kicking/stretching advice

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi guys - have a specific problem I could use some help with.

In Taiji we have a bunch of kicks that I'm having trouble performing slowly - I can still kick high and with power from my MT and Karate, but when I perform a waist height kick in Taiji it is a real effort to extend my leg (especially with the heel kick).

The kicks:
Facing NE, feet together, legs bent. Shift weight to right leg, foot pointing NE. Extend right leg so standing almost locked out, raise left leg and kick to N with outside edge of foot (it is like a weird angled front kick with foot turned slightly inwards).

Facing NE, feet together, legs bent. Shift weight to right leg, foot pointing NE. Extend right leg so standing almost locked out, raise left leg and kick with heel to North.

Body from - body must remain vertical, straight spine etc. Arms are spread to sides with elbows sunk, hands are same height as shoulders.

I'm guessing it is just my hamstrings are tight - I feel like I am fighting against them when I extend into the kick. At speed with power I guess I have just been blasting through the resistance.

Anyway - advice appreciated, these kicks are supposed to be relaxed and flowing :)

[blooming lotus]

some forms of taiji ( and other awesome local stylings ) have a very subtle lean bkwds as they apply this and higher kicks. I think if you are a taiji student, you will know about opening your 4 gates ( as an important aspect of acheiving range) as in your thigh and arm joints. It does make a difference for myself and for my leg / hip joint I like to stretch by either a very low monkey stance or sit straightly on your butt with your legs directly straight and toes ahead. Then I roll - stretch my chin down my legs to my feet holding my feet ( where you may or may not feel your hip begin to open as you come up ) you may here a pop here, but that is good , continue, then I point the soles of my feet together and stretch out from thighs again ( like a tight thighed, sole toucj v-hold but on the ground) until I here a larger pop. You can do this all throughtout the day and after you feel what I mean, you will understand why it works.

you can also do a horizontal foot on bar stretch, planted foot at about 45 degrees , and either rolling down to grab your foot ( spine straight) or hooking your foot on the bar and pulling out from your waist... both as good as the other, check it out and cheers

[Kaitain(UK)]

Thanks for that - it's not the kua points that are the problem, I can open effectively and raise my thigh beyond midway easily. The problem I'm having is in the extension - I can feel my hamstring really pulling when i am extending. With soles together I can push my knees to the floor with no problem and put my forehead to the ground - my ROM with legs bent is fine :)

Will weight training on my quads make a difference (I read somewhere that if opposing muscles are developed unequally then extension can become problematic)? Or is it just stretching that is required?

I'll work the sitting stretches - legs together and at 90.

[David Jamieson]

kaitan-

practice the kick. augmentation exercises without specific guaranteed results won't measure up to simply practicing the shape, again and again until you get it.

[Kaitain(UK)]

ok will try that too and stretch _afterwards_ (see I do pay attention :))

[Mr Punch]

Hate to say it but Kung Lek may well be right.

That and try facing South. Maybe the wind's ****ing you up.

[Tak]

Leaning back == bad idea. Taiji isn't taekwondo.

Probably your quads aren't strong enough to hold your leg up while extended, since in a slow taiji form you can't rely on that momentum you get when doing a hard, fast kick. Plus you have to hold your leg/foot out there rather than just snapping out/back. I agree that the best way to be able to do it is to keep working at it.

[blooming lotus]

no taiji isn't tkd , but lok at deadly wu style for example, definate lean!!

the 45 degree plant foot , horizontal foot hook to bar and strectch down is awesome for hammies. Check it out if you get a spare 5-10 mins and tell me it doesn't feel good and improve you a little in application. It's a good contingency until like KL says , you have the real strength to pull it off cold.
any tip is good tip.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I study Yang style so no leaning :)

After 4/5 days of 30 reps on each leg followed by a half-hour of stretching (following the 3 sets of 50 second stretches that was mentioned elsewhere), it seems to be doing the trick.

I noticed that the extension is far less of a problem if I pronate my foot slightly (which is how I was taught the kick, dunno why I've been doing it without the turn) e.g. kicking with my right leg, I rotate my leg slightly anti-CW but extend straight still (so the outside edge of the foot is what strikes). Given that there is no drive with the hip into the kick (and so the back is vertical, spine straight), I think this makes sense. Someone with skeletal/muscular understanding might be able to help?

Thx for the help

[Tak]

I don't see any leaning with that kick in wu style, either. Of course there are always stylistic differences, tuck/don't tuck, that kind of thing. But I thought all cma, and most especially internal cma, were pretty much anti-leaning for most kicks.

[blooming lotus]

they are, but wu style is reknowned for its' devastation and they definately have a lean. If dre dogg ( Mr Lean and ripped , Tai ji to the exclusion of most else ) 'll provide a link you'll see exactly what i mean. It's unmistakable, and I've additionally see folks generic styled pull the same kick here in china by the same leany means????? how do you explain that?? are they ( even though in country of origin) dip sh*ts or are they onto it???

Dre??? Can I get a dre - dogg pls???

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
any tip is good tip.
You see, believing this is the fundamental problem with almost everything you post.

You obviously don't know nearly as much about tai chi as you think you do, or you would never suggest leaning back. That's a very bad tip.

[blooming lotus]

and you do ha?? Well fine and generally I wouldn't recommend it, but the old guy in the links was obviously a wu old school player and played well, and the folks from other styles I've seen on my yr-ish travels throughtout China from north to deep south to the eastern board, all adapted the lean nicely. ???? I don't know, I've worked it myself for certain applications and works for me too.

[Kaitain(UK)]

it's specifically stated in my style/family that there should be no lean - the whole idea is that the kick would not be felt through the hands if touched. A lean would make that impossible. Just my system though.

Leaning would break the basic tenets of taiji as I understand them. Doesn't mean that it's wrong in someone else's taiji :)

[blooming lotus]

I've been playing qigong for over 15 yrs and tai ji as complimentary. Take on - board what you feel gels logically or you'll end up executing something wrongly and doing damage without applicative knowledge anyway.


good luck in your improvement.

[Toby]

I thought you'd only done tai ji for 10mths?

[blooming lotus]

I've been doing qigongs that even from different sources play quyite similarly to taiji since I was about 14. Officially taiji though for just over a year. i've seen and participated some good local variations though. Mainly chen this year and last year a little yand, I think I found some sun and maybe touched on some wu. Was never really fabulous, but adept enough at what I learnt.

[Ming Yue]

put your foot up on a counter or a chair, toe straight up, leg should be parallel with the ground. (the higher you start, the harder it is, but this isn't a stretch) Lift the foot slowly up off the counter as high as you can, a few inches is ok. Hold it for a bit, lower it slowly. add weights if you want. do 3 or 4 sets of 10 each leg.

[Bak Kuei]

Ming Yue... that's a pretty name. Your Platypus is cute. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

oh man this thread turn into another "lets argue with BL thread"? :(

do soem leg raises, and stand and bring your knee up and out, put on some ankle weights, but it seems you have been doing the right thing. also just hold your kicks out for a while. i found that i couldnt kick high because i had weak hips (sharp stabbing pains when i streched hard and tried to kick high) so i strengthened up my kick, now i can hold a side kick at njsut below my chest compared to being able to hold it below by hips before.

[Ming Yue]

Originally posted by Bak Kuei
Ming Yue... that's a pretty name. Your Platypus is cute. :)


hehe, thanks

...but something about your post has a kind of 'chloroform washcloth and van with chains in the back' vibe to it...


:p
:D

[Gangsterfist]

I also study yang taiji. I only know the short form and the sword form though. I have not learned the long form, but have learned some postures and applications from it. Your forms may be different but I am not sure what kicks you are talking about.

