Question for Mixed Martial Art People

[WinterPalm]

What are the general thoughts in MMA training as regards to Kung Fu methods of iron fist,palm,forearm, shin,body,etc?
I'm just curious because I know a fellow, who recently lost a fight in a severe manner, and he states that forearm conditioning is not a good training method and more something to do for fun. He is not trained in any martial art but watches a lot of UFC and prescribes to that meathead group of MMA people that hate TMA. I only want to hear what actual open minded MMA people have to say on this subject.
:)

[Water Dragon]

Well, today in class, we did 50 situps. Between each sit up, our partner slammed us in the belly with a Thai pad. We do that to take shots to the belly.

We also condition our shins because that is how we block kicks.

If you have a use for forearm conditioning, I say yes, it;s a valid training method. But what exactly are you going to use it for, and does the benefit you're going to get justify the time you put into that training?

Sorry it's not a direct answer, but that's how I would look at it.

[WinterPalm]

I would say the use would be for striking with the forearm, blocking, I've thrown some hard punches at my Sifu and his arm feels like iron. It hurts so much that in a fight it would cause severe pain and could deter further aggression.

[David Jamieson]

iron anything training is useful.

it takes a long time to develop.

say 1,000 repititions of your hak fu gung lik kuen set, + the chi kung + sam sing + iron palm training and weapons (wrists) training and you will develop the strong bridge (kiu sao).

some people have strong bridges (forearms) from different exercises than those. I have trained with a few guys in the last 3 years that have wicked bridges.

They got em from just continuous working out in martial arts.

I've also trained with guys who's bridges aren't quite as strong and have also been traing martial arts for a while.

I have also trained with mma guys who have em.

what are they useful for? destructions, covers, smashing through, all kinds of stuff.

There are a lot of so called mma-ers who actually are "not". lol they just go to an mma club and do their workout there, but like kungfu, there are many who are not commited enough to actually train hard and train diligently.

lots of em, but those who do want to be strong and to have powerful bridges will eventually get em.

Your sifu didn't get em overnight and certainly not by magic winterpalm. he worked at it for a long long time. Like anything else that's worth having, that's usually what it takes.

cheers

[WinterPalm]

I understand the uses for the conditioning, but I've heard people state that conditioning the forearm is useless and that bridge training exercises are useless. The reason I ask is because most of the MMA are Muai Thai, Boxing, JJJ, BJJ, and Judo, which, to my knowledge anyway, have no training for the bridge. So I wonder why not? If they are training MMA, why not work on defense techniques and not just the offensive, unless I'm missing something here.
I am aware that kung fu takes time, that is why I am in no rush to learn everything, to beat everyone, and to be the best, I am just a student and am very fortunate for everything I am learning.

[yenhoi]

There are other training methods that are just more valuable for ring fighting then iron-anything training. Even someone who spent to much time making his shins tuff will get a talking to by the coach or what not for wasting time. There is only so much time between now, and the MMA fighters next match.

Probably by the time any one has finished iron bridge training, and now has forearms that can cut will have grown out of the idea that he wants to be a ring fighter. For various reasons.

Also I would bet that the average ring fighter, regardless of what kind of ring or style or training methods, has harder forearms, shins, and probably just about everything else then most others who dont compete.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

It's not that iron training is useless. It's all about efficiency. My conditioning is a byproduct of my training - I strike a bag and thai pads for several rounds, several days a week. my limbs are getting conditioned by the bag and pads at the same time that I am working power, techniuqe, etc. It's a waste of time for me to spend x number of minutes solely on the iron palm bag when I can do all of the above mentioned things simultaneously.


If they are training MMA, why not work on defense techniques and not just the offensive, unless I'm missing something here.

you're missing something. It's the same thing with defense - When I am sparring, I am taking strikes to my body and limbs. defending those strikes IS conditioning. Also, in case you were referring to actual technique training, MMA do plenty of defense work.


I am aware that kung fu takes time, that is why I am in no rush to learn everything, to beat everyone, and to be the best, I am just a student and am very fortunate for everything I am learning.

this is the key to your question - as you said, you are in no hurry... you train for a possibility - we train for an inevitability. you MIGHT have to use your skills one day. Consequently, you're not in a rush to hone them. an mma WILL use his in the ring, against someone as skilled, if not moreso than himself, so he wants to improve his skills as best he can in the most efficient manner.

[David Jamieson]

I've heard people state that conditioning the forearm is useless and that bridge training exercises are useless.

Well, i train with all sorts of kungfu, mma, karate, etc people and none of them have ever said anything like this. I think that someone who says this probably hasn't done any training in this area and wouldn't know whethere it had use or not. So, they're offering is moot.



The reason I ask is because most of the MMA are Muai Thai, Boxing, JJJ, BJJ, and Judo, which, to my knowledge anyway, have no training for the bridge.

Because something does not have repititious striking of the self in an attempt to toughen skin muscle and bone in a method you have come to know as "iron" this or that does not mean that toughness of the skin muscle and bone isn't built in other ways.

They way you do it now is statically, with the exception of sam sing which is semi live.

Continuous fighting will toughen you up as well and without the static training.

Muay Thai guys that do for real muay thai have conditioning drills for toughening the arms and legs that your average kungfu kid in your avereage kungfu school would not be able to handle on a regular basis that the thai fighters do.

Heavy bag work compresses tissue in the arms and hardens them as do particular types of weight lifting sequences and hard sparring, so boxing incorporates a type of the training as well. YOu certainly can't be weak armed and a good boxer.

bjj and judo guys don't do a lot a lot of striking and in fact iron skills aren't very useful against someone who envelopes you and chokes you or throws you. So in the grappling and throwing arts, I would agree that iron anything isn't a whole lot of use.

Be careful not to fall into the mindtrap that what you are doing is superior to anything else out there. It is not and if you need to prove it to yourself, enter a tournament and see what other people are doing.

and spar with people who diligently train in other arts. THat'll snap you into reality pretty quickly winterpalm.

cheers

[ShaolinTiger00]

What are the general thoughts in MMA training as regards to Kung Fu methods of iron fist,palm,forearm, shin,body,etc

Hi, WP.

I think that many people do not regard Iron Palm (and related) extreme conditioning so highly is based upon 2 aspects.

1. You shouldn't be hitting hard targets with your hands.

2. Time/effect ratio. That kind of conditoning takes a huge amount of time and I'm not an 8 yr old thai boy who trains 8 hrs a day for a lifetime. Not only do I have less time, but I'm also learning a much larger syllabus of techniques than the average single- art. I'm splitting my time into 3 major groups. (free standing, clinch & ground)

[SifuAbel]

Iron palm isn't a technique , its a conditioning. You don't have to be that young or train that long. The session is about 45 minutes a day and you'll see a noted result in a couple of weeks. You have to start keeping it light with people in a couple of months because your punch gets unfair. It takes a year to get to the red construction brick breaking stage. By then your strike has been devastating for quite some time. People aren't bricks.

Iron palm has stopping power.

[Meat Shake]

I train iron palm, and I have seen a lot of good results from it. I condition my shin as well.
"its wasted training time"
If you guys see like this, then by the time you are done working out, you shouldnt be able to do much besides chi gung or iron palm. When I do my IP sets, is at the very end of my workout, when Im too tired to do anything else. My shins are hard like hell from it. (Shin conditioning = tons of thai kicks on the heavy bag with my shins, 60 lb steel bar rolled down them 100 times each leg, front and instep of shins, and a lot of smashing my shins on other peoples shins)
:)
As a singular training method I dont see it as very effective, but in conjunction with a good training regimen and plenty of fighting, it can be very helpful.

[WinterPalm]

I agree with Sevenstar that I am training for a possibility and not an inevitability, I have no desire to actually fight people, just spar and learn, fighting is not fun as violence is something I am principally against. But I guess my misunderstanding was that it seems in boxing, which I briefly trained in, seems to have very little in the form of actual blocking, deflecting, it seems to be either absorb, or avoid, obviously kung fu has these aspects but ducking means taking the eyes of the opponent, I suppose boxing is also not thinking that the opponent is going to knee them and so this isn't a concern.
As for the bridge, I think that someone still has to cross it to choke you, to throw you, or for any grappling techniques, in fact it would seem that crossing the bridge is more useful in a grappling attack than in just a punch or kick, they have to get right inside your defence, whereas punching and kicking can stay outside a certain range while destroying the bridge.

I don't understand SHaolinTiger, why shouldn't people be hitting hard targets with their hands. It is possible that you may have to hit someone in the head, and that is a hard target? Shouldn't one be prepared for that? I don't think punching a steel wall or brick wall has many health benefits, but my Sifu trains on a steel shot iron palm bag and has done so for a number of years and is perfectly healthy.

I've been told that iron palm shouldn't be trained at the end of a workout because it requires a great amount of energy, especially when you get up in the higher repetitions and you are standing in a stance for forty-five minutes or an hour.

[FatherDog]

Kung Lek has laid a surprising amount of correct on this thread.

[David Jamieson]

the general rule in chinese martial arts is:

"Hard hits soft and soft hits hard"

I don't think I should have to explain this one, but by all means, fire away if you don't get this.

boxing has plenty of blocking, like "cutting or chopping"

wherein you chop the incoming shot

you also slice the incoming and you "push up" the incoming.

on top of that there is destructions which dissapate incoming force from a cross or a hook or a roundhouse. anyway, it is there in the boxing skills.

To obtain the iron hand or iron palm can be done in a few ways and in fact is done in a few ways across a few different traditions.

Abel is correct it is not a technique. it is a conditioning method that will make striking easier for the one who carries out the exercises and routines.

Karate has it's way, Kungfu has it's way (generally, all kungfu styles prescribe to the same method of hitting a mung bean bag with a falling hand using all sides of the hands while teh bag sits on a pillar. insert harder material over time to increase the hardness of the surface you are striking. The other way is thrusting hands to achieve similar results)

heavy bag work will also make your hands tougher and your arms harder. it is the same principle after all.

contact fighting on a regular basis will also do same, but bear in mind, you are doing "live" conditioning and not static or "dead" drills that comprise a lot of conditining training.

in the end, you will hit harder and your hands will be slightly desensitized to the force feedback of striking something.

now, golden bell cover is of much more value to a fighter in my opinion, because if you train to fight, then your hands are gonna get hard anyway after time.

anyway...

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
it seems in boxing, which I briefly trained in, seems to have very little in the form of actual blocking, deflecting, it seems to be either absorb, or avoid, obviously kung fu has these aspects but ducking means taking the eyes of the opponent, I suppose boxing is also not thinking that the opponent is going to knee them and so this isn't a concern.

If you were taking your eyes off of your opponent while you were ducking, you were doing it wrong.

If you were ducking so low that a knee was readily available to hit you, you were doing it wrong.

you're right about the evading and absorbing, however there is also parryng. Wouldn't you consider the absorption as conditioning?


As for the bridge, I think that someone still has to cross it to choke you, to throw you, or for any grappling techniques, in fact it would seem that crossing the bridge is more useful in a grappling attack than in just a punch or kick, they have to get right inside your defence, whereas punching and kicking can stay outside a certain range while destroying the bridge.

the concept of a bridge is somewhat nonexisant...boxers don't trap, and thusly, there is never really any sustainable arm contact.

I don't understand SHaolinTiger, why shouldn't people be hitting hard targets with their hands. It is possible that you may have to hit someone in the head, and that is a hard target? Shouldn't one be prepared for that? I don't think punching a steel wall or brick wall has many health benefits, but my Sifu trains on a steel shot iron palm bag and has done so for a number of years and is perfectly healthy.

KL touched on this.

[yenhoi]

Oh come now. Cubans and Filipino boxers do all sorts of trapping.

