original three postures of taijiquan

[taichi4eva]

I read in this Liuhebafa book and "Warriors of Silence" that taijiquan originally contained only postures and was known as "laosandao" or "old three cuts." What specifically were these three postures? Can they still be found in modern taijiquan?

[Mo Ling]

important rule to remember is, dont believe everything you read.

Most likely the author only learned three postures...
Taijiquan like most antiquities of its kind has done nothing but lose components, it was much more complicated in the past.



M


www.taijigongfu.com

[Fu-Pow]

I'd heard something like 13 postures, not 3.

[sean_stonehart]

Ditto... 13 original forms, not 3

[Mo Ling]

actually, to be clear it was not 13 postures either, the 13 is representative of "methods", not postures, or one could say 13 actions. To discuss "postures" in reality there were hundreds, as the larger taijiquan system that the Chen family had (which was compiled into fewer sets, and taught to Yang) was originally 7 sets of many postures.


M

www.taijigongfu.com

[bustr]

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.emperorslongfist.com/ELFtaichichuan.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Mo Ling
actually, to be clear it was not 13 postures either, the 13 is representative of "methods", not postures, or one could say 13 actions. To discuss "postures" in reality there were hundreds, as the larger taijiquan system that the Chen family had (which was compiled into fewer sets, and taught to Yang) was originally 7 sets of many postures.


M

www.taijigongfu.com


As in the 8 "energies" and 5 stepping techniques?
Ok that makes sense.

[SPJ]

Tai Tzu is indeed the forefather of Chan Quan.

It influences Praying Mantis, Tai Ji and many others.

I studied Tai Tzu before Mantis and Tai Ji in the 70"s.

Most of the elements of Tai Ji Quan did borrow from TZCQ. TZCQ was used to train Ming's Army.

However, Chan Si is the main theme in Tai Ji. That makes it unique and very distinct by itself.

Good posts and link.



:cool:

[yenhoi]

No-one here thinks you can look at TJQ postures as: Standard(shoulder width), Double wide (bigger than shoulders...) and One-foot-forward (70-30, 90-10, 0-100, etc...)

??

:confused:

[SPJ]

TJQ posture is designed to be flexible and for smooth weight shifting.

It is a high horse riding stance. You move your center of gravity left or right by moving knees. There are still 50-50 (Wu Wu); 40-60 (Si Liu); 30-70 (San Qi) and 0-100 when you move your foot.

It is not Gong Bu per se. But a left or right shifting Ma Bu.

Any further question?

:cool:

[SPJ]

Most Wushu practice Low horse riding stances.

However, in actual fight, everybody is assuming a high horse riding stance to be flexible. If need to, you may get lower.

In TJQ stance, you practice your stance by facing 45 to 60 degrees to your opponent's front, so you have more room to change and respond with most of your techniques.

You are at 4 corners of the opponent.

So in that sense, one of your foot is still crossly forward.

In Chen Wang Ting's 108 Chan Quan, there are also the regular stances. (If the video info is indeed the lost one)

In Chen Chan Xing's Lao Jia, there are more high horse riding stances.

Modern TJQ all come from Lao Jia, so they carry the same stances for the most part.

The shifting Ma Bu is also named (Gong Ma Bu, Ban Ma Bu, Pien Ma Bu).

In praying mantis, Si Liu Bu is called Mountain climbing stance (Deng Shan Bu).

San Qi Bu may be an empty stance (Shi Bu).

There are more variations.



:)

[Mo Ling]

"Modern TJQ all come from Lao Jia, so they carry the same stances for the most part."

Everyone has their opinion, but at least lets be clear that this is rather a large assumption. Distictions of old and new frame are themselves very very modern ideas, and are not based on any kind of fact. What is called by some as "lao jia" is simply referring to the form taught by the late Chen Zhaopi. That which is referred to by some as "xinjia" is the form taught by the late Chen Fake, and his sone Chen Zhaokui.
Xin Jia did not apparently come from Lao jia at all, seeing as Chen Fa ke was older than Chen Zhaopi and was never his student, rather he was a teacher of his and his uncle.

M

www.taijigongfu.com

[SPJ]

Yes. You are correct.

Lao Jia may refer to different Jia's by different people.

Xin Jia is refered to the teachings from Chen Fa Ke and Chen Zhao Kui.


:D

[Royal Dragon]

That Tai Tzu link is complete bullsh!t. Those guys don't even know any Tai Tzu. Thier primary form is a modern Yang set based off of Chen Manchings 37 move form with some postures taken from the General Qi Jiguang 32 move Tai Tzu Chang Chuan chart. Nothing they do goes back any further than Taiwain 1950's It's all the Chao famili's (Taiwan branch) interpritaion of modern Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua.

Yes, during the Ming Dynasty, Tai Tzu Long Fist had an "Influance" on Chen Taiji Quan, but it is not the original Tai Chi by any measure. Shaolin Pao Chui had a good influance, as did Hong Chuan and probably Zhao Bao style Taiji too (depending on who you talk to).

As for the "Original" 13 posture thing, I think "Posture" is a mis translation. It should be method I think. There were 8 "Ward off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pulldown, Splitting, Use of Shoulder, Use of Hip. "

The finale five are the five directions North, South, East, West, and Neutral. They are movments of direction as they are applied to the application of the 8 methods during combat.

In otherwards, the 5 directions are the foot work that gets the 8 methods into position needed to be functional according to the principals they work on.

5 directions = methods to gain superior position on your opponent

8 Methods = What you do once you get superior position on your opponent.

8 methods, 5 directions = 13 postures/tactics

13 postures/tactics = Original Taiji Quan

[bustr]

That Tai Tzu link is complete bullsh!t.

Yes. I've heard the same thing elsewhere. I don't really care though. It's not my fight. I only posted it because of the pics.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, I didn't realise it was for the Taiji postures.

[Palmer]

In an article with master Wang Xiangzhai he gives some info that supports the idea that there were three postures. Here's what he said and the link to the site the article is on.

"Originally this boxing consisted of three fists, also called the "old three cuts", Mr. Wang Zongyue changed it into "thirteen postures", and it was later changed into as much as one hundred and forty or fifty postures, this is the major reason for the distortion"

http://blacktaoist.com/Intropage.html

[SPJ]

Yes.

It was called Lao San Dao. Or old three sets (swords).

:cool: