Tai Chi Sword Tassel [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Sam Wiley

08-19-2004, 02:37 PM

I've never heard any meanings attached to the colors, but maybe someone out there knows better than me.

And for the record, the human body is a bit of a vacuum, hence the term "sucking" chest wound. I have heard so many times that a Fuller is included in a blade so you can pull it out of a body easier and still can't figure out where that came from. As far as I know, that's baloney. A fuller is included in many blades to lighten weight without reducing structural strength, increasing speed and ability to wield the blade accurately and with skill. In some of these blades, it also serves a decorative function, leaving a pattern-welded section of the blade inside the fuller while the rest of the blade is polished to a high luster so observers can see the quality of the blade is above average.

Remember that the earliest steel blades featuring fullers were meant for hacking and slashing, having very broad blades and rounder tips not necessarily meant for thrusting. Later thrusting blades, meant to find their way into gaps in armor, had long, very thin blades with a diamond cross section, and as a general rule, had no fuller except as decoration. And if the suction story holds true, these were the blades to need them.

Granted, this holds true for double edged blades. But I doubt it's any less true for sabers and machete-type blades. The double fullers on my gung fu broadsword would't help me pull it out of someone if I chose to thrust because they're simply not deep enough. And once again, we are talking about weapons meant to cut/hack/slash, over thrust.

On top of that, I've never heard any murderer who stabbed his victims 30 or 40 times to say they had trouble pulling the knife out for another stab, unless they hit bone or something. Length of blade wouldn't matter, it's still a vacuum.

Sam Wiley

08-19-2004, 02:41 PM

Back to the subject...
If tassels were used to attack, then why don't swords made now include the same type, like leather or wire? Why are they always those same same crappy kinds?

Also, Are sashes supposed to have the same purpose in training as tassels?

brody

08-19-2004, 02:43 PM

I just received an email saying the tassel was originally horse hair died red to distract your opponent in battle. Though I'm not sure if Yellow has any specific meaning other than I've noticed Wushu players using it.

GLW

08-19-2004, 03:30 PM

As for the tassels being the crappy kind...well that is plain old economics and what the traffic will bear.

First, a GOOD tassel costs more than the cheapo ones. I have one that was hand made and much heavier...if flows well but even so, it should be a bit thicker. and that one cost me three times as much as the cheap ones...

Second, people put up with it. You buy a sword. It has a crappy tassel on it. You take the tassel off and either put it on your rear view mirror or throw it away.

Then, if your training with someone that uses the tassel, you go get you a good one...and spend more money in the process...

And if you are training with someone that doesn't use the tassel, you save your money...

From the manufacturer's point of view, if you don't use it, you won't care if they give you crappy ones.

If you do use it, they KNOW you will buy one so why not "encourage" you to do just that by giving you a crappy one.

Caveat emptor....sort of.

count

08-19-2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by brody
What is the significance of the Red tassel at the end of the Tai Chi Sword? I've seen people use yellow tassels as well.
All tassels are yellow, until they have been used a few times. ;):D

Tak

08-20-2004, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Sam Wiley
And for the record, the human body is a bit of a vacuum, hence the term "sucking" chest wound.

The significance of a sucking chest wound is that you've punctured a lung. The sucking is from the person trying to breathe. If the whole body was a vacuum, then, when you cut yourself, stuff would get sucked INTO the wound instead of blood running OUT. And it would be a lot harder to take a dump.

Sam Wiley

08-20-2004, 09:03 AM

The body, as in the torso, not the limbs. As in the sac containing the organs and not the lungs. Inside that bag is a vacuum, outside is not. I understand why you would say the lungs, though. And things can be sucked up into the anus, with muscles or sometimes a vacuum and an accident. But that's another story.

Figures, though, about the crappy tassels. You know, you'd think paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a sword would get you the whole package. With some companies, it does, but apparently they don't produce any of the swords I have bought.

brody

08-20-2004, 12:05 PM

Sam,

-------------------
With some companies, it does, but apparently they don't produce any of the swords I have bought."
--------------------

Where are you buying your swords? It seems that most all places are either selling real flexible swords or something that is assembled poorly." I'm looking for a good pratice sword that doesn't have the competition flexiblity (spring steel?).

Sam Wiley

08-20-2004, 03:53 PM

Some of the swords I've had in the past, I can't even remember who made them. I've bought a great many swords through martial arts suppliers just to try them out, and every sword I bought from a martial arts supplier was horrible. So I no longer buy from there. Some were nothing but wall hangers billed as "combat steel" whose blades were chrome plated slag metal that bent the first time they were swung. Some were plastic and chrome plated slag metal fittings adorning what I could swear were chrome plated copper blades. I don't even know who made them but I remember what they looked like because every sword made by these same manufacturers looked the same. So I won't buy stuff even resembling them any more.

I used to have a Lung Chuan sword, which several distributors tout as real high quality. They're real, all right. Real garbage. I gave it and a couple of other of the crap swords to a student of mine, who put together a pretty good sword using the lung chuan blade and some of the other fittings, filling the handle with that gray epoxy you repair concrete with and shortening the blade by about 4 inches. It's tough, with a blade impossible to sharpen, though fairly well-balanced, and enough epoxy to keep it from falling apart. You couldn't cut butter with it, but you could break an opponent's sword and then bludgeon him to death with it.

So anyway, I don't buy their stuff, either.

Right now, after having given away most of the crap, I'm left with several swords that I believe were designed by Paul Chen. Probably my best jian is damascus steel with bronze fittings, rosewood handle and scabbard. The blade is fairly rigid, but still flexes, and the tip vibrates nicely when doing thrusting or splitting moves, etc. There is a distal taper to the blade, so the parts nearest the hilt doesn't take a great edge, but the tip is razor sharp. (I think this is what they mean in all those books when they talk about how the part near the hilt was meant for blocking and therefore left duller, not that flat edge you commonly see on lung chuan and other blades.) It's fairly well built and is balanced well. Cost me about $400, but the tassels are as long as the blade (which isn't that long anyway, but the tassels are way longer than normal, so much so that they scrape the ground if I practice with them attached.

My dao I think is also designed by Paul Chen, if I'm not mistaken. Very nice blade and fittings, though in my opinion the handle is an inch too short. This one is really tough. But again, the sash is nearly as long as the blade. And this is the one with very shallow fullers, no doubt about them being decorative.

I also have several practice swords and some wooden ones as well.

Anyway, the place I choose to get them from is Museum Replicas, which is about 20 minutes from my house. Every now and then they come out with another jian made by their own manufacturer, and that's what I'm waiting for because the last one was just awesome. But they haven't had one in a while, instead focusing on katanas. You can get Paul Chen's stuff from his own website, though.

My next sword purshase is going to be an Iai To, once I get up about $1200. A friend of mine moved here from Colorado recently and brought back an excellent sword he used for his Iaido school out there, bought from some custom sword maker whose name I can't remember. Real rayskin, silk, and hand-forged blades. I can even pick out the kind of temper line I'd like to have.

Anyway, I don't thin the swords I have are in MRL's catalog anymore, but I believe you can still find them on Paul Chen's site. Someone told me he had come out with newer models improving on flaws in the older ones, but I don't know for sure.

I've been thinking about going to MRL and talking to their designer about making their own jians again, and maybe their own daos as well. But they probably won't go for it unless they know they have a market for them. I'll have to remember to tell them to keep the tassels just so long.

Sam Wiley

08-20-2004, 03:55 PM

Sorry for rambling. I'm incredibly bored right now.

brody

08-21-2004, 10:21 PM

Can someone explain the difference between Wushu and Spring Steal?

Doug

08-23-2004, 03:33 AM

Brody,

"Wushu steel" will bend at least 90? while a "spring steel" bends around 45? without setting. From my experience, the spring steel is better suited for cutting (although I would not recommend it). Wushu steel is what really throws some people off with its flexibility. It is not historically accurate. Swords, meant for cutting and thrusting, will not bend like wushu steel. Although I recall the weight to be similar, wushu steel bends much more than spring steel.

A good version, if you can get your hands on it, is the Cold Steel dao, which was better than the wushu and spring steel stuff. It was recently let go from their line. Maybe anotehr version will show up through them.

There are some good threads at www.swordforum.com in the Chinese sword forum on tassels. One interesting theory brought up in a thread posits the idea that sashes (meaning those meant for any dao) were used to indicate which side you were on or who or what you represented.

As far as historical accuracy of sashes, I think it is pretty limited. The idea that a sash was used for combat is an interesting (funny) one. Imagine going into battle with a sash on your dao with the intent to use it as a distraction or in defense/offense. How much of a distraction will this cloth be to you and your comrades? I also tried wrapping it around my wrist but find it more of a problem than a solution to keeping my grip. Still, it could be due to the cloth I was using and not a better variant.

This is an issue that I am sure will interest Chinese sword practitioners as well as fast draws from the scabbard (an art that existed in Chinese systems and, according to some sources, still exists).

Doug M

GeneChing

08-24-2004, 05:37 PM

We've discussed tassels previously on the main forum and elsewhere - see main forum tassel thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=31006&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

And it would be a lot harder to take a dump. Tak, that's the funniest comment I've heard here in a while. I often say lol, but that time I truly did. I've worked as a volunteer emergency medic for over a decade and a half and I've treated "sucking" chest wounds. They bubble as much as they suck. Blades do not get stuck in bodies because of some mysterious vacuum. Usually, if they get stuck in bodies, it's because they get caught in the ribs and the victim reflexively contracts their ribs and traps the blade in between. A tassel is not going to help you pull that out.

Doug

08-25-2004, 02:38 AM

Yes. Tassels are everywhere, not just in China. An antique dealer friend of mine showed me a French saber with a thick, gold tassel that was obviously meant for a special military character.

Yet the thread addresses tassels, not sashes. As far as those go, they are provided for florishes with the air.

Doug M

Yang Fool

08-25-2004, 03:12 PM

Brody,
My wife and I have been using these:
http://www.martialartsmart.net/452008.html
We graduated from wood to a set of double spring steel. Every time our Sifu would say "watch the tip" we would laugh as the end of the swords slapped back and forth. About a year ago we got the above. In my opinion, for under $100.00 they beat anything I've touched. Everyone who holds these swords is impressed by the quality for the price. MHO...

brody

08-25-2004, 05:26 PM

Yang Fool,

Thanks for the link. A classmate of mine has the same sword. I was thinking of getting the natural color sword from the same maker (Paul Chen). Have you had any problems with the gaurd? I've read on other Forums that the guards are done poorly. I didn't see any problem with the one my classmate owns.

thanks.

Yang Fool

08-25-2004, 06:03 PM

No guard problems here. However they don't get any rough usage. We give them a little contact when shown the application for a particular part of the form but no hard sparring.

GeneChing

08-26-2004, 01:37 PM

Actually, the tassel lanyard theory does address sashes. Tassels were considered a dressy version of sashes for lanyards in European swords. Military presentation swords were usually the ones to bear tassels. In fact, that's the origin of sword knots. But for street fights, they used kerchiefs and sashes. If you read Aldo Nadi's book, On Fencing, he describes fighting a duel of honor with live blades. He relates how they tied his weapon in with a kerchief to serve as a lanyard and to protect the arteries of the wrist.

Doug

08-27-2004, 03:26 AM

Ah, but that does not apply to a battlefield. And I did say that I may be so used to the idea of the wushu sashes that there may be other versions I am not used to. Sword practitioners really need to practice with the sash on the sword to tell if they find it practical or not.

Another point is that you are discussing a European context. Are you aware of any Chinese technical period manuals that address tassels and sashes?

Nevertheless, you will not use a sash the same way you use a tassel. Although I tend to disregard sashes, your point about wrapping it around the wrist is the only one I consider usable. As I tried to tie a sash to my wrist, the material gave more trouble than aid. Perhaps I did it all wrong. I found the wushu sash too restrictive. Other theories abound about how to use a sash in battle, but I find those silly (be it to strike at an enemy, confuse him, or wipe blood from a blade). I would even posit that the tassel on the long-handled weapons, such as the yinyuedao (Guan Dao), are more of a distraction than a benefit (but, hey, what experience do I ahve to others with years and years behind them in terms of cutting?). In my experience, cutting with a paul Chen pudao showed how the tassel got in the way of things and could get caught on clothing or armor. Granted, I was targeting tree branches (perhaps not historically accurate targets), but the idea is still the same.

Scott Rodell at www.swordforum.com is great for helpful information about sashes and tassels. He sells antiques and has examined over two thousand swords from the Ming and Qing eras. Philip Tom is another excellent source there. Those guys make the Chinese sword forum a great place (along with others of course).

Doug M

GLW

08-27-2004, 06:25 AM

I don't find the idea of using the FLAGS on a broadsword as a wrap for the wrist...and possibly a lanyard that unrealistic.

One thing that people commonly do is look at how things appear or how they connect and infer use from that.

If you were to find the flags for a Dao useless in combat...yet were to have a use for them in cleaning the blade....and oiling it after use... where would you carry such a flag? Stuff it in your pack with everything else...where you couldn't get to it...or would you simply tie it to the Dao and remove it as needed?

Given that I know old generation people that have stated they ALWAYS had a flag or rag with them when practicing Dao...and usually it had some form of light oil on it... They would then clean the blade when finished with practice so it wouldn't rust.

If you have one of the older swords or have seen them (I had the opportunity to examine and work with a set of double Daos that dated back to Boxer Rebellion times...and the blade was better metal than the Lungchuan ones of today no doubt...but they would have rusted just as easily....

Anyway, those Lungchuan blades get some real rust grunge on them from sweat if you don't clean them...

I would also not find it unreasonable for a person to wrap their wrist for protection before battle. one less open part as a target. A flag taken off of the Dao just prior to would serve for this as well.

All conjecture...

Of course it could just be that someone somewhere sometime thought..."I want to make it more artsy-****sy...let me put a flag on it...." And if that was the case...big hairy deal. So you WOULDN'T use it that way in combat....but you WOULD in performing a routine. Taolu have techniques that train the body, train balance, train use, some that commemorate a hero or battle, and...heaven forbid...even some that provide a NICE looking transition between sections.

As many have pointed out, Taolu may help applications...but forms are NOT fighting.

GeneChing

08-27-2004, 09:40 AM

Doug, you raise the big fly in the ointment of my theory - the tassels on halberds. Now, these are significantly different in design to the tassels on swords, but my theory cannot address these at this time. One possiblity might be that it's just a reflection of what was happening with the swords, sort of a parallel accoutrement but only for decor. Another one that I've herad postulated is that they were used to secure adorning rings when the weapon bearer wanted to be stealthy. I don't particularly abide by this, and it raises another separate question about why the rings were even there in the first place.

As for the oil/blood rag, well, have you ever worked with bloody rags or oily rags? They're really messy. You're not going to want to tie that to your handle. That would defeat the whole point. If anything, you want to keep the blood/oil off your handle, so tying it to the pommel is the second stupidest place to put such a rag beyond wrapping it around the grip.

Doug

08-27-2004, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by GLW
One thing that people commonly do is look at how things appear or how they connect and infer use from that.

Right, which is my point above. Students should try this out for themselves to prove to themselves if it really works. Of course, they need accurate swords, not the spring steel or wushu steel stuff. Only then will truth for the student come out.

Given that I know old generation people that have stated they ALWAYS had a flag or rag with them when practicing Dao...and usually it had some form of light oil on it... They would then clean the blade when finished with practice so it wouldn't rust.

From what generation? After the Boxer Rebellion, I take it? Much was disoriented and distorted from that point into the new century, so even the old generation can only accurately reproduce things so mcuh. Certainly, I am generalizing quite well, and I mean no offense to your old teachers. What I am saying, though, is that without historical proof, such as from period manuals, it is, as you say, theory.

I would also not find it unreasonable for a person to wrap their wrist for protection before battle. one less open part as a target. A flag taken off of the Dao just prior to would serve for this as well.

O.K. All I say is that, when I have tried it with more accurate swords, the sash was more of a burden or pointless attempt to secure it to my wrist. I am not talking about tassels though.

And of the Qing dao I have seen, there have been no places to tie a sash (unless it was tied around the handle, which is, perhaps, silly). I will try to post a picture here. I would check out www.swordfroum.com for some good discussions on this topic.

Doug M

Doug

08-27-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by GeneChing
Doug, you raise the big fly in the ointment of my theory - the tassels on halberds.

Yeah, I don't know about those. Maybe they were used for ceremonies or rituals and removed for combat. Maybe they represent a theoretical blood trail. But why have them at all? They do not add adequate weight for cutting, and they get in the way much of the time. The same idea goes for the rings on the spine of a blade. However, those would not be removed.