;)

[phantom]

I don't mean to offend you mmaers, for I really like mma myself. However, I think some of the conditioning methods advocated by martial sports will do you more harm than good in the long run. I tend to think that having somebody drop a medicine ball on your stomach is not good for you. Look at the average life span of professional boxers and it just has to make you wonder if that kind of training takes years off of your life. I am not sure if having somebody whack you with a thai pad into your stomach is a good idea, either. The chinese martial arts do a better job of taking into consideration the possible ill effects of conditioning and they protect the practitioner's health from them, imho. I welcome any constructive criticism about this. Peace.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by phantom
I don't mean to offend you mmaers, for I really like mma myself. However, I think some of the conditioning methods advocated by martial sports will do you more harm than good in the long run. I tend to think that having somebody drop a medicine ball on your stomach is not good for you. Look at the average life span of professional boxers and it just has to make you wonder if that kind of training takes years off of your life. I am not sure if having somebody whack you with a thai pad into your stomach is a good idea, either. The chinese martial arts do a better job of taking into consideration the possible ill effects of conditioning and they protect the practitioner's health from them, imho. I welcome any constructive criticism about this. Peace.

Is there any physiological reason for your belief that training to absorb shock with your musculature will lead to harm in the long run? I've done some intense muscle training in the past for strength, stamina/endurance and for shock/blow absorption and don't see how proper training can really harm me until I get to the point where my body has just aged so much that I'd just have to lay off of the high impact training.

Let's go with the dropping of the medicine ball on the stomach. First off, before impact training the abdomen/core, a good amount of training of the connective tissue surrounding the internal organs of the area. This would mean a good amount of stretching, isometrics, dynamic tension, muscular weight training with complex movements, etc. The idea is to get to the point where the muscles surrounding the internal organs are strong enough to minimize the resulting shock to the organs, and the strenthening of the connective tissue surrounding the organs,etc absorb the rest.

Now, of course, this has been my experience in the past and I'm still fairly young, so I'm not sure what long term effects there would be, however, in being sensitive to my body, in particular the sensations from blow absorption training, it seems fairly reasonable that there's no real harm here.

I would be very interested to read the reasons behind an opposing view.

[LeeCasebolt]

Look at the average life span of professional boxers and it just has to make you wonder if that kind of training takes years off of your life.

I'm inclined to believe that has more to do with the ridiculous amounts of abuse sustained fighting in the ring than it does with the training methods.

[David Jamieson]

You cannot condition your brain to not hit your cranium when it gets hit. That is a truism. :p

I don't think gradual conditioning will have an adverse affect on you into old age unless you are doing it wrong, not gradually or without preventitive medicine.

People who have mastered Iron palm for instance have relatively smooth hands when they do it the gradual way.

physical stress is what conditions and strengthens us. Without that physical stress there is little in the way of bone or muscle growth or density within each.

train safe, train right, and all is well. But if yer steppin in and taking head shots, you are going to sustain damage after a lot of cards, or even just one depending on the delicacy of your noodle and the hardness of the shot it took.

core skills and body conditioning to absorb or dissolve shock will reduce recovery times, toughen the body and bone.

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phantom
I don't mean to offend you mmaers, for I really like mma myself. However, I think some of the conditioning methods advocated by martial sports will do you more harm than good in the long run.

like what? running? lifting weights? sparring? calesthenics? It's just like CMA conditiong - when done properly, it's fine, but if done wrong, you can injure yourself.

I tend to think that having somebody drop a medicine ball on your stomach is not good for you. Look at the average life span of professional boxers and it just has to make you wonder if that kind of training takes years off of your life.

It's not the training at all - it's the competition. they fight and are constantly taking shots. If there was a venue for full contact wing chun, for example, and it reached the level of competiton that boxing has, then you would see similar results.


I am not sure if having somebody whack you with a thai pad into your stomach is a good idea, either. The chinese martial arts do a better job of taking into consideration the possible ill effects of conditioning and they protect the practitioner's health from them, imho. I welcome any constructive criticism about this. Peace.

I'm not sure I want to take a chance on iron palm, as it can have adverse effects when improperly done. Doesn't the same apply to golden bell and most other forms of conditioning? just like a good sifu will show you the proper way to do something, so will a good coach.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Oh come now. Cubans and Filipino boxers do all sorts of trapping.