To increase my flexiblity in my legs this is what I have done for the last year or so. I have seen tremendous results. When I first started doing this I could barely bend over and grab my ankles (please refrain from any jokes here...) but now I can easily place my plam flat on the ground. This is with both legs together.

Always do some warm up. I usually do a little cardio (like jumping jacks or something) joint rolls, and some breathing exercises like buhddas breath.

Start off and do some hip, knee, and ankle rotations and get those joints warmed up. Place your feet together and bend over and go as far as you can while keeping your back straight. Hold it for a while, I usually hold it for at least 20 to 30 seconds, sometimes longer. After holding it then bend over as far as you can and bend your back this time (this is all leaning forward btw). Relax the upper body fold your arms over each other and let them hang. Hold that posture for about 30 seconds. Then stretch the arms towards the ground. Try pulling your chest towards your feet. Hold that for 30 seconds or so. This is progressive stretching you should feel you can go a little bit further every set. However, never over do it. Only go as far as you can over time this will increase flexibility.

Next, you can find a beam thats about waist height. Like the back of a chair or something. Prop one leg up on it (kinda like a balet stretch) and keep both that leg and your posted leg straight. The legs should be locked out. The leg that is on the ground should have the foot place 90 degrees from the leg on the beam. Now hold it like this for 30 seconds, then after that try pulling in your chest towards your knee. I can rest my chin on my knee caps now from doing these stretches. In yoga they say the knee to face stretches are disease killer stretches. However, I do not practice yoga but learned some stretches from a person who did yoga. If you are also wanting to meet tons of gorgeous women they all tend to do yoga. Keep that in ming too LOL!

The beam exercise also stretches out your hips too. The one where you bend over can also be done sitting down. Make sure you are flat on your seat bones (thats what i have heard them called in the bast, its your femur bone) so they are both evenly flat to the ground. Eventually you want to pull your chest towards your foot. This has very deeply improved my flexibility. It takes time but you should see results in about a few weeks. I saw results real quick and it has improved my kicks.

I hope this info helps, good luck in your training-

-GF

[Gangsterfist]

Oh one more thing always keep your leg locked out when you stretch and remember to never over do it.

Slow and steady wins the race on this one..

[blooming lotus]

I did find a link flicking through some folders tonight to lean in Wu. It's probaby a little side issue on assisting that particular kick, but it is a lean.

you can find it at : www.kabooom.com/wutaiji

[Kaitain(UK)]

Just got back from a private lesson with my teacher. Adjusted all the angles on the kicks :) The kick is more like half of an inside crescent kick now. I was still doing the kick the way it's taught to beginners.

The heel kick isn't much different to how I described it, except there is a drive into the kick with the hip - sort of a dip.

Anyway, all the stretching and stuff is very useful, so thanks to everyone. I'm shattered after that lesson - nothing like going back to the beginning and refining to take the legs out :).

Paul

[Tak]

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The requested URL /wutaiji was not found on this server.

[Gangsterfist]

Taiji definately has leaning, infact you are hardly ever (never in how we train) 50/50 weight distrobution.

Deadly wu style lol


I thought chen was deadly with all the fa-jing in their forms.

[Tak]

Having 60/40, 90/10, 99/1 weight distribution is not the same as leaning (as I define it).

[Kaitain(UK)]

yeah - stand on one leg = 100/0. No leaning.

You could be 50/50 and leaning?

[Gangsterfist]

I not gonna argue about this there is change of motion and there is uneven weight distro, and there is <gasp> leaning. It may be very minute and very small but its there.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ming Yue
hehe, thanks

...but something about your post has a kind of 'chloroform washcloth and van with chains in the back' vibe to it...


:p
:D

Tell me about the platypi again, George...

[Gangsterfist]

Actually every human on this planet practices Qigong. Sleep is a form of Qigong :D

Any of those leg stretches help out at all?

[Kaitain(UK)]

GF - the point is that leaning or not leaning does not equate to being 50/50.

The stretches are definitely helping.