Entering Techniques

[EmptyCup]

Hullo to you all, i'm a new member here :) I've been practicing HK Fast Hands Wing Chun (Yip Man lineage) for awhile now.

My question to you wing Chun practioners out there is how were you taught to enter into in-fighting range? My teacher taught us to step to the side and jump in with an upraised knee. This works against most opponents but against good kickers, the jumping in method is too telegraphic and you open yourself up to kicks easily.

I find it better to fake a low kick which usually leads to the opponent flinching or dropping both hands to cover, then I jump in with the knee and a gum da (pressing down block on the hands and a straight punch) This works most of the time but is not traditional wing chun, more like JKD

How were you people taught to enter, both from Yip Man lineages and from other lineages too...and how well do these techniques work? My primary concern is against good kickers, it is hard to enter into our preferred range and blocking kicks with the hands results in broken or injured arms. Many Wing Chun fighters have a hard time against the powerful kicks of TKD practioners for instance, and their constant feet shuffling disguise their intentions

A few people I talked to with backgrounds in multiple arts suggested I wait for them to come to me, but then again that is not the traditional Wing Chun way - we usually enter aggressively and keep on giving forward pressure to overwhelm the opponent

Any feedback is welcome and I apologize for the long post

[whippinghand]

Correction, that is not the Hong Kong Wing Chun way. A traditionalist would not concer himself with this issue.

[EmptyCup]

well...point taken :)

I guess I'm a modern tradionalist! But seriously, how do you deal with my question?

[EmptyCup]

I noticed you are in my city too! Where do you take your Wing Chun, if you do not mind me asking

[Armin]

Hi!

Ok, in WT we learned to get in with a front-kick - no telegraph and hi-speed entry. The upper body is protected by the hands, the lower body by the kicking leg.

If the low-kick-thingy works for ou, than it's just fine - why not use it?! But you should be aware of the dangers, as usual:

1. You rely on your enemy bringing down his hand(s) to block. What if he's a Thai-boxer? He'll just block you (like Wing Chun) with his leg and box your face with his hands.

2. It's definitely "wing chunish" to use a movement that way - if you kick, you kick. You don't fake a kick, 'cause too much energy is lost and you open yourself.

My solution (hard to explain, but I'll try, just for you): You know these fighting principles. One of them says (I have to translate form german, so I'm not sure): If the way is clear - step in. Your problem is answered by this.

The way is clear as long as your enemy/partner can't hit you (without another step) - sidekick-distance. As long as he's not in this distance there's no danger (theoretically). As he enters this distance, that's when you start to act with going forward (e. g. with a front kick), but not necessarily to hit him. Instead you try to go forward protected by hands and leg.

The good thing is: You don't have to "defend against this or that attack" - he didn't start any attack and you get him while he's preparing his attack.

The bad thing or problem is: the tendency to start too early will leave you with one leg up in the air an both hand stretched out forward, while he's stepping back.

After all, there are several good solutions to this problem, and I think everyone has to find the one that suits him or her - there can be no "allround-solution".


See (read) you,

Armin.

[EmptyCup]

Thanks for the helpful reply armin

one of my classmates suggested the front kick method or jumping in with a kick instead of a knee

it's true that a kick exposes you and leaves you vulnerable but some argue that it's better than passively moving in with the median stance or jumping in with a useless knee(although the knee is intended as a shield to protect the enterer)

anyways, thanks again armin!

[Wei Sui]

"A few people I talked to with backgrounds in multiple arts suggested I wait for them to come to me, but then again that is not the traditional Wing Chun way - we usually enter aggressively and keep on giving forward pressure to overwhelm the opponent"

***********
Empty Cup,

hmmmm...Your point about it is not proper in WC to wait for them to come in? Well, I don't necessarly agree. Remember the saying (hope it's quoted right:)). "Accept what comes, follow what leaves". Thus it wouldn't be wrong to wait for them to come (ie. kick) to you..as long as you deal with it and follow through in overwelming your opponent.

