Martial rib training for health???

[Tame The Tiger]

I was wondering what other people’s experiences or thoughts were of dip gwut gung for health? Obviously, if done incorrectly or pushed along too rapidly before the body is able to adjust, it can be dangerous. The training is clearly designed for martial purposes, yet I wonder if it also has health benefits?

My reasoning goes like this. One of the many aims of normal chi kung is to utilise abdominal breathing. As people age the centre of breathing rises from the abdomen (as a child) to the top of the chest (in the elderly). Normal chi kung aims to reverse this by abdominal breathing, thus slowing down the aging process. Part of the problem stems from the fact that as people age they lose flexibility. You may or may not have observed that in many elderly people even though they still retain a degree of strength and flexibility in their arms, their chest seems fused together into a barrel shape that doesn’t move. Dip gwut gung should prevent this even into advanced age. There would be a better supply of blood to the lungs and heart, and a smoother flow of energy. The ribs themselves would be healthier for the same reasons, and I may be wrong on this, but isn’t the marrow in the ribs a major supplier of white blood cells? That would also boost the immune system.

Also, one of the benefits of normal chi kung is the massaging of internal organs (stomach, liver spleen etc) by the use of abdominal breathing. Dip gwut gung uses more pressure and gives a stronger massage.

These are just my thoughts. Perhaps rib training is taking things too far to the extreme to be good for health. What do other people think?

[blooming lotus]

I've been looking at my own bone density recently myself, and am considering improving it by hitting marrow quality, though looking nutritionally at blood quality etc at the moment ........



to answer your question, yes, of course , oxygen and immunity are factors of anywhere there's blood...........

I would like to hear more about dip gwut gung though, I'm following your logic, but can you tell us how exactly that goes???

[David]

I read this earlier today and since then I’ve been wondering if dip gwut gung could be considered a chi gung (hay gung) exercise…

I think you have to be fit and healthy before you start something like dip gwut gung whereas with many chi gung exercises, doing them whilst weak and/or ill is the most important time to do them.

AFAIK new students shouldn't be doing dgg regularly or unsupervised, and when they do it, it should be done only a little.

Anyway, you're never going to convince anybody outside of shorthand styles to train it, partly because it's so alien and partly because it's so awkward to get right.

Rgds,
David

[blooming lotus]

any qi cultivation exercise 'll benifit an illed person more than a healthy one, maintenance aside............. qigong and such is perceived as esoteric, so it's a hard sell at the best of times..........

still interested though......have over 15 yrs of qigong practioning but can someone explain your method pls...... really, it's a new term for me.............

cheers..........

[David]

I was leaving that chore to TameTheTiger ;).

There are several specific Rib Bone Power (Dip Gwut Gung) exercises beyond the style's general emphasis on ribs.

What it boils down to is opening and closing of the rib cage, not with the emphasis on the diaphragm (I think that's emphasised elsewhere), but with all the ribs' own muscles as well as those attached to the spine and the sternum. The ribs can open and close all together, or front, back, left and right separately.

Through squeezing the ribs in various ways and performing various techniques and actions while holding the squeeze, you develop strength, good bones and an advanced method of linkage so that your hands and feet can derive (short) power from the ribs' movements.

I've only recently been able to achieve that linkage and have found it a marvellous ingredient - when my bridge arm is pushed against, my ribs take the pressure and float the offenders force upwards, not only that but the force that my ribs have 'absorbed' can be released back at them at any moment. Well, that's the ideal, I'm still not 'fluent' in this method, let alone powerful in it.

It doesn't sound much like chi gung until you start using the results of it and then it becomes analogous to the hidden strengths of tai chi. It also bears on golden bell (iron shirt) development.

Corrections etc welcome :)

Rgds,
David

[Tame The Tiger]

I think David more or less summed up dip gwut gung training. It's a difficult thing to explain and must be felt to be understood, but basically it adds power to a punch and increases your ability to absorb a blow yourself. People don't think of the ribs as something that moves, but they open and close a little each time you breathe. This natural tendancy is controlled and further developed by training. The ribs can be closed together so they form an almost solid single bone structure. This adds protection to the internal organs, but trained too hard or to fast can cause damage...

Putting pressure on bones is no different from putting pressure on other parts of the body. If you walk around barefoot a lot, the soles become hardened. If you dig with a shovel a lot, you get callouses on your hand. If you do a lot of dip gwut gung, your rib bones become stronger as well as more flexible. The same principle applies to them all, it's just that bones are harder to feel and take longer to change.

