A fade away story -- A dilemma

[Hendrik]

( abstracted from the dairy of a MAD man)


Is it the dilemma of Siu Lim Tau?
Or is it the dilemma of the decendent of every generation since hundred years ago?


Siu Lim Tau,
The details training.....
Rooted in Awareness.
Awareness in every small details: physical, mind, breathing, medirians, joins, tendon, structure, momentum, resultant force, potential......
Beyond all type of conciousness or thought patterns or fomulars.
Via Awareness,
Effective, elegant, conciseness Action is possible.

No longer needs to remember 1000 examples
No longer needs to remember hundreds of bridge hands
Action transcents from Awareness
That is the true paradigm shift.
The utilization of the True Emptiness Wonderfull existance.
The Silence The effortless alertness The Awareness.


But then how do one express Awareness?
But then how do one train Awareness?
But then how do one teaches the Awareness within the Action in all conditions.
For Hundred of years,
some tries to transmitte it via set
via different type of Chi Sau
Via listening.
Via intention....
Keep trying...

But then,
when Awareness is objectify,
The Action becomes a repeated habitual motion.
become rigid steps
become copying print
become lifeless.

Then, it leaves the root even further
Formulars, lines, shapes, Kiu, philosophies derive from thoughts and speculations.
That once upon a time breakdown of steps trying to do partial transmitting or illustration or to hand hold the beginners, become the ultimate, become the original........
Drift Away from that subdue action with silence and that one stroke
replace with ten thousand of hands and stories which cant even sustain a wrestle's take down.....

Yee, Shen, Niem,
intention, attention, thought
Sheh or Concious,
Ch'ier or awareness...
what is what? which is which?

Does one still do SLT?
Does one needs some advance SLT?
Or
one has to master AWARENESS.
And then ACtion will go naturely.
Be it physical, structural, breathing, Qi, applications.....



A dillemma.
since hundred of years
The paradigm shift from Emei's Goldern Summit Temple.
AWARENESS,
the Kwan Yins (kanno in japanese, Avalokitasvara in sanskrit) thousand hands and eyes
or it is called the Snake body.
Like a Snake aware of every little part of its body.
or it is called the Spide waiting in its web.
Like a spide aware of the environment surronded it.


A dilemma.
A story about the Spring's life force -- True Emptiness and Wonderfull existance --- fade away.
In a cold robotic world of macho ego.


There will be a butterfly effect --- a butterfly flipping its Wings in somewhere produce a tronado in Pacific Ocean. and the little wind from the Wings of the Butterfly is the carrier of the AWARENESS.



PS
When you do SLT tonight, forget about everything but that beautiful Butterfly flipping its wings and produce that soft wind.
Do you aware of that soft wind?
Do you aware of the present of yourself?
Do you aware of the what is in your mind?
Do you aware of your toes while moving your fingers?
Do you aware of you dont have to copy anyone?
Do you aware about awareness?
Is it listen or is it Aware?


or you just standing there trying to relax but stuck in a hundred years dilemma.................

Awareness is lighter then the soft wind produce by the little butterfly. But, it exist and alive and can lead one to subdue the action with silence. It is no where but it is everywhere....
Isnt that a True Emptiness Wonderfull Existance?

[old jong]

You know the story about Mass Oyama who trained two students in different ways?...One was trained like a military,doing all kinds of hard exercices.He was taught all the tricks in the book,strategies,sparred all day long,etc...He also gained lots of muscle
The other had to meditate for hours everydays,standing still like a Buddha,breathing in the lower tandem or tantien.He was practicing kata and light exercices.He lost some weight and grew wiry.
After a while,Oyama had them to spar eachothers.The "thinker" won the match with ease!...

I read this story in an old book called "Zen Combat" by Jay Gluck (ballantine books) Is it a true story?...;)

[Phenix]

Awareness without Action goes no where.
Action without Awareness is a mess.


The thinker is illusive. Just another thoughts stream.
It is the one gets one into the trouble of debating theory and fighting. :D

The silent watcher of the thinker is the it.
The question is who has "see" that silent watcher?

Activate the SLT with the it.

Then, one sees the beauty instead of my sifu told me this way, that way, or the formular says this and that, or this time, that space..... this is the ancestors' mouth to ear teaching...

Living in in Awareness is living in Now. why stagnated with passed?

Even a fighting discussion is about past. It will never happen exactly the same again. So, why live there?

[old jong]

I know that! The term "thinker" is a quote from the book.A very "american" type of book.;) from the sixties I guess. The "silent watcher" was a stranger back then in america.
;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by old jong
I know that! The term "thinker" is a quote from the book.A very "american" type of book.;) from the sixties I guess. The "silent watcher" was a stranger back then in america.
;)


Thus, some can makes lots of money with all those old ancient Chinese riture, attunement, talking Zen.... selling the past which promised the future salvation which never come. :D

It just need a butterfly to feel the weak wind, and it said it all --- the wind, the feeler, the thinker, the silent watcher..
The object (wind) the subjective experience ( the the feeler) the speculator ( the thinker) the Awareness ( the silence watcher) .... and ofcorse this is a generalized intelectualized model. need real action to get there. Observe and one shall "see".

The focus, the intention, or the Yee. The present, The Attention, is the Shen or Spirit as it translated. The thinker is the Niem. The heart... guess what? The Awareness. Not the thoughts or the thinker. that who knows how to speculate and think is not oneself but one's thoughts.


Dont think and just observed. everything is there. one doesnt need the cable company for the secret code or personal teaching.

Then, it expands and grow out to applications... non-reactive response.


But then all still intelecturized stuffs and theory. so how to do it? observe observe...

It is not about Kiu or bridge. it is about rooted in Awareness. And that is Wing Chun Kuen all about according to the MAD man.

He is Mad but he has no dilemma. In the ancient time, they call the above Sum Faat. or heart Method or Heart of the Method. Can a person live without the heart? Can a person live without Awareness? They call the one live without Awareness is dead right? :D

[canglong]

( abstracted from the dairy of a MAD man) How appropriate for someone having a conversation online with himself. LOL wondering which one will answer this hendrik, phenix both or will you need to open a new account. :D

[old jong]

Maybe you should create a new name such as Hendrfnix or something?...;) :D (try to say that aloud without blowing your nose!);)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
How appropriate for someone having a conversation online with himself. LOL wondering which one will answer this hendrik, phenix both or will you need to open a new account. :D





Some have the technology.
Some have the Troll-nology.
Some have the History.
Some have the His-story.
Some is MAD but exist in the world.
Some has named but never exist in the world.
Some has tons of teaching derive from thoughts
some has master the Awareness.



Is he who aware of the Madness MAD?
Or the one think and believe he is always the righteous MAD?

Does it matter what is the identity?
or Does it matter if the truth is present?
That will depend on the person.


There is a feeler, a Thinker, a silence listener/watcher. which is which? hahahaha who are you? Do you know?

( abstract from the dairy of a MAD man)

[canglong]

Trying to be all things at all cost can cause one to forget his own name. "some" but not all which one are you today.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
Trying to be all things at all cost can cause one to forget his own name. "some" but not all which one are you today.



You love to be a robot with an ID and program by your master?
Great. Why not.

[anerlich]

Is it a true story?...

It's definitely a story ...

If it were true, the sample size is way to small for the result to be statistically valid.

I 've got incontrovertible evidence. Remember in "Rambo" when Sly says "the mind is the best weapon" (or something like that)?

Surely no one can argue with a reference so exalted. :cool:

[anerlich]

Trying to be all things at all cost can cause one to forget his own name.

You know, I always DID wonder why it changed from Hung Suen to Hung Fa Yi.

Left yourself open for THAT one, bub ....

[Shawn LaShay]

Hi Phenix,
Is there such a thing as "butterfly ging" (don't laugh)?.... I've heard this expression used before.
Thanx, Shawn

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Shawn LaShay
Hi Phenix,
Is there such a thing as "butterfly ging" (don't laugh)?.... I've heard this expression used before.
Thanx, Shawn


Sure.

Why not?

If you want to name the "sensing" touch which is as light as a butterfly landed on other's limb analogically?

But those are names. We are in the big dilemma for past hundred of years about naming and more naming. A wasting of time.

what is the content and how to do it is more important right? otherwise we are fantasying.

[AmanuJRY]

It is funny how, when using this illustration, people don't aknowledge the millions of other butterflies that also contribute there own 'effect' to the mix. The idea that one butterfly is the only cause of the tornado is foolish.

[duende]

Originally posted by anerlich
You know, I always DID wonder why it changed from Hung Suen to Hung Fa Yi.

Left yourself open for THAT one, bub ....

I'd think you'd be happy that we made our real name public. Especially as your group has chosen to adopt the name we used for the printing of "The Complete Wing Chun". It's all yours bub...

Really though, we've been down this road before. I think all parties would be better served if they kept their arguments between themselves, and not resort to lineage bashing

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
The idea that one butterfly is the only cause of the tornado is foolish.



Is the Buterfly effect about ONE butterfly or the Butterfly effect means a phenomenon of SENSITIVE DEPENDENCE ON INITIAL CONDITIONS?

Butterfly Effect, simply stated, it means that the tiny changes brought about by a butterfly moving its wings in yosemity national park have the power to transform the weather condition in Beijing.


Foolish or not has all to do with the thinker with its thoughts pattern and judgemental habit of the thinker.

IE: A person who always have fear of snake will mistakenly think a shadow of a coil rope as the present of snake. There is where the Dilemma starts.....

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Is the Buterfly effect about ONE butterfly or the Butterfly effect means a phenomenon of SENSITIVE DEPENDENCE ON INITIAL CONDITIONS?

Butterfly Effect, simply stated, it means that the tiny changes brought about by a butterfly moving its wings in yosemity national park have the power to transform the weather condition in Beijing.

Does it???
Does the butterfly have this power without the 'help' of other butterflies? birds? jet airplanes?

What I'm asking is, is it 'sensitive dependence on initial conditions' or dependence on a myriad of conditions, initial or otherwise?

[canglong]

originally posted by anerlich
You know, I always DID wonder why it changed from Hung Suen to Hung Fa Yi. Understandably you would have to first know what "it" is to then understand the error of what you wonder.

[canglong]

originally posted by phenix/aka hendrik
You love to be a robot with an ID and program by your master? Great. Why not.
"When he is born, man is soft and weak; In death he becomes stiff and hard.

Man, be soft!"

[AmanuJRY]

Hendrik
But then how do one express Awareness?
But then how do one train Awareness?
But then how do one teaches the Awareness within the Action in all conditions.

For Hundred(s) of years,
some tries to transmitte it via set
via different type of Chi Sau
Via listening.
Via intention....
Keep trying...

But then,
when Awareness is objectify,
The Action becomes a repeated habitual motion.
become rigid steps
become copying print
become lifeless.

Then, it leaves the root even further
Formulars, lines, shapes, Kiu, philosophies derive from thoughts and speculations.
That once upon a time breakdown of steps trying to do partial transmitting or illustration or to hand hold the beginners, become the ultimate, become the original........
Drift Away from that subdue action with silence and that one stroke
replace with ten thousand of hands and stories which cant even sustain a wrestle's take down.....

Yee, Shen, Niem,
intention, attention, thought
Sheh or Concious,
Ch'ier or awareness...
what is what? which is which?

Does one still do SLT?
Does one needs some advance SLT?
Or
one has to master AWARENESS.
And then ACtion will go naturely.
Be it physical, structural, breathing, Qi, applications.....

Definately a better course for your post than the 'butterfly effect' analogy.

How does awareness manifest?
With or without thought?
Where does awareness manifest?
In the cortex?
the pituitary?

