How often have you ever been attacked?

[YongChun]

With all the reality talk you would think being attacked by a good fighter is a highly probable thing for some people. So my question is how often have you been attacked in your life and what is the chance you might get attacked? For me, I have never been attacked after high school which was about 37 years ago. Since then I have heard of no cases among any of my friends, classmates or students or relatives who were attacked on the street. I live in Canada so maybe it's safer here but people do get attacked according to the news. The only students I know who ever had physical confrontations were those students who worked as police officers, correctional officers or bouncers. There was one guy at my work who got mugged once in his life. In view of this most people just do martial arts for a fun hobby and don't train as intensively as they would if attack was a common occurence or if they were interested in competitive fighting. I have only met one student in all these years who wanted to compete. So in a peaceful situation students delve more into all kinds of fine points in the arts they are studying and aren't just concerned with developing a strong punch and kick. I think Wing Chun is a multi-faceted art which one can study for a lifetime. I think Tai Chi, Aikido and Escrima are the same.

[anerlich]

People do get attacked every day. But most situations can be avoided with "politeness, the forgotten martial art" (which I need to practice more on this forum, I suppose) or by the measures discussed in "Strong on Defense" or similar.

Supposedly you're about 100,000 times more likely to die as the result of lifestyle-related heart disease than you are as the victim of violent crime, so any training you do would sensibly address cardiovascular fitness. Before any of you smara$$es make the clever remarks about statistics, I'll jump in first:

"Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination".

IMO there is much to be gained from competition, formal and otherwise, in the building and testing of character, determination and guts, realistic assessment of strengths and weaknesses, motivation and goal-setting. Most people can do this a lot longer than they think IMO.

If I ever turn into a fat ba$tard who "doesn't need to train hard any more" and talks tough based on his "skills too deadly to spar with," I deserve to get shot by the firearm or run over by the car I was too fat to dodge, both of which show the limitations of every MA.

[YongChun]

Well it's true that hard training will make your body look better anyway and also improve your realistic chances in a self defense situation.

One of my fellow student likes the relaxed approach for fighting but also likes to train the harder approach with a lot of snap in order to tone his muscles.

[stuartm]

Every time i do a private lesson with my students I get attacked !!!!!;)

[old jong]

I usually get attacked once or twice a month by "custommers" at my hospital!...There is a trend these days to lower medications so,it produce more attacks on the personal. Strangely,they rarely attack eachothers and prefer employees to demonstrate their "skills"!...Must be because the staff is only allowed to defend and restrict and are not biting,scratching,punching,kicking,headbutting,spi tting and automutilating to throw blood at them,like some of them do?...

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong- sanity is a relative term!!!

[old jong]

I have seen a few employees join the "dark side" and was forced to jump on them to protect the patients and to save my colleague's job. Some can get very tired emotionaly after many years in that domain and lose their temper.

So far I always managed to stay calm and do only what is necessary for the job but I wonder how I would react if a jerk would attack me on the street or somewhere else,putting me in a self-defense situation!...Or worse!...Attacking my wife or dauthers!...

[t_niehoff]

It's very improbable that in civilized societies most people, if they live healthy lifestyles and use common sense, are going to be "attacked" by anyone, skilled or unskilled. And if they are "attacked", empty-hand fighting skills probably aren't going to help that much. As this is the case, it isn't a very productive use of time or energy to spend years training diligently in a martial art just to be able to respond to some remote possibility, especially when a "self-defense" course or some pepper spray is all they will ever need. There is more to martial arts than "self-defense" and much more to "self-defense" than martial arts.

The reason we train in fighting methods (martial arts) is to develop fighting skills. Boxers, muay thai fighters, MMaists, BJJists, etc. practice those arts because they like fighting and want to become better at it. Folks that don't like fighting shouldn't practice martial arts IMO -- just like folks that don't like heights shouldn't take up hang-gliding. Because if you take the fighting out of fighting arts, you have nothing left (except delusion).

YongChun wrote:

"With all the reality talk you would think being attacked by a good fighter is a highly probable thing for some people. "

No, the discussion was about developing fighting skill, and the "reality" is that we develop fighting skill by fighting with skillful opponents.

"So in a peaceful situation students delve more into all kinds of fine points in the arts they are studying and aren't just concerned with developing a strong punch and kick. I think Wing Chun is a multi-faceted art which one can study for a lifetime. I think Tai Chi, Aikido and Escrima are the same."

If someone wants to "practice" WCK, a fighting method, without concern for developing fighting skill that is certainly their perogative. However, if one does, then besides having no competant fighting skill, they will also have no real understanding of the art, let alone a grasp of the "fine points", because everything hinges on application. You can "study" dry-land swimming a lifetime, but it won't make you a good swimmer in the wateer and you will never have a clue about swimming. What do you call someone that "studies" a martial art for a lifetime but can't even hold their own against a competant fighter? I call them pathetic.

Regards,

Terence

PS - "Without concern for developing a strong punch or kick"? This has to be a joke.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff [/i]
It's very improbable that in civilized societies most people, if they live healthy lifestyles and use common sense, are going to be "attacked" by anyone, skilled or unskilled. And if they are "attacked", empty-hand fighting skills probably aren't going to help that much. As this is the case, it isn't a very productive use of time or energy to spend years training diligently in a martial art just to be able to respond to some remote possibility, especially when a "self-defense" course or some pepper spray is all they will ever need. There is more to martial arts than "self-defense" and much more to "self-defense" than martial arts.

I certainly agree with this. - Ray

The reason we train in fighting methods (martial arts) is to develop fighting skills. Boxers, muay thai fighters, MMaists, BJJists, etc. practice those arts because they like fighting and want to become better at it. Folks that don't like fighting shouldn't practice martial arts IMO -- just like folks that don't like heights shouldn't take up hang-gliding. Because if you take the fighting out of fighting arts, you have nothing left (except delusion).

Those who practice this should try to fight against those arts that develop fighters and not just against low level types in those arts. It's not easy to find good qaulity fighters of all styles in any one city. It's very different fighting against THai and Jujitsu from fighting against Preying Mantis, Hung style, Tai chi, Sanda, Capoeira etc. etc. A good test of one's Wing Chun is to fight against high level competitors of all these arts. If you can beat a boxer or Jujitsu guy, it doesn't mean you can beat any of the other kinds of fighters. Folks that like fighting should try to put WIng Chun on the map these days. The WT people did a good job with this in Germany when they were growing their empire. Now 90% study WT for the art and some self defense and maybe 10% are fighters. I don't think they want to kick out those other 90%. These people enjoy it and don't like the risk of injury. After a certain age , things take a long long time to heal. I think what a few WT people did was the smartest. Leung Ting gets to do the art he loves all day long. He has delved into all aspects of WIng Chun to study it as an ART and he has become very rich at it. If he went out and fought and got his face punched in then he would have achieved nothing. - Ray

YongChun wrote:

"With all the reality talk you would think being attacked by a good fighter is a highly probable thing for some people. "

No, the discussion was about developing fighting skill, and the "reality" is that we develop fighting skill by fighting with skillful opponents.

"So in a peaceful situation students delve more into all kinds of fine points in the arts they are studying and aren't just concerned with developing a strong punch and kick. I think Wing Chun is a multi-faceted art which one can study for a lifetime. I think Tai Chi, Aikido and Escrima are the same."

If someone wants to "practice" WCK, a fighting method, without concern for developing fighting skill that is certainly their perogative. - Terrence

I don't think anyone is advocating that at all. However there are different approaches to developing fighting skills. Each classical art has good fighters. They all train in different ways. The fighters in each can deliver a good hit while not getting hit themselves. - Ray


However, if one does, then besides having no competant fighting skill, they will also have no real understanding of the art, let alone a grasp of the "fine points", because everything hinges on application.

That seems to be particularly true of Tai Chi. It's most often taught without application. However a small percentage are very top notch fighters. So it's not the art but the training method. - Ray


You can "study" dry-land swimming a lifetime, but it won't make you a good swimmer in the wateer and you will never have a clue about swimming. - Terrence

What most people do is recreational swimming. Few people train to swim competitively, to swim in a stormy ocean, to swim for saving someone's life, to swim in shark infested waters, to scuba dive, etc. There are many many facets to swimming and it's all swimming. Once you develop WIng Chun fighting skills then you can still study the art for a lifetime and it shows in people who do that. Kickboxing and Thai boxing and boxing are not the same kinds of arts where people tend to do this. - Ray

What do you call someone that "studies" a martial art for a lifetime but can't even hold their own against a competant fighter? I call them pathetic.