[blooming lotus]

dong, but if you eat tissue solidifying material, your feet"ll cope better.............. hmm.......... that sounds silly doesn't it......

anything I can do to get my bones healthier and stronger from the inside i'll take thanks...... ( these traditional chinese sand bags are playing havoc on my frame and the train rides from hell don't help a great deal either).... like I said, marrow improvement nutritionally is what I'm exploring at present.

when I asked, really I wanted a clip or at min to know the breathing tech and where we're directing chi........eg : what meridians and how???

teach me something.........please ;) :D

[Tame The Tiger]

I don't think there are any clips out there anywhere of Dip Gwut Gung. Very little Tong Long at all really which is a pity. If you visit the Chinese gifts4 you website and look under the video section I think there is a rib training video for sale by Master Paul Whitrod. If there is a particular meridian or acupoint to concentrate on, I havn't been taught it. Generally, people concentrate on the ribs themselves, especially on a line from under the armpits downwards, but not on an actual meridian (although there are some there of course). Other people may have been taught differently???

[blooming lotus]

but what is unique or different about it comparitively to other qigongs???

[David]

Originally posted by David
I’ve been wondering if dip gwut gung could be considered a chi gung (hay gung) exercise…
:D

[Tame The Tiger]

It's different from normal chi kung because the ribs open and close. Not the opening and closing you get with normal breathing, but something far more pronounced. There is movement of the ribs beyond the range of what is gennerally possible. It only becomes possible after many months (years) of special training.

To me, it's chi kung, because the breathing is intricately linked with the rib work.

[blooming lotus]

I have grown accustomed to pulling in through my ribs ( as opposed to sucking stomache in and exposing them) as I breathe both usually and throughtout exercise , and have practiced various qigongs for many yrs.......... I'm sorry, I just still can't see your highlighting point.

[David]

It can be seen in light of Shaolin bone and sinew transformation exercises, I suppose. As such, it rates attention at least as much as any purely soft chi gung.

Rgds,
David

[blooming lotus]

I do understand various qigong breathing styles and methods, but I'm just not quite clear on exactly what you're describing. Thanks for trying anyway. Meiguanxie ( doesn't matter)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I've been looking at my own bone density recently myself, and am considering improving it by hitting marrow quality, though looking nutritionally at blood quality etc at the moment ........



to answer your question, yes, of course , oxygen and immunity are factors of anywhere there's blood...........

I would like to hear more about dip gwut gung though, I'm following your logic, but can you tell us how exactly that goes???

on this though, I was on the train for a day and some recently, 4 days in total travel, and met an orthopedic surgeon in the chinese army. We had a few chats about work, health and fitness and I sincerely believe I'm onto something, escpecially when you consider that it is already a fairly popular piece of knowledge that you should take calcium and so on. I'm sure I can aid absorbtion and carriers and other complimentary facets to max out density this way by, what I'm sure will be only a few very simple dietary adjustments, but I'll let you know if I reach a solid conclusion.

[David]

Calcium is a toxin in your bloodstream. One of your skeleton's functions is to remove harmful levels of calcium from the blood and then to slowly release it at low levels for disposal in urine.

High bone density from calcium intake merely shows that the bones are working themselves to exhaustion to stop you poisoning yourself.

This calcium uptake/release process will wear your bones out.

Calcium is not something you even need to think about if you eat a balanced diet.

Bone density is increased sensibly by putting increased demands on the bones in terms of their other function - that of bearing physical loads and stress.

Rgds,
David

[blooming lotus]

calcium is one thing that I'm considering and other nutrients alongside.

Ps. are you telling me you're going against yrs and yrs of popular advice and suggesting calcium is you shouldn't consider??

Why are older people getting such bone breaks and frailties? Why all throughout western cultures on tv does the health board advocate we give ourselves and our children a certain amount of dairy?? I think It's because we need it and aren't getting enough.

and yourself?

[David]

As not seen on TV (http://www.notmilk.com)

What made the advice 'popular'? 1950's advertising paid for by governments at the behest of the Dairy lobby?

Research showing that bones got denser with more calcium only shows half the story - the important half was left out.

Think of all the mammalian species in the world. How many of them drink milk? Go figure, as they say.

Next you'll be experimenting with Mars Corporation chocolate products as a good source of 'supplemental sugar'. ;)

Rgds,
David

[Tame The Tiger]

I don't know much about the biochemistry of calcium, but I think it's hard to beat a well balanced diet. Not too much of anything, and not too little. I think there is also an age thing happening there. Calcium requirements are greater for growing bones than mature bones.

I agree that excercise that puts stress on bones is good for their density (health), so I always try and balance soft and hard chi kungs. The word "balance" is central to eveything.

I also like to drink my (low fat milk) hot chocollates with marshmellows. The perfect balance!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by David
As not seen on TV (http://www.notmilk.com)

What made the advice 'popular'? 1950's advertising paid for by governments at the behest of the Dairy lobby?

Research showing that bones got denser with more calcium only shows half the story - the important half was left out.

Think of all the mammalian species in the world. How many of them drink milk? Go figure, as they say.

Next you'll be experimenting with Mars Corporation chocolate products as a good source of 'supplemental sugar'. ;)

Rgds,
David

actually, i did hear that Jet li doesn't often ( or didn't when in China) restore his own viscous so often because fresh miljkk here is sometimes hard to come by........ relevance to density . not sure.........

Ps: Marsbars are a good source of a serious sugar and fat when necc. ;) :D :cool: