how is it?

[Hendrik]

How is a great idea Wing Chun figher suppose to fight according to you?
what kind of technics accompany with what kind of power issuing?
what type of range? how will it look like?.....


care to share what is the vision in your mind?

Just post what you think is your vision on how an Idea Wing Chun figther looks.



care to share?

NO putdown on others please.

[Shawn LaShay]

Hi Hendrick'
From whatever position you're in prior to engaging (0*, 20*, 45*..etc.), get busy!! Shawn

[anerlich]

Just post what you think is your vision on how an Idea Wing Chun figther looks.

Like me, but with my broken tooth fixed and even more handsome (as if that were possible!)

There ... I didn't put anyone down (other to imply the obvious, i.e. they are not as handsome as I)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
How is a great idea Wing Chun figher suppose to fight according to you?

Simplely, directly and effectively.;)

[Hendrik]

How about this one?

http://www.wes.4mg.com/

[anerlich]

wcis4me

no accounting for taste I guess ;)

*** resists temptation to post pics from uglypeople.com ***

Seriously, seeking contact, shutting down the opponents ability to strike and defend through positioning and control, and then striking fast hard and furiously until he hits the floor. All done in a few seconds max.

After which WC's "world famous secret" groundfighting techniques come into their own :D

[Alan Lau]

I have to say the ideal WC fighter would be someone using the techniques found in the Wing Chun system in an artistic manner portrayed in (good) martial art films.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by anerlich
wcis4me

no accounting for taste I guess ;)

*** resists temptation to post pics from uglypeople.com ***


Anerlich you make me laugh
all I have to say is
:p LOL!

On my serious note I agree EXACTLY with what Amanujury said
"Simplely, directly and effectively"

Hence the people's pictures I posted. Best examples that I know of.

Vicky

[Matrix]

I really like anerlich's response since it provides me with the sense of vision that was asked for in Hendrik's question.

*Bill

[Hendrik]

like a slipery snake slide into the target without hindarence and do a simple strike.

like a laser sharp blade, sliding cutting into the flesh guiding by the bone into the "heart" elegantly. but not hinderance by the bone


just one elegant slide and one zero time accerelation strike. Just one move.


The slogan.

dropping you while you amaze by my beauty and elegant.

[PaulH]

I'll second Hendrik! I feel this kind of terror against those "One"! =)

P.S. I would add that you will never catch on what really hit you. Like a dumb and confounded oak tree, you fell while your ears are still ringing with the sound of a thunderbolt. How did it come to this?

[YongChun]

The master fighters in the Chinese movies, usually monks, handle the fight by calmly moving out of the line of fire just enough and either hit once to subdue or are able to control and neutralize without hurting. If you can do the without hurting thing, to someone trying to hurt you, then you are truly a master. That's my definition of a master.

[Vajramusti]

I like Anerlich's, Hendrik's and Ray's posts- all 3 have important elements in them.

A wing chun sifu who I know and is a friend--- did part of his wing chun schooling in HK with Koo Sang. While there he met an elderly "master"(not from the
IM line)- whose entire pole training involved - no blocking- a subtle body adjustment and a strike. Cant vouch for it but not bad as an ideal..


BTW on the "handsome" vote- the estate of the 3 stooges wouldnt let me nominate Moe as the handsomest wing chun man...but then... men are so ugly!! Compared to Halle berry, Nicole Kidman, Katherine Zeta Jones and the lady who played Yim Wing Chun and was in Crouching Dragon.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
BTW on the "handsome" vote- the estate of the 3 stooges wouldnt let me nominate Moe as the handsomest wing chun man...but then... men are so ugly!! Compared to Halle berry, Nicole Kidman, Katherine Zeta Jones and the lady who played Yim Wing Chun and was in Crouching Dragon. The actress in question is Michelle Yeoh (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000706/)

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

"The master fighters in the Chinese movies . . . . "

This is fantasy stuff, as is the legends, myths about Shaolin monks, etc. And it is a big problem -- many people get "ideas" of what they think fighting *should be* from fantasy, stories, Bruce Lee movies, etc. and they aspire to that and try and achieve that "look". All that is crap. It is nonsense. That has nothing to do with the reality of fighting.

Instead they should focus on what fighting "is" rather that what they think fighting should "look like" -- it *is* brutal, messy, intense, chaotic, where an opponent is trying their very best to resist you while at the same time pounding you -- and how to cope with what "is." You can only find out what "is" by doing it.

Regards,

Terence

[anerlich]

If you can do the without hurting thing, to someone trying to hurt you, then you are truly a master.

Sounds like submission grapplers are the true masters by that account.

But - even in the American academies where challenges are accepted, they'll submit you the first two times, but if you are stupid enough to demand further retries they WILL break your arm or choke you unconscious.

Also, even Ueshiba Sensei had to hurt someone bad to warn off the constant challengers.

[Hendrik]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can do the without hurting thing, to someone trying to hurt you, then you are truly a master.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do the "without hurting thing" is not do nothing.

It is just doing thing with non-reaction.

while doing a non-reaction thing still need a high level of skill.
is the skill give raise to a thunderbolt? a tronado? an explosion? a wind? a fire? a water? a laser cut? a..... How is it? Cant be just fighting. that is too general. fighting with what? how?

[TBay]

To an observer on the sidelines, my ideal WC fighter should display what seems like effortless efficiency, no matter what the striking distance. Almost invisible technique. Subtle evasion combined with or followed by simple but well-placed
counterattack(s). The spirit would remain calm, like the eye of a hurricane. The opponent should be looking into a face that calmly looks back...just before the lights go out.

[Simon]

An attack is made, but the attacker falls to the ground/retreats etc. Onlookers couldn't agree on discernable specific techniques from the (to be) victim.

Thats my idea of good wing chun.

[Hendrik]

When dream is no longer available for human.
When open expression is depress.
Creativity and innovation die.

and
what else live?


Once, I was in Asia.
Interviewing a room full of Design Engineers with master's and PHd degree.

I asked them,
So what is your dream.
Tell me.

I wait for 15mins.
No response.
another 10 mins,
some said dream is not practical.

How can such a place produce great Designers?
Can't.
A year later, the place collapse.

Dream is the continous of evolution or even revolution.
No dream. sooner or later everything die.


some might not agree.
But then
Look at all the articles in the magazine for past 20 years.
some of those who had dream
post thier views and raise thier voice.
and some become the leaders in thier field.

[anerlich]

Onlookers couldn't agree on discernable specific techniques from the (to be) victim.

Talk to a cop about most assaults he's taken statements on, he'll tell you the same thing.

Just jokin', yours was a good answer.

[Simon]

Originally posted by anerlich
Talk to a cop about most assaults he's taken statements on, he'll tell you the same thing.


:D so true

[YongChun]

My movie thing wasn't meant to be realistic. Movies show an ideal which may not be achievable. It is achievable if your skill level is much higher than that of your opponent or if you are much bigger, stronger and faster. Fighters can toy with non fighters.

I have met some Wing Chun people who fought very well while keeping to good form. Good people can make use of all that is in the art, doing the right thing at the right time. There is a point at which any fighter can fall apart if he is out classed.

At least in the studio we should always strive to have good form.

Over the years I have heard every single Wing Chun master badmouthed as not being able to fight. None have fought any big names. If all the stories were true then there would be no good Wing Chun fighters. For a fact, Wing Chun tends to lose in most tournaments and as Terrence points out street fights don't count and so all the Wing Chun fighting stories should be discounted. So there is really no good reason to study Wing Chun.

The examples given for good fighters are the Thai boxers and the Gracie Jujitsu people. So we should all study that instead.

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

My movie thing wasn't meant to be realistic. Movies show an ideal which may not be achievable.

**It is not an "ideal", it is fantasy - just like flying through the air.

It is achievable if your skill level is much higher than that of your opponent or if you are much bigger, stronger and faster. Fighters can toy with non fighters.

**Those of higher skills can "toy" with those of lesser skill but it won't look like those movies.

I have met some Wing Chun people who fought very well while keeping to good form. Good people can make use of all that is in the art, doing the right thing at the right time. There is a point at which any fighter can fall apart if he is out classed.