How is awareness developed without understanding?
How is awareness trained without experience?
How does one become aware of awareness without a guide?
Can you see the moon without first looking to the finger?

Does SLT develop awareness?
or does awareness develop SLT?

Will awareness sustain a wrestler's takedown without the 'ten thousands of hands'?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Does it???
Does the butterfly have this power without the 'help' of other butterflies? birds? jet airplanes?

What I'm asking is, is it 'sensitive dependence on initial conditions' or dependence on a myriad of conditions, initial or otherwise?


The Butterfly effect is an analogy symbolic name.

The formal name for this phenomenon is "'sensitive dependence on initial conditions'.

It only said, a tiny change in input can quickly created an overwhelmingly different output.

Such as a small different in angle of direction of a travel plane will cause thousand of miles off the track.

Butterfly effect is just an analogy/imformal name from some guy name Edward Lorenz, a research meterologist at MIT who created a computer program model to model the weather... similar to that guy in the movie " the day after tomorrow"


Why let the thinker takes over and snowballing with thougts grasping thoughts and see not what it is?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
"When he is born, man is soft and weak; In death he becomes stiff and hard.

Man, be soft!"


Is Killing the Manchurian a soft thing?
Robot programed to kill Manchurian is cold and stiff and hard.


Be Soft? Be Alive? Be free? Be effective? Be simple? Be ....

One needs AWARENESS not formulars or some sayings or some lines or some points....
One needs AWARENESS not some other's past experience.

Just an AWARENESS, But not carrying all those burden in the mind and body which get one into soooo rigid robot like.

One can go to MO KWOON training 24 hours aday for a 100years and still rigid like robot.

So, dump all those burden, Only Then, one can be soft and alive and simple and effective... in the ACTION.

It is a huge dilemma whether to dump all those past promised with the never coming future salvation, isnt it?

But what if the core of the teaching is about to DUMP all those past promised with the never coming future salvation? Free one from the consciouness STATE of fear of to be free and truely independent? No longer has an Identity create by someone else and maintain by some one else, in exchange of one's lifeforce?




Like a monkey put its hand into a glass container and graping a candy in the container, but trap the hand in the container.

let go, the hand will be free. keep graping the candy, the hand will be continous to stuck in the container, that is not free. But totally stuck.

dont one feel heavy and not free with those Bai Jong stuffs?
just strike if one want to strike. why those tired some Bai Jong and what does it do anyway after the 1st second of the fight? or when other rush in and push both of the upper arms in toward the body or aside?

Bai Jong is a dilemma isnt it? Keep it will "looks" like a great wing chun, let it go, one will be free to do anything.



Does SLT train those dilemma stuffs to get one into dilemma instead of free oneself?

Saying that but then, that might not be good for baby who still doesnt know how to claw and walk.


(abstracted from the diary of a MAD man)

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
1, It is my decision to give answer to you or not, to give you how many answer, or answer you how far. That is my freedom, right? So what to complain? Your dilemma is simple either you have an answer or you don't. There is no shame in admitting you don't know the answer.

[Ernie]

Hendrik
nice post about awareness and freedom
about holding on to security blankets [ stances ,shapes ,forms systems ]

i totally agree , once you know , then you know no need to travel backwards only when you don't really know , will you be forced to hang onto shapes and stance and forms etc .. like a drowning man reaching for a life preserver :)

so why be so obsessed with what *you* need slt to be
when as you state the real freedom is a second after the fight starts and there is real live energy ?

why be so obsessed with names , times , locations. families , titles , pictures. stories

when these are all dead things moments that will never happen again ?

why not just walk on care free and live
we will die soon enough and then let others worry about how we stood , and were your big toe was :D

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
One needs AWARENESS not formulars or some sayings or some lines or some points....
One needs AWARENESS not some other's past experience.



Originally posted by Da moose[i]
What? Are you kidding me? You’re saying this, the “master of fleeing from direct questions”? If you’re not willing to answer questions that are directly posed to you, who are you to be lecturing others on the proper methodology behind question asking???!!!???