;)

:p

[Water Dragon]

The Golden Bell will mess you up if you do it CORRECTLY

Do it wrong, and it's a one way ticket to the looney bin.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
The Golden Bell will mess you up if you do it CORRECTLY

Do it wrong, and it's a one way ticket to the looney bin.

Seriously? How does it mess you up if done correctly?

[Water Dragon]

They say that for some reason, there's a lot of pyschological effects. One of them is that your mind goes through basically every bad moment in your life and relives it.

Remember getting beat up and picked on in 2nd grade? You'll relive it.

Remember that first girl you had a crush on that broke your heart? You'll relive it.

Ever lose a friend or loved one, deal with depression, feel suicidal, etc? Yeah, you'll relive that too.

They do say that once you go through it your psyche will heal itself, but that's a little too intense for me.

[FngSaiYuk]

Oh no way!! Hmmm... OK, I'll have to confess that I had trained in Iron Shirt about 8 years ago... was really into it and regular. I also started following chikung exercises from Mantak Chia and read through a couple of Yang Jwing Ming's books. So I was pretty much along the path to training up to Golden Bell.

Interestingly enough, I DID start getting flashbacks of uncomfortable times from my past. Was very unusual. I really didn't think much of it, other than feeling I had some issues when I was younger and was only then really able to deal with them.

Anyways, I only trained regularly along that path for about 18months before normal life stuff reduced my training time. I haven't done any real chi work since, beyond basic chi circulation exercises, meditations and some taichi.

[Oso]

I think the idea that a little bit of iron palm training makes for a deadly kung fu killer is one of the things that gives kung fu training for fighting a bad name.

I have rarely seen anyone go through the training (diet and chi kung included) long enough to really learn to generate the power to make a slap or a finger poke powerful, yet they think they have.

yet they train techniques that I think were originally developed, and valid at the time, for chinese fighters whose life was fighting/bodyguarding/caravan guarding. So, they did have the time to train these things to the level needed to be effective with it.

once again, it's the training.

[FngSaiYuk]

I understand what you mean by training regularly enough to make a difference. In my particular case I happened to train rather diligently for about 18 months and it did make a difference. My skin definately thickened up, yet retained flexibility and smoothness. I worked out with heavy weights quite a bit back then, too, and despite not using gloves, I never developed the calluses that the other weightlifters had... something I attribute to the iron palm training (my previous heavy weight training prior to iron palm training DID leave me w/calluses rather quickly).

But yah, most of the guys I knew who took the same iron training courses didn't train as often as I and didn't follow the diet and meditations and medicines.

I do intend to being iron training again, since its one of the things I do still remember after the years of inactivity. The diet may be a bit more difficult nowadays, considering where I've moved to. I haven't found any reliable information on ordering medicines over the internet yet, but am researching what's available.

[Oso]

FSY, my rant was directed at you personally, or anyone else. just an observation.

I did IP for a year, maybe a little more and had some noticible increase in things.

then I got lazy ;) :p

[FngSaiYuk]

Oso, I understand, I didn't take it as such. My response was more of an illustration of my experiences, including support of your observation (since I observed the same thing with most of those who were in the initial training with me).

I didn't get lazy or anything...instead I ended up traveling quite a bit, which really reduced the amount of time I had to train. Then I ended up with the responsibility of a family, etc... Basically life hit me ::grin::

Now I'm finding I'm able to find time to train again. My challenge being the sole practitioner (that I can find) in the area.

[phantom]

The key is what kung lek said, without preventative medicine, which is what mmaers do not use when they are conditioning. I have heard that some muay thai people use a thai liniment, although some people claim that it is not as good as dit da jow, I don't know if it is or not. There was once an article in Tae Kwon Do Times magazine that talked about how many karate people of old who regurlarly hit a makiwara died from cancer at fairly young ages. Perhaps if they had used herbal medicines in their training, they would not have gotten cancer. I certainly don't disagree with you guys about taking head shots contributing to taking years off of a person's life though. Peace.