Taijutsu

[blackmantis]

Hi everyone,

I was looking at a Japanese Taijutsu Manual and noticed that many of the postures looked VERY chinese. I believe Taijutsu and Ninjutsu came to Japan from China, but would be very interested if anyone knows which style Taijutsu is derived from...

Any thoughts?

S

[SevenStar]

that's a broad question - what ryu is it from?

In general, said that most jujutsu was NOT influenced by china, as there is no verifiable link between jujutsu and cma. However, there are some people who say that a kempo master learned three chin na locks and taught them to three japanese men, whom then expanded upon the techniques and founded the first three recorded styles of jujutsu. This is not proven fact, however.

I know you were asking specifically about taijutsu, but back in the day, taijutsu and jujutsu were used synonymously.

[travelsbyknight]

Taijutsu and jujutsu are two different topics. Jujutsu is a specialization taken from the samurai arts. All taijutsu means is "body movement." In ninjutsu you learn "Ninpo taijutsu."

Exotic dancers have their own taijutsu. Plumbers move with a certain taijutsu when they're working. All it means is "body movement." It's not a specific art/style. Some of it probably did come from China and India.

[byond1]

Hi,

Nice topic. The true art of ninjutsu. O.k keep in mind , i am a wing chun guy(15 years).....but i have intensivly studied the internal aspects of ninjutsu and so, understand basic tai jitsu.

O.K what is a true Ninjutsu? In my opinion, based on tons of historical recordED information, dating back to 7th threw 9th
century China, it is the "Yama bushi'..or mountain warrior priest.

In japan, in the period of the colapase of the CHinese Tang dynasty, there was a group of priests, that didnt follow the country religeion of SHinto.

Alot of esoteric Taoism made its way into Japan], due to chinese imigration..

As well , the yama bushi had a system based on a mixture of the Tang dynastty esoteric taoism, certain ideas of charkra and mudra from indian or tibetan esoteric budhism, Sun tzus art of war, Hints of SHinto, shugendo and mikkyo and who knows what else.

These yama bushi, wanted only to practise there religeos beliefs. Since this was against some imperial decree, the samurai were sent to kill all the clans. Koga was a very important region, where we can still see historical migration patterns with the Tang dynasty collapse in China, in records kept in the Koga historical museum.

SO....the yama bushi, to protect themselves, developed a very well rounded, internal martial art , using SUn tzu art of war as the core.

Circumstance and environment, led to differat clans , specializing in direrant things. Some stealth, Some sabatage, some acting and infiltration, most were accomplished at assasination and guireilla war fare derived from the art of war. But, this was to protect there freedoms. Onlly out of need, did the combat, and camaflage/invisibility arise. Invisiibilty was important for them to obvously hide. If you can hide , you dont need to fight.

THey are also masters of psychology. As well, we know, Buddhism really lays out the working of the mind and thought and what the self is.

The ninpo clans, maintianed all the religeous material, and of cource only taught to those in the clans, who were belivers.. As we see in ninjusu, the kunji kuri and joba...(w;hich are still found in esoteric taoism in the exact same form) are a very sophisticated method of programing oneself and opening up all the chakras. ( 9 slashs to enlightement.)

Modern Tai jutsu nt all ""Authentic"". And actually , as you said tai jitsu is a method of motion, not technique.

Many teach the tai jutsuwithout the internal religeous teachings. So it is not yamabushi/shugendo. IT may be bushido, but they are seperate.

Tai jutsu is usually used to refer to empty hand fighting that includes, locks, throws, punchs , kicks,grappling, and the 5 element theory all mixed together.

Modern day ninpo...has most of the above but only to the advanced student. Most never get to that level, and only train the physical side. Hatsumi Master, has trained all the above, and unites, something like 16 differant ancient Japanse bushido schools on top of his ninpo. He is direct lineage holder. Some are just sword skill, some, the bow and arrow is the specialty.

Most not affiliated with Hatsumi master, are jokers and liers.

And, yes, there is a chinese influence in Tai jutsu. In fact, there are some core ideas shared between ninjitu and wing chun. Dont tell anyone. its our secret. But you heard it here first.

Wing chun derives its core application ideas from sun tzus Art of war. OOOOHHHH, someone dont belive me?? We;;ll, first you need your copy of Sun tszu, than get someone with old Wing chun kuen kuit, and it is obvious.

My friend, who i talk M.A with, learns from Hatsumis clan here in Ohio. I am not interested in learning with them, only because, they dont know the internal stuff, and that is all i am interested in.

In my opinion, Wing chun and ninjitsu are 2 of the most economical systems created, though wing chun does surpased current taijutsu quite a bit. Out of necesity, both had to evolve.

Also Japanese pirates, rumered to be ninpo, attacked Chinas ports and such, this is where i think the second major fertilization ocured with the chinese arts

If you look at real ninjutsu stealth steps, you will see something very simular to the footwork in Yuen kay san WIng chun and Ba qwa.hhhhmmmm ninja??pirates?? WIng chun?/ Opera boats/? go figure!

THanks for the conversation, never thought i would be able to share this unique information with anyone. MOst are not interested.

Brian

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Taijutsu and jujutsu are two different topics. Jujutsu is a specialization taken from the samurai arts. All taijutsu means is "body movement." In ninjutsu you learn "Ninpo taijutsu."

that's true now, but has not always been. back then, the term jujutsu was tossed around the way that "kung fu" is today - it was general, as was taijutsu - taijutsu actually means "body art". the term for body movement is "tai sabaki" and is used to describe movement and footwork.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by byond1
O.K what is a true Ninjutsu? In my opinion, based on tons of historical recordED information, dating back to 7th threw 9th
century China, it is the "Yama bushi'..or mountain warrior priest.

buddhism was introduced around the 7th century but did not become popular until around the 11th. that is also around the time when the first ninja and samurai appeared.

And, yes, there is a chinese influence in Tai jutsu. In fact, there are some core ideas shared between ninjitu and wing chun. Dont tell anyone. its our secret. But you heard it here first.

there are similarites in most MA...there are only so many ways you can perform a technique after all. However, you will not find one solid historical reference that states jjj was influenced by china. you will find various opinions, but nothing factual.


In my opinion, Wing chun and ninjitsu are 2 of the most economical systems created, though wing chun does surpased current taijutsu quite a bit. Out of necesity, both had to evolve.

imo, thai boxing should be in there.


If you look at real ninjutsu stealth steps, you will see something very simular to the footwork in Yuen kay san WIng chun and Ba qwa.hhhhmmmm ninja??pirates?? WIng chun?/ Opera boats/? go figure!

if you look at taiji, you will see some similarities to applications and principles in muay thai...go figure! Like I said, there are only so many ways to perform a technique...

THanks for the conversation, never thought i would be able to share this unique information with anyone. MOst are not interested.

Brian

On KFM we're almost always interested in anything MA related. Feel free to talk with us anytime.

[Sho]

I do not understand why Jujutsu needs to be a deriviation of something else, especially of a Chinese origin. As it has been discussed many times before, it is illogical to argue that all martial arts are have the same origin (Shaolin?). Why? Because physical fighting is an instinctive treat within human beings and anyone with some sense of organisation and order will be able to comprise a system of combat, based on personally acquired combative experience. I am studying Choy Lay Fut myself and in my personal opinion, I wouldn't care less about the origins of my style on a superficial level, because all that really matters is the intentions and methods of the system. Of course, I do not neglect the fact, that I am actually intrigued by the roots and history of the system which I am a part of, but the reason for me to pick this specific system was not because of its Chinese origins. I do not quite realise what people are trying to achieve by always trying to draw derivative connections between systems - if their intent is beyond mere interest. Is it because they're trying to claim successful martial arts as parallel to their own system in order to back their authenticity or rather their effectiveness, perhaps? To be honest, I have become rather distressed by these claims that indicate Chinese elitism.

[SevenStar]

good post. I wonder the same thing. fighting went on WAY before shaolin - heck, shuai chiao predates shaolin by at least 1000 years. As long as there has been humans, there has been fighting.

