...

[SifuAbel]

"but chances are you're going to be working your muscels within their normal range of movement."

This is a good place to start. Kicking is not in the same muscle range as walking or running. Especailly on the hamstrings. If you do nothing but tightening exercises on the hamstrings and you don't losen them a bit, you will hurt yourself on the kick.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most studies of this type are done by exercise scientists who are trained in designing this type of research project, gathering and analyzing the data, etc.

no.... gathering and analysing is my own specialty.... kinda like what we all do here but with real information (-) trolling and need to interact. And no funny guy, too busy too often to register findings anywhere but here and in own related circles.

Sifu Abel: I am always stretching this or that , but directly prior a workout, I usually give a good medium to heavy stretch to anything I intend to use, and afterward max out at limit. Light stretches I usually reserve for greasing my groove throughout the day or complimentary to non-pre - work muscle groups prior sesh if time allows.

[FatherDog]

Hush, bl. Adults are talking now.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no.... gathering and analysing is my own specialty.... kinda like what we all do here but with real information (-) trolling and need to interact. And no funny guy, too busy too often to register findings anywhere but here and in own related circles. Too busy to submit your fiondings anywhere but here? OK, then... let's do it here.

What specific aspects of stretching have you studied? How many controlled studies have you done? What were the sizes of the subject groups? How long was each study? What procedures did you use to assign subjects? Did you randomize your subject selection? What were your control groups? What statistical analysis did you do? What was the ANOVA? What were the levels of significance, if any in each study?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Hush, bl. Adults are talking now.

- new signature line.

*awaits bl's response to kf's post*

[SaMantis]

Light stretches I usually reserve for greasing my groove throughout the day

um ... that's some sort of Aussie slang or something?



/sends the 18-wheeler of semantics careening off the road with dozens of leather-clad postapocalyptic gangsters dangling from the side while the correct makes a fast getaway to the land of milk and honey .../

[ShaolinTiger00]

grease the groove - is Tsatsouline speak for building a neuro-muscular path "memory" ex. drop and pump out 20 pushups all throughout the day. stop before it gets difficult.

before you know it you'll become a push up cranking machine because you've programmed your muscles and to do this excersise so well.

It's not anything new, common sense. ex.
You chop wood = you get good at chopping wood! You practice the guitar = you get good at playing the guitar.

[Ming Yue]

Unfortunately, the truck bounces off the guardrail of knifefighter's post, shaking the gangsters off and narrowly missing ShaolinTiger, who is standing on the shoulder digging the grave for his own thread while everyone watches in grisly anticipation of the crash.

[SaMantis]

I've been trying out the "warmup first, stretch after" method for just about a week now, so I haven't seen any dramatic gains in energy (probably too soon for that anyway) but I haven't had anything negative happen, either.

Thought my legs would cramp up during the afternoon jog from not stretching, but that didn't happen. So, I certainly can't refute the studies.


/meantime, the plucky, half-feral kid in the passenger seat regains control of the 18-wheeler of semantics and swerves it back onto the road, aiming directly for the back end of the correct, which has stopped briefly for a sandwich at Louie's Extended Metaphor 24-Hour Truck Plaza./

[Ming Yue]

mmmm the similes at that place are delicious.

[ShaolinTiger00]

for my money, nothing kicks off my warmup routine like jumping jacks. not half -assed barely moving quick ones, I'm talking big , full range jumping jacks. I'll start with the obligatory rolling of the neck, shoulders, knees, ankles, hips, and then crank out about 60-80 jumping jacks until I'm right at the brink of a sweat and my heartrate and breath are climbing. then I can either start running or continue with more calisthenics..

but that's my body. I'm like an old diesel engine. I need a good hard warmup before I'm ready to go balls to the wall.

To quote Danny Glover, "I'm getting too old for this Shlt.."

:D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
for my money, nothing kicks off my warmup routine like jumping jacks. not half -assed barely moving quick ones, I'm talking big , full range jumping jacks. I'll start with the obligatory rolling of the neck, shoulders, knees, ankles, hips, and then crank out about 60-80 jumping jacks until I'm right at the brink of a sweat and my heartrate and breath are climbing. then I can either start running or continue with more calisthenics..

but that's my body. I'm like an old diesel engine. I need a good hard warmup before I'm ready to go balls to the wall.

To quote Danny Glover, "I'm getting too old for this Shlt.."

:D

Thats been the beginning of our school routine for decades.

Viva Kung fu!!

[blooming lotus]

Where do I start??


Knife fighter: all I can tell you is that I've tested different age, skill and lifestyle or culture and my own mechanics against each other and drawn some conclusions.

MK: if you're sick or injured, of course going lighter 'll make you feel stronger and recover better :rolleyes: :p

ST: and Glover thinks he's feeling the grey creep???........... dong, but doesn't mean we should let up ha? Do what you can as best you can I feel. ni dong bu dong??

each to each circumstance : and none the same: training is an indivudual persuit.... dong ma??

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Too busy to submit your fiondings anywhere but here? OK, then... let's do it here.

What specific aspects of stretching have you studied? How many controlled studies have you done? What were the sizes of the subject groups? How long was each study? What procedures did you use to assign subjects? Did you randomize your subject selection? What were your control groups? What statistical analysis did you do? What was the ANOVA? What were the levels of significance, if any in each study?

surely you don't expect answers...

[Knifefighter]

Do you think Blooming Lotus is actually a guy posting as a female in an attempt to make women appear to be stupid?

[rubthebuddha]

no, as i've seen similar behavior from all three genders (including the undefined "norther practioner" gender). :D

[norther practitioner]

I'm a pimp.. get it right


and yes, that is a gender

seperate class all together, 'cause I can use a fan to get the ladies...

[rubthebuddha]

any chick that likes a dude with a fan is like that chick from "bachelor party" who digs on the short, scrawny dude.










"she pees standing up!" :eek: :mad: :D

[norther practitioner]

:rolleyes:


choo gots no idea....


some people pay extra for that stuff....

[blooming lotus]

write me off and too be honest , don't give half 2 shytes..........at the end of the day I know whaytI do and you what you do, but I'd pit mine against yours ( ego and all ) any day. you're a bunch of very little wan'*s for far as I'm concerned..........tug it some more for all the good your conversation does here :rolleyes: :mad:

if you need the chick bash vote - go ahead and take it .in real life, i'
I'd kick your trolling as*es if need presented (courstseys and bows while rolling eyes)

glad to see you're so brave behind a key board wan*- shi*s!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

grow the mother f*ck up already little ens..........

[Kaitain(UK)]

BL.

Go to school and learn to read, write and comprehend the language you keep butchering.
Get a lawyer and sue your therapist because it clearly didn't help you.
Go to a specialist in pathological lying and see if you can get some help there.

You can't deal with being wrong; when proven so you never grace the thread again.

When you insist that you're correct, despite the evidence provided, you create fictional evidence to support your point. This in turn is debunked and your response is that of a child, "I know I'm right".

You respond with tales of how you'd beat someone up face to face and then accuse others of being immature!

Through it all you consistently portray your one true skill - delusional martyrdom.

You have been offered good-natured advice from various members of this board; unfortunately, none of it penetrates the impreganable aura of delusion you have hidden within.

On this board you are nothing more than a collection of the worst failings of humanity.

For your own mental health, read through your contributions to this board from a truly objective position and ask yourself, "Why am I here? What am I achieving?".

[Serpent]

blooming lotus

I rag on you a lot, because you're an idiot and it's fun to rag on idiots.

However, have you noticed how more and more people are starting to tell you the same things that we've been saying all along? The more you post, the more forum members are exposed to your "thoughts" and then subsequently more and more of them have felt obliged to tell you the same thing.

You've heard it over and over again from lots of different people on these boards. All these people are from different disciplines, different countries, they are different ages and genders.

So, what can we glean from this fact?

1. Everybody here is in a massive conspiracy to get at you for some personal reason;

or

2. They are all agreeing, independantly, about you and some of the nicer ones are trying to help.

Which do you think it is? Really?

(BTW - good post Kaitan(UK). Really good post).

[SifuAbel]

Ok now, Lets not start flaming. This thread has had a good attitude for a change, so lets try to keep it for once.


And kaitan, to be fair, EVERYBODY here insists that they are right.

[Kaitain(UK)]

It's as much to do with ongoing behaviour and attitude Abel - I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing (that's the point of discussion). I have a problem with people behaving in the manner described in my last post.

The reason BL is being flamed is because she consistently displays the same behaviours in _every_ thread she pollutes. Reason and logic have not worked on her, so maybe she will get the message (as Serpent said - enough people are sick of it) by overt messages.

Yes this is a great thread, added to in no way by BL. I have gained a lot of useful information from the people who provided information to help others.

Anyway, easiest thing for me is to hit ignore - I hate to do it because I like to help people, rather than just to point out their faults (God knows we all have them - just not in such abundance). I tried and got tired - if BL isn't a troll then she should be the model upon which all trolls base themselves.

Apologies if I've added to the pollution in this otherwise beneficial thread.

Paul

[SaMantis]

sifu Abel has b*tch-slapped the simile sandwich out of the correct's mouth and regained control, speeding away from the impending head-on collision of the 18-wheeler of semantics and the runaway freight train of flaming retardation.

[blooming lotus]

If I leave a thread it's because further discussion is fruitless and wastes my time.

I also see you as silly as you do me??....go figure....


you giving me "Help"?? Serpent??..... To do what???!!!?? .... you big hero... ragging on "idiots" is fun ha??....glad not to take that philosophy into my class when I look at the face of a poor dejected struggler and what should I do??...point , laugh and make him / her cry and feel worse ??

you big playground supremist bully :rolleyes:

but of course, compared to the rest of of the world you yourself are all that and some ha??:rolleyes:

what a nice guy / gal you show yourself to be by anyone who's not scared enough to forget you had your own issues !! Great example you set teacher / great example :mad:

[Toby]

*Must ... resist ...*

I'll let someone else field this one for a change. Besides, it's addressed to Serp.

