Facing the set

[Hendrik]

Thus, I have heard, once upon a time,


When training with a set such as SLT.

The following details catagory and the process of training have to be faced:



Tendon, skin/muscle, and bone/structure.--- physical

Qing(essense/sinews), breathing/Qi, and Shen/awareness --- mind/body/neuro

Shape, potentia/momentum, and Jing (power/energy issuing). --- application




how are we facing the set training today?

Say a tan sau and Tan da, how are interm of the details and process as above?

care to share?

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
how are we facing the set training today?

Say a tan sau and Tan da, how are interm of the details and process as above?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but Taan Sau has a specific time, space, and energy for application. It also has a specific structure and energetic, and it has a specific intent.

Lineages vary, but I would say most (if not all of them) have their own definitions of the above that are effective.

-Levi

[Vajramusti]

Levi sez:

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but Taan Sau has a specific time, space, and energy for application. It also has a specific structure and energetic, and it has a specific intent.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Levi- unless you provide clearly understandable meanings of what you are referring to re time, space etc... they sound like vague and empty words. May have meanings for HFY folks in their internal communications. ...but not much for others.

Besides, Hendrik is asking some generic questions- not really about HFY.

If you are unsure of what he is asking why not pass up the thread? Even use the ignore button for Hemdrik's posts- leaving others to communicate with Hendrik if they wish.

The 3 categories that he mentions are fairly well known in TCMA and he is asking how different people see/use these categiries in the sil lim tao- if they do.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Levi- unless you provide clearly understandable meanings of what you are referring to re time, space etc... they sound like vague and empty words. May have meanings for HFY folks in their internal communications. ...but not much for others.

I wasn't talking about HFY. I never mentioned HFY. In fact, I was referring to both my HFY and my Yip Man training.

Time, Space, and Energy are universals, and I was using them as such.

Time = there is a time to Taan, there is a time to Biu, etc. Depends on the context of the exchange.

Space = there is a specific space in which Taan can be used. There are certain range requirements, and there are distances at which a Taan would be too long (or too short) to handle the situation.

Energy = there is a specific energy that Taan is designed for. Less energy is too soft, more energy is too rigid. The energy will depend on the bridge.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
Besides, Hendrik is asking some generic questions- not really about HFY.

And I was giving a generic answer - not really about HFY.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
If you are unsure of what he is asking why not pass up the thread? Even use the ignore button for Hemdrik's posts- leaving others to communicate with Hendrik if they wish.

Because I 'd rather communicate with people, and so I give a caveat at the beginning of my post that allows for interpretation within a certain context - that I am not sure what he is asking but am doing my best to answer. Rather than assume I know what he meant. Because assuming almost never pans out well.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
The 3 categories that he mentions are fairly well known in TCMA and he is asking how different people see/use these categiries in the sil lim tao- if they do.

And that's all I needed - an explaination. How can I get one if I don't make it know I am unsure?

Besides, Hendrik asked if we cared to share, and as he said on another thread:

Because it is "sharing" thus it is a discussion that everyone bring up something to the party. Then, from there, everyone shares.

everyone please participate do some thinking/guessing and post your idea and get thing running.

Let everyone has a say and see everyone's point of views.

Anyone wants to give a try and start this technical discussion?

-Levi

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti


The 3 categories that he mentions are fairly well known in TCMA and he is asking how different people see/use these categiries in the sil lim tao- if they do.


Correct.

For me,
Even just a Tan Sau, there are that 3 categories within it which needs to be address.



As for time, space, energy, some might like that model, However, I see that as pretty westernized kind of model.

The reason being is that at the Awareness catagory, time and space are relative and non linear.

there is a different in time and space between one who can go beyond thought and settle one's thought. compare with one who has no idea about the thinker is not oneself.

A mindfull, Awareness mind always has more "time" and "space" to response then a rush rush mind, a mind full of thoughts or a sleepy black out or a mind full of fear thoughts.

Thus, everyone's "time and space" are different.

So, machenical time and space cannot use as an absolute reference for human who by nature subject to different condition.

other example is similar to some who is good in driving can drive very fast and between cars. as the one who is not good in driving doesnt see that is possible or even think that is dangerously too close.


Tan itself has a clear details of the 3 catagory. otherwise, there will be qualitative talk but no quatitative step to step training process and implementation.


Doing a set without looking at all these catagory is similar to driving an automatic car always with a D4 gear and following the road sign. That is fine and great for who uses driving for commute. As to understand the art of driving or skill. it is not an edequate training.

just some blue sky

[Hendrik]

Say Tan sau,

How is one execute it? how is the three catagory support the activation or execution? how is it condition or train?

IE. a Soft Kiu is not a Hard Kiu. one cant train and condition in a Hard way and then decide to use it soft.

IE. when is the power of Tan issue? one cant train and condition in a way to flip and forwardly force out the tan slowly and softly; while in application the Kiu of the opponents is so strong and fast that it will crash in due to one's tan cant catch up the speed.
or the bone or tendon is not strong enought to twist forward.....
So should Tan being train this way?


Then, what happen in Tan Dar? if Tan is forwardly flip force out, how is that momentum accord with the Dar or hit? is it adding or subtracting to the momentum/power? ....


IE

Tendon, skin/muscle, and bone/structure.--- physical catagory.
Qing(essense/sinews), breathing/Qi, and Shen/awareness --- mind/body/neuro catagory
Shape, potentia/momentum, and Jing (power/energy issuing). --- application


how are the above "stuffs" train/condition while doing the Tan Sau within SLT?

I look at these very engineering. otherwise, IMHO, when one meet an opponent of Rock hard Kiu which condition with Bamboo tree. the opponent just has to sweep the Rock hard Kiu to clear the path of its way disregards of what Tan or fok.... etc . it doesnt matter. the powerfull one takes it all.

That is the second key words of Kiu Sau --- Cross. how to cross? hard kiu cross in a hard forcefull /powerfull way. as for soft kiu what will it do? do one train and condition for it? what type of Kiu is Wing Chun Kuen has when it said, come keep, goes send,.....?

is a tan twisting and flipping forward accord to the kiu type of Wing Chun which with a goal of come keep, goes send....?

Thus, without answering the 3 catagories in details, it is very blur. and that shown the cause and effect or outcome clearly. that too track who is importing what and will it accord with the main core --- come keep, goes send......

Thus, I always not agree with others often when people say this set is equavalent to that set...etc. one has to satisfied the 3 catagories and more details to be equavalent. and lots of stuffs are hidden. such as the second catagory and the third catagory. cant steal that unless others tell one the details of the process.

in the old time, it said, it takes 3 years to learn the SLT. or easy to study but difficult to master. it is difficult to master because all the details. it is not just stand there like a dummy and repeat the samethings for three years with 2 hours a pice. the set is a laboratory. one is in that laboratory for 3 years and 2 or more hours aday examine all the three catagoy. otherwise, how can one master the set? master what? the caligraphy (sp?) those are real surface. ancient terminology? that is just paper talks. one sees how the big picture and small details interact. then one master the set. and only after that one talks about fighting. otherwise how is one going to fight? how many "tools" one has? if no "tools' then one will rely on power, speed, as major default.

everyone talks about relax this day while doing SLT.
is relax the ultimate key to do SLT? it is just a part of the story. it generally takes care of some issue in the catagory 1 and 2. but if the catagory 1 is not fully taking care of. that create big problem. when the opponents has a hard bridge or strong momentum.

If one have a pillow clamping experience; one knows while facing a grapper, one is not going to raise a knee..etc. even a lightweight pillow is "heavy" and needs balancing effort when it comes to Centrel of Gravity and structure influence, not to mention when others is going for one's lower section. one knows what will likely to happen and no need to fight to test what known likely to fail fail.


just some blue sky thoughts

[taltos]

Thanks Hendrik! Now I have an idea of what is being covered here.

I can see how someone could interpret time, space, and energy the way you described. I was using very generic terms, so it certainly was an option. The reason I don't think it is a "westernized" model is because those three things are inherent to everything. When you said

The reason being is that at the Awareness catagory, time and space are relative and non linear.

there is a different in time and space between one who can go beyond thought and settle one's thought. compare with one who has no idea about the thinker is not oneself.

A mindfull, Awareness mind always has more "time" and "space" to response then a rush rush mind, a mind full of thoughts or a sleepy black out or a mind full of fear thoughts.

Thus, everyone's "time and space" are different

I see what you are describing as personal application and expression, not necessarily the Taan Sau itself. Of course no 2 Taan Saus will look identical always, but certainly there are underlying principles that are common.

I also think that different lineages will approach a Taan Sau in different ways, but there will always be common threads (since they stem from the same source).

When you were referring to your second mode of kiu (which could be added to the Kiu Sau thread for more sharing), I was wondering: are you discussing the three aspects of any given technique, or the ways a technique can be used to kiu (connecting or crossing or whatever the other two are)?

I train Taan Sau the same way I would use it. There are challenges put against it to make sure that I have the proper structure (or physical shape), the proper intent (or mindfullness), and the proper energy (or energetic or fluidity). If any of these things are out of balance, the whole thing comes crashing down.

-Levi

[Hendrik]

Levi,

There are tons of things can be discussed and dig out. what you seen here is just a tip of an ice berg.



Thoughts are nice, but thoughts are just thoughts. human beings love to make their thoughts the ultimate truth. and by doing so, one satisfied one's ego. Real Wing Chun Kuen or Ch'an has no room for that. Thus, it is said, just do it dont think.

Leong Jan said, " no me no technics, no method no realm." it is not about NO. it is about once one think and get into a conciousness pattern one is lock into that pattern. See, i dont even have time in the past to present this because people is censor this and that left and right when Chan was brought up.
all those censorship and banning... is because someone wants to talk about thier consciousness but not the core of the WCK or Chan -- the AWARENESS and how to train it.

the consciousness trap one. why do we have fear. why is certain one always wants to put other down to get into upper hand. all is about consciousness. if this equation of consciousness never understood and has the capability to clear it. The rest of Chan Chan chan stuffs will never being truely understood. and as the normal practice. it falls back to the eight noble truth.... those are another type of conciousness. not about the study and investigation of the AWARENESS.

BUT, disregards of what, Chinese Martial art from Shao Lin, Emei, Wudang....
One always needs a blue print, a methodology, and methods....
and that applied to Chan training too. not to mention Martial art are based solidly on physical realm.

As for Kung Fu of others' one cannot steal it away, that is because if one never really arrive at San Francisco and live there one will not be able to tell others about the details. As for how one wants to call the Goldern gate bridge or Kam Moon Kiu, it is up to the person. But, there better be a Goldern gate bridge there or else it becomes a fantasy.

As it is said, enligtenment is about seeing clearly both the big picture and all the details in the same time. understanding is just knowing a small pice here and there but never quite be able to get the whole picture converge. thus, in that case always more things invented to close the gaps to group up the big picture. however, no matter how much the things invented. the big picture can never be group up. Thus, kung fu cannot be steal. only he who is in San Francisco can tell the full story with details. reading a map cant do it.


just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos


1, When you were referring to your second mode of kiu (which could be added to the Kiu Sau thread for more sharing), I was wondering: are you discussing the three aspects of any given technique, or the ways a technique can be used to kiu (connecting or crossing or whatever the other two are)?

2, I train Taan Sau the same way I would use it. There are challenges put against it to make sure that I have the proper structure (or physical shape), the proper intent (or mindfullness), and the proper energy (or energetic or fluidity). If any of these things are out of balance, the whole thing comes crashing down.




1, good question.
what do you think? is connecting the same with crossing? is it a mode or is it a technics? Can connecting concept such as wrong connection, not connection, eternal connected which is belongs to the Conneting replace the Crossing mode?

2, great.
Care to explain what is a proper structure? proper intent? what is mindfullness? proper energy ? fluidity? in details so that it is a quantitative instead of qualitative.


perhaps others can share too. see how everyone think.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Thoughts are nice, but thoughts are just thoughts. human beings love to make their thoughts the ultimate truth. and by doing so, one satisfied one's ego. Real Wing Chun Kuen or Ch'an has no room for that. Thus, it is said, just do it dont think.

I agree. That's why the direct experience of reality, and not a person's perception of reality, is most important. In WC terms, we have to listen to the bridge says, not what we want it to say.

But then again, we have to make our own thoughts our "truth" for a little while because we can't "just do it" on a forum... we have to have a common denominator for experience.


Originally posted by Hendrik
One always needs a blue print, a methodology, and methods....
not to mention Martial art are based solidly on physical realm.

Agreed. Without a map, we're lost. But we need to remember that after we have arrived, the map is only a reminder of the journey, not still the thing that guides us.


Originally posted by Hendrik
just some thoughts.

Thanks for sharing!

-Levi

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
what do you think? is connecting the same with crossing? is it a mode or is it a technics? Can connecting concept such as wrong connection, not connection, eternal connected which is belongs to the Conneting replace the Crossing mode?

Care to explain what is a proper structure? proper intent? what is mindfullness? proper energy ? fluidity? in details so that it is a quantitative instead of qualitative.

perhaps others can share too. see how everyone think.

Well, I already shared, so I will wait for you or someone else to add their understanding of Taan before I continue. I would want to be accused of "teaching." :D

-Levi

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Thoughts are nice, but thoughts are just thoughts. human beings love to make their thoughts the ultimate truth. and by doing so, one satisfied one's ego. Real Wing Chun Kuen or Ch'an has no room for that. Thus, it is said, just do it dont think.

Hi Hendrik,

I have to disagree with what I think you are saying here. While I agree thoughts can just be thoughts, it is through thought, specific focus of thought on a particular aspect of something that helps it evolve.

I don't think 'real Wing Chun Kuen' has developed without that evolution of thought on precise effects of certain movements.

For example:
You move your Tan a certain way, it is blocked, you find a resolve to that by thought and adjust accordingly.

Everyone finds a way around something. If you stay stagnent on a particular movement without giving thought to its weakness you in turn become weak to the evolution of all the movements around you.

Just some thoughts ;)

Take care,
Vicky

[taltos]

Just had to say, I LOVE the quote in your signature!

-Levi

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by taltos
Just had to say, I LOVE the quote in your signature!

-Levi

Hey Levi,
Thanks,
Saw it years ago and it so made sense to me.
Actually I just recently saw who it was from and was on the fly and forgot again. I think it is Andy Worhol or something..........must check into it and give credit where it is due.

But heck ya, great isn't it..........it is too true.

Thanks for the props,
Take care and keep climbing because that is the best part of it all.
Vicky

[Da_Moose]

Care to explain what is a proper structure? proper intent? what is mindfullness? proper energy ? fluidity? in details so that it is a quantitative instead of qualitative.

Using the Taan Sau as an example, and what Taltos mentioned earlier about T/S/E, from my experience, Taan Sau has one proper structure that is most efficient, but that structure can be employed in several ways. It can be used with a more defensive intent or a more offensive intent, with the rear hand or lead hand, from a closed or open stance orientation. First, the structure details (this is from the HFY perspective, perhaps Taltos can chime in with his Ip Man experience perspective as well soon?). The Taan Sau is set up so that the elbow is inside the shoulder line, the forearm and wrist/hand line up completely straight (so the fingers point up). The energy is always that of a forward nature, set to maintain the space the Taan Sau creates with its shape, to keep it from collapsing when it is used. This forward energy is driven from the elbow and the structure of the Taan Sau also adds to the forward energy naturally. The intent of the Taan Sau for us is to cover our high (heaven) gate from the inside to the outside in a semi-circular sweeping motion.

The mindfulness is being aware of the situation you’re currently in and what you need to use to keep going rather than get blown away. As you may not always be set up to use a Taan Da and end the encounter quickly, you need to be aware of how to use Taan Sau both offensively (with a Da) or, defensively.

Also, regarding how do we face the set today in training? Are you referring to a beginner? An advanced student? These need to be kept in mind because at each level the focus within each set may be different. A beginner’s mindset versus that of an advanced student is different.

[Hendrik]

Vicky,


I have to disagree with what I think you are saying here. ------

Certainly it is great to heard different point of view.






While I agree thoughts can just be thoughts, it is through thought, specific focus of thought on a particular aspect of something that helps it evolve. ---------




I agree about specific focus of thought on a particular aspect of something that helps it evolve.

The issue is that whether the thought is a "self-derive thought " from other thoughts or it is a thought arive based on the observation of the facts.

If the thought is a "self-derive thought" from other thoughts then one has a type of evolvution. if the thought is a result of observation of the facts based then it result in a different kind of evolvution.






I don't think 'real Wing Chun Kuen' has developed without that evolution of thought on precise effects of certain movements. --------


That can be true too.


when Wing Chun Kuen is a thought then it no longer a Real /in action Wing Chun Kuen.

Because a thought is something completed. Wing Chun Kuen in action cannot live in the past or even future. Wing Chun Kuen In action can live only in Now beyond thought.

As an example, say we have a thought on how to do an entering or combination strike...etc. that thought has past once it was completed think.


while in facing, at the contact point , with the oponent, that entering or combination thought we had while in training is no longer "real time" or Now. Thus, that thought is not that usefull since it doesnt have the data of "real time" or Now. At "real time" we have to rely on Awareness of both the mind and body to response to the situation.


Saying that, however, the teaching of Wing Chun Kuen, (not Wing Chun Kuen in action/real) is an evolution based on thoughts based on facts observation. or some times, a "self-derive thought" based on other thoughts. since there are differnet of thoughts from different conciousness type, thus, different lineage forms.


Thought is a good tool to process data. But Thought doesnt represent "real time" or NOw. ONe always needs a processing time, and after that processing time, it is no longer Now. that is the issue. even dangarous is when one takes that Thinker or the Thought as oneself and bound by it into certain conciousness pattern. then one become a slave of the thoughts.

IE. one gets oneself in depression because one take the thinker of depression thought as oneself. Keep thinking the depression thought , and we influent/condition our body into that depression state gradually, until everything transform into depression. thus, we trap ourself.

in the same topic about set practicing,
TaiJI or SLT has healing power for depression because while doing it, one goes beyond the thought , live in NOw and rooted on the ground firmly. With the go beyond the thought and feeling firmly ground or supported.
One can see the through the depression thoughts. and out of depression. (isnt it great to know the healing power which can reset rather then kill bill 2? :D.) Every components of the 3 catagories means something if one can read it. That grounded belongs to the catagory 1. it is about root chakra if using the Indian Yoga terminology. and the root chakra is about support and connection. Thus, speaking about Kiu, if the catagory 1 is not understood, then the bridging breaks down.

Thus, such as the saying " Hung Gar speak of Kiu and Ma" is not an accident, the Hard Strong Kiu needs a Strong Wide stance to support it.

As for Wing Chun speak of Chi Sau (or Chi Dar as some also called put it) that has different requements of support.

all of these were shown in the SLT if we read the "bar code". NOt Da vinci code :D



So the key is who can choose when to use the thought when not to has control. but that call for experience beyond thought and thinker. which is "real time" or Now.





For example:
You move your Tan a certain way, it is blocked, you find a resolve to that by thought and adjust accordingly. -----


Great point.

may be we can experiment and observe, is that adjustment adjust according to thought or Awareness of mind and body or Mind/body?

IMHO,
if that is adjust by thought that is too late.


This brought up a point which is related to this post. in the second catagory. when one is doing SLT, what kind of thought one has in one's mind?

if it is a thought of moving the hand out similar to my sifu then will that accord to the condition of the body/breathing/mood environment of that day? does one aware of what happen around? does one has a wide angle view of everything around including oneself? or does one just executing the Tan as sifu said?
if one is just executing the Tan as sifu said, then will this habit condition while practicing SLT usefull in "real time"/Now or fighting?



Everyone finds a way around something. If you stay stagnent on a particular movement without giving thought to its weakness you in turn become weak to the evolution of all the movements around you.-------


we drink Coke and eat pop corn while we were watching movie because our thoughts or stimulus?

IMHO,
Thoughts, intent, awareness, will, attention.... lots of stuffs. Too bad we didnt come with a BABY OPERATING MANUAL when we derivel by the big birdto this world. So, we have to find it out in a hard way. :D




peace

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos


But then again, we have to make our own thoughts our "truth" for a little while because we can't "just do it" on a forum... we have to have a common denominator for experience.






One just have to read a post without prejudice and bias.

just strat the awareness, put attention to read without thinking.

The Facts will shown.


That is "just do it" on a forum.



Every Human being has this capabilities. one doesnt have to have a program burn in one's mind by some one's else for the common denominator of experience.

Otherwise, one is using another thought or others thoughts as a common denominator of experience. that cant be the "Truth".
Truth is beyond thoughts and embrace thought.

Everyone can sense hot or cold coffee, if aware, or pay attention without thought running wild in one's mind or absent minded. One doesnt need anything more then that to be able to aware and put attention to sense without distract.

ofcorse it needs training to make perfect. but everyone inherit the capability.


Thus,
one can do it in forum, in any where. standing, sleeping, typing, singing, showering, eating....... it is just about awareness and attention without bias or prejudist.


peace with open heart, thinking free, and live in Now.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Hendrik

when Wing Chun Kuen is a thought then it no longer a Real /in action Wing Chun Kuen.

Because a thought is something completed. Wing Chun Kuen in action cannot live in the past or even future. Wing Chun Kuen In action can live only in Now beyond thought.

.................................................. .........

Thought is a good tool to process data. But Thought doesnt represent "real time" or NOw. ONe always needs a processing time, and after that processing time, it is no longer Now. that is the issue. even dangarous is when one takes that Thinker or the Thought as oneself and bound by it into certain conciousness pattern. then one become a slave of the thoughts.

IE. one gets oneself in depression because one take the thinker of depression thought as oneself. Keep thinking the depression thought , and we influent/condition our body into that depression state gradually, until everything transform into depression. thus, we trap ourself.
.................................................. .........
So the key is who can choose when to use the thought when not to has control. but that call for experience beyond thought and thinker. which is "real time" or Now.
.................................................. ...............................
This brought up a point which is related to this post. in the second catagory. when one is doing SLT, what kind of thought one has in one's mind?

if it is a thought of moving the hand out similar to my sifu then will that accord to the condition of the body/breathing/mood environment of that day? does one aware of what happen around? does one has a wide angle view of everything around including oneself? or does one just executing the Tan as sifu said?
if one is just executing the Tan as sifu said, then will this habit condition while practicing SLT usefull in "real time"/Now or fighting?



Hi Hendrik,

Excellent points and expressed even better.

Thank you for sharing,
Vicky

[anerlich]

TaiJI or SLT has healing power for depression because while doing it

I think you'll find many doctors will say that ANY physical activity (excepting perhaps gravedigging, body recovery, and similar) has healing power for depression, even if it's just walking for 30 minutes a day.

In this regard, I don't think Taiji or WC are better or worse than any other physical activity. Arguably, simpler activities may be better as they come without the esoteric mental baggage with which some festoon TCMA, resulting in self-ensnarement.

No magic here, other than that of ordinary life, the chief exalted grand poobah of miracles.

[Gangsterfist]

Talking about muscle memory, and physical attributes from training?


That is what I am getting here. Practice a tan sao in the form how it would perfectly be utilized given your current body structure/position. That is a referecne point of where the tan sao should be executed.

How you apply it in real situations will not be the same as you do it in the form, the form is merely a reference point to be analyzed, studied, and ingrained in our muscle memory.

The breathing and circulation of the body can make the body healthy, open up and feel relaxed. You can get an overall good feeling.

Does the tan sao do this for me in the SLT?

Yeah, I can feel the elbow positioning and the arms relaxed. I can always refer back to the form to check my structure when in practicing chi sao. In a real situation you couldn't stop and check lol.

Maybe sometimes what can be explained simple can get overcomplicated. However, that is what I got from the original question.

[Hendrik]

I think you'll find many doctors will say that ANY physical activity (excepting perhaps gravedigging, body recovery, and similar) has healing power for depression, even if it's just walking for 30 minutes a day. -----


I agree, in general, any physical activity has healling power for depression.

However, how does it works?
why some is more effective then others?
what makes them works different?
there are parameters behind.
Generaization, doesnt solve this issues.

Walking 30 minutes a day will help only if while walking the depression thoughts are not continously spiralling, upto a point of making conclusion to "what is the use". otherwise, it doesnt work effectively.

Because if one cannot intently focus to live in Now or this instant. the body finally will obey the thoughts' comman. quit walking.






In this regard, I don't think Taiji or WC are better or worse than any other physical activity. Arguably, simpler activities may be better as they come without the esoteric mental baggage with which some festoon TCMA, resulting in self-ensnarement. ----


As mention above, there are lots of parameters behind the generazation of physical activity. needs to be known.

IN depression case,
why is exercise involve legs is better then just hand exercise which sit on a chiar?
Why is exercise with a suggestive or affirmation is better then an exercise which is just let thoughts run wild?
why is exercise with Beta brain wave different then alpha brain wave?



And, Labelling what ever mind/body training as esoteric mental baggage itself is an act of conciousnesss that stick to a particular believe selection.

and that is not living in NOW but living in a selective type of conciousness or thoughts.






No magic here, other than that of ordinary life, the chief exalted grand poobah of miracles. ------------


I agree there is no Magic at all. All is a caucial system dealing with Cause and Effect with parameters specifically define.

However, NO MAGIC is not equavalent to holding a conciousness of in denial about Mind but accept only on Physical. or vice versal.
Those are extreemist living in their own thoughts.


And how to make a NO MAGIC SLT set? face the 3 catagories. understant all of the parameters and trying them out to see which works which doesnt and continous to grow with direction. Not blind faith, not in denial or mental effect, not in denial of physical training either.

[Hendrik]

How you apply it in real situations will not be the same as you do it in the form, the form is merely a reference point to be analyzed, studied, and ingrained in our muscle memory. ------


Can one learn how to swim in the land facing a different set of condition which is air, and expect to swim as well in water or even float?




The breathing and circulation of the body can make the body healthy, open up and feel relaxed. You can get an overall good feeling. -------


Walking is a healthy excercise and give good feeling. But is that healty excercise build up the structure to sustain impact from external applied force vectors?





Maybe sometimes what can be explained simple can get overcomplicated. However, that is what I got from the original question. -------


there are many types of overcomplicated.

Sometimes, overcomplicated is due to using a Thought process which is devire from other thoughts which are just thoughts give raise from thoughts which never converge with facts.

Sometimes, overcomplicated is due to it is not a simple process. Thus, not everyone can build a rokect to go to the moon.

sometimes, overcomplicated is due to someone dreaming to make a baby in 3 weeks and knowing nothing about one has to have a partner and it has to take months.

Sometimes, over complicated is due to one is just not listening. similar to a doctor persribe the RX before even the patient done with the description of the sickness.


just human. thus, life is complex.

[WCis4me]

Hi,
Just had to let you know I found out the author of the Quote you liked and then some was Andy Rooney.

Take care,
Vicky

[anerlich]

why some is more effective then others?

Are you trying to say that Taiji and WC are better for treating depression than walking 30 minutes a day, or any other forms of exercise?

If so, why?

And based on what clinical studies?

Why is SLT better at breaking the cycle of depression than, say, jumping on a trampoline?


Labelling what ever mind/body training as esoteric mental baggage itself is an act of conciousnesss that stick to a particular believe selection.

I try to avoid labelling and sticking to particular believe selections [sic]. If I didn't, I might make the mistake of labelling you as a condescending Zen wannabe, and sticking to that believe selection [sic].

I didn't label WC/taiji as esoteric mental baggage, I said that too often they are accompanied by them (check out your own posts as proof!).

You have confused the passengers with their carry on luggage.

Please avoid trying to analyze (or generalize) my or anyone else's actions and motivations; your aptitude for the task appears limited.


Generaization, doesnt solve this issues.

Neither GENERALIZATION (hint) nor overcomplication, as you said above.


But is that healty excercise build up the structure to sustain impact from external applied force vectors?

What' does that have to do with depression? Or are we following you, on this long strange trip down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass, back to defense now?

Does SLT do that? How?

[Hendrik]

Are you trying to say that Taiji and WC are better for treating depression than walking 30 minutes a day, or any other forms of exercise? If so, why? And based on what clinical studies? Why is SLT better at breaking the cycle of depression than, say, jumping on a trampoline? ---------------

Do you have any clinical studies when you said
"I don't think Taiji or WC are better or worse than any other physical activity. "?


Try this and see what kind of exercise they do?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1564556948/qid=1092720056/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/103-2854211-1851835?v=glance&s=books




I try to avoid labelling and sticking to particular believe selections [sic]. If I didn't, I might make the mistake of labelling you as a condescending Zen wannabe, and sticking to that believe selection [sic].



Am I a Zen practitioner just like you a wing chun practitoner, or you and I both a Wing Chun Wannabe?





What' does that have to do with depression? Or are we following you, on this long strange trip down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass, back to defense now? -------


depression is a state of mind/body. fear is a state of mind/body. Trauma is a state of mind/body. how can one defense oneself witout undestand how different state of mind works?
perhaps, it is a rabit hole, perhaps it is a hole of denial of mind/body.



Does SLT do that? How? ----

What is the purpose of doing SLT if one is in denial of mind/body connection and training?
How, get out from denial thoughts and bias conciousness is the first step.

it has everything to do with AWARENESS. That stuff train in the second catagory.

[taltos]

Thanks!!

-Levi

[anerlich]

Am I a Zen practitioner just like you a wing chun practitoner, or you and I both a Wing Chun Wannabe?

I thought you wanted to avoid labels. False dichotomies, such as you present above, are the sign of an inflexible mind, perhaps one in denial.


Try this and see what kind of exercise they do?

I'm not a trauma (or any other type of) victim. Are you?

I don't need this. Where's the Wing Chun?

.
depression is a state of mind/body. fear is a state of mind/body. Trauma is a state of mind/body. how can one defense oneself witout undestand how different state of mind works?

Oh well, now you point it out the link is obvious :rolleyes:

Jellyfish, sharks, many other animals can defend themselves without such deep understanding. You keep saying how too much thought gets in the way.


What is the purpose of doing SLT if one is in denial of mind/body connection and training?

I'm not in denial of any mind/body connection. I already said I believed, and you agreed, that most forms of exercise helped depression.

Perhaps you are asking me this question because you yourself are trapped up that river in Egypt. Maybe you should try some regular walking and cut back on the SLT.


How, get out from denial thoughts and bias conciousness is the first step.

I agree, I hope you get to the stage where you can take that step at some future time, though I could see why you would find it difficult.

[Hendrik]

I agree, I hope you get to the stage where you can take that step at some future time, though I could see why you would find it difficult. -------

face it.
It is always not an agreement when the agreement is only applied for others but not oneself.
The clever wording is about feeding the ego.




Get back to the 3 catagories and the details of a set which is the topic. that is more interesting.

[WCis4me]

"or you and I both a Wing Chun Wannabe?"

I know I am ;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by WCis4me
"or you and I both a Wing Chun Wannabe?"

I know I am ;)

No one has to be one. one can be a junior Wing Chuner. One can be a kindergarden Wing Chuner. and later one grow and advance.

why be a wannabe? be one.

[PaulH]

Something never dies. True power comes from the heart.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Hendrik
No one has to be one. one can be a junior Wing Chuner. One can be a kindergarden Wing Chuner. and later one grow and advance.

why be a wannabe? be one.

Apparently my attempt at humor is dry at best.:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by WCis4me
Apparently my attempt at humor is dry at best.:D


communication with dry words is always not easy.

;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Something never dies. True power comes from the heart.



Nonresistance doesnt neccessarily mean doing nothing. All it means is that any "doing" becomes nonreactive. Remember the deep wisdom underlying the practice of eastern martial arts: Dont resist the opponent's force. Yield to overcome.
... The real "doing nothing" implies inner nonresistance and intense alertness.

The ego believes that in your resistance lies your strength, whereas in truth resistance cuts you off from Being, the only place of true power. ........



End the delution of time. Time and mind are inseparable....
To be identified with your mind is to trapped in time: the compulsion to live almost exclusively throught memory and anticipation. This creates an endless preoccupation with past and future and an unwillingness to honor and acknowledge the present moment and allow it to be. The compulsion arises because the past gives you an identity and the future holds the promise of salvation, or fulfillment in whatever form. Both are illusion. ----- Eckhart Tolle


Eckhart can explain Leong Jan's No me No standard momements. no state.... very well while others missed the marks big time.

This has to do with facing SLT in Catagory 2.

Chan is not an empty words. Using silence to subdue action, Chi Dar..... are not empty concept. Without clearly understand them, there is no way to implement them.

True power comes from heart. Kuen comes from heart. which heart is that? the resisting? the Non resisting? the fighting? the believe that the past gives one an identity and the future holds the promise of salvation, or fulfillment in whatever form, where trap oneself in the time and space?

when one calls oneself a sifu, a GM.., an identity.. there is where the time trapping started...

NOW or This instant never dies. Spring always great but it is always not the same spring.

[PaulH]

That was a very nice tea cup, Hendrik. Thanks! =)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
That was a very nice tea cup, Hendrik. Thanks! =)


There is a sale on self- Heated MuG in Cosco. $10 for 2. just plug in your car cigarete ligher adaptor and it will keep your coffee or tea always warm.

wait until someone design a self_cooling Mug!

Always flow with it. hot or cold.

[PaulH]

"Always flow with it. hot or cold. - Hendrik"

We have this into four levels:

1. Beginning level: Keep or hold his power using the fundamental basics of crossing hands.

2. 2nd level: Let go of his power

3. 3rd level: Follow his action

4. 4th level: Natural fighting or shadow boxing where you just dance with whatever tunes he plays.

So our engine is continually upgraded by each new level that we achieve.

[anerlich]

Sanford Strong's four rules of self defence:

1. Act immediately.

2. RESIST.

3. Crime scene #2 (don't let him move youelsewhere!)

4. Never give up.

Guess it depends on context or something.

[Hendrik]

Pual,


Nice catagolization.

care to post a little more specific into each?

[PaulH]

From what I understand of Gary's system, the 4 points above are the subdivisions of YM popular kuit: "Receive what comes (Keep & let go), escort what goes (Follow), and when hands free thrust forward (Attack his emptiness)"

Such WC skills require a calm and detached mind, a developed and conditioned body/mind/spirit, and a correct understanding of hand/body/leg works - its wrongs and rights (how to fix your wrong to make it right as well as how to make his right to be wrong).

The question is how do you go about to achieve these skills? As Gary put it, he had numerous students in HK, but those who actually got the system are less than the number of his fingers after many decades of teaching! The students somehow just "did not get it!" and stuck to more or less basic WC level years after years. To make a very long story mercifully short, please check out the current curriculum at his website. It contains the complete road map to these four mentioned skills. You'll find a fistful of drills for a few more skills. ZZZZZZZZZzzzz..... =)