Traditional versions to Wushu sets ?

[Starchaser107]

Has anyone come across classical/traditional sets that have been adapted for wushu?

does this set look familiar to anyone as having a traditional/classical relative?

chang chuan set (http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/china/2001_youth_rehearsal/youth_rehearsal_04.mpg)

[Royal Dragon]

Has some Cha fisty elements, Shaolinsihness too. A few bits remind me of North Tai tzu. Some of it looks like modern dance. I saw a flash of Wu Bu Chuan in there too. I'd say it's a mix of stuff in one set.

[David Jamieson]

I have a book that has the Cha style throughout.

It is quite clear that wu shu is drawn on heavily from this style.
The book I have is about 30 or so years old and is called "the complete Cha Chuan" (in Chinese).

In this book i see a lot of similar stuff to Bak Sil Lum, contemporary wu shu and just about anybodies version of shaolin long fist style.

I am starting to figure that Cha was highly influential for a good period of time.

Tan Tui is also seen in the Cha style. all techniques from all roads are in the style of Cha.

[Royal Dragon]

Cha Fist is supposed to have some sort of major historical ties to Tai Tzu Chang Chuan too. Infact, I've had Tai Tzu masters tell me that if I couldn't find a Tai Tzu teacher, I could learn the core principals from a good Cha Fist master instead.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
Has anyone come across classical/traditional sets that have been adapted for wushu?

does this set look familiar to anyone as having a traditional/classical relative?

chang chuan set (http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/china/2001_youth_rehearsal/youth_rehearsal_04.mpg)

Cool Video! This is the longfist form I've been doing for a year now. However, I only know the first half. Sifu hasn't shown us the second half yet because of the ariel in it. I can only do an ariel if I do a cartwheel first. I need the momentum. But this video shows me how much more work I need to do. Thanks SC107.:D

[GLW]

Cha quan is a single style but also a system.

As a style, there are a number of weapon forms and 10 barehand routines.

As a system, it is linked with Cha , Hua, Pao, Hong, and Tan...

Meaning it has the Chaquan sets, Hua Quan, Pao Quan, Hong Quan (Da Hong quan and Xioa hong Quan), and Tan Tui.

While it is rare to find someone that knows the entire system ...that means something around 20 barehand routines and NONE except Tan Tui are what you would call basic level...you do find a number of folks that know one or two from each style and so thus have a good grasp of the system.

Chaquan as a system was probably one of the most influential sytems on contemporary wushu...it has large movements that really don't have to be modified much to fit the stylistic and artistic goals of contemporary forms...and it lends itself well to embellishment with more acrobatic techniques.

But, it DOES have a strong application base and history...its just that many don't get into that aspect enough to understand it.

[herb ox]

anybody know where this was filmed?

the green carpet may be popular, but it sure reminds me of video footage I've seen of the shaolin wushu guan.

As a northern stylist, I really appreciate this form - very graceful yet it retains a certain power to the technique.

peace

herb ox

[Brad]

They're not that different.

[David Jamieson]

i would agree with brad that in overall essence, traditional kungfu and modern wushu aren't hugely different in overall shape and look.

there are very few traditional kungfu people who train to fight and instead explore the artistic expression aspects of the style and stick to a lot of form work...like wushu people.

real, hard core traditional kungfu fighting skills are simply not as common as they were in the seventies and eighties. It really has become more about form and look than it is about feel.

Not saying this is the case in totality, just saying I don't meet a lot of "kungfu" fighters anymore and most of the ones who are out their "fighting" in the tourneys and such are not coming from traditional kungfu schools, they're coming from all sorts of different backgrounds other than traditional kungfu.

[Brad]

I think how "traditional" you are or not depends as much on how you train and your attitude/intent as it does in what system/style you train. I've known of a few(not many, but a few) who train modern wushu but were probably more traditional than a lot of people claiming to be traditionalists(Javonne Holmes and Rick Jacobs come to mind right away). I've also seen some traditionalists that get even more into forms competition than the modern wushu people :)

If someone wanted to learn modern wushu for fighting, I think they could very well do that, but they probably wouldn't be able to win any forms competition due to the increased difficulties that are required now(got to spend a lot more time on just a few really difficult techniques now, than you did just 10 years ago).