**You keep referring to these "good WCK fighters" -- who have they fought, what is the skill level of their opponents, for you to say that?

At least in the studio we should always strive to have good form.

**Focus on "form" misses the point. Good mechanics will produce good form, not the other way around; in other words, you judge form by the results produced, not how it "looks".

Over the years I have heard every single Wing Chun master badmouthed as not being able to fight. None have fought any big names. If all the stories were true then there would be no good Wing Chun fighters.

**It is simple, they can't be "Wing Chun masters" if they don't fight, since they can only develop fighting skills by fighting. If Master So-and-So didn't fight regularly as part of his training, he never developed any real fighting skill (skill in WCK); and if he doesn't continue to do it, his skill will decline. This is true in every single martial art. Do you think WCK somehow magically gives skill?

For a fact, Wing Chun tends to lose in most tournaments and as Terrence points out street fights don't count and so all the Wing Chun fighting stories should be discounted. So there is really no good reason to study Wing Chun.

**The bottom line is that you get what you train for. WCK is a very good fighting method, but it like any other art will only produce results if we train it with results in mind. If you took BJJ but didn't roll, you'd suck. It is no reflection on BJJ, it is a reflection on the training the person does.

The examples given for good fighters are the Thai boxers and the Gracie Jujitsu people. So we should all study that instead.

**No - you should instead realize that all fighters, regardless of their approach, train similarly -- that is, within certain parameters -- since they are all trying to develop skill in a fighting environment. Similarly, all those people who can't fight and haven't produced any good fighters "train" similarly. The only question is: which camp do you want to be in?

Regards,

Terence

[YongChun]

YongChun wrote:

My movie thing wasn't meant to be realistic. Movies show an ideal which may not be achievable.

**It is not an "ideal", it is fantasy - just like flying through the air.

Depends what movies you are talking about. No one would consider flying through the air as being realistic. Some movies are pretty straight forward Hung style with no fancy movements. When Jet Li applies a few low kicks and some boxing combos, that's pretty standard straight forward martial arts except that he does it with good style as would a good boxer. Ray


It is achievable if your skill level is much higher than that of your opponent or if you are much bigger, stronger and faster. Fighters can toy with non fighters.

**Those of higher skills can "toy" with those of lesser skill but it won't look like those movies.

Depends on what movies. It's very easy to make things look like movie fighting when the opponent doesn't know the first thing about fighting. Most martial artists can do that. Ray

I have met some Wing Chun people who fought very well while keeping to good form. Good people can make use of all that is in the art, doing the right thing at the right time. There is a point at which any fighter can fall apart if he is out classed.

**You keep referring to these "good WCK fighters" -- who have they fought, what is the skill level of their opponents, for you to say that?

I have met maybe half a dozen who fought pretty well. You talk as if there were no good Wing Chun fighters! I consider Kenneth Chung good, Emin Boztepe good, Winston Wan good, Patrick Chow good, Augustine Fong good, Wong Shun Leung good, Gary Lam good, William Cheung good, Roland Wong Good, Fred Kwok good. I think there are plenty of other people good who I have never met in all the Wing Chun lineages. None have fought any Gracies and neither have hundreds of other masters from the various Kung Fu styles. I believe all have fought reasonably good fighters. I would like to know what kind of fighter you are supposedly training for? Do you think you would be successful with your approach? How can we tell? Ray

At least in the studio we should always strive to have good form.

**Focus on "form" misses the point. Good mechanics will produce good form, not the other way around; in other words, you judge form by the results produced, not how it "looks".

Maybe it is my bad semantics. I don't disagree with you here. But if one of our students wins but looks like crap then I'm not impressed and would complain at him. Looks like crap means his shoulders are up, he is stiff and tense, he wiggles around too much, he doesn't keep vertical postures, he is not relaxed etc. etc. Actually in one Wing Chun school I went to the person who looked the worst had the best sensitivity and feeling in Chi sau. So I agree that optimal mechanics should produce good form. Ray

Over the years I have heard every single Wing Chun master badmouthed as not being able to fight. None have fought any big names. If all the stories were true then there would be no good Wing Chun fighters.