This point can be argued. For Emin Boztepe a competent fighter would be someone different than for Joy or Kathy Jo or myself because we don't have time to train all day long. Maybe Doleman, Dekker, and Bluming would be competent fighters for Emin. If he can't handle them, then he is not a competent fighter. The bar is higher for him. You can be number one in your city for sports but on a state level come in last and really suck. THat doesn't mean your not a good sportsman. - Ray

Regards,

Terence

PS - "Without concern for developing a strong punch or kick"? This has to be a joke.

What I meant was that there is more to martial arts than just doing what kickboxers do. After you develop a reasonable punch and kick and fighting skills you don't need to (with everyone's limited time) just hit the gym everyday to develop a streonger and stronger punch and kick until your body wears out. It doesn't mean not punching anything. Anyway the message was that there is a lot to develop in Wing Chun which all relates to fighting. I have seen lots of scrappers who love to go and fight but there is no art in it. They can take a punch and give a punch and just have a killer, I hate everyone attitude. I don't admire these people. Any human endeaver can be taken to an art level and that includes fighting without the risk of hanging your eyeball hanging out of the side of your head. That's plain idiotic.

[old jong]

What do you call someone that "studies" a martial art for a lifetime but can't even hold their own against a competant fighter? I call them pathetic.
Names please! Who are you talking about? ...Where?....When?


Folks that don't like fighting shouldn't practice martial arts IMO
Most people are not willing to hurt others if not forced to.Most people think fighting is not a game.I'm not talking about friendly sparring or even competition if that's what you call fighting.


And if they are "attacked", empty-hand fighting skills probably aren't going to help that much.
So a good punch will only be effective in your kind of "fighting"?...



No, the discussion was about developing fighting skill,
No!...The discussion is about "being attacked" Read the thread title.

BTW,there is so much reference to swimming that we get all wet by reading your posts!...Could you change your broken record?...

[Vajramusti]

Ray sez:

a competent fighter would be someone different than for Joy or Kathy Jo or myself because we don't have time to train all day long.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, I cant train all day. Training can vary according to the rules,
venue, context, goals, competition, skill maintenace etc. .. even for the same individual. But I practice a martial art- not ballet.
And- there is no off season.

I dont follow Terence's oft repeated advice on fighting regimens---
but I believe confidence in one's ability, skills. courage, judgement and overall martial competence- are achievable goals
for lots of folks..

The rest is the roll of the dice and karma.

[jay]

Hi I think, that people there are trained to fight, takes the distance from fighting, on the street, but if they are forced to, they will do it, if they have trained well, and belive in themselfs. But people there don´t train, don´t know how it´s is to get punched real real hard. And that´s why you almost never meet a skilled fighter in the street. If you met him, know matter what style he doés, and you do, the result will be ugly. Rememer thats what i think. But a good question, because, to talk about fighting, you must be abel to do it, and have the rutine of fighting, so you how it is to feel, the strees that your mind are under, when facing your opponent. Sorry for my spelling.

[KingMonkey]

For once I agree with the aging gaul.

Ixnay on the swimming analogy-ay.

I have been attacked totally unprovoked once. But that could be one time too many - right ?

A physical response may not be a big part of self defence but it is a part of it, hopefully a rarely used one like a car seat belt, you still want to wear one that will work.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Ray sez:

a competent fighter would be someone different than for Joy or Kathy Jo or myself because we don't have time to train all day long.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, I cant train all day. Training can vary according to the rules,
venue, context, goals, competition, skill maintenace etc. .. even for the same individual. But I practice a martial art- not ballet.
And- there is no off season.

I dont follow Terence's oft repeated advice on fighting regimens---
but I believe confidence in one's ability, skills. courage, judgement and overall martial competence- are achievable goals
for lots of folks..

The rest is the roll of the dice and karma.

Hey Joy, I didn't say you and Kathy-Jo are not competent fighters but probably don't care to go all out every day, risk injury or fight people approaching the professional level nor do you want your students to sustain injury.