Alexander the great took his warriors through india - is it possible they picked up on pankration, studied it, made it their own, and took THAT to china? Wow...maybe kung fu is really Greek? Pankration means "all powers" when Alexander invaded india, he may have combined his art with the spiritual side demonstrated by the yogis there.... This could be the basis of Vajramushti, which translates to "thunder bolt fist" or "adamant fist" Could this be what became the foundation of taiji - the "grand ultimate fist"?

It's said Egyptians were actually the first to have an organized method of teaching combat. Is this what influenced pankration?

In the end, does it really matter?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Alexander the great took his warriors through india - is it possible they picked up on pankration, studied it, made it their own, and took THAT to china? Wow...maybe kung fu is really Greek? Alexander was born in 356 B.C.

Chinese boxing can be reliably traced back to the Chou dynasty (1111-221 B.C.), where schools of martial arts were instituted among the nobility.

Kung Fu is older than Alexander.

[SevenStar]

Troll. :p :D

Since you pointed it out though, Alexander wasn't the first of the greeks to invade india. They had been doing it since about 1500 B.C. That would make greek invasions older than kung fu.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Buby]

"if you look at taiji, you will see some similarities to applications and principles in muay thai...go figure! Like I said, there are only so many ways to perform a technique..."

True sir, in many ways.... But, let's say you throw a cross (rear hand/reverse) and I throw my sut choy (rear hand/reverse), both are straight punches coming from the rear hand...on impact would you say that they both would feel the same?


Thanks in advance,
Buby

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Troll. :p :D

Since you pointed it out though, Alexander wasn't the first of the greeks to invade india. They had been doing it since about 1500 B.C. That would make greek invasions older than kung fu. Prove it. Everything I read says Alexander was the first major contact, and that the Indians don't even consider it very important. Their history books recall it as a sort of border raid, at best. The "Aryan Invasion" from 1500 to 500 also seems to be indispute, but they were Russian anyway.

[SevenStar]

Trying. Now that I'm looking for references, they all say either vedic or aryan, which when looked up was defined as any indo-european culture. I can find references to greeks invading during that time, but they are on geocities pages and such...pages I wouldn't count as a reference.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Buby
"if you look at taiji, you will see some similarities to applications and principles in muay thai...go figure! Like I said, there are only so many ways to perform a technique..."

True sir, in many ways.... But, let's say you throw a cross (rear hand/reverse) and I throw my sut choy (rear hand/reverse), both are straight punches coming from the rear hand...on impact would you say that they both would feel the same?


Thanks in advance,
Buby

Good question - I know what you're getting at, I think, but I can't answer it from experience, as I've never been hit by a reverse from a taiji player. Consequently, I dunno if the energies feel the same or not.

[The Count]

Way back in the old days many fleeing Chinese Generals and military people chose the forested regions of Iga and Koga in Japan to hide out. Here, the Ninja Clans were developing their arts. It is said that these Chinese Generals and Military people contributed to the development of the Ninja styles.

[SevenStar]

you're referring to what was said earlier... around the 7th century is when that happened. The ninja first appeared around the 11th. It is around the 7th century that buddhism was introduced. supposedly, these people were constantly attacked and slaughtered. after 400 years, the remainder of the people split into clans. These clans trained every martial aspect possible and studied sun tzu. supposedly, these were the first ninja.

[Buby]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Good question - I know what you're getting at, I think, but I can't answer it from experience, as I've never been hit by a reverse from a taiji player. Consequently, I dunno if the energies feel the same or not.

Mr. 7*,

You are a true class act and I thank you for your honesty. Yes, I was refering to energy. Again, thank you for your response.

Take care and have a great day,
Buby

[Ben Gash]

Sevenstar, the event your referring to is more likely the mass Celtic migrations that occurred during this time (leading to them moving to and settling in Europe).
Taijutsu is an old name for Ju Jitsu.
No, JJJ does not need to be rooted in CMA, although some JJJ scholars say that there is an influence (if not necessarily a source).
Interestingly enough, I once saw some illustrations from a sixteenth century Dutch combat manual that looked very like JJJ.

[SevenStar]

someone posted a link to that manual on the main forum a year or two ago. I think blackjack posted it.

[SevenStar]

speaking of Alexander the Great:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346491/