[blooming lotus]

because as we all know nasty = cool :rolleyes: jerks :mad: .I'd like you to tell that to your kid when he / she makes his or her own mistakes in growing and learning........ need the popularity vote over the need to be benificent ha??.well fair enough, you can be needy yourself and I won't even judge you for it :eek: :cool:

[Toby]

*Tries ... to ... resist*

Talking about kids ...

*Restrains ... self*

[blooming lotus]

what a great adult display of self control, like un-nastiness deserves a medal :mad: . some boys 'll just never grown beyond their ego and need for approval over "doing the right thing"......... don't worry , some of us 'll treat you well anyway ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

you giving me "Help"?? Serpent??..... To do what???!!!?? .... you big hero... ragging on "idiots" is fun ha??....glad not to take that philosophy into my class when I look at the face of a poor dejected struggler and what should I do??...point , laugh and make him / her cry and feel worse ??

you big playground supremist bully :rolleyes:

No, because you see there's a difference here.

The fact that you even consider the student you cited as an idiot is really telling of your demeanour.

The "poor dejected struggler" is currently ignorant and desperate to learn. With instruction in the correct ways he will learn and be no longer ignorant.

You, on the other hand, refuse to learn, refuse to accept when you're wrong and when proven wrong you simply spit the dummy and act like a three year old. (Have you had any experience with three year olds or did you abandon your daughter for selfish reasons before she was three?)

So you see, he's ignorant and trying to learn, where you are an idiot.

That's why it's fun to rag on idiots. He's not one and the fact that you consider him one only makes you more of one.

Ah, such fun!

[blooming lotus]

isn't it just...........

either way Serpent..........I'm a nice chick and I really do consider all my kids / students capable regardless of what I'm seeing at the present......... what ever you need to say to yourself.

peace out ha;)

[Serpent]

Idiot.

[blooming lotus]

I'm sorry, but the only way I understand your own need to insult, is by attributing it to your own insecurity and or lack of benevolance. Really, but back to my "integral psychology " book...........

admit you're human. it really is okay you know

[blooming lotus]

Ps: also went back home and thought about this a lil, and if as you say Serpent, that you are trying to teach me when you make the statements you do in the way you do, Here at esl China, we like to teach using a concept called positive reinforcement as opposed to berate, degrade a student - get them feeling really low and continue kick them as hard as you can until they agree to accept your viewpoint.


One method, but we generally find honey works much much better than vinegar, only our thoughts though ;)

[Toby]

People try, but you generally choose to ignore facts. Here's a hypothetical situation for you - suppose you were trying to teach your students something and they kept saying "Are you sure? My experience tells me you're wrong. I don't have any facts or references to back me up, but I'm gunna have to say you're wrong and I'm right." You present them with evidence and try to educate them and they say, "No, sorry, I'm logicising it and it just doesn't make sense. Those references you cite are all wrong, even though they all agree with each other - I'm right."

Can you see how that might **** you off a bit?

[blooming lotus]

this has happened, and I allow free thinking and individual beilief, so I told them , for the purpose of this discussion , being that it's my classroom ( :D :D ) we will assume I am correct. If you have further doubt, please research on your own time or understand your opinion is contraversial. Anger still unneccessary , nor degradation :eek: :confused:

[Toby]

And you extend that same assumption to these forums, evidently. Despite majority opposition, peer-reviewed evidence and cold hard facts all in contrast to your assumptions.

[blooming lotus]

what same assumptions. I understand that you think differently about certain issues, but I'm either really happy with my own original source or if I have any doubt, I'll reconfirm with more searches and review studies. In fact there's been so many of those here , I told you, you've all inspired me to take it a little ****her and make it a phd. I need to back track and follow your logic from go. Besides, have a few theories I'd like to run by a class or proffessor anyway. So there you have it, sometimes wrong, but happy to re-learn or review. But do bear in mind, sometimes people will think differently. That's life .. I'm good with it.

[Toby]

These assumptions:
Originally posted by blooming lotus
... we will assume I am correct.

[Knifefighter]

Methinks Blooming Lotus's "students" are as much a figment of her imagination as the rest of her "facts".

[blooming lotus]

ah dude!! can we just do sanity and reality for a mo?? for gadds sake this gets boring

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what same assumptions. I understand that you think differently about certain issues

Where "differently" == "correctly"


but I'm either really happy with my own original source

Which you will, of course, neglect to cite.


or if I have any doubt, I'll reconfirm with more searches and review studies.

ie, "I'm sure I'm right, but I'll get back to you on that proof thing" *subject is never discussed again*


So there you have it, sometimes wrong, but happy to re-learn or review.

But never to admit it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

ttt

aside from the BL thread's and the subsequent roasting, this thread had some very good information that kf'ers should see and apply!

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Yes, indeed.

:cool:

[Toby]

:mad: ST00, that was like a bad acid flashback! :p


Please don't do it again :).