Are you comliling some theoretical material together for a book or article? I would like to see that in print.

As for the oil/blood rag, well [...].

Exactly.

Doug M

GLW

08-27-2004, 04:45 PM

Well...it would be rather impossible for me to have contact with anyone PRE-BOXEr..unless you want to believe in VERY OLD people...

As for the blood rag...Don't know...but a single use would do it...I sure wouldn't use it more than one time...

As for the oil, I HAVE had oiled rags that were no big deal...depends on the oil you use and if you soak a rag or have a section that is lightly done... (byt the same token, my teacher had a rag with the sword...and the equivalent of 3 in 1 oil for after practice.

either way...anything along these lines is purely brainstorming...

Of course, there is always the possibility that they are purely for look and demo purposes. If so...so what. There are entire techniques in some routines I know that are symbolic...some that merely train balance...why not some that are put in there for the Art in Martial Art. I could see that at some point in time, someone might just want to add something that made them feel artful...who cares.

As for where they are tied...I know plenty of people that DO simply tie either tassel or flag on the bottom of the handle...In fact, my teacher from China thought it strange to do anything else with them...even when there was a place for a ring on the pommel.

Is there a reason NOT to have them in combat...Sure.

Are any of us going into combat with a sword?

Does training with flag or tassel have the possibility to reveal some imperfections in you basic techniques...Sure... So I use them fo that.

Doug

08-27-2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by GLW
Of course, there is always the possibility that they are purely for look and demo purposes. If so...so what. There are entire techniques in some routines I know that are symbolic...some that merely train balance...why not some that are put in there for the Art in Martial Art. I could see that at some point in time, someone might just want to add something that made them feel artful...who cares.

Are any of us going into combat with a sword?

Well, I care whether or not millions of people are being shown an inaccurate display of a weapon while it is portrayed as historically true. We care so that the histry that is shown is an accurate history (or as accurate as possible). It does not take a smart guy to see how far misconceptions can reach into a population's consciousness: super bendy Chinese swords, belt swords, poorly made swords in comparison to other cultures' swords, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. So it does not matter if we are going into battle with swords. What matters is whether what we are practicing is true to our respective systems.

Playing with history is an entirely ethical issue of the highest degree.

Doug M

GLW

08-28-2004, 10:58 AM

Now that is funny...given the almost total ORAL history tradition in most Chinese Styles and the complete BS that most people will argue about in regards to history.

The first part of historical depiction:

If the tassels were ornamental or purely for show and not used in battle (possibly true if tasseles and flags were used at all ) Then the depiction in a museum would be inaccurate only if they were shown in combat situations. If they were shown in display...no big thing.

If the sword being show was one that belonged to a noble...was it a ceremonial weapon (never seen use) or a real combat one....

Again, there is a lot of room for interpretation there.

Historical inaccuracies abound. I can quote chapter and verson the origins of styles...as in how many styles tie back to Yueh Fei. Orgins of styles, use, hero tales, etc... .

The issue of weapon weight...an issue in competition for ages. I know plenty of Traditional folks that use heavy but badly made weapons. I also know of plenty that claim traditional and then spend ages going though weapons to pick out the lightest one...not the best balanced or most comfortable as a traditional person would be thought to do..

Nexus

09-02-2004, 12:39 AM

Speaking from a non-historical basis:
Some practical uses of sword-tassels are as a means of leading the sword and distracting the enemy. The sword, following the tassel in a strike can confuse the opponent.
Besides that, it can be a means of balance when using the sword and can help you depending on the style you are practicing. For the internal styles, when you do horizontal strikes, meaning the sword is parallel to the ground, generating the strikes from your mid-section can encourage the tassel to swing circularly below the sword itself.

Also, as far as swords go, some of the Practical Tai Chi Swords with various length options and also a polished walnut option can be found here, done by Hanwei.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Oriental_Swords_Page_2.html

Sam Wiley

09-04-2004, 02:12 PM

Wow, this thread has blossomed. A lot of good ideas in here.

Love the comment about the sash being red until it's been used. I've cut myself enough times to be able to paint an entire wall blood red, and two of the most serious were practicing with swords.

