Stick Fighting

[YongChun]

Since many Wing Chun people are into Escrima as well these days, here is a video clip of Bobby Taboada working out:
http://www.worldbalintawak.com/vidclips.html

I was thinking that feeding stick attacks may help to defend against fast kickers but I haven't tested that theory out yet (worked for Ancion Bacon).

Ray

[Ernie]

He whips a stick nice , but his waist is tight [ could be a positive for wing chun people :D ]

also elavation change was very limited again , he is older

but i got some 8mm stuff from the islands that shows some guys from way back , very old me but moving like butter
they were alot thiner as well,

could just be good island liveing :D

thanks for the clip

[Matrix]

Hey Ray,

Thanks for sharing the clip. Very nice, IMO. :cool:

Bill

[YongChun]

More information regarding the history of Bobby Taboada's Escrima:

http://www.balintawakeskrima.faithweb.com/new_page_1.htm

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by YongChun
I was thinking that feeding stick attacks may help to defend against fast kickers but I haven't tested that theory out yet (worked for Ancion Bacon).

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I heard the story that Anciong Bacon easily defeated the best Karate guys that Japan sent over to the Philippines to introduce Karate there. That was a long time ago. Bacon said it was because stick speed was a lot faster than foot speed. So if you swing a stick #1 angle at someone it's the same angle as a roundhouse kick to the head. If you swing a stick at a medium speed then you get about the same speed as a fast roundhouse kick to the head. But the stick can be swung faster and faster until there is no way you can even see it. So you can train progressively from slow to impossibly fast. If you can handle fast stick strikes from any angle then you've got to be pretty good because it's next to impossible without another stick in your hand. The stick angles can mimic any kick angle. Front thrust kick is the same as stomach poke with a stick. A stomach poke with a stick or knife or fencing foil is very fast, faster than a Karate thrust kick to the stomach probably because of leg chambering delays and that the leg is a heavier object to move.

Once I learned from one of the Balintawak guys and the training involved him just whacking me all over the place at high speed. I didn't know what's coming or going. It was too fast for me to see or react to. But that was his idea, just to get me used to sensing speed. He said in time all that stuff wouldn't seem so fast anymore. With a knife thrust , there was a Filipino guy by the name of Sonny Umpad from California who came up here and showed how nobody, no matter what they knew, could stop his straight thrust to the stomach. Some police tape also showed maybe Inosanto or one of his teachers being able to close from a distance of about 21 feet before the police could pull out his gun. I think that wouldn't work against Wyatt Earp or the Clint Eastwood character though. Top people draw too fast with specially designed guns and holsters:

http://www.bob-munden.com/legends.htm

I met this Chinese student in the late 1960's who studied Hung style from an 87 year old Chinese master in the Philippines. He said his teacher taught Hung style and also Tai Chi which is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He said that when he joined, he came out of Karate and the teacher told him to spar with one of his 12 year old students. That student had trained since he was 4 years old. So , being used to tournament fighting, he did. First he threw a high roundhouse kick to the students head. The 12 year old student dodged and hit him with two fingers near the top of his leg. His leg immediately went numb and limp and fell to his side. Then the teacher massaged his leg until it was good again. The match continued and he charged in with a fast high punch. The student again used two fingers to hit a point on the shoulder and his arm went limp. Again the teacher massaged some other points and brought back the feeling. The teacher said the student had been studying point hitting for about three years.

So this guy joined the club. He said the teacher even at his age regularly sparred with all of his students and even though they were good, the teacher was still better. He said the teacher has many kinds of specialty training drills that he would train to keep himself sharp and fast. For example he would swing a marble on a string all over the place to get his eyes used to very fast movement. I have seen something where William Cheung as a similar idea but using his finger. Then the master would have a handful of cork bits, throw them up into the air and then using Crane style pecking actions peck all of them (catching them) before any hit the ground. In that part of the Phillipines the Karate students and Arnis students were scared to compete against that masters Hung style students. The student said the Hung style training was very classical with forms, forms and more forms. But body conditioning was always number one , many specailty drills and later after about ten years fighting against anyone.

The classical training in Hung style, Tai Chi or Wing Chun shouldn't be underestimated since it produced some very good real fighters.

Some Tai Chi master said you can defeat strength but not speed. If you think of speed in terms of a bullet then who can stop one of those? Escrima stick hits are faster than your eye can perceive. It's very difficult to get into a fast swing. Someone could swing and be ready for a return strike before you can blink.

Then looking at many students that come and learn Wing Chun, they have maybe no martial arts training and none of them can kick or will be able to even with many years Wing Chun because they don't train in Taekwondo which specializes in kicking. So it is difficult for students to feed each other realistic kicks to train against.

However anyone can sure learn to swing a stick quickly enough. So that's why I thought that maybe feeding stick strikes can help to develop quick entry skills. However not all Wing Chun clubs feel they need to develop these kinds of skills as some use the idea of the Cobra snake that waits for it's prey to come into it's region and then strike. When I studied in the Wang Kiu lineage they developed a fast entry like an arrow technique using the toes of the back foot similar to how a sprinter would start in a 100 meter race (except upright). When I studied in the Leung Sheung lineage they used more the latter approach to wait until the attacker was within reach to strike.

I once practiced against a Wing Chun / Karate guy that did a lot of tournaments. There was no way I was as fast as him on his feet. He was a very fast hit and run type of fighter. Like a Taekwondo guy he could deliver a good kick while backing up too. I never do tournaments except a couple in my Karate days after which I tore my ligaments. So I decided to use the idea that when he is close enough to strike me, then certainly I will be able to strike him because my hand speed isn't going to be any slower than his. Well that worked pretty well. (not much data to support any theory though). He could dance around all day while I watched the show but once in range he couldn't easily get in. That was in the late 1980's mind you. Maybe I'm slower now so I have to get going with those specialty drills.

But I haven't tried the stick feeding idea as a way to help defend against fast kicking skills because most people now are beginners having a hard enough time trying to remember a few forms, learning to relax and build up some Chi sau movements all on once a week practice.

The stick idea also has it's dangers because not all students have any common sense. Some will hit with full force no control and just don't have any idea about any dangers like two year old climbing a high slide.

Ray

[Ernie]

Attributes gentleman attributes

Developing line familiarization, eye sensitivity and footwork with respect to isolating velocity. Fun stuff



thanks for sharing your experiences Ray ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by YongChun
I heard the story that Anciong Bacon easily defeated the best Karate guys that Japan sent over to the Philippines to introduce Karate there....

Thanx Ray!

That's interesting stuff, I have never thought of the concept of using sticks to practice against kicks, but from what you posted it makes sense.



Originally posted by YongChun
I think that wouldn't work against Wyatt Earp or the Clint Eastwood character though. Top people draw too fast with specially designed guns and holsters....

LOL
How many people do you see wearing quickdraw rigs these days, especially those who would be likely to pull a gun on you (or a cop, for that matter).;)



Originally posted by YongChun
I met this Chinese student in the late 1960's who studied Hung style from an 87 year old Chinese master in the Philippines. He said his teacher taught Hung style and also Tai Chi which is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He said that when he joined, he came out of Karate and the teacher told him to spar with one of his 12 year old students. That student had trained since he was 4 years old. So , being used to tournament fighting, he did. First he threw a high roundhouse kick to the students head. The 12 year old student dodged and hit him with two fingers near the top of his leg. His leg immediately went numb and limp and fell to his side. Then the teacher massaged his leg until it was good again. The match continued and he charged in with a fast high punch. The student again used two fingers to hit a point on the shoulder and his arm went limp. Again the teacher massaged some other points and brought back the feeling. The teacher said the student had been studying point hitting for about three years.

An interesting story, although I always take these kinds of stories with a grain of salt, 'I knew a guy and he said' and all that. In a court they call it 'hearsay', and isn't regarded as evidence, even if it is true.



Originally posted by YongChun
Then the master would have a handful of cork bits, throw them up into the air and then using Crane style pecking actions peck all of them (catching them) before any hit the ground.

How 'bout catching flys with chopsticks?:D

Seriously though, video games are a good way to develop hand-eye coordination and sight reflexes. They don't, however, do this in the realm of using your body in conjunction; as in MA.



Originally posted by YongChun
many specailty drills and later after about ten years fighting against anyone.

How many students do you think the modern, north american, MA school would keep if the instructor told them they would not be able to fight anyone until ten years after begining training?
No doubt, time-in-trade gives you better skills, but people want something they can use within a relative amount of time.



Originally posted by YongChun
Some Tai Chi master said you can defeat strength but not speed. If you think of speed in terms of a bullet then who can stop one of those? Escrima stick hits are faster than your eye can perceive. It's very difficult to get into a fast swing. Someone could swing and be ready for a return strike before you can blink.

A stick swing is fast, but like any circular attack, can be traced from it's origin (shoulder, in the case of the stick), which will be moving slower. If you watch the tip of the stick, you won't be able to follow it. If you watch the hand, you have the same chance as watching a punch. If you watch the shoulder/upper arm, even better.



Originally posted by YongChun
Then looking at many students that come and learn Wing Chun, they have maybe no martial arts training and none of them can kick or will be able to even with many years Wing Chun because they don't train in Taekwondo which specializes in kicking. So it is difficult for students to feed each other realistic kicks to train against.

This is so true, that is why I like talking to and sharing with people of other styles of MA. I don't try to 'sell' them on WC, I just share, learn, and hopefully form a friedship that we can spar and experience each other's techniques and abilities. Other than that, I try to practice techniques outside of WC in order to do my best at throwing them on my training partners (even then, they are moderate at best).



Originally posted by YongChun
However anyone can sure learn to swing a stick quickly enough. So that's why I thought that maybe feeding stick strikes can help to develop quick entry skills. However not all Wing Chun clubs feel they need to develop these kinds of skills as some use the idea of the Cobra snake that waits for it's prey to come into it's region and then strike. When I studied in the Wang Kiu lineage they developed a fast entry like an arrow technique using the toes of the back foot similar to how a sprinter would start in a 100 meter race (except upright). When I studied in the Leung Sheung lineage they used more the latter approach to wait until the attacker was within reach to strike.

Entering, empty-hand vs. stick, is definatly good practice for general entering skills. As far as striking vs. waiting, this is an issue of strategy not technique. Some WC teach to accept an attack, let it 'coil' your 'spring energy' for you to release it back on them, but a little birdy told me 'be like a spring, already coiled and ready to explode forward'. IOW, why wait, attack, intercept. Try sparring with empty-hands vs. stick and see how good it works to wait for your opponent to come to you.



Originally posted by YongChun
But I haven't tried the stick feeding idea as a way to help defend against fast kicking skills because most people now are beginners having a hard enough time trying to remember a few forms, learning to relax and build up some Chi sau movements all on once a week practice.

Emin says 'It's not how many years/months of training you have, it's how many hours are in those years/months.'

It's difficult to get much out of only once per week, unless you are sure your students put in the solo hours at home/on off days.



Originally posted by YongChun
The stick idea also has it's dangers because not all students have any common sense. Some will hit with full force no control and just don't have any idea about any dangers like two year old climbing a high slide.

Use practice sticks, we made some from PVC pipe and foam pipe insulation, wrapped with electrical tape (put caps on the ends of the pipe). You can hit with full power, and it will sting, but nothing serious though. Just make sure to target away from the face or use eye protection (or both).

[russellsherry]

hi ray nice clip, mate i train in arnis under roland dantes go to www kelly worden .com for a nice interveiw , with guro dantes about training with remy preas, on datu kellys on the edge raido
program peace russellsherry

[AmanuJRY]

Did some stick training last night.
Got some bruises to prove it. :D

We tried some empty hands vs. stick, boy was that a learning expreience.

[sagasa]

As a someone who trained in wing chun, but shifted more to the FMA, I found the story about Anciong Bacon interesting. Having spent the better part ofthe last 6 months travelling and training throughout the Philippines, I have heard many stories. This is the first time that I have heard this one and to be honest, I doubt its authenticity. Anciong had a lot of history behind him which is extremely interesting, but I think this one is a little far fetched.

[KenWingJitsu]

Kali-bo:D