Also I think both of you see a lot of depth in the Wing Chun art that goes very much beyond kickboxing type training and fighting. At the same time you both are practicing fighting and if need be I am sure you have what it takes to be aggressive. People who fight in wars train from a few months to two years and then off they go to war. The ability to fight for real is a mindset and there are so many variables. Training is one important variable of course. If the guy is better than you you will lose. If you are better than him you will win. Circumstances, luck and lots of other things play a part.

Traditional Kung Fu has a lot in it to master. In Hung style you pretty well need a few hours every day for ten solid years to master the forms alone. Choy Lee Fut has even more, maybe more than 115 forms. All this builds up the body, speed, strength and all kinds of attributes to prepare for fighting according to that style. There is no way you can move like Chen Tai Chi stylist Chen Xiao Wang without more than ten years or 20 years of intensive training.

Beginners reading a lot of these post may get anxious to fight in a hurry without having mastered anything. True Kung Fu takes time to develop. You can't rush it. If you need to fight in a war in a hurry then Kung Fu is not the way to go and if it is then Wing Chun is probably still the shortest way there too.

If someone's form is bad then mostly their fighting will be bad too. Good form on the other hand does not imply good fighjting but is a prerequisite to good fighting. Good form taks a lot of time to develop. Anyone who has studied a traditional form of fighting understands this.

I think Aikido people are true martial artists even though they do not compete. Some can use it and some can't. I wouldn't tell them all that they should stay home because they don't fight. They are not training dancing either.

[kj]

Originally posted by YongChun
I didn't say you and Kathy-Jo are not competent fighters

Competence is context sensitive. At any given moment, what we each have in skills and wits is what we have; anything more is wishful thinking or luck. Only on a fateful day of calling will we find out if we have "enough" and can apply it adequately in that time and place.

To me, competence is a continuum of development, rather than an on/off function. I don't believe anyone goes from not-competent to suddenly-competent.


but probably don't care to go all out every day, risk injury or fight people approaching the professional level nor do you want your students to sustain injury.

This is a fair characterization. If I were still young and immortal, maybe I would have different aspirations. Maybe I would evaluate risks, consequences, and ethics differently too. But probably not much differently. I have always viewed things much the same; just more experienced and confident in my perspectives now. Or more incorrigible, depending on POV, LOL.



Also I think both of you see a lot of depth in the Wing Chun art that goes very much beyond kickboxing type training and fighting. At the same time you both are practicing fighting and if need be I am sure you have what it takes to be aggressive.

I don't seem to lack for aggressiveness. Perhaps ironically, I must work diligently to keep aggressiveness in check. I have found that it gets in the way and deprives me of greater learning and improvement when it becomes even remotely out of balance to the present situation. Not to mention a shift in the probabilities or impact of risks between training partners. Beyond technical skill, you can learn a lot about yourself, your ego, and your values through the practice of things like Wing Chun.

To the thread topic, the question of being attacked is an interesting one, and not as simple as it may seem on the surface. Attacked under what circumstances and by whom?

On forums like these conversations and mental images often drift to barroom brawls, random street violence, or some Silence of the Lambs type of abductions. While there is never a 100% guarantee, there is a lot most of us can (and IMHO should) do toward avoiding and preventing those kinds of things and mitigate the probability of occurrence. Of course things will look different if you are seeking fights, or on some level hoping for violent encounters and chances to "throw down" in order to test your skills.

When it comes to attacks and violence, my concerns tend to drift toward more complicated scenarios like those involving people you know. It could be violence from spouses or significant others, abuse by or toward parents, or other scenarios like the drunken and raving brother-in-law, some wacky person from work, or a neighbor who decides to stalk you, or someone out to get revenge for some real or imagined wrong. At least in the United States, more people seem to be victimized by someone they know.

Many people will not talk so openly about these kinds of things on internet forums. So real answers to even simple questions about being attacked or other personal experiences with violence can be quite complicated, and unlikely to be adequately explored in venues like these.

A lot of what we take for granted in generalized forum discussions like these may be wrong, or a mere fraction of the bigger picture. I guess a lot of it depends on the assumptions we make.

Regards,
- kj

[Vajramusti]

Ray- I know you didnt- I understood and agreed with your posts.