Kali/Arnis/Esrima - do we need it?

[mun hung]

I've noticed alot of Organizations/Federations/schools that teach Kali/Arnis/Escrima along with Wing Chun. Should they be taught together with Wing Chun as one complete art? Wing Chun has it's own weapons - so why go with Kali/Arnis/Escrima? Are their principals and theories close enough to our own? Please explain why we should or should'nt.

[TjD]

i think wing chun has everything i need to make me a total badass :) mixing it with other theories/styles will only water it down and make it more difficult to learn (its hard enough already!)

peace
trav

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

[kj]

What is the intended difference between the first and third choices in the poll?

TIA,
- kj

[mun hung]

Oops! I'm sorry. I know they sound the same. The first choice is meant for WC purists who feel that WC weapons are enough.

The third is meant for people who do have an interest in the Fillipino arts, but don't feel that they should be trained at the same time.

Sorry about that. :)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Wing Chun, in my opinion has everything that one needs in order to be a complete fighter. That is, the theories and concepts found within the system are there and enable this to be a complete style.

However, many of those teaching have not completed the system. Or, they have only completed the system superficially. What I mean by this is that many people learn but do not master the art. In order to truly master, and therefore be able to utilize, the weapons requires an incredable amount of time, effort and dedication. It is far more than simply knowing the "form". One must have the foundation that goes along with the form and then learn the applications as well. Prior to learning the long pole there are a number of empty-hand exercises which aim to develope stance and structure. Without this underlying foundation one will find his application of the pole lacking. Same with the knives. Unfortuneately, not many poeple truly learned the weapons and thus it is already a distilled version when taught to the next generation. Now, I am not saying that this is the case for everyone, some are fortunate enough to have Sifus' who truly know what they are doing, but I feel it is safe to say that the majority of people teaching have not fully mastered the system, for whatever reason. No insult or slight just an observation based on personal experience.

I have studied Kali/Escrima/Arnis whatever you wish to call it. I have found many of the concepts to be similiar to Wing Chun. However, they are two seperate and distinct arts. If one wishes to incorporate theories from one into the other then I believe it can be done, provided one has a strong foundation in his chosen or core art first. When I do the sticks I do it from a Wing Chun perspective and it looks somewhat different then some of my fellow partners doing sticks. However it works.

Your question is about whether the two should be taught together as one art; I do not feel that Wing Chun needs anything else to add to it. However, I also feel that the theories of Kali are close enough to bring some benefit to your Wing Chun. If you look at history you will find that just about every art out there started out as one thing and then as time and ones needs evolved, other things were added to it. A warrior of the past could not concern himself with petty stylistic differences. His concern was what would enable him to survive! Still, he or she for you ladies ;), had a strong foundation in his own core art before trying to incorporate other things into his system. This is where many of us today make a common mistake. We do not put in the time and effort to truly learn our own system before deciding to try and learn something new. Maybe we try to learn some type of Chin Na because we feel the need or we like the idea of controlling someone without having to resort to hurting them. So we go out and learn something to enable us to control an opponent. However, if we truly learned our art first we might discover that the Chin Na was already there just waiting for us. I know Wing Chun, mine at least :p, has throws and Chin Na and, to a lesser extent, some groundfighting. I do not need to look outside of my art to find these things. However, upon looking at another art my eyes have been opened to what was there in Wing Chun. In other words, my experience in Judo has allowed me to see the possibility for disrupting an opponents balance and throw him to the ground, using nothing but what is within Wing Chun. Doubtless I would have eventually stumbled onto this but it was my previous time in Judo which allowed me to see it much quicker.

There are stories of Wing Chun masters meeting up with other systems and winning. One such story is of Sum Nung meeting up with an Arnis person. Sum Nung took his sticks away from him and told him to practice harder, or so the story goes ;) He used Wing Chun knife techniques. However, I feel it safe to say Sum Nung is the exception rather then the rule. Kali people learn to fight with a weapon from day one. They learn to incorporate the theories behind the sticks and knife to the empty-hand. Wing Chun takes the other route and starts with the hands. Yet, both share very similiar approaches in terms of theories and even footwork.

Sometimes, we put blinders on ourselves and impose our own limitations based on what we believe the art should be. We become the slave to the art rather than its master. Wing Chun is a very viable combat system. It has incorporated things in the past, the long pole was not an original part of the system. The pole was "modified" to suite Wing Chun. It was done because at that time it was needed. If one incorporates Kali principles, not the art itself, into Wing Chun I don't see why that would hurt the system. Again, provided the person doing this had a strong foundation in the system and a good understanding of the concetps which make Wing Chun what it is.

I know several people who teach Wing Chun, to include the weapons. I don't know too many that could use the weapons for real. I know many people who do Kali. Just about all of them can use their weapons for real. If we approached our "traditional" weapons in Wing Chun with the same intensity as those doing Kali then there would be no need to incorporate anything else. However, if you are not fortunate enough to have a master who can apply the weapons then learning Kali, after mastery of the Wing Chun system, certainly could be of benefit.

One last thing, Kali has the same problems as Wing Chun. There are those doing Kali who could not use their art either. It is less about the art and more about the person and method of training.

I don't know if this was of any benefit or not. I hope that it was.

Peace,

Dave

[Armin]

Hi Mun Hung!

Ok, I guess the question is, why does anybody (or doesn't) train Eskrima along with Wing Chun.

In my case, the answer is very easy: I'm spending a lot of time training Wing Chun - it's a passion. But sometimes I get the need of doing something different or like having a "hobby" along to Wing Chun - that's Eskrima. Sometimes Eskrima is a way to get my head free.

BTW: If you want to train, how to defend (weaponless) against knife- or stick-attacks, you better train with someone who's able to use his weapon. Of course, it could be another style, too, like Kobudo, Pentjak Silat or Kalarippayat, but over here it's easier to find a good Eskrima/Kali-school.


Armin.

[mun hung]

What you choose to practice along with Wing Chun is your business, but let me ask you this - have you learned the Wing Chun weapons yet? If not, should you learn Escrima first without knowing what WC weapons are about?

[Armin]

Hi Mun Hung!

Did I learn the Wing Chun weapons? Hm, let me put it like this: I trained them - I didn't learn them already (in a way of not being able to use them "wing chunish").

Should I learn Eskrima parallel to Wing Chun (weapons)? Why not, as long as I strictly seperate between them (at least in training)?

I see it like this: In training I perform the "true and clear" art, without any influences from other styles. All the stuff I learn from other stylists helps me (sometimes) to understand why we do some things we do. On the other side I definitely use all the stuff I've learned (in Wing Chun, Eskrima, Karate, Kempo, Shaolin, whatever) as a personal "style" on the street - I do whatever fits and is usefull at the moment. BUT: Wing Chun and its principles is always the basis of what I perform.

BTW: I don't do cross-training because I have the feeling of something missing. I won't even call it cross-training, I'd say it's a kind of "informative sniffing" into other styles and their principles out of interest. There are so many fantastic and very interesting other styles and if I have the opportunity to take (at least) a small look, why shouldn't I?


Armin.

[Abstract]

THere is a fella who teaches Escrima not too far from where I study WC, and I was thinking about looking into it, but since I haven't progressed to the weapons yet, I didn't wanna pick up any bad habits that may interfere with my training.... verrrrryy iiinteresting... :cool: