Why Chi Sau ?

[Whiplash]

Ok - this may come across as a silly question to some but why do we do the motions of chi sau?

I know the first answer will be something like 'to improve your sensitivity' etc. and I understand that but can anyone explain why we do it in that particular fashion?

From a non WC practitioner looking at chi sau it does look a little bit daft. Locking arms and rocking them back and forth. And as a WC practitioner I've kind of just accepted it as most do.
It's just that when I get asked by friends why I'm so engrossed by a martial art in which it's main claim to fame (so to speak) looks like patty-cake it's kind of hard to explain to them why i'm doing it. ;)
If someone on here who teaches has a good way of explaining the reasoning behind chi sau then i'd appreciate it :)

Thanks

[old jong]

It is logical that an art that relies heavily on contact must train it to the upmost.

I agree that some are more in patty-cake than serious chi sau that involves the whole body structure in motion. Good chi sau does not look or feel like patty-cake.

[sihing]

As far as doing chi-sao, we do it for contact reflexes, development of forward intention, close range fighting, trapping drills, footwork, stance work, etc...It is just a drill to develop attributes to help one succeed in close range combat, where WC is known to fight at times. I like to tell students that when you are in combat, especially at close range, you do not have time to react fast enough, so you practice chi-sao so that your arms have sort of a radar to the opening in the opponent defences and moves towards that opening with no consious thought, that's why forward intention development is paramount.

Why do we practice chi-sao in the way we do with tan/fok/bong/wu structures? Well there are many variations to the drills depending on who you training with, but the main idea is to learn how to protect the centerline and develop economy of movement in everything you do in WC. In the lineage I am with, we have first single arm chi-sao, then cross arm/parallel chi-sao in front stance then double arm chi-sao. All techniques are practiced first in a pre-determined manner then random, then pre-determined with blindfold then random with blindfold.

I remember my friends asking me the same questions, then they came to my level 10 test and understood. It's hard to explain the concept of chi-sao that's why it's best for them to go to your school and experience it for themselves.


James

[Whiplash]

Thanks for that sihing, that was what I was after :) I was lacking a sort of structured way of explaining it. It's just easier to show in action rather than words sometimes :)

The arms/radar is a good way of explaining it.

-Nick

[sihing]

Your welcome, glad to help....

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Whiplash
... it's kind of hard to explain to them why i'm doing it. ;)
If someone on here who teaches has a good way of explaining the reasoning behind chi sau then i'd appreciate it :)

Thanks

The way to explain the purpose of ChiSao to someone who does not understand the purpose of ChiSao - and really needs to know it in a nutshell - is to blast them.

If a practitioner cannot do this after training for a while, then the possibility distinctly remains that they are indeed learning patty-cake.

:cool:

[YongChun]

Chi sao teaches you what to do once arm contact has been made. There are only so many configurations possible once contact has been made. Either both arms are inside, both are outside or one arm is inside and the other is outside. When two arms are in contact either the hand is facing up on the inside or facing up on the outside or is facing down. Basically those are called Tan sau, Fook sau and Bong sau for lack of a better thing to call them. The chi sau mechanics is basically a mechanism to cycle through all the possible hand contact possibilities and during any part of the cyle an attack can be launched by either side. The other side can defend in many ways.

Other ways to just stick are possible too (other styles do it) but usually they violate the centerline idea and they don't use the Wing Chun fundamental structures of Tan, Bong and Fook.

Chi sau can also just involve Poon sau or rolling to develop the stance (being rooted) and the proper feeling and proper centerline protection and attack mechanisms. Even this part can take a long time to develop.

Once you know the basics then you can expand and expand to make Chi sau look like anything under the sun by adding any kind of attack from any style of combat. The hitting can be as realistic as people like.

After chi sau you can start from close range and attack and then start from further and further out until you have covered the whole spectrum of realistic fighting ranges.

Chi sau can also be extended to cover ground fighting. It helps if someone in the club has actual ground fighting experience to make it much more usefull. Likewise it helps if someone can really kick to train defense against kicks more realistic etc. (simulating other styles).

Chi sau is something you can at least do until you are 108 years old. That's the beauty of it. Full contact fighting where you mean to take the guys head off is just for the young and foolish or those who want to make a reputation as a ring fighter.

[AmanuJRY]

IMHO, what to tell someone who has 'no idea at all' what chi sau is...is that it's a complex drill that trains autonomic (sp?) motor reflexes and tactile sesitivity.