Anyway, I have, frankly, quit caring about how the arts are depicted when it comes to historical accuracy. At least mostly. I mean, some of the claims are absolutely laughable, and when I laugh at something, probably more people are laughing, too. I laugh when people talk about using the "sword fingers" for instance to poke someone in a sword fight. You're swinging a sword and you're going to poke your opponent? On the other hand when someone says you hide a dagger in that hand and stab, slash, poke and block with it, I pay attention. I pay attention, because it's very similar to other schools of fencing and makes sense. But how can tassels circling below distract the opponent? Personally, I'd be paying more attention to the shwrp end of the sword.

I tried tying the sash around my wrist and found it to be a bit restraining agility-wise. But at least I can understand a reason for it. It would seem sound to me, except for the agility thing. Why put it on the sword when you could just tie the whole thing on your wrist?

By the way, I found that Nadi book about 2 years ago in a store and went back to get it but they'd sold it. Now I can't find it (and I hate having to order something once I've held it in my hands in store). Is there some place specific that would have it?

Doug

09-06-2004, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Sam Wiley
Anyway, I have, frankly, quit caring about how the arts are depicted when it comes to historical accuracy. At least mostly. I mean, some of the claims are absolutely laughable, and when I laugh at something, probably more people are laughing, too.
If you practice with practicality in mind, I can see where you would not care how practice is related to historical accuracy or not. However, if you train in a particular style and your interest is in accurately portraying that style, you will definitely want to be as accurate to technique as possible. In this sense, the whole of Chinese martial weapon arts is within a select style (although it is comprised of many influences). As such, we who practice the Chinese arts with tradition in mind will likely consider ourselves temporary bearers of tradition who want to see the accurate continuation of such traditions.

I laugh when people talk about using the "sword fingers" for instance to poke someone in a sword fight. You're swinging a sword and you're going to poke your opponent?
Actually, you can do that. It is not merely a poke but, as I understand it, a penetrating strike. People who punch through apples, watermelons, or sandbags with their fingers alone do so for a reason. There is more to the sword hand than laughter.

But how can tassels circling below distract the opponent? Personally, I'd be paying more attention to the shwrp end of the sword.
Exactly. While a tassel can do the very thing you describe, to learn how to use the tassel and the blade well is another story. A danger can be that a practitioner can overuse the tassel when he wants to use the blade. At swordforum.com, this issue has been discussed quite a bit. There was mention of using metal in the tassel to add to the harrassment of the opponent. I would check out the threads over there for more information.

I tried tying the sash around my wrist and found it to be a bit restraining agility-wise. But at least I can understand a reason for it. It would seem sound to me, except for the agility thing. Why put it on the sword when you could just tie the whole thing on your wrist?
Right. I found the same when tying the sash on a dao around my wrist. I do not believe anyone would want to tie a sash around the wrist when using a dao.

Doug M

GeneChing

09-07-2004, 04:59 PM

Are you comliling some theoretical material together for a book or article? I would like to see that in print. Always... it's what I do for a living. ;)

Coincidentally, I recently received a sidebar about sword tassels that both confirmed and denied my personal stance on this. It confirmed tassel use as a lanyard, more specifically with mounted swrodsman tying the sword to their saddle (this is very parallel to sword knots in the West). It also described tassles as a weapon, noting that some tassels actually had hidden barbs inside them. I'd love to see an example of one of these. It was implied that these were really long tassels...

Doug

09-07-2004, 11:43 PM

What is this sidebar you mention? Is it a source you can post here?

Thanks,

Doug M

GeneChing

09-08-2004, 09:24 AM

It'll be in an upcoming issue. Soon, in fact. A good time to subscribe (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)! ;)

Sam Wiley

09-17-2004, 10:35 PM

Well, I am trying to not care too much. I take an interest, of course, but I'm not going to stress over it. Right now, some are trying to get back to the fighting roots of the arts. In the future, people will go back to the health and exercise benefits. Further down the road, people will go back to exploring the fighting aspects...it's the fire and ice cycle. The pendulum swings because people of extreme opinion push and pull. Me, I just decided to have fun riding the swing. Makes me feel like a kid again.;)

My point about the fingers things is that you have a sword. That's it, right there. Use the sword. If you have a knife in the off hand, use it. But why finger-poke if you can stab or cut? All stories of people being able to jab through armor aside, other things are more believable and their are methods requiring less skill...such as using a knife in the off hand. In any case, most of the armor back then was silk or other cloth, or wood. I don't think Asia saw a lot of chain or other mail, or even plate. By the time they met westerners, the westerners came with guns, which practically eliminated the development of armor for a long time.