**It is simple, they can't be "Wing Chun masters" if they don't fight, since they can only develop fighting skills by fighting. If Master So-and-So didn't fight regularly as part of his training, he never developed any real fighting skill (skill in WCK); and if he doesn't continue to do it, his skill will decline. This is true in every single martial art. Do you think WCK somehow magically gives skill?

I would say the names I mentioned and plenty more have fought. I would like to know what would be your optimal training routine. Should a student spend maybe a month on form and chi sau and then just forget that stuff and go out and fight and fight maybe every couple of days? Who should he fight? Where do you find these good fighters to fight against? How realistic should the fighting be? Should it just involve friendly fist against fist fighting or anything goes? Is a fight with protection on really being realistic? Is the clip with the two black guys fighting what we should all be doing? - Ray

For a fact, Wing Chun tends to lose in most tournaments and as Terrence points out street fights don't count and so all the Wing Chun fighting stories should be discounted. So there is really no good reason to study Wing Chun.

**The bottom line is that you get what you train for. WCK is a very good fighting method, but it like any other art will only produce results if we train it with results in mind. If you took BJJ but didn't roll, you'd suck. It is no reflection on BJJ, it is a reflection on the training the person does.

No argument there. - Ray

The examples given for good fighters are the Thai boxers and the Gracie Jujitsu people. So we should all study that instead.

**No - you should instead realize that all fighters, regardless of their approach, train similarly -- that is, within certain parameters -- since they are all trying to develop skill in a fighting environment. Similarly, all those people who can't fight and haven't produced any good fighters "train" similarly. The only question is: which camp do you want to be in?

Whose schools do you consider to be in the first camp other than your own? And what proof is there that these schools have produced the kind of fighters you admire and we can all point to as really representing the practical art of Wing Chun? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or dispute anything you have said however your approach is very limited to a few bad guys who like to go out and look for fights. I can't see anyone who really looks to get real experience to last more than a few days or weeks before getting killed off or landing in jail.

I think that it would even be very difficult to prove that Jujitsu or Thai boxing produces fighters who are any more real than anyone else does. So far we only have sporting competitions to test any kinds of theories. Anyone entering those trains in a similar manner unless they are stupid.

Traditional schools of all sorts have produced and still produce good fighters otherwise they probably would go into extinction real fast. I think any fighting art can be made to work if the right training is put in. I consider Wing Chun to be very practical but I don't know if anyone's Wing Chun skill will handle people like Tank Abbot. However I think if you train the same weight guy with the same mentality then you should be able to match him.

For most people Wing Chun is something to improve their chances in a fight. I think the training definitely has done that for these people. However for those who keep training all their life, I think the ART offers a whole lot more. Joy has explained the various reasons we might train in Wing Chun. If we are talking about fighting against world class professional fighters then I don't know of anyone doing that. There is no money or glory in doing that. Mostly we don't have to worry about getting beat up by professional fighters who train 8 hours a day each day. Less than professional training has handled less than professional fighting on many occasions in many lineages. - Ray

Regards,

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

Whose schools do you consider to be in the first camp other than your own?

**There are many who train WCK as a fighting method. A few a here on this forum do fight as part of their training, including Ernie, Dhira, Merryprankster, and Andrew S., and it seems Victor and Phil also may be in that camp. None of them are from my lineage. I've met some others.

And what proof is there that these schools have produced the kind of fighters you admire and we can all point to as really representing the practical art of Wing Chun?

**I'm sorry, Ray, but you still just don't get it. It has nothing to do with my admiring them or their ability to "represent WCK" -- that is more nonsense. It has to do with recognizing and performing the necessary training to better their fighting skills: that they fight as part of their training. How "good" they become will depend on many factors, including innate ability, how hard they work, etc. If you want proof, look at any genuine fighter and see how they train.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or dispute anything you have said however your approach is very limited to a few bad guys who like to go out and look for fights. I can't see anyone who really looks to get real experience to last more than a few days or weeks before getting killed off or landing in jail.

**Again, you don't get it -- boxers, BJJers, MMAists, muay thai practitioners, etc. don't "go out" (I assume you mean on the "streets") and look for fights, they fight as part of their training -- that is, they work in a fighting environment (where they face genuine resistance and an opponent trying to pound them).