Also, along with this, you should explain that the 'doctrine' of WC is not 'blocking' attacks, it's intercepting (bridging) the opponet and the hand techniques are not 'blocks' but deformations of an attack.

[Hendrik]

Thus, I have heard.


when you think you have cross your set up of eternal connected brigde , lock or kam na... and going to take me down, my game just started......
it is a dirty dancing that one doesnt want to go near..


Thus, one needs the snake body enginee and the zero time/distance acceleration......and the fingers are ready to stink any time any place.
and open wide to let you come in....

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
IMHO, what to tell someone who has 'no idea at all' what chi sau is...is that it's a complex drill that trains autonomic (sp?) motor reflexes and tactile sesitivity.

Also, along with this, you should explain that the 'doctrine' of WC is not 'blocking' attacks, it's intercepting (bridging) the opponet and the hand techniques are not 'blocks' but deformations of an attack.
That was simple, but direct like WC :)

[stonecrusher69]

Hendrik,,,do you practice buddhand wing chun?

[anerlich]

Justin,

I don't think "autonomic" reflexes are what you are working on here. The autonomic nervous system regulates involuntary processes like breathing, digestion, and the like, but also more complex phenomena like the "fight or flight" or "rest and digest" patterns.

But with a few exceptions, like some being able to consciously regulate heart rate or blood pressure to some degree, the processes it regulates are beyond conscious control.

Training can help you deal with and manage the adrenal dump (an autonomic phenomenon), but cho sao don't help much for that.

Other than that nitpick, yours was a good answer.

[AmanuJRY]

My understanding was that reflexes in reaction to some types of outside stimuli (like pulling ones hand away from something that burned it, the action happens before the brain registers the stimuli) were also of the autonomic system. If I'm mistaken, my bad.

To me, this is the result we want from our chi sau, to develop the reaction (WC techniques) to the stimuli (opponents attack pressure/energy) without concious effort (or preconcieved notion of what/how/when). To have the technique so ingrained that the lower (sub-concious) regions of the brain are processing the input.

The best example I can think of are good practicans who can carry on a separate conversation while still maintaining proper structure and pressure in chi sau.

[AmanuJRY]

Actually I just found this; a parasypathetic autonomic response that we all develop a degree of concious and even subconcious control over.............going to the bathroom.:D

more info on ANS (http://www.ndrf.org/ans.htm)

[Miles Teg]

Thus, I have heard.
when you think you have cross your set up of eternal connected brigde , lock or kam na... and going to take me down, my game just started......
it is a dirty dancing that one doesnt want to go near..

Thus, one needs the snake body enginee and the zero time/distance acceleration......and the fingers are ready to stink any time any place.
and open wide to let you come in....

Thus, I have heard.


WTF!!

[Miles Teg]

Thus he who told you talks a lot of crap. ....and he wouldnt be the only one.

[YongChun]

Once I was teaching chi sau at a rec centre. We were doing the rolling action. This policeman was watching from the door. After about 20 minutes of watching he was about to go. I went to the door and asked if he had any questions. He politely said no he doesn't and thank you very much. Then I asked him if I could show him something. He said sure. So I told him to block one of my slow moving punches and he did the usual kind of Karate style blocks. Then from that I responded and we played for about 5 minutes and he could get nothing in yet I could hit him at will with control. So he was amazed.

Later he told me he had a background in boxing, Judo, army combat and police hand to hand self defense. He said what he saw looked like garbage because he just couldn't relate to it from his background. So he joined up and stayed for about 3 years until he was assigned to do some undercover work in another city.

So the best is always to let your hands do the talking. After you totally control someone then they might listen to you. Otherwise whatever you say makes no sense whatsoever. It will go in one ear and out the other. After you do this then you can relate the skills to chi sau and explain where they went wrong and how chi sau trains you to do more intelligent things than they did.

[Edmund]

Andrew is right.

You probably don't mean autonomic.
I think "somatic" is what you're after.
It's related to motor neurons rather than your sympathetic ones.




Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Actually I just found this; a parasypathetic autonomic response that we all develop a degree of concious and even subconcious control over.............going to the bathroom.:D

more info on ANS (http://www.ndrf.org/ans.htm)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Edmund
Andrew is right.

You probably don't mean autonomic.
I think "somatic" is what you're after.
It's related to motor neurons rather than your sympathetic ones.

Probably, thanx for the input.:)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
Hendrik,,,do you practice buddhand wing chun?

Nope.

I practice Wing Chun Kuen passed down from the red boat opera performer.

