Update

[daohong]

I just recieved a PM stating what seemed to be an acceptance of Mr. Scolaro's offer of airfare to taiwan in order to cross hands. I cannot tell, it came from several other people second hand and is too much trouble to track down. If it is accurate, please privately send the name as it appears in passport in order to be printed on the airline ticket. If dates need to be discussed that is great too.

[Hungfutkune]

Sorry, is this an open invitation for anybody to come to Taiwan to cross hands or is this still the same so called "friendly" challenge that was discussed in the closed thread. If it is, why don't you just PM them directly and stop wasting space on this board!

[18elders]

if it is done here on the public board, then it is open to everyone to read, no he said this or i said that in a pm, everyone is open to see it.

[ursa major]

daohong, thx for the update.

I was curious where all that 'challenge' and 'crossing hands' business went ? :confused:

Best regards,
UM.

[MantisZombie]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
Sorry, is this an open invitation for anybody to come to Taiwan to cross hands or is this still the same so called "friendly" challenge that was discussed in the closed thread. If it is, why don't you just PM them directly and stop wasting space on this board!

One could only assume that it is an update because it refferenced Mr.Scolaros offer. Unless you just wanna go,....but I doubt anyone would care if you did.
I do not se a small blurb updating this situation a waste of time; just our combined replies. :)
Sorry Bei,...Had to do it.
:)

[Hungfutkune]

I'm sorry if I came across sounding Crass, but I have been following this challenge in the other thread. As a martial artist who has only trained for about 4 years, I realize I am still only a beginer and have only scratched the surface of kung fu. I really enjoy coming to this forum as I find it very educational and meet a great deal of people that have the same interests as myself. Sometimes it's disappointing to me when I read these challenge threads, becuase I don't see them as an oppurtunity to share knowledge but a excuse to prove who is better. I have always thought Kung Fu was a method to learn to defend yourself and help people better themselves as a person. Yes that would mean that I am also against competition in tournaments. I have gone to them and enjoy watching some demonstrations and some great fights but not necesarily have I agreed that the winner is always the best Martial Artist.
That being said, I have always considered Kung Fu as a big family and it's disappointing when there is all this inner fighting especially within the same style!!
Again I hope nobody is offended by what I have to say!!

[BeiTangLang]

In-fighting will never go away while humans still have 2 legs, 2 arms & 2 faces. The battles will remain, only the players & sides they fight upon will change. A sad state of affairs, but it too is a martial arts tradition. I'm not saying I wish it to remain this way, only that I know it will never change.

~Just some thoughts
(from a mod thats been awake too long)
~BTL

[ursa major]

BTL ... which is not to say we should cease the efforts at growing together as a community that is affiliated by such strong bonds.

On the contrary, we must continue to capitalize on the ties that bind us as a community while consciously ignoring the petty differences that occasionally surface.

Hungfutkune,

Yes ! Emphatically ! Kung Fu is "a method to learn to defend yourself and help people better themselves as a person."

IMO this is the heart of what we are about, we help people to help themselves -- just as we were once helped. Is there a higher calling in life?

Yes! Kung Fu "is a big family"... with issues... "and it's disappointing when there is all this inner fighting especially within the same style!!"... couldn't agree with you more.

All I can say is each of us has a choice in how we respond to these issues. We can work towards positive change and when others choose to take the low road we can instead choose to take the high road.

Best regards,
UM.

[Hungfutkune]

Ursa Well Said!!!!! I couldn't have said it better!!

Just because there is in fighting we don't have to encourage it on forums such as this.

BTL - yes we all have 2 arms and 2 legs, but I would hope the majority of kung Fu practitioners do not have 2 FACES!

As martial artists we can learn from good sifus and bad sifus. I see a martial artist akin to a strainer. We need to fill our strainer and keep what works for us in, and strain the things that don't work out. (i hope that made sense)

We all have opinions, sometimes we disagree, but even with those that I disagree with I find it a learning experience. For some traditional is good and for others modern is good, but we have to stop our bickering and pointless finger pointing.

To go publicly and challenge someone to a "friendly" crossing of hands, I find an insult to all Martial Artists. Wouldn't it be better to invest that money to share idealogy, technique and history.

Yes in the past, there has been a lot of in fighting but maybe in the future there won't be.
IT ALL STARTS WITH US, ONLY WE CAN AFFECT THE FUTURE!!!

Again, I don't mean to offend anybody, but lets try and get along and better ourselves in our knowledge of other lineages and styles!!

OK enough said, ((GROUP HUG))!!

[brothernumber9]

what some would find as an insult to martial arts others would find an honor. That someone would care so much about you to want to test their mettle against yours.
Competition breeds progress even often when the immediate result seems tragic or denegrated.