Cheers
Wei Sui

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[Martial Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My question to you wing Chun practioners out there is how were you taught to enter into in-fighting range? My teacher taught us to step to the side and jump in with an upraised knee. This works against most opponents but against good kickers, the jumping in method is too telegraphic and you open yourself up to kicks easily. [/quote]

Well just use the wedge...The way you should enter varies from the size of the person your fighting.If hes huge and your not you want to move to the side.But never jump in the air,thats stupid and it takes to much time.You want right timing when you enter and you want alot of power behind your move.


If you enter with a kick you want to keep it low and it is a good way to enter if you can see the person attaking you from quite a distance away.

If you are entering with a knee it kinda encourages you to jump so I would never knee until in knees and elbows distance so basicaly very close.I also like to pull down on the arms when I knee.

Well enough babbaling,I have to get some sleep...


Joe Kavey

[edward]

you just walk in, once you use some kind of techinque you lose

[EmptyCup]

Wei Sui-

the quote refers to hand techniques. Accept bridges when they come but when they disengage, don't give chase but rather attack straight-forwardly. At least that's from the quote i'm thinking you're referring to :)

Martial Joe-

what's the "wedge"???

Edward-

? what do you mean "just walk in"??? :confused:
if you don't use any technique you lose!!! Your teacher is still referred to as the golden ribbon boxer - how did he teach you to enter?

[Martial Joe]

EmptyCup~A wedge~You know the wing chun stance,well when your arms are in that wedge shape...and that is basicaly the wedge,and when you enter you need to keep that thing as one with your body,as one unit...

Have you ever been in a fight,and used the wedge?

[Empty Cup]

EmptyCup,

Nice screenname, man!

Empty Cup

[dzu]

The correct translation of the Kuen Kuit is "Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in". This does not just refer to the bridges as our whole body is the weapon. If my hand is trapped, I hit with the elbow. If the elbow is trapped, I hit with the shoulder, and if the shoulder is trapped, I hit with the body itself. Everything you do must follow this Kuen Kuit or the essence of WCK is not being applied.

Receive what comes doesn't mean to wait nor does it mean to chase the opponent all over the place with chain punches. It means that you don't run away or avoid the attack, but rather intercept to cut off the attack with your entire body structure. You receive the attack by establishing a bridge with proper timing and positioning and your root lets you receive the lessened force of his attack. This bridge can be a kick, a punch, a gaun sau, a lop sau, etc. It is not restricted to one thing. The tool is not as important as the timing, positioning, and body structure. With the above three, I can use any tool in response to any attack.

Another saying is "There are no unbeatable techniques". IMHO there is no all encompassing entry technique that will keep you safe when closing the gap. Just like in chi sau, we use our sensitivty to determine the opening. In this case, we must use visual sensitivity until we establish a bridge and our contact sensitivity takes over.

Our attack is not restricted to punches and kicks. Establishing the bridge itself is an attack on the opponent's center of gravity. If you use tan da, your tan sau has to have the proper intention and body structure behind it to uproot him and disrupt his attack. The striking component of tan da is not successful if the tan sau part doesn't disrupt the opponent's body structure. It is not enough to just place the hand and pose without affecting the opponent because that second strike is coming at you followed by the third and fourth etc. If they are not off balance after the first move then you will not have the advantage.

The only way to develop these skills is to get a partner and practice san sau at a distance and work your visual sensitivity, bridging footwork, body structure, timing, and positioning. Anything in WC can be used to enter. To paraphrase Sun Tzu in the Art of War, my opponent attacks first, but I arrive first.

regards,

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 07-13-01 at 10:34 AM.]

[Wei Sui]

That was a well thought/great resonse, thanks...

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[EmptyCup]

Martial Joe- oh I see...you're referring to the neutral stance pose where your arms are in front guarding the centerline. I've used it on boxers - when you enter, your arms usually touch one or more of theirs and you can gum, pak, or lap...

Empty Cup- :confused: haha! :) So there's another person with the same name as me?!?! How come I've never seen your posts here before? Sorry I chose the same thing man...I didn't know

dzu- I know there's never any one surpreme technique that is used in all circumstances but I want to know what other Wing Chun practioners use or have used against good kickers

I was taught to block straight kicks by backing up, shifting to a lateral stance, and using gum sau. This is definitely not a good way of dealing with kicks...In dealing with mid-level roundhouse kicks, I was taught to spring in with the median stance and use gang sau on the thigh. Against spinning hook kicks, to enter when the opponents back is turned (although somebody I know did this and ended up being nailed in the back of the head by the returning heel :) )

Did any of you learn to use legs in blocking legs? Somebody else in this forum posted something similar about blocking with gum sau on front kicks. Wouldn't a bong leg or tan leg be better?

[EmptyCup]

for those who want the phonetic way of saying dzu's kuen kuit, it's "loi low hui soong, lut sau jik chung"

"loi lui" means keep what's there, "hui soong" means when it's leaving escort, "lut sau jik chung" means when the hands disengage, rush forward

it's the concept of not chasing hands

[Martial Joe]

EmptyCup ~ Well yeah that is basicaly how i get contact and work off of my positioning...


...and you actualy had your name befor the other Empty Cup...he is also a new member,you have more posts then him,i think he should get a new one since no one knows him yet,it wouldnt hurt and its a good idea...

[Shadowboxer]

"Keep what comes, accompany what goes, free hands charge straight"
So far, I've learned to enter this way, Jit gerk to the knee and pak da/biu gee. Biu can turn into lop da if they respond with bil sao. Some ways to deal with front kicks are dok lop ma and taking their balance with your toh ma, jit gerk (basically just jamming the kick), I'm learning tan gerk right now and it ain't easy. Bong gerk if my right leg is intercepting opponents left leg. Also, sit ma out of the way with a gan sao to either side,preferably opponents blind side, and toh ma in crushing opponents structure. For round house kicks, try sit ma with seung gan sao(scissor gan somebody called it) with a fung gerk to the support knee or seung gan with dim gerk to the knee (no movement). Hope this helps.

[Shadowboxer]

Forgot one thing. Biu gee can turn into lop da or pak da. We do a pak/lop drill to feel which one to use. If opponent is "pressing out", then lop, if he's "pulling in" in order not to be lopped, then pak.

[dzu]

Some general suggestions that can be applicable towards many situations:

1) interception - Learn to analyze everything (punches, kicks, throws, joint locks, etc.) and find where and when the power is greatest and attack where and when it isn't. This is the simplest but highest level of skill because it's the epitomy of efficiency and directness. Keep in mind that interception is not restricted to just punches and kicks. Anything can be used to intercept.

Practice with a partner to develop the timing and positioning so that you know what your own limitations are. Do you know how much ground you can cover in one step? Do you know how long it takes to take one step? How much distance can you cover with your triangle and circling steps? How quikly can you explode into action when you detect a visual cue in the opponent? Practice intercepting with everything you can think of to find out what works for you. Practice against straight and circular attacks and unexpected angles.

2) forward intention - If you are moving backwards to defend yourself, even if it is to get out of the way, then your intention is not focused on going into the opponent and interupting his structure. You have gained no advantage and may even be at a disadvantage. The bes tyou can hope for is a stalemate where nothing has changed.

Eventually, however, you will make a mistake and get hit when you are not prepared. Don't just side step because you are afraid to get hit. Practice so that you always have the intention of going through the opponent, otherwise you will waste valuable time changing your mindset. Develop the confidence and courage to step into an attack BEFORE it builds up to full power.

For example, instead of just side stepping a side kick, use the triangle step so that your side step transitions into moving forward. Even side stepping doesn't have to step to the side. You can side step at a diagonal and still change the line but you are one step closer to closing the gap and your intention is still constantly moving forward.

Note: moving backwards can be a good thing IF you have control of the opponent's structure when you do it. If you don't, then the opponent can "escort you" as you back away.

3) body structure - This is your source of power and yor defense. You can't intercept if this isn't developed because a) you don't have the power to uproot the opponent and b) if your timing is off, you will be knocked on your ass if you catch the attack at the peak of it's power cycle. You need to learn how to transmit your power to and from the ground into the opponent from ANY contact point, not just your hands and feet.

If you do make a mistake and have to resort to chi gerk, then you need to have the root since you may be on one leg.

4) footwork - I mentioned this above, but it deserves it's own category. Practice your footwork and let your steps bring you into range. Don't leave the legs behind in your eagerness to hit the opponent. Move the legs and dan tien into the right position and the arms will be able to hit without effort. Your intention guides you where you want to go. The question is, Where is your intention?

Learn to control the distance via footwork. Once you know your own limitations you can control the distance (i.e. positioning) so that when you do move, you know that you are in range and you wont jam yourself or overextend and have to recover.

Move in the 8 directions (N, S, E, W, and in between) and practice transitioning in between, right and left side. Practice facing the centerline. Every step is to your advantage if you know what your limitations and capabilities are. Practice biu ma and bik ma (darting and pressing horse) with every step so that you can apply these two concepts.

Every step is a kick and every kick is a step. If the opponent is kicking, his standing leg and groin are the most vulnerable parts exposed. Why? Because a) he has only one leg to root with b) all of his weight is on it and it has no give if you kick the joints; all they can do is break. Why are there so many knee injuries on artifical turf? Because the cleats plant into the carpet and the player gets hit. The foot is solidly planted and the leg has nowhere to go. The knee becomes the weak point.

Your footwork, intention, timing, and positioning allow you to be in a positiong to attack whenever you move. If you side step and cannot control the distance then you miss opportunites when the opponent is vulnerable (i.e. standing on one leg!)

There is a lot of overlap between these 4 categories, but each can be isolated and trained separately.

These are guidelines I use when training with partners because that's the best way to develop the universal skills that good fighters have. THe system provides a framework and training methods, but we each have to put the time into developing the skills.

If you ask me how to defend against a front kick, I'll tell you I can intercept his kick with my own kick, intercept it by stepping and kicking the support leg, stepping and using tan gerk followed by a kick to the support leg, etc. The differece in all of the above is that each is a response to a specific set of circumstances such as my positioning relative to my opponent and when I moved. In one situation I might need to step forward and kick with my right leg, in another situation I might need to step diagnoal right and kick with my left. It's difficult to give technical answers when many of the problems can be solved using the concepts of the art.

regards,

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 07-13-01 at 03:39 PM.]

[whippinghand]

Downtown.

[CLOUD ONE]

I have been taught that entering technique.
It is quite a difficult move to master because you are flying through the air to get into fighting range. I was also taught the counter to the entry technique. There are so many ways to deal with someone entering on you that way that my conclusion is that you can only enter when your opponent has made a move.
For instance about the kicker, have you tried to enter deep so he cannot get his knee up to do a kick? or enter shallow ,so as to feint, then when he does kick you are just outside his kicking range. How about doing an entry by doing a big arc so as to cut into his center from a different angle.
If he shuffles a lot like Taikwan-do, get to know his rythm.

[EmptyCup]

The knee one? It works against beginners quite well. How were you taught to counter that? Raise your knee in return?

I would always wait for my opponent to make the first move in a real fight but in say sparring or even a challenge fight I’d like to be the first since it is much easier to hit first than counter an opponent’s initial attack. Maybe that’s because I don’t have enough faith in my abilities as of now

If I am relatively close when jumping in, he can’t get his knee up but I’m talking about a few feet distance – against good kickers it’s almost impossible to get in with Wing Chun’s clumsy stance which is too “heavy” on the back leg and telegraphed a mile away. Guys just circle around you and constantly alter their stance while keeping you at bay with strong leg work. The feint is dangerous because they’re too good to fall for that and you end up opening yourself up to a lunging kick or anything else. I do enter from a side angle by side-stepping first to either the left or right and then moving in, but this is hugely telegraphic and he can easily shift to cut into my angle.