I think that it would even be very difficult to prove that Jujitsu or Thai boxing produces fighters who are any more real than anyone else does. So far we only have sporting competitions to test any kinds of theories. Anyone entering those trains in a similar manner unless they are stupid.

**Since you brought up "stupid", how stupid is it to believe that these guys won't be able to use their fighting skills anywhere? Many of them have proven it -- BJJ "proved" itself on the streets of Brazil before it ever became "sport" or entered MMA competitions. And how stupid is it to believe that folks that don't train similarly, who never fight, will develop fighting skills, and that those fighting skills that only work "on the street"? ;) You either have fighting skills -- and they will work anywhere -- or you don't.

Traditional schools of all sorts have produced and still produce good fighters otherwise they probably would go into extinction real fast.

**Sum Nung was a great WCK practitioner. YKS trained him to be a better fighter by, among other things, actually setting up a series of challenge fights with fighters of different styles. YKS WCK has a kuit that basically says "One becomes a better fighter by facing greater opponents." And when Rene asked Sum what the main difference he say between the "old guys" and the newer guys, Sum said (and I'm paraphrasing), "In the old days, they fought." **That was the traditional way!** What is being called the "traditional" way is nothing more than an emascualted approach practiced by nonfighters, similar to what happened to tai ji when Yang Luchan taught in Beijing -- a mass approach, devoid of fighting, focused on the non-fighting aspects (health), overflowing with "theory", etc.

I think any fighting art can be made to work if the right training is put in. I consider Wing Chun to be very practical but I don't know if anyone's Wing Chun skill will handle people like Tank Abbot. However I think if you train the same weight guy with the same mentality then you should be able to match him.

**You're correct about the "right" training needed -- that's the whole point of my posts. Forms, drills (including chi sao) won't make you a better fighter, it is only the prep work. And if folks aren't fighting they most likely don't even do those things effectively because they can't evaluate them without the feedback from fighting. The forms and drills are *exercises* to help us in our development of fighting skill; how does one know they are getting the most from the exercises or even if the exercises are working if they don't test the results of the exercise?

For most people Wing Chun is something to improve their chances in a fight. I think the training definitely has done that for these people.

**You "believe" that -- but that's a false belief. It is easily tested. Not too long ago I had a WCK guy visit me who had been doing WCK for 10 years to see what we do and train with us. He said he practiced WCK for "self-defense". So the first thing I asked him to do was to "shadow box" for me so I could see him move. He looked at me like I was crazy. He had never done that as part of his training. But he tried. Then I had him fight with one of my guys (again he looked at me like I was crazy) but told my guy to just pressure him and use only hooks, nothing more (to make it easy on my visitor). He couldn't deal with it. Then I asked him what he would do against a standing headlock. At first he said that he wouldn't let his opponent get him in a standing headlock, so I had my guy fight him again, just using hooks but slapping on standing headlocks. Then the guy said he'd need to use biting or eyejabs or groin attacks to deal with it (the typical answer). So we put him in the standing headlock and told him to get out. When he tried to bite, my guy just pulled back on his head nullifying his biting attempt. When he tried to attack the eyes, my guy just turned his head. When he tried to attack the groin, my guy drove a thumb into his eye (which is so easy since he's already holding the head in his hands) and sat down. I asked the guy, "What makes you think you can defend yourself on the street if you can't even deal with the most basic and common hold you're going face?" If you "think" you have fighting skills, put it to the test.

However for those who keep training all their life, I think the ART offers a whole lot more. Joy has explained the various reasons we might train in Wing Chun.

**Lots of people do BJJ their entire life, Helio for instance; same with boxing, muay thai, kyokushinkai, etc. That as nothing whatsoever to do with what it takes to develop greater fighting skills. Yes, there are side benefits to practicing a martial art besides developing fighting skill but the principal reason is developing fighting skills. If not, why even practice a martial art in the first place? You can get those secondary benefits from other things that don't involve fighting.

If we are talking about fighting against world class professional fighters then I don't know of anyone doing that. There is no money or glory in doing that. Mostly we don't have to worry about getting beat up by professional fighters who train 8 hours a day each day. Less than professional training has handled less than professional fighting on many occasions in many lineages.

**This discussion has nothing to do with fighting world-class pros -- just what it takes to develop better fighting skills. It is simple -- if you want to become a better swimmer, you need to get into the pool. And your pool time is directly proportional to your level of swimming skills. Exercises, the forms, drills, etc. are fine and necessary but they won't by themselves make you a better swimmer. Getting in the pool will. And there is no substitute.

Regards,

Terence

[YongChun]

Well hopefullly all these discussions if taken to heart will generate some good Wing Chun fighters that will put Wing Chun back on the map. Nevertheless you will always have the majority like in any art just practice for the fun, fitness, recreation, social aspect whatever. Those who come into Wing Chun with a fighting mentality will drift into a training regime to make their art work because they like to test their art and in doing so find out quickly what works and what doesn't.

In the old days people fought a lot but the times have changed. Now multiple armed opponents and guns are more common. The advent of the gun caused a decline in lots of the traditional martial arts. A few movies like Indiana Jones have scoffed at martial artists in general.

The reality fighters were those Gladiators who pitted themselves against each other to the death or against wild animals. As civilization evolved things became more sporting with rules and safety precautions in place.

I think Wing Chun might make a good Olympic sport which shouldn't be any more boring than Fencing, Judo or Taekwondo.

[sihing]

Since we are relating stories and such, I have one. One of the students in the school, a long term student who is presently a level 7(out of a 1 to 10 level system with 10 meaning all has been learned). We consider level 7 to be around a black belt level of fighting ability. The student in class has been a member/practitioner of our WC since 92', and his introduction to the art was a sparring session he had with a level 5 student at that time period. This student had experience in kickboxing and wanted to test the level 5 student to "see what's up" with this WC thing. The student got soundly defeated by the lv.5 student. Once his kicks were dissolved and countered, he couldn't handle the chain punch follow up of the WC student. Since that day he only practices WC, but I must say that this student is NOT consistent in his training due to many factors, but he does have natural skills. Anyways, recently this student of ours sparred with the local NHB champ. Although the WC student is taller and bigger (not more muscular, but just bigger by around 15lbs), like I said before, he doesn't train much, just a good understanding of the basics. Well the WC student I've been talking about basically had no problem with the NHB fighter, who from what I understand trains quite regularly to be ready for the NHB competitions. He even brought him into the WC school to show him a few more moves that he may be able to use in the competitions. I have many stories like this. My point, as always, is that one has to first put in the work (forms, drills, sparring, etc...) to develop all the skills and attributes needed to be successful in a fighting environment, but IMO I believe that once those skills are developed, combined with a awesome system of strategy and concepts that the WC I practice provides, anyone will have very good fighting abilities, problem is not everyone puts in the work first. Of course there are always those in each and every MA that excel and can make those techniques work, but the difference IMO is that WC provides "equal opportunity" to everybody regardless of what physical attributes they possess or don't possess. This is what I mean by "Wing Chun transcends limitations", and IMO the other MA out there do not. Hopefully everyone understands what I'm saying here. Just to clarify I am NOT saying that by just practicing WC forms and techniques in the air, will one obtain superior fighting skills, one has to have a partner available to train with, to spar with and test things out with. What I am saying that once the skills are developed then for practitioners of WC (at least the WC I practice) then you have them available to you always, and will be able to defend (fight) when needed and at a good level also.

James

[YongChun]

Tonight this guy I trained Wing Chun with cam over. I haven’t seen him for about 10 years or so because he was busy with his pharmacy business which operates six days a week from morning until night. His wife operates two other businesses and he has some young children so has really no time to train. He has gotten a little chubby since. Before that he trained about 15 years in Hong Kong doing Hung style and Preying Mantis and the look was very good like a good Wu Shu person like Jet Li (but not quite that level). Then we played with Wing Chun together for about 3 or 4 years. He then moved to another city and joined a Taekwondo club and got his black belt. Since 1988 he has not touched martial arts at all. So tonight we did some sparring, some chi sau and just fighting around. Well everything was still there. He was still a good fighter like before. He didn’t improve any but he didn’t lose too much either. I have seen this with a few people now. So I really believe once you have the skill, you aren’t going to lose too much and you aren’t going to lose your ability to defend yourself.

This friend of mine had no more interest in fighting but just wanted to do Wing Chun for Health. His health was actually failing him because of too much work and stress. So he said he just started doing the Siu Lim Tao form in a very relaxed way and in about 3 months all his energy returned, he felt very good and his Health improved dramatically. He wanted to know if I had any tape on Pan Nam Wing Chun QiGong to enhance the Health benefits but unfortunately I no longer have that. He was thinking maybe the William Cheung or WT lineage has information about that aspect of Wing Chun.

For myself I noticed that the wrestling skills I had when I was young still stayed with me all these years. I hadn’t wrestled for maybe 45 years but the past year or two have wrestled a bit and everything really was still there. So if you really train something it seems to stay in your muscle memory which probably really means your brain neurons. So if people who totally give up the fighting can still fight then for those who practice less intensive on the form, some chi sau and some light sparring then I think their levels can stay pretty high to whatever peaks they achieved before. Also I hadn’t done any Tai Chi pushing hands since the late 1980’s but when I tried pushing against fellow students who kept up their Tai Chi, I didn’t do too bad. I think there is a skills transfer between Wing Chunand Tai Chi though.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
Sounds like submission grapplers are the true masters by that account.

But - even in the American academies where challenges are accepted, they'll submit you the first two times, but if you are stupid enough to demand further retries they WILL break your arm or choke you unconscious.

Also, even Ueshiba Sensei had to hurt someone bad to warn off the constant challengers.

My logic just applies in the case of hitting arts and bladed weapons arts. - Ray

[cobra]

I say he's down really, really quick with fatal injuries, if not in a coma. You don't notice any technique because there is none. Just pure WingTsun, free-flowing, simple and effective.

[anerlich]

My logic just applies in the case of hitting arts and bladed weapons arts.

Mine applies to all arts. It's nice to think you can overcome all opponents without damaging them, but IMO (as it was with Ueshiba) it is unrealistic. Some people can't or won't recognise superiority.

[anerlich]

I say he's down really, really quick with fatal injuries, if not in a coma.

I doubt you want to put the guy that's getting in your face over a parking space in a coma or an oblong box. That's GBH, manslaughter, or murder (attempted or otherwise). You'll have plenty of jail time to reflect on how awesome WC/T is.

It's also not borne out by any of the <sarcasm>challenge matches</sarcasm> alluded to on another recent thread, or the HK rooftop challenges spoken of with so much awe and reverence. Very little damaged there other than egos and pride. If WC/T is so deadly, where are all the corpses? Why aren't all the guys with "streetfights" in triple figures all in jail and/or on death row as mass murderers?

[Redd]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
You either have fighting skills -- and they will work anywhere -- or you don't.

This is either meaningless or nonesense.

And you contradict yourself. Else where you wrote: "**Everyone is able to fight to some extent even without training just like they can swim (or flail around in the water) without training."

Both cannot be true.

Your extreme stance repeatedly results in the same incomplete and flawed argument. Too bad dogmatism buries the real value in your message.

[cobra]

1. The guy in the parking lot is not worth fighting with, walk away.

2. Don't play games, either fight or don't fight

3. If it is not life and death, it is best not to fight!!

4. Don't let your ego get you killed!!!

5. Better to reflect on it from a jail cell than my family reflecting on it at my funeral.

[anerlich]

1. What if he attacks you? Are you still going to put him in a coma or in a body bag? Assuming for a moment that you can actually so this without weapons and/or lots of luck (and would that luck be good or bad?)

2. Agreed. But you may not have the luxury of choice.

3. If it is life and death, it is better to escape/survive. Fighting should only happen if it is necessary to meet those overriding aims.

4. Don't let your ego trick you into believing WC/T will make you deadly, invulnerable, or immunised against defeat!

5. Try to resolve, defuse or escape the situation before these two options are the only ones left. Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, yadda yadda yadda. Good avice for both buddhists and those hoping to avoid both courthouse and morgue.