I'm sure alot of us wonder if the things we learned as fighting skills, at least superficially are valid in our hands. There's only one real way to know. Otherwise we are left asking ourselves the proverbial "what if?". Challenges can be friendly, a chance to test and learn, albeit in a very dangerous and volatile manner that can and have turned belligerent.

Ego is such a strange bed fellow. For those that can balance it properly and never or hardly perceive themselves ever better than anyone else, then, you are rare breed, however most of us fall into other crowds, particularly those that see or hear someone and think "I am better than" or "I am more skilled than" or "I can beat" that person. And feel a desire to want to prove it, if to no one else, then to themselves.

In a utopia it is so wrong, perhaps in this world is deemed more wrong than not, but it often feels so right.

[shirkers1]

I think it was said best many years ago....

There comes a time when we need a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all

We can't go on pretending day by day
That someone, somehow will soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth - you know love is all we need

( CHORUS )
We are the world, we are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

Well, send'em you your heart
So they know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us
By turning stone to bread
And so we all must lend a helping hand

( REPEAT CHORUS )

When you're down and out
There seems no hope at all
But if you just believe
There's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, let's realize
That one change can only come
When we stand together as one

That's right people..... we are the world.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok that's it. I can't take the "touchy feely we're all brothers peace to the world kung fu is about being a good person and not harming life love one another" pacifist talk anymore.

Fighters fight. Period. That's what they do and for the most part they enjoy doing it. As long as they stick to fighting each other and not picking on the weak and helpless it's all good.

Bullies boost their ego by fighting inferior opponents. Real fighters test their skills against equal or better opponents.

In the past top fighters sought out other top fighters so they can test their skills, not to destroy them. Professional fighters look to go against the toughest they can because anything less is not a challenge.

If you train to fight you should be ready and willing to fight. Especially if you have a lot to say about the skills of others.

[mantis108]

Good call! Very well put, Hua Lin Laoshi.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[loki]

Hua Lin Laoshi,

Well said, so then people should stop advertising what they're going to do and just do it already. Too much talk and nothing is happenning. It's getting boring.

[MantisifuFW]

List Members,

Mantis Boxing has a long history of fighting and it's greatest fighters are celebrated and their matches remembered.

For Wong Long, it was losing his fight with Han Tong that made him go back and in reconsidering his method he created Tanglangquan in the first place.

In Taiji Meihua Tanglang, it was Li Danbai and Jang Hualong, engaged in pitched battle that resulted in a friendship that shaped Taiji Meihua Tanglang forever.

For Yang Weixin, it was a fight that saw him kill two Meihua Tanglang practitioners and sent him on a journey that caused him to spread Tanglang from Shanghai to Qingdao.

For Luo Guangyu it was a series of battles from competition to challenges both from within his school and without that established and propagated Tanglang to the world.

For my teacher, it was numerous challenges practitioners of many different arts as he established Tanglangquan in the West at a time when Gongfu was thought to be a kind of Chinese food.

For me, it was a martial journey that demanded that I fight many different types of opponents in exploring my art. Both winning and losing taught me a great deal.

As I started my school it was the challenges from local karate and kickboxing schools who had the impression that Gongfu was "soft" and "weak". We disabused them of that notion in short order, beating their champions and sending them packing.

Today, we have established ourselves and have an honorable relationship with several traditional karate and some kickboxing schools. We practice our arts in competition with each other to better ourselves and we are all better for the experience. But this place of mutual respect could not have been established without our demonstrating our ability.

When I was in California, I was priveledged to have the opportunity to talk to several masters at one of Sifu Kenneth Edwards' tournaments. There Jiang Hao Quan, legendary fighter from the mainland, and I had a talk. I asked him, in the company of the other senior masters there what a school should strive to be. For those who don't know, when Mohammed Ali as a boxing champion went around the world to meet the greatest fighters in each country, China offered Master Jiang.

Anyway, I asked and Master Jiang answered. He said, "Your school should be know as a fighting school first and formost". The other masters there agreed.

Challenges are a part of our history and culture. People are free to accept or reject as they feel fit. But it is, without question, woven into the fabric of Tanglangquan.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[loki]

mantisifuFW, Those are my sentiments exactly. Like my Sifu says sometimes, "you want to attain inner peace, do Yoga, you want to stay fit , join a fitness club. You want artistic expression, take up ballet. Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost. Yes, you can get peace, fitness, art, etc. but those are secondary benefits.

The difference between the great examples you've presented and what's going on here is that then, people did not advertise what they were going to do via the internet. You want to test someone, go to the individual you're interested in testing yourself and get it done. If they refuse to your face that's the end of it. That still doesn't mean the challenger was better, only that the challenged did not care to be tested. I'm pretty sure LKY would never waste his time telling a student of his to go online and tell someone that he wanted a "friendly match", he would just get up and go do it himself in person.

I for one am not timid about saying that Kung Fu is for fighting. Yet I have seen on many occasions on this very forum members look down on other members for taking this view. You know, the "you learn to fight so you don't have to fight" people. I don't go around looking for fights but I train so that just in case I happen to get into one I am as ready as I can be.

[sayloc]

I agree Loki. Praying Mantis Kung Fu is for fighting. It does come with a lot of other benifits as well. I think that in this day and age that the mental/physical health benefits may be of more value to the modern practitionaer than the fighting. Only because most people do not find themselvs in the position to fight that often. I did find myself in that position a couple of weeks ago and all it took was one technique to convince my opponent that maybe he should calm down a little. So it does happen and it feels great to be able to handle the situation.

As for challenges, do it in private. Do it for yourself, no need impress other people. Whenyou are dead and gone no one will rember anyway. (Unless you are one of the great masters)

[yu shan]

I have been sitting back reading this with amazement! This Pel vs. Scolaro does not sound anything like my Shifu. Shifu Scolaro is the kind of man that will meet you privately with no fan fare. Knowing my Shifu, Scolaro needs no publicity about any altercation. I will be asking my Shifu about all this when I see him in September. I will post sometime after the 14th of Sept.

Sayloc

We have no need to impress, to be honest, we`d rather keep the s h i t to ourselves. But Master Shr is visiting and he is all about people learning Mantis Gongfu. If you miss out, your loss!

[sayloc]

yushan

I dont think you understood what I was saying. I think the CHALLENGE thing should be done in private. I am all for People like your master sharing information. I think that this master shr WILL be remembered long after he is gone. The guys arguing over the net may or may not. Only time will tell. It all depends on what they do and how they represent themselves in the next 40 years.

Not trying to offend but as far as wanting to keep the "stuff" to yourselves, isnt that part of what you complained about your last master? (just reviewing old threads) If only your master has the desire to train other people outside of your style then your style will never grow in the US. How will other people find out how good it is? And if you dont want to share the "stuff" it is in danger of becoming watered down like other systems discussed here.

I think the seminar would be a great opportunity for mantis to grow. I think any martial artist should take the oportunity to learn from this guy. The opportunity to train for the whole week end would be priceless. You could acctually get the theory behind it. That type of info is not possibloe in a one hour seminar at a tourny.

As for me I would love to to come. As I remember correclty the time had changed once. I did not want to take a chance on buying a ticket and have the time change again. The other problem is I was just in Tampa last week and cant afford the trip twice in one month. Just a poor kung fu teacher.

[Hungfutkune]

Is Kung Fu for fighting or is it for self defense??
I am definetely not one of those "Touchy Feely" martial artists that Hua Lin Laoshi mentions, but I do consider my self a martial artists that learns to fight so he doesn't have to fight - and I don't see anything wrong with that!
If we had more martial artist with that type of mentality I think we would have a more peaceful co-existence in the martial artist world.
What I do strongly believe is that Kung Fu students and sifus should not use their skills to issue challenges. These challenges are most always ego driven and there is no room for EGO in traditional Kung fu.

When I first learned Kung fu I was told by my sifu that first you learn Patience then Humility and then if your lucky you can learn some Kung Fu. Ok that might not be too realistic in a western and money driven world, but in the long run it develops stronger people and more respectful Martial Artists.

Another thing that I find quite odd, is that these challenges are being presented to sifus on behalf of other sifus through thier students. Shouldn't this be done between the challengers themselves and in private? It is my belief that these challenges should be done in private and this forum should be used to share knowledge and history between people with the same goals.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune

What I do strongly believe is that Kung Fu students and sifus should not use their skills to issue challenges. These challenges are most always ego driven and there is no room for EGO in traditional Kung fu.

When I first learned Kung fu I was told by my sifu that first you learn Patience then Humility and then if your lucky you can learn some Kung Fu. Ok that might not be too realistic in a western and money driven world, but in the long run it develops stronger people and more respectful Martial Artists.

Another thing that I find quite odd, is that these challenges are being presented to sifus on behalf of other sifus through thier students. Shouldn't this be done between the challengers themselves and in private? It is my belief that these challenges should be done in private and this forum should be used to share knowledge and history between people with the same goals.

HungFutKune: I absolutly agree!
Some bad example like you mentioned: Invitation to a challenge (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30627)

[loki]

Hello Yu Shan,

You touched on something there that I was wondering about myself. Does Sifu Scolaro even know that challenges are being made via the internet on his behalf ? Did he sanction this? I don't know much about the man but from what I gather he is a well respected Sifu in the CMAs community and doesn't come across as someone that would promote something like this.

Hungfutkune,

Well put :)