My sigung in Zen buddhism is Ven Hsu Yun. But in my understanding Ven Hsu Yun doesnt teach martial art.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Thus he who told you talks a lot of crap. ....and he wouldnt be the only one.


Walking down slope will make a person taller.

http://www.resort.com/~banshee/SantaCruz/MysterySpot.html

until one is there and experience on it. One will use the thinker to derive more thoughts and makes a conclusion based on thoughts and limiting thoughts.


Those who belive in the time, space .... formular can go there too. see, if the space formular hold ? if not then time, space is not universal truth.

[stonecrusher69]

May I ask who your sifu is? Ven.Hsu Yun some people say he knew wing chun.Eventhought there may not be any wriiten proof it still may be true.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
May I ask who your sifu is? Ven.Hsu Yun some people say he knew wing chun.Eventhought there may not be any wriiten proof it still may be true.


I disagree.

In my understanding,
It is very very very very very not likely that Ven Hsu Yun did Wing Chun.

My sifu is Ven. Hsuan Hua. I also know the monk decendent from Ven. Hsu Yun's other disciple from China.


Ven. Hai Den of Shao Lin and my sifu work for Hsu Yun at one time. Ven Hai Den said nothing about HsU Yun knew Wing Chun too.


Ven. Hsu Yun practice non violence. Teaching Martial art to fight is not accord to Ven Hsu Yun's mission of life. and teaching others to fight disregard of who win is indeed contradict to his mission.

Saying Ven. Hsu Yun teaches Wing Chun is similar to saying Mother Teresa went on strike for Anti War.

Ven. Hsu Yun will march for peace. But never on strike for Anti anything or fighting anything.


As said in the 6th patriach sutra:

Fighting is the thought concerning Win and lost
That is against the way of cultivation
It further gives raise to Subjective, objective, roles, and time spant ( deep into duality)
How can such a thought can lead one into Samadhi? (it Cant)


It Cant be Ven. Hsu Yun teaches one to injury others.

[stonecrusher69]

Thank you for your information.I'm doing some personal research into the Ven.Hsu Yun and his decendents.Perhaps,I could ask you a few question in private on this matter.I don't want to to bore anyone here.Also,I'm interested in your style of Wing Chun.You said a few things in other posts that raised my eye browes that I never had anyone say in public.Nothing bad of course...

Peace...

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Edmund
Andrew is right.

You probably don't mean autonomic.
I think "somatic" is what you're after.
It's related to motor neurons rather than your sympathetic ones.

Actually, after ivestigation of the 'somatic' nervous system, I'm leaning back towards 'autonomic'. Some insight;


from Encarta
The autonomic nervous system is further divided into two systems. The sympathetic nervous system, sometimes called the “fight or flight” system, increases alertness, stimulates tissue, and prepares the body for quick responses to unusual situations.

Somatic is assosiated with 'voluntary' motor responses and autonomic with 'involuntary' motor reflexes (as well as the more know involuntary processes, i.e. heart, digestion, etc.).

What I believe is that we are trying to develop our techniques to become an involuntary reflex to the stimulus. If it were to be a voluntary response (somatic) it would be processed by the cortex and therefore increasing reaction time. In short, we are trying to 'tailor' the 'fight or flight' reflexes (autonomic-sympathetic) in our bodies. Evidence has shown that the function of the cortex is limited under stress (google 'stress response' or similar), motor ability, sight, and thought are limited to 'the big picture' and minor details are impossible under these circumstances. Traing to develop control (or at least to specify) autonomic reactions increases ones ability to react with good technique and keep the cortex free for processing visual and audio stimuli.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
Thank you for your information.I'm doing some personal research into the Ven.Hsu Yun and his decendents.Perhaps,I could ask you a few question in private on this matter.I don't want to to bore anyone here.Also,I'm interested in your style of Wing Chun.You said a few things in other posts that raised my eye browes that I never had anyone say in public.Nothing bad of course...

Peace...


You are welcome.

Great to do your own research !

because no one is perfect and can knowing and correct on everything. So, more search is certainly great.


Whether it is in public or private
I post what I observe. might be right. might be wrong. I believe things which had happen in the past can be discussed about and learn. Otherwise, WCK is not going to grow.


peace

[Hendrik]

What I believe is that we are trying to develop our techniques to become an involuntary reflex to the stimulus. If it were to be a voluntary response (somatic) it would be processed by the cortex and therefore increasing reaction time. In short, we are trying to 'tailor' the 'fight or flight' reflexes (autonomic-sympathetic) in our bodies. .....------------------


Theory based on a thinking and conciousness type is great.

It is going to be difficult if the full body Awareness and the Living in Now part not being known, understood, experience, and repeatable.

instead of rely on the conciousness and habit which can trick one based on lots of conditions and moods....


Awareness means the full body awareness, Cant just be the awareness of that Tan Bong Fook. Those are just the 3 pice Kenturky fried Chicken meal which is not the full chicken.


Living in Now means capable to swithc channel on the attention and execution, such as non-reaction action, non impulsive action.... and that calll for a total "surrender" of reaction thoughts. only via surrender or settle, one is not subject to others control. there the Just do it exercute.


IE when other press one forearm in a certain way, one always react with bong as it is usually train. This is a reaction action can be predicted. That is let the Habit taking care of everything that is not Living in Now.

IE when one get mad or emotional or impulsive or fear or revenge.... and result to want to kick others ASSS. One attention has already being control by others via that mad, emotional, fear, ....... that is not Non-reaction. that is not just do it. That is Impulsive doing it control by the others.

Non reaction Just do it "knows" and selected the consequence.
Impulsive/emotional Just do it " blank" the consequence to satisfy the ego's needs.

Until one sees the ego related trace or hidden wires or reaction "spyware" in one's mind and action and be able to not following it. (having full Awareness and living in Now); logic doesnt serve right.

Because Survival is about protecting Ego and one's identity... as the first priority. Logic is going to serve the Ego/identity ( I am so and so, I am so and so sifu, I am so and so GM, I am so and so figher....) for continous its existance; Not serving proper action.

So, logic is just a computer which serve its master. and the question is who is that master? if the master is Ego, that will lead to reaction response. and one trap because control what one's Ego wants control oneself. and the opponet can just do that.

Such as putting out lots of video clips show how incompetent one's art is. showing how to beat the famous move of one's art. Get one heat up. and guess what, one is going to repeat what has been shown in the video clip. because a Heat up heart dont live in Now and not AWARE but take the clip as real. and trying to use that Heat emotion to force the propaganda to be wrong. remember when Ego wants something, it will ask the body/mind to do it as it wants --- the forcefull way without caring for the consequence or it it makes sense.


Chi Sau, until one get into these very difficult to attain state. One is just compete for speed and muscular power and how many tricks one knows more then others. Thus, when facing an opponets react very differently or not following the rule. everything collapse. But then, one is just human. and the suffering of survival to protect the identity and the existance continous.

Until one can become "transparent" and act according to "non reaction." only then one master Chi Sau. As Leong Jan Said " No Self, No fix pattern habitual move, No state, No limit." I think Leong Jan must have been there.

And ofcorse, one needs the enginee.... the physical train... the fighting experienc to get there. A three pice Kenturkey fried chiken Wing and legs are great for fast food. But it is not a whole turkey dinner in Thanks giving.


But then fantasying only on what Leong Jan can do also is about Waiting for the future salvation which never come. It is not living in Now or having a Total Awareness. It is just a way using the fantasy to feed the Ego of " I am a WCner. My ancestor can do this. Thus, I am Great."


Why Chi Sau? hahahha. LIve is very Sticky, even one's ownself is very diffcult and sticky to deal with. what is the choice without doing Chi Sau?:D


just some blue dream thoughts.

[Vajramusti]

Apples, oranges. pears and cucumbers!!

FWIW--
1. Many folks do not know or work the full gamut of chi sao training...it is not a mechanical drill, or mechanical rolling,:
it is about seeking the bridge and manipulation of the other person with self control. One can up the relationships beyond "cooperation".

2. Wing chun training can be geared for quite different goals one has in mind---basic self defense and development, wing chun competition, all styles competition, amateur, professional and all out war. The details of training will vary depending on the person, the goals and the sagacity of the trainer, coach, sifu or whatever. Different cardio and other levels involved for different activities. The requirements of the dash are differnt from the marathon. The requirements for a four round amateur fight are different than that of a pro 10 round bout..
One size or one regimen does not fit all.

If someone wants to enter top level competition they can search for good trainers who know what they are doing...(they are there) rather than just learning by doing. Someone who is his own counsellor has a fool for a client applies to the fight theory of law as well as the fight theory of fights.

3. Guns and knives and organized gangs with weapons and rights of all kinds of folks- (good and bad guys)-have made considerable inroads into old fashioned martial arts including mma. Not irrelevant but the scope has changed.

3. The same level is not for everyone- evryone need not and cannot work out with Lennox Lewis, Karelin and their level of achievements. In the search for full proof ascending skills- there is always someone- better than you. Look at the short history of
sporting athletes.

4. UFC, NHB, Pride etc are and remain as sports. Sure top flight wing chun folks have not entered them. Neither have well ranked boxers. Not enough money or principle involved for some classes of awesome individuals.

5. Fighting is not the only way to develop courage or calmness under pressure. "pacifism" is a sloppy word for disciplined non violence. Having seen personally Gandhi's courage in the face of danger and violence and being able to bring about major changes
with fewer deaths than in Mao's revolution is a humbling lesson.I
I d o NOT make a brief for absolute non violence- just an argument for a middle reflective way.

6. There are absolutely evil people- I have met some. But developing reasonable personal protection and building a cooperative community and better employment opportunities are also values worth fighting for.

joy chaudhuri(not proofread)

www.tempewingchun.com

[anerlich]

Actually, after ivestigation of the 'somatic' nervous system, I'm leaning back towards 'autonomic'.

Good argument, but no cigar from me (maybe half a cigar?).

I agree (and mentioned) that training can help us to deal, even channel, the fight or flight response. But this is mainly done IMO through incremental exposure to duress and contact.

The attributes and qualities developed via chi sao are of the motor skill and sensitivity type, which have nothing to do with the autonomic fight or flight reactions, adrenal dump, etc. They're not (generally) done in a fashion that would trigger the neurosomatic effects of the fight or flight response.

You COULD conceivably do chi sao that way (I had a session of "chi sao" with my instructor at the grading before last where I finished with two black eyes and the entire left side of my torso bruised - it wasn't really an adrenal dump situation more than an exercise in endurance and pain tolerance), but IMO that is not its purpose and there are better ways to do it.

[Edmund]

The reason I say it's not autonomic is because as I understand it, that refers to controlling your heart rate, lungs, bladder, eyes etc. I don't think it refers to motor responses. That's generally the domain of the somatic system unless you're counting your sphincter muscle.

Other than that, I understand your point.
I think you have to make the distinction between a subconscious action and a reflex though.



Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Actually, after ivestigation of the 'somatic' nervous system, I'm leaning back towards 'autonomic'. Some insight;

Somatic is assosiated with 'voluntary' motor responses and autonomic with 'involuntary' motor reflexes (as well as the more know involuntary processes, i.e. heart, digestion, etc.).

What I believe is that we are trying to develop our techniques to become an involuntary reflex to the stimulus. If it were to be a voluntary response (somatic) it would be processed by the cortex and therefore increasing reaction time. In short, we are trying to 'tailor' the 'fight or flight' reflexes (autonomic-sympathetic) in our bodies. Evidence has shown that the function of the cortex is limited under stress (google 'stress response' or similar), motor ability, sight, and thought are limited to 'the big picture' and minor details are impossible under these circumstances. Traing to develop control (or at least to specify) autonomic reactions increases ones ability to react with good technique and keep the cortex free for processing visual and audio stimuli.

[AmanuJRY]

Edmund,


The reason I say it's not autonomic is because as I understand it, that refers to controlling your heart rate, lungs, bladder, eyes etc. I don't think it refers to motor responses.

If I understood what I read correctly, the ANS also controls involuntary motor reflexes as well. Like the example I gave before, when you get burned the ANS responds by sending the message to pull away from the source before the message reaches the cortex.


Anerlich,


The attributes and qualities developed via chi sao are of the motor skill and sensitivity type, which have nothing to do with the autonomic fight or flight reactions, adrenal dump, etc.
I'm referring to the 'flinch' reflex, not the 'adrenalin dump' aspect of the ANS. Two examples, in the context of WC, that illustrate what I'm suggesting; one, the idea of training to 'launch' into correct structure/attack when a threat is sensed, without concious recognition of the threat (developing the 'flinch' reflex). Two, to respond to a bridge energy/pressure appropriatly without a concious decision/anticipation (chi sau).

I'm no professor of physiology/anatomy so my understanding of any of this (ANS/Somatic) is limited to what I can interpet from what I read, but as of yet I have not found anything that states specifically that the Somatic NS is connected with INVOLUNTARY motor reflexes, or that motor reflexes are not controlled by the ANS. I imagine if we got AndrewS in on this he could provide the nessisary definitions.

[anerlich]

Justin,

I'm no expert either. I guess the flinch reflex could involve the autonomic NS, but I'm can't go for the conditioned responses to pressure changes, etc. being related to it.

Still, I'm just guessing. I agree AndrewS' input could probably put the matter beyond doubt for us all.