To fail, or not to fail...

[Samurai Jack]

I've been enjoying Pavel's PTP routine for 13 weeks now with okay results. There are things I like about PTP and things that I need to alter somewhat. For example, after 12 weeks I started to feel like my biceps and lats were not getting specific enough work, so last week I included two sets of bent-over-rows with the basic deadlift/press combination.

I'm still a little sceptical concerning Pavel's insistance on never training to failure. I guess as an old "HIT Jedi" it's still tough for me to swallow. I understand the rational behind a powerlifter refusing to fail, but the logic behind training to failure is also difficult to refute.

To sum up the opposing views:

The high-intensity trainers say a muscle must be worked to it's absolute limit in order to stimulate new growth and strength increases. Failure is thought to be the best way to accomplish this. Proponents of this method include Elington Darden, Stuart McRobert (of the Brawn series), Mike Mentzer, John Little, Pete Sisco, John Philben, and Manuel Silviero. These are just the guys I've read.

The Never-to-failure guys say that if you train a muscle to failure, the nervous system will develop a habit of stopping at the failure point and strength gains will slow and eventually stop. The only proponent of this method I've read is Pavel Tsatsouline, but there are several good authors who don't insist you train to failure, but also don't say you shouldn't.

Anyone care to comment?

[IronFist]

Generally speaking, I find that training to failure results in more DOMS. So that's something to think about if you also practice MA or whatever.

I know that didn't really answer your question, but it's a good thing to consider. I might write more later if I have time.

[blooming lotus]

When I'm full training I usually do train to failure, especially in my arms, but because of my style combo, I think it only suits becuae I'm more about endurance I guess. Can you tell us what a d om is please??

[Samurai Jack]

DOMS = delayed onset muscle soreness

[blooming lotus]

really?... I rarely get sore post, I think that has alot to with stretching and possibly recovery fluids.

[Samurai Jack]

Maybe also the fact that you aren't training with heavy weights. On a muscular hypertrophy program soreness seems to go with the territory.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
really?... I rarely get sore post, I think that has alot to with stretching and possibly recovery fluids.

It's cuz you're used to the volume load you give your muscles.


Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Maybe also the fact that you aren't training with heavy weights. On a muscular hypertrophy program soreness seems to go with the territory.

Soreness isn't the result of hypertrophy training, it's just that it happens to be frequent with hypertrophy training. Soreness is generally caused by a high volume of work that the muscles aren't used to. Take me, I lift weights all the time but never do cardio. If I go run a mile right now, tomorrow my legs will be sore. Is it because running a mile is condusive to hypertrophy? No. It's because it's a larger volume of work than what my muscles are used to. It's also why a newbie to exercise will be sore as hell after his first day, but in a month or so he'll have much less soreness after his workouts.

[blooming lotus]

I guess your're right. Having a predominantly bwe routine, there are only so many ways to increase the load........ there are levels of difficulty, bringing in other muscle groups or maxing out on one at a different angle, but I think I'm just really well conditioned to carry my own weight and therefore no longer get sore, but tired....

but I do get failure , like when I max out on 500 + pushups...... so back to that........ failure that is........ pros / cons...... anyone else???

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
but I do get failure , like when I max out on 500 + pushups...... so back to that........ failure that is........ pros / cons...... anyone else???

I don't supposed that's one set of 500 full range pushups on your toes?

[blooming lotus]

at times, but when my routine has been choppy, I get there however I can...... if I start back on kness, then go to 100 toes, it's how I get there, and I know I do as much time etc allows...... the b*tch of dicey diets and working ones as* off..................

[IronFist]

I'm raising the BS flag on that one. I doubt you've ever done 500 full range pushups in one set on your toes. I bet less than 0.001% of trained athletes aged 20-30 can do that. In fact, I would be willing to bet that less than 10 people have ever done that, ever, in the history of the world.

[blooming lotus]

I think you may be exagerating just a little, but stay in denial. I can only tell you how I got there. ( bit of blow for a super fit all american ( come german ??) boy ha???

dong.

[Vash]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
dong.

I imagine if you got some of this, you'd probably talk normal.

[blooming lotus]

some of what??? .dong?? as in understand ???............ sorry dude, just missed your punch-line............

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I think you may be exagerating just a little, but stay in denial. I can only tell you how I got there. ( bit of blow for a super fit all american ( come german ??) boy ha???


[homestar runner]

I'm sorry, what?

[/homestar runner]

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by FooFighter

There are pros and cons in all schools or methodologies.Insteading of crapping on a certain method or being dogmatic about a certain camp, it is my opinion that it is all about knowing your art, goals, and correctly applying a personalized workout plan or design using any and all methods to accomplish your end result...I would not poo-poo on specific muscular training or bodybuilding

Not crapping or poo-poo-ing at the moment, just asking an honest question, but it dosen't seem like anyone has any opinions on the pros and cons of the two different methods.

I was hoping for a scientific discourse here in order to help me decide what might be the best direction for my next training cycle to take. It's important to know what and why you are doing something if you are going to make an informed decision.

For the record, Pavel was the one who suggested failure was bad (that's crapping on a certain method), however, I agree that it's been very nice avoiding the sore/stiff factor.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I hope this will help you decide on your next course of action.

Actually, it has. I had forgotten why Mr. Bao was on my ignore list. Now that you have reminded me, I'll add your new handle.

[blooming lotus]

so what did we decide? to fail or not to fail?

[Serpent]

Personally I advocate occasional failure. Test yourself every once in a while by going to failure, but don't do it all the time.

[blooming lotus]

Hmm........ how occassional to maximise do you think??

[Serpent]

Well, how long is a piece of string? It really depends on your workout schedule and the type of workout. I wouldn't go to failure in any one muscle group more than once a week at the very most. Even once a month would be reasonable.

[blooming lotus]

ok. Just wondering on your thoughts about the matter, and hold the phone, I think we just agreed on something.:eek: :eek:

[Serpent]

*faints*

[cerebus]

Must be a misunderstanding. Either that or you really do agree and you're both wrong! :D :D

[blooming lotus]

Toby, are you masquerading again??

[Toby]

Lol! I don't have any alter egos. cerebus is doing a good job at debunking you lately, though. You'll notice I've been holding back a bit ... what a nice guy I am :D. It's not easy ;).

[blooming lotus]

how charitable in indeed :rolleyes:

[Toby]

In indeed, Eyebrows. In indeed.

[blooming lotus]

"in indeed" ??? .lol...... would you believe, in indeedance??