wtf kinda punch is that?

[CanadianBadAss]

The other day I was getting one of my friends to throw a few hook punches at me... Any way he had the most messed up hook. It was sort of in-between a hook and straight punch. And none of my hook blocking/deflecting techniques were working, or they were sort of working just not very well.
So I show him how to throw a real hook, and my techniques work perfectly. But I don’t think in a real fight ill be able to correct the guys punches… Or in that split second I have before he smacks me in the face decide wether that’s more of a straight punch or a hook. So… could u guys give me some advice on this?

[whippinghand]

I guess his hook punch was the real one after all. Advice: learn how he does it. Or learn from someone who REALLY knows how to do a proper hook. Obviously, that person isn't you.

[Watchman]

It sounds like an "overhand" punch - as in an "overhand right".

When a punch comes in like an "overhand", biu sau (intercepting the punch with the knife edge of your forearm) while simultaneously hitting with the other hand should shut him down.

If the punch comes in faster than you are able to extend your biu, then a quick upward elbow (if he's punching with his right arm you lift your left elbow). The upward mottion of your elbow will intercept the punch, then immediately hit him with your other hand.

I can't stress concentrating on your simultaneous intercept/block with striking enough when you are fighting boxers -- they know how to work combos.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[northstar]

Watchman, your experience in WC is far greater than mine - would you consider this true: the biu sau is perhaps the most important block when fighting someone who is not using centreline punches? It is a very versatile block that can cover more angles than the taan. Do you agree?

[benny]

that would depend on range. ie if i was in close or in contact it would be easier to move into a tan then blocking it with that. im not saying one is better then the other but in depends on where you are at the time. so you should practice both equally. or even a fuk and use the same hand to hit by driving your elbow to collapes his arm.
but my advice is to practice with your friend and find out how to block what he throws. not every one has formal training. most of my mates have never learnt how to fight but they can and they throw punches from the weirdest angles but so will someone on the street.

[rp]

I know a bit about boxing and vt and it seems most of you are missing the point.

Firstly when you fight you don't know what the other guy's doing, boxing, TKD etc. you just react to the situation rightly or wrongly.

Secondly all this biu sau tan sau crap is fiction except in the training hall. When you are facing off and your mate does a swinging punch then you may have time to do biu sau or tan sau .....

In true fight if I throw a hook we are aleady in kissing distance. You have no time to throw block as such. You must attack the middle using your main punch/palm and knock him back for follow up stike. Its like BANG!!! Your root and forward motion are very important.

It is difficult against a big heavy guy but if you try to block and stay where you are you will be hit.

Nobody throws a mindless hook. It is from some set up.

[EmptyCup]

if a guy is really close to you and throws a hook or any type of punch coming from the outside in, you usually don't have the distance to be able to throw an effective biu

try using pow sau, the one that looks like you're cupping your ear - that is more effective when really close

otherwise use biu but don't extend you arm. Instead keep your arm up with the elbow flared to "catch" the opponent's incoming hand

or if the arm straightens, use a high tan from the inside or a seung gang (upper gang) from the outside with a stance shift...although you might not have time for that

hope this helps somewhat but i always duck or move my head back when blocking hooks since i can't block them completely 100% of the time and when i do, my arm might get pinned back from the impact. Moving my head places an added safety zone from getting hit

[Watchman]

Northstar:

What Benny said. :D He's right in saying it all depends on distance/zoning. I usually employ Biu Sau as an intercepting movement against people leading in with punces, or when they are throwing as they disengage (which is how "overhands" are usually employed).

RP:

>>>In true fight if I throw a hook we are aleady in kissing distance. You have no time to throw block as such.<<<

I think CBA was speaking of an entirely different punch than the tight hook you are talking about, which is why I had it pegged as an overhand right.

I agree that your tactics would have to change against a tight hook because of the extreme close quarters that it happens in.

>>>It is difficult against a big heavy guy but if you try to block and stay where you are you will be hit.<<<

If you use your hip shifting in conjunction with the striking motion (Yiu Ma) you'll see less difficulty against heavier guys.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Anarcho]

I feel like I should be paying Watchman for some of these responses...

Soup is good food.

[Watchman]

Your bill is in the mail, Anarcho. :D

[rogue]

Watch the Toughman contest on FX. Both guys who won this year did it with almost nothing but wild haymakers.

Never underestimate the power of a shnook!


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[dzu]

There are many variations of hooks. Some kung fu systems such as Choi Li Fut or Lama use a whipping motion and an extended, or long, bridge. The action is circular and comes in at an angle to either crash through any obstacle (hence all the arm conditioning) or enter from a different angle.

Western boxing uses a much tighter hook since the mechanics are slightly different. From what I have observed, this hook uses less whipping power from the arm itself and more rotation and torque from the hips. IMHO a horizontal elbow and a tight hook have very similar mechanics.

Keeping in mind when WC was developed and the environment it grew up in. It doesn't surprise me that many WC instructors use the more traditional kung fu 'hook' rather than the Western boxing one. This may result in some false confidence when facing the more commont Western boxing hook.

From an application perspective, I would use a lan ,tan, or biu sau against the more traditional kung fu swing. The center changes however since the power is no longer linear. Facing the shoulder of the attacking arm rather than directly on the centerline will give better structural support to your bridge. If you stay facing the centerline, or what I call the reference line, there is a good chance that the attack may get past your bridge since the power is not coming directly into your structure where you are best aligned. Naturally, footwork should press the opponent upon contact so that the second attack is disrupted before it can start.

A Western boxing hook is a different beast to deal with. Since it is so tight, you should also be able to hit the opponent. Hopefully you have established a bridge and can feel his balance and center, otherwise you are playing his game. Depending upon if you have contact with the hooking hand or not, you can smother the energy, use a bong sau/lan sau to press, or try the lan/tan/biu sau and intercept the attack. A fook sau will also work if you can bridge the hook and ride /guide it to the side. If you can guide it and overextend his rotation, you have his outside gate which is a GOOD thing. If you do try the lan/biu sau, try to face the attacking shoulder to line up your structure. Do not turn too much so that you are not facing the centerline i.e. reference line.
Try these out and whatever you do, remember that boxers also can use lien wan kuen (consecutive striking) and that second punch is not far behind. In fact, that second punch might even come from the same hand if the opponent still has his center.

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

Just to comment on dzu's points...

I agree that there is alot of misplaced confidence among martial artists. For instance whenever we train in my school to fight "other" styles, it's always some grossly exaggerated move that seems it was lifted from some cliche martial arts comedy :) I mean, the "hooks" we train to defend against look like arm swinging haymakers from old westerns or something

Real hooks are like dzu said- more like horizontal elbows and are a whole different story in terms of blocking than the other ones we train to block, which nobody throws this day and age if they ever did in the past to begin with.

[benny]

i dont know about other schools but when we do stuff like that we just get the people that did boxing to punch and kickboxer/karate/tkd people to kick. if you think that you are doing stuff that does make any sence to you then why not ask your instructor why.
i like to train with boxers and other styles every now and then anyway.
and if your in kissing range then i have already stuffed up like 20 times as i should be smashing you well before then.

[whippinghand]

It's easy to say "should be" or "would have", but
what if he was the one who "closed the distance", and not you, do you actually know what to do when you're that close?

[rogue]

I agree with you there WH.

"I mean, the "hooks" we train to defend against look like arm swinging haymakers from old westerns or something"
And they're more than likely the ones that you'll run up against. Once again watch a couple of weeks of Toughman to see this ugly technique in use.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman