Wing Chun compulsory Form

[whippinghand]

Has anyone seen or heard about the new Wing Chun Compulsory Form?

[mikey]

could you please elaborate?
where did you hear of such a thing?

[wingchun.com]

Sounds like Sunny Tang's form which is being pushed as an Olympic like form for that level of competition.

The performance of the Wing Chun training forms is BAD enough already without a new form. That is to say looking at video of many of the current "masters" you see very little ground path connection, no whole body connection and lots of use of upper body strength. On those without the upper body development you just see sloppy movement.

This is one more step down the path of Wing Chun losing its edge. Leave the competition forms for wushu. If you want to do forms, just do THE FORMS, but do them like your life depended on them.

[whippinghand]

I've seen it here in Toronto. It's an amalgamation of all the Wing Chun Forms.

[MasterPhil]

I heard about it, then I saw it performed... As you said: "It's an amalgamation of all the Wing Chun Forms."

I simply wonder about the purpose and motivations behind this new development in wc history...

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[whippinghand]

Silent Thunder,
Where did you see it performed, and by whom?

[MasterPhil]

Why the question? Show me yours and I'll show you mine :)

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[whippinghand]

What exactly are you asking me?

[MasterPhil]

I was just taken by surprise by the directness of your question and its purpose. But coming from a wc guy, I should have know better :)
To indulge your query, i saw it done here in ottawa by a sunnytang student.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[benny]

ive heard of Compulsory forms they are siu lim tao,chum kiu, biu jee,dummy,knives and pole and i thought we already had it :D

[MasterPhil]

Benny, those are the ONLY forms in wc. The compulsory form WH is referring to is a "made-up" form composed of movements found in all the forms you mentioned.

Whipping Hand, since you started this thread, maybe you can explain to everybody here who created this "compulsory form" and why.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Vankuen]

Keep in mind that the Sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee, Muk yang jong, Baat cham do, and the Long pole forms are the only forms in YIP MAN'S lineage of wing chun. There are other lineages of wing chun that contain other forms, and even different methods to some of the forms that share the same name. Just thought I would point that out being that there are beginners here too.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[dre_doggX]

Can any one tell me how do I rate a Topic/

Andre Lashley

[MasterPhil]

Good point Vankuen. The YM lineage is so dominant (ie spread) in north america, we sometimes forget there are other lineages just as valid.

Maybe WhippingHand could answer this: Is this new "compulsory form" supposed to include or represent ALL wc lineages?

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[old jong]

I have known two sifu(Yip Man lineage) who had created a "modified" form! It seems it is a rather common practice when they want to leave their trace or signature in the system. We could question their motives for creating a form when it is not needed in the first place.I guess human nature is like that! :rolleyes:

[whippinghand]

To answer Silent Thunder's questions...

I don't quite know for sure, I can only speculate. Sunny Tang created it. Why? That's a question I've been asking myself. But it has something to do with being able to compete with it. So that, when competing, there's no bias between the different lineages. In other words, a competitor can't be docked marks because he does movements differently. The form is the form, just like in wushu, the movements are done the same by everyone, the sequence is the same too. Does it include all WC lineages? Just from seeing it, no. It looks very "Sunny Tangish".

[Chum Kil]

A little off topic. Somewhere I read that Wing Chun only had 1 Empty Hand Form. Which consisted of Shil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, and Bil Jee combined. They were all done as we do them today, but without stopping between each one. Has anyone else heard something about this? Does this sound feasible?

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[MasterPhil]

Thank you WH.

I was excited when I first heard about it simply for the fact that it was a new development in wc. But, as I reflected more on this, I am not sure anymore it is such a positive change. If the goal is to standardize the forms to have international competions or even make it an olympic discipline, then the martial art becomes a sport. Just like what happened for judo and tkd. Even if only for the sake of international, inter-lineages forms competitions. Who will be at an advantage? Surely the ones who studied under the guy who created the new form. They are the ones who have to adapt the least.

I speak out of ignorance as I do not know SunnyTang's motives. But they seem to be more linked to promoting his own competition (the bigger the competition, the bigger the profits!) than to preserve the quality of his art intact for the next generations. But then again, what do I know?

Competitions can be fun. Especially if you are young and win the big trophies like I used to. But I wouldn't change a thing to my forms or fighting style to adapt for competition. That is the first mistake a martial artist will make. Concentrate on your traditional training. Knowledgeable judges will see the difference and appreciate the quality of a traditional form. But the quality of many "qualified" judges at most competitions is a whole other debate, lol. I am getting ****her and ****her from the subject here...

ChumKil: It's just a semantic misunderstanding. There are 3 distinct empty hand form in wc (YM lineage). Though they are 3 distinct forms, I always do them one after the other without interruption so, to the neophyte's eyes, it looks like only 1 form.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Highlander]

Chum Kil ...... I was taught that originally there was only one form as you described. We learn them as three forms, but after we have learned them we do them as one continuous form.

[Chum Kil]

Highlander

If you don't mind me asking, which lineage do you practice? What I read was when Wing Chun was first being taught there was only 1 Empty Hand Form. I guess as time went by people broke it down into 3. How was it explained to you? Please share some enlightenment. I'm always intrigued by other's stories of Wing Chun. Instead of my lineage is better than yours, mine is the true lineage and all that crap.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Highlander]

I am of the Augustine Fong lineage and I really don't have that much explaination about the forms. What my Sifu has said is that SLT builds energy and he wants us to then take that energy and explode with it into Chum Kui. Another explaination has to do with ranges. SLT is for the furthest range when the strikes come in. The next closest is Chum Kui or bridged range, and the closest is Bui Gee. Learning these separate makes sence sinse they are specific and different, but practicing them together also makes sense since in application you would not stay in one range, but flow in and out.

What have you been told and what are your thoughts

[whippinghand]

I have heard the same, that it was one form. Some lineages still practice it as such, but I'm not talking about continuing 1 into another, I mean 1 form that includes all the elements of the 3, but not necessarily all the moves.

[Chum Kil]

I wish I could find that website again, it was over 2 years ago when I read this. Basically we do it the same, Shil Lim Tao for energy, Advanced Shil Lim Tao as an intermediate form with movement before you go into Chum Kil (not really sure about this), Chum Kil for bridging the attack with side stepping and forward movement, Bil Jee for evasive tactics (do not know this form yet). Like I said before they were doing one form (like Tai Chi Long Form). I guess it took a while till they actually learned the whole form. When I usually do the forms, I do them separetly. Since the opening movements in our lineage are the same, I guess I could just take them out and continue from that point on without stopping between forms. I might just try this oneday and see how it feels. I've also heard that the Wooden Dummy Movements are practiced as one long form. We learn it in sections, maybe when you learn all the sections then you can go thru the whole thing without stopping. I only know the first section, was starting the second when I moved here. How do you guys practice the Wooden Dummy? Highlander I've been to Sifu Fong's website and I'm very impressed with his way of teaching, good to see you have a excellent Sifu.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Highlander]

Chum Kil ....... We do the Wooden Man form as one form, but we also learn it in sections. As it was told to me, the first section relates to Sil Lum Tao, the second to Chum Kui, and the third to Bil Gee. So we learn a section with each level.

As far as the third form being evasive tactic, I guess that is one way of describing it. I have always heard it was emergency tactics and like yourself, I am not there yet. Also, we are talking very generally here. So, when I say the second form teaches very bridged or trapping range, that is just one of the many things it teach.

Let me give you an example of how the three forms might work together in application:

1) your opponent throws a right punch to your head
2) you block it with your right forearm using a Biu Sao motion (Sil Lum Tao)
3) at this point you have established a bridge
4) lop with the right hand torking your body to pull your opponent (Chum Kui - this is from the first section where you tork from a bong sao to a lon sao)
5a) If this has just unbalanced your opponent you can tork back to the bong sao only close the hand into a fist so that the bong sao motion becomes a strike (we are taught that all WC motions can be either a strike or a block).
5b) If the lop actually pulled your opponent closer towards you, you will need a more circular strike. I am told that these are found in the third form.

Anyway, for what it's worth, that is my understanding of how the system fits together and how the forms work together. I'm sure it will change somewhat as my knowledge increases. What is your understanding?

Whipping Hand ....... That sounds very interesting that it was one form, but a different form. Do you have any more information on that. It would be interesting if the elements of the current three forms were mixed together through out the form as opposed to begin grouped together. Do you recall which lineage teaches it that way

[Chum Kil]

We do application drills from the forms plus other self defense drills.

For example an intermediate self defense drill:

1) your opponent throws a right punch to your face
2) you lop sau with your right wu sau as your left man sau positions under his elbow (arm break), trap with left step-in chain punch or you just punch with the left, then follow up with chain punch, when we lop sau we shift into (in this case a T-Stance), I believe most of the time a lop sau is done in a side neutral stance. We like to use the blind side alot. The Pak Sau/Tchun Sau/Lop Sau/Punch/Trap/Follow-up chain punches/Side neutral stance combo is a very good way to get to the outside of your opponent. The tork you use from the Chum Kil form is used here (Lop Sau/Side Neutral Stance). I guess if you wanted, you could just control your opponent and throw him, no need for a punch. I like the Lop Sau/Punch/Side Neutral Stance because you can generate alot more power into the punch. I believe my Sifu developed some of the Self Defense Drills we use. Sifu Cheung has developed alot also. Sifu Cheung in general does not teach the same way now as he did in the early 80's. I believe his earlier Wing Chun was more devastating than it is now from what I heard/read from his earlier Sifu's. This is just my learning of the Wing Chun Art.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Shadowboxer]

Hey,

Does anybody practice another form called Sao Bo? I've only learned the first one. They are beginning to teach me another form that is not Chum Kiu but Sao Bo. Just curious as to how many others out there have heard of this or know it/practice it.

[Jaeson]

The forms are taught as one.
We teach them separate at first,but the system is taught as a whole.
It is clear from the forms, that they are designed to be as one.
Just look at the Chum kiu form.
Why does it end with the left leg kicking.A lot of Sifu's added the right leg wondering why it was'nt there.
Some Sifu's didnt realize that the right kick is performed in the Bat jam Do form.
That proves the system is taught as a whole.

[whippinghand]

Apparently, it has not been accepted by non-Ip Man lineages. I believe, if Wing Chun compulsory forms are to be accepted, there will have to be a few of them, to represent the different lineages, which defeats the purpose of having one in the first place.