Anyway, while others are considering themselves temporary bearers of tradition and wondering why my stances aren't lower, I'm wondering why, if my stances aren't low enough, my tassels drag in the mud.:p

I guess we could debate this thing until we're all blue in the face, but we'll still never know for sure. After all, none of use has gone into battle to test a theory and everyone who has is dead.

Whoever decided to tie a scourge to a sword handle had to be one weird dude.

Doug

09-21-2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Sam Wiley
In any case, most of the armor back then was silk or other cloth, or wood. I don't think Asia saw a lot of chain or other mail, or even plate. By the time they met westerners, the westerners came with guns, which practically eliminated the development of armor for a long time.

I guess we could debate this thing until we're all blue in the face, but we'll still never know for sure. After all, none of use has gone into battle to test a theory and everyone who has is dead.

China does have a history with armor. Check out threads at www.swordforum.com for some good information on armor. In fact, check out art of specific time periods to get a good idea about what kind of armor was worn as well.

Well, we can be pretty certain. We just need to get through all the nonsense. That will take time (hopefully not as long as it will take the Chinese government to open the first emperor's tomb/pyramid.

Doug M

NorthernShaolin

09-21-2004, 03:41 PM

Doug,

Yeah, I wish they hurry it up and open the first emperor's tomb or for that matter any of the many emperor's tombs. I sure many of our questions about type and shape of weapons and maybe some written materials on exactly what fighting styles really existed in their times. So many questions but so little answers.

Doug

09-21-2004, 11:42 PM

I have a documentuary on the first emperor that is pretty good. In it, there is an English scholar of Taoism who claims that there are people in the Chinese government who are afraid of opening the tomb/pyramid. I think that the emperor is supposed to be angry at anyone who "disturbs his tomb" and would cause such terror and what not...something like that. Eh, I guess it makes sense for someone who ate jade and gold to say. Poor guy--maybe he would not have been such a ******* to the people had he avoided such a high-risk diet. But would Atkins have been better for him? I don't see anyone trying to excavate the burial grounds of the late and EVIL Dr. Atkins...

Doug M

GeneChing

09-23-2004, 05:23 PM

I totally agree about the fingers. If I had a sword, the last thing I would be thinking is I should poke him in the eye.

My presenet hypothesis is that the jianzi is actually a throwback to mudras. It's mysticism. Interestingly enough, I just read a paper that discussed the use of qi in the martial arts. Apparently there is no hard evidence of any historical documentation of qi being connected to empty-hand combat until the 16th/17th century. However, there IS mention of it connected with jian practice, and that goes back much earlier. I can't remember when exactly, but I could look it up if you're interested. Of course, jian has deep roots in Taoism, as does qigong, so there could be a significant connection. I haven't been able to map it on to a mudra that makes any sense yet though. The closest is one finger - tarjani in Tibetan Buddhism - which is a warning or threat, pointed at an opponent. That makes sense in a way. I've been trying to find the earliest example of jianzi but haven't been having too much luck so far.

Doug

02-01-2005, 02:13 PM

Gene,

Can you post some (or all if you do not mind) of the sources you use for your theory on tassels/sashes? I am particularly interested in the "sidebar" you mentioned above.

Which issue did you talk about this in? I hope I did not miss it recently.

Thanks,

Doug

littlelaugh

02-02-2005, 09:51 AM

My sifu was talking about this last week while we were doing a sword form. He also said that tassels can be used as a distraction and a weapon. Our practice swords have little wood balls embedded in the tassels. He said to imagine a heavier metal ball, and to think about how that might be used to both hit someone with and how it could be used for sword balance.

I think the heavier ball could be used to add power if you were trying swoosh somone in the eyes with the tassel ends maybe? Although I don't know if that's really feasible.

Also I was wondering, with the sword finger issue, aren't you really supposed to be holding a scabard?