[Brad]

Though I think now days if someone likes what they see in modern wushu but wants to learn the fighting aspect, they should try to track down someone who knows Cha Quan, Hua Quan, etc. very well because I don't see a lot of modern wushu coaches teaching the full art anymore(a lot don't even bother with the elementary forms :( )

[Shaolinlueb]

the only difference i see in modern to traditional is that modern has more jumps and flips. all the same punches and kicks and moves. so its all traditional to me. you can do wushu with different flavors too.

probably filmed in beijing or something, i know the owner of wushucentral trained over there and has connections with them.

[firepalm]

The video was filmed at the Shishahai, home of the Beijing Wushu Team. The performer don't know the name but is a junior team member.

The routine is a standardized one known as the Youth Long Fist form. It is often used in China for intermediate level Wushu students and can also be seen in China competitions. It can even be found in some of the private schools in Deng Feng county near the Shaolin temple.

Just thought I would clarify those points.

:cool:

[Ironwind]

By traditional do you mean unaltered since creation?

Like the Shoalin 5 animals form.

Or do you mean like realy old.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ironwind
By traditional do you mean unaltered since creation?

Like the Shoalin 5 animals form.

Or do you mean like realy old. All traditional styles can be directly traced to Moses. Everyone knows that.

[r.(shaolin)]

................................................
MasterKiller wrote:
All traditional styles can be directly traced to Moses.
................................................

:-)))) If I'm not mistaken all the animals can be directly traced to Noah. Moses was skilled in the stick and snake form.

[phoenix-eye]

Shouldn't "traditional" mean "emphasis on practical self defence" rather than "old" or "historic".

Maybe we've all started to get caught up in the traditional hype.

I though the "tradition" was one of civil defence - e.g the arts were there to defend yourself in the event of a civil attack, i.e the same ethos as the derivative okinawan karate styles, as opposed to a battlefiedl art like japanese jiujustu.

I think we've allowed ourselves to be sidetracked by the meaning of the word "traditional".

The tradition is coming out of street fights as the winner. Let's all try to get back to that "tradition".

Paul

[SifuAbel]

PE took the words right out of my head.

The form on the video looks like many types of traditional long fist. The moves were crisp and done well. There were a lot less acrobatics, than usually seen, on this video.

The main difference I see is that there seems to be no opponent in the movement. If there is a huge difference in traditional vs modern KF it's in the eyes and intent of the performer. The best wushu people(and the best Traditional people for that matter) have the eye. And thusly don't look like they are just going through the motions.

One other difference, in the long fist form at least, is that the continuity per subset seems to break up too much.

[GeneChing]

My old fencing coach used to always say "It's all in the eyes. The eyes are the mirrors of the soul." Of course, he was an old traditionalist and gave lessons without a mask, which is considering pretty dangerous nowadays.

By defination, tradition just means that it has been passed down from generation to generation. Given that, we can actually start to call modern wushu 'traditional' in the next few years. Now wouldn't that mess people up? But then again, it's easy to mess up martial artists that are illiterate. :p Of course, here in the bizarro world of CMA, traditional has taken on some kind of new meaning, probably closer to what PE and SA have just agreed upon. In a way, I do concur. I think we should try to draw a distinction between martial arts for combat (aka 'traditional' for this thread) and martial arts for performance. Modern wushu is clearly for performance. Frankly, a lot of traditional jibengong is pretty ugly, not the kind of stuff you'd really want to watch for pleasure, but the most necessary to be effective for combat.

[richard sloan]

I did some sabre in a NYC gym with a former olympic guy.

Only lasted about 3 weeks, because I enjoyed walking...

fencing is no joke.

[ninja]

That Level Five Chang Chuan video is taken from the wushucentral.com video collection. The girl is a young beijing wushu team member. There are no traditional shaolin temple mechanics in that form at all. It may seem to resemble shaolin because of what you see from shaolin performers but no old style shaolin person would ever keep a straight elbow out like that, unless it was for a performance. This is a good form to learn though if you are looking to aquire the essential wushu style movements and skills without diving into the competition form.

[Royal Dragon]

What if you performed it with good Shaolin mechanics?