I don’t think getting to know the rhythm helps even if I somehow find time to analyze the footwork. It’s just hard to move in on a constantly changing stance when you don’t know when a kick’s coming which you can’t block. Broken arms from a gum sau or gang sau aren’t good for fighting

Even seung ha gang and kwun sau lack enough strength to block a good kick since a normal person’s leg is twice the thickness of his arm and the speed of the kick adds even more power. Maybe I should ask a taekwondo guy how they fight each other
:)

[dzu]

That's one reason I prefer to use a 50/50 weighting as a reference horse. It provides better mobility at a distance since you can move in any direction equally well. When you need to explode in, you can cover more ground than on a back weighted stance. IMHO.

regards,

Dzu

[greedy]

empty cup

"clumsy wing chun stance"?
"heavy on the back leg"?

I've got to say that wing chun men can be among the best movers in the stand up game. Those with 50/50 stances anyway.

cheers

[EmptyCup]

I don't see how your stance can be 50/50 when you're shooting in. When your front leg is up, your weight must be on the back leg.

And in bik ma the weight's on the back leg, no?

[CLOUD ONE]

Empty Cup
What does your Sifu say about the entry?
IMO, you haven't practiced enough, you don't enter 50/50, are you attacking?
If so what are you attacking?
If you're going to enter a few feet away, the opponent will have more time to react, therefore you have to be quicker.
Have you ever tried entering from neutral or front stance?
From your discription you are entering from a left or right neutral.

[dzu]

I use 50/50 as a starting point. Obviously I cannot equally weight both legs as I move, but I also do not do the William Cheung Entry with the hop forward nor do I drag my leg trying to maintain a rear weighting. When I need to enter, I step explosively with the back leg driving and the front leg stepping. I try to stay centered as much as possible and after the step, I return to 50/50 unless something causes me to root into my rear leg.

With the weight on the back leg, I have to move more of my body weight when I explode forward. With 50/50 weighting as a starting point, some of my weight is already forward of the rear leg so I have less weight to move forward. The end result is a deeper step for the same amount of work done. ALso, it is easier for me to move in any direction since my weight is more centered at the start. That's how I do things and I have no problems stepping and entering.

regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

I enter from a neutral stance that has 50/50 weight distribution. However, as I begin to enter, I change into a median stance, the one with one foot forward and one foot back. When I do this, I push off the back leg to , as dzu put it, "explode" forward to touch the opponent's leg. from here on, when I move forward, all my weight is on the back leg as I do bik ma and puch the opponent back. If the weight is equal on both legs after contact with the opponent, there is no "force" to pressure him back. Not to mention, the stance is not as stable and one can easily get tripped or thrown onto the ground by grapplers and amateurs alike...

[dzu]

You should be able to generate force from any horse. Pressing energy is an intention and a concept, not just a static stance. If I can create the path to ground I can generate and receive force regardless of how I stand or step. The concept of rooting is the same regardless of where the weighting is. The only difference is what muscles to align the vector forces to the ground.

I'm not overly concerned about being tripped or swept from a 50/50 weighting. If I can root and sense then I can change weighting to stay rooted. I've touched hands with people from different lineages and some try to sweep because they think that some weight on the front foot = vulnerable to sweep. If I feel a sweep then I can just lift up my leg and still stay rooted WITHOUT shifting my weight back completely to the other leg. The reason this is possible is because I use the connection to my opponent as third leg, the same way I would use a kick from a 50/50 horse. It doesn't matter what your weighting is, if you can't sense with your legs and root in response, you will get swept.

regards,

Dzu

[CLOUD ONE]

I feel when you shoot forward, it is your centre, not just your arms.
When you do the entry shouldn't you be cutting into his center to get the deflection? this means a deflection also if he kicks.