Cheers,

Laugh

Doug

02-03-2005, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by littlelaugh
My sifu was talking about this last week while we were doing a sword form. He also said that tassels can be used as a distraction and a weapon. Our practice swords have little wood balls embedded in the tassels. He said to imagine a heavier metal ball, and to think about how that might be used to both hit someone with and how it could be used for sword balance.
Interesting. Could you say more about these--how heavy are they? How heavy would the metal balls be? To what degree have you found that you need to control them, and, using your estimation, how much would you need to compensate for metal ones?

I think the heavier ball could be used to add power if you were trying swoosh somone in the eyes with the tassel ends maybe? Although I don't know if that's really feasible.
This was my concern upon reading this. I have thought of this as well (I thought I was the only person fantasizing about this stuff), but I know that the extra weight at the end would have to be controlled in order to keep the strain from the sword (which might mean that a longer tassel would be needed to wrap around the other hand for control--I don't know).

Also I was wondering, with the sword finger issue, aren't you really supposed to be holding a scabard?
Well, you could be, but do not have to. The fingers could be striking implements on their own--not the focus of attack but an accessory for the person skilled in "finger skills." Certainly, a scabbard is a nice alternative. It would explain why most antique dao and jian are without scabbards. I will try to post some art that depicts Koreans using sword and scabbard when fighting the Japanese from the invasion of Korea.

Thanks,

Doug

imperialtaichi

02-03-2005, 11:51 PM

I was taught the following, (although many of you may disagree)

1. the tassel is a training tool. The sword is Yang, and the tassel is Yin. The power of the sword is generated by the Yin. During training, the RED colour of the tassel helps in focusing the intention. In a real fight, the tassel may or may not be there (real fights are ugly and chaotic and never ideal and you may not have all the right equipment at that moment!) but the power is generated the same way even if the tassel is not there.

2. The sword finger may be used for attacking, but it's main purpose is for the triangulation. Next time you practice the sword, try to project the sword to a target, while at the same time projecting the sword finger on the other hand to the same target, and generating the striking power through the finger and not the sword (again, Yin vs Yang) and you will find you can generate this soft power that you desire for your Tai Chi training.

If anyone wishes to discuss the methods with me, send me a private message; as many may disagree and I'd just be clogging up forum message spaces.

Cheers,
John

littlelaugh

02-04-2005, 09:37 AM

Hi Doug,

I don't really have much to expand upon because I am a newbie. But, IIRC, another student asked a similar question about the metal balls. My teacher responded that the metal ball wouldn't be too heavy because you wouldn't upset the balance of the sword.
I've only practiced with the wooden ones in the tassel on our swords. They are light. I never even noticed it until he pointed it out. I will ask further about it at my next class.

We do Yang style and I was looking at the Yang family website the other day. I noticed that the swords they sell have scabards. Do you know if this is true for other styles?

I would like to see the art that you've described.

Cheers,

Laugh

02-04-2005, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by GeneChing
I totally agree about the fingers. If I had a sword, the last thing I would be thinking is I should poke him in the eye.

This probably should be the case, as soon as you start thinking of your attack or defense, you then have too much intention and will not be as effective.

But, lets say you have just deflected/parried your opponent's right arm to his left/your right with your sword? You have opened their right side to attack. If you have turned your body to the right to deflect/parry and are close enough, where might your left hand naturally come to? An ideal finger strike to the side of the throat if the deflection/parry is slightly down to your right. If the defletion /parry is upwards to the right then the armpit or underside of the upper arm may be open for a finger strike. It is there, why not take advantage to use a finger strike while your sword is parrying/deflecting?

Doug

02-04-2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by littlelaugh
I don't really have much to expand upon because I am a newbie.
That does not matter. Don't let that intimidate you into silence if you have something to say.

But, IIRC, another student asked a similar question about the metal balls. My teacher responded that the metal ball wouldn't be too heavy because you wouldn't upset the balance of the sword.
Really? Because the jian is balanced on its own, and adding metal balls to the end--adding weight to one end of the weapon--will throw the balance off. Specifically, how would the balance not be upset? Does the user do something to neutralize this? How heavy would the metal balls be?

We do Yang style and I was looking at the Yang family website the other day. I noticed that the swords they sell have scabards. Do you know if this is true for other styles?
Most swords sold today do have scabbards with them.

Doug