What happened to the other 5?

[SPJ]

It is said that there are 7 routines (Tou Lu) in Lao Jia Chen Tai Ji.

In the beginning of last century, there were only 2 left. Lao Jia Yi Lu and Er Lu.

The other 5 are more difficult to learn.

Where are the missing 5 now?




:confused:

[Brad]

I thought the old routines(at least a great part of them) were supposed to have been condensed into what is now taught as the two Lao Jia forms.

[mickey]

Greetings,

You owe it to yourselves to check around.

The "current 2" forms is nothing more than commercial packaging and propaganda that seems targeted in protecting inner traditions. I had the unique opportunity to see 5 forms from the Chen style demonstrated by a master whose name I do not remember; I only remember that it was fantastic! There was a memorial article written in Tai Chi magazine on the late Zhang Li Peng that referenced an occasion when he performed a third set of Chen style and seemed to sugggest that he knew more than that.


Keep asking and looking. When you ask, do it with the authority that you know about their existence.

mickey

[Mo Ling]

"The "current 2" forms is nothing more than commercial packaging and propaganda that seems targeted in protecting inner traditions"

wow... silly me.
I am left wondering if the writer has ever trained anything substantial of these two commerical packaging forms. Seeing as mickey does not even remember this guys name, are you serious?

man... anyway yes the apparent 7 sets were condensed. if one wants to go back in time perhaps they can find the 7 sets or some of them, but those who condensed them had their good reasons. There is more than enough gongfu that comes directly out of training those two sets. The issue is not really what set one trains, but how good is the teacher one learns from. One set is already more than enough.

anyway, I respect the research for historical interest, but when you do find out the name of this guy, be sure to let us know. Until then we will have to settle for the Chen style commerical packaging form.


M

www.taijigongfu.com

[Brad]

The "current 2" forms is nothing more than commercial packaging and propaganda that seems targeted in protecting inner traditions. I had the unique opportunity to see 5 forms from the Chen style demonstrated by a master whose name I do not remember; I only remember that it was fantastic! There was a memorial article written in Tai Chi magazine on the late Zhang Li Peng that referenced an occasion when he performed a third set of Chen style and seemed to sugggest that he knew more than that.
I seem to remember a few people advertising what's supposedly the "lost" Chen style routines(Thunder style I think). Adam Hsu, and I think another name I can't remember had talked some about it...

[mickey]

Greetings again.

Mo Ling, your response is typical.

If SPR and Brad want to broaden their horizons and deepen their understanding, power to them. I wish them success. I wish I did remember the name of that master; instead of responding as preciously, I would have sent these two a private email to simply avoid responses such as yours. Though Chen Tai chi is not my thing, I do agree with you that quantity is not necessarily better that quality. But this has nothing to do with SPJ's inquiry.

For you to say that two is "enough" suggests that you may have seen the others as well. :)

I won't be coming back to participate this thread, so I wish you all well.

mickey

[mickey]

Mo ling,

After reading your thread a few times I realize I have to make a clarification. When I referred to the "current two" and used the terms packaged and commercialization, it was not to say that these two forms were bogus; only that it is made to appear that that is all there is. Nothing more. I WOULD NOT SUGGEST THAT WHAT CHEN STYLE PRACTITIONERS ARE CURRENTLY PRACTICING IS BOGUS, NOT EVEN FOR A MINUTE!! Though I do not study the Chen style, I do respect it.

There are times when the written word can be interpreted in other ways than it was originally intended. It was not my intention to kick sand in the face of any Chen style practitioner.

If that was the read that you got from my initial post, that was not where I was going.

Peace,

mickey

[Brad]

After reading your thread a few times I realize I have to make a clarification. When I referred to the "current two" and used the terms packaged and commercialization, it was not to say that these two forms were bogus; only that it is made to appear that that is all there is. Nothing more. I WOULD NOT SUGGEST THAT WHAT CHEN STYLE PRACTITIONERS ARE CURRENTLY PRACTICING IS BOGUS, NOT EVEN FOR A MINUTE!! Though I do not study the Chen style, I do respect it.
Thanks for the clarification, 'cause that is kind of what I thought you were saying :D It makes more sense now... I allways try to keep my eye out for new interesting things. I think there's enough Chen style variations showing up on video & vcd to know that standard Chen familly Yi Lu and Er Lu aren't the only things out there :) RAF found a clip of an interesting older Chen style varient(supposedly one of the old forms), I don't know where it is now though. I think I've got it saved on my hard though. I think the thing is though that even if it might be likely that someone out there has some of the "lost forms", it would be rather hard to prove(unless maybe you're directly related to the Chen familly) and end up with a situation like anyone claiming to know Old Yang style from Yang Lu Chan :p

[Brad]

On a related note, has anyone seen the Chen 108 longfist form? Is it actually Taiji Quan or more like Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Hong Quan and other longfist styles?

[Brad]

Here's a link to what I'm talking about: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_TCchen108.htm

Plumpub sells some other Chen style variations too: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd-title.htm

[Mo Ling]

Mickey, yeah I read it that way also...
it did seem like you were saying the popular two current sets were nothing more than commerical packaging and propaganda...anyway, since clarified.

[RAF]

Brad:

The frame you speak of Brad is based upon what Du Yu Zhi ws taught by Chen Fake's father, Chen Yan Xi. It has been referred to as Da Jia, large frame, and is very, very close to what Chen Qing Zhou practices and teaches (personal visit and peformance in Xulu Village) and Chen Quan Zhong of Xian. It does not represent a significant variation, at least in terms of posture (personal execution is another issue) than what is found elsewhere.

I have no personal experience of Hu Lei Jia or Zhao Bao but the frame I learned was referred to as xiao jia by a teacher in Taiwan called Wang Meng Bi. He learned it from Chen Fake in the 1930s and also makes no great departure from what is normally found other than some different personal posture executions. Quite frankly I don't understand the flavor and execution of hu lei jia as practiced in Wanggedun (not their fault but simply my shortcoming) nor do I find any great shakes in the Zhao Bao style. The xiao jia I have also seen doesn't strike me as being radically different either.

Mo Ling and I have discussed this previously and I respect his position or take on what he sees. I have nothing to argue about over someone's personalization and Mo Ling has a very sharp eye for the techncial skills in Chen's taijiquan. I am less interested in frames and their personalization and more interested in how basic training is carried out.

I have watched Mo Ling's vcds of Chen Yu and concluded that indeed Chen Yu is one of the most skilled Chen practitioners I have ever observed. His ability to move flowingly from qinna lock to strike and/or throw (all in one application from a given set of postures from the form) is indeed amazing and I believe he represents a benchmark of high level Chen power and skill. In the hands of many of the Chen players I have seen doing what is referred to as "xin jia", their movements are too flowery and in my opinion, lack a strong leg/kua power/structure foundation. The same applications in Chen Yu executions make sense and are not punctuated. Its obvious, judging by the connection of the lower and upper body, Chen Yu has it--what is normally seen as "flowery" dissolves in his approach. You can see how far off the mark some parctitiners are. In my estimateion, it simply means that there are a lot of low level practitioners out in the public that really should be training rather than teaching. we find this in almost every style of system.

I hope none of this is interpreted as a slam on other practitioners such as Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Qing Zhou, Chen Quan Zhong and others. In my eyes they all have attained a signficant level of mastery and my take on Chen Yu does not diminsh them in any sesne of the word. In fact, you might want to check out the woman doing a private demonstration of xiao jia, early 1990s, on the tape offered by Plum Publications:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi/vd-plumtourney.htm

In September of 1993 Plum Publications traveled to the Second International Chen Tai Chi championships and produced an exclusive film of the competitions. The film includes such rare appearances by masters such as...


Wang Xi-An,
Chen Qing-Zhou, master of traditional Zun Gu Chen style
Chen LiQing, rescuer of the 108 Short Lao Jia form
Chen Hsiao Wang's son,
One of the first public, government apporved demonstrations with Thunder stylists from Wang Ge Dang village, including Chen QingLei, showing the unusual jing-issuing style
Wu Style demonstrated by Qiao SongMao.

AND a a special performance by a talented young woman, directly of the Chen family, - privately filmed after the performance - demonstrating one of the most powerful versions of Chen you will ever see.

A must for both Student & Admirer, this film includes:

Welcoming ceremony: 200 T'ai Ch'i players, swords, hands and whips
Competitions: T'ai Ch'i sword, women's division and foreign visitors. Many of these forms are complete with talented performers.
Rare T'ai Ch'i weapons such as Kwan Do and double sabers
NOTE: This was one of Plum's first features and there is a limited number of these videos
_________________________________________

She is a real pleasure to watch!

Also, you might want to check out Chen Zhonghua--I think he is also very powerful in his executions---I've only seen a bit but I would rank him up there very high irrespective of what his frame is labeled.

Anyway, I think there is nothing magical about frames regardless of how old they are---its what goes into the frame that counts.

I personally find Du Yu Zhi's frame as a possible peek into the frame of what the orginal Yang frame looked like, pre-Yang Cheng Fu. But again, older doesn't necessarily imply better and its what goes into the frame that counts. I also am not here to market any particular Chen or Yang system and I don't have any secret Wudang forms or transmissions.

Take care and I hope you can make it to the tournament this fall.

Later