Hendrik,

Your experience will be most enjoyable if you free your mind from expectations. There is nothing so good as the wind and the sun for diving the foolishness out of one.

Just pay attention to what you do see and hear:


[i]Originally posted by diego
so kiu is forearm...can you use all sides of the forearm?...what exactly is kiu?.

can you please define distance attack and clear path of attack and seal off and neutralize with counter?


Originally posted by TenTigers
Hendrik, not for nothing, but...your quotes of people's quotes of people's quotes on this board is the same as your quotes from Lam Sai-Wing's books-which were written by Leung Dat, I believe.

"I am "technical oriented" not techniq oriented. A concept is great, a concept without the How to implement, What kind of enginee behind it, and how the enginee operate and technic exercute. what is it's potential. Doesnt really say much."

What's an enginee? I haven't a clue what you are saying.

[anerlich]

Understandably you would have to first know what "it" is to then understand the error of what you wonder.

The word "understandably" does not belong in that sentence, if it is in fact a sentence.

You and Hendrik have much in common.

[Hendrik]

Ernie,

There are race car drivers who continous to race until crash and die.

There are race car drivers who work with Car designers contribute to design a better race car.

There are race car drivers become instructor in Driving School to teach better, safer driving for the common people.

There are race car drivers decide to stay home and observe the racing experience and write article about the different racing or become a racing reporter.

There are...


After one becomes a race car driver. One can choose thier mission in life. Can they race. Sure, but everyone has a different mission.

The World needs different position filled with car racers to make racing better. There are many different ways to contribute to racing.

if you are a race car driver what path do you choose?

[anerlich]

I think all parties would be better served if they kept their arguments between themselves, and not resort to lineage bashing

So Tony can bash Hendrik personally and that's OK (no probs there since I do it too), but if I bash Tony via his lineage that's a mortal sin?

I'll avoid it in future then - there's so much other material to use in any case.

It's a catchy name, Hung Suen, ain't it? We adopted it because of its generic nature - maybe some others need something that sounds "more special" ...

Your purchase on the moral high ground is pretty slippery - be careful you don't fall and dislocate your superego.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Hendrik
after one becomes a race car driver. One can choose thier mission in life. Can they race. Sure, but everyone has a different mission.

The World needs different position filled with car racers to make racing better. There are many different ways to contribute to racing.

and there are race car drivers that could never win a race and spend there life talking about those that did


i get it :D

i'm off this thread , not really my cup of tea , just wanted to ask you a question , thanks for the reply ;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY

Will awareness sustain a wrestler's takedown without the 'ten thousands of hands'?



Without Awareness what works?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Without Awareness what works?

I think I know the answer.
.
.
Ready!??!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
Da Doo Run, Run, Run, Da Doo Run, Run!

[Hendrik]

and there are race car drivers that could never win a race and spend there life talking about those that did -----


There are Hero and Tragic Hero.
some win hundred of race and have only to lost one. and it becomes a total loser.
Some lost hundred of race and have only to win one. And it become a total Winner.
Some dont want to win because Winning does mean much anymore.



when as you state the real freedom is a second after the fight starts and there is real live energy ------


real freedom is at any time and any place.
which instant is a race? None.
There is only ---- be there before everyone.



According to the MAD man, "what fight? there is no fight . Just Drop whoever standing infront."

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
Your dilemma is simple either you have an answer or you don't. There is no shame in admitting you don't know the answer.

Do you aware of you are chasing and spiral in your thoughts loops to feeding your "identity of existance", which is an ego, wasting to energy keep it alive?

if you do then drop it. why wasting life force?
if you dont then stay in silence and learn.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Hendrik,

Your experience will be most enjoyable if you free your mind from expectations.

There is nothing so good as the wind and the sun for diving the foolishness out of one.



Certainly Wind and Sun are great.
But it has to be the REAL TIME wind and sun which one AWARE of Now.

not the type according to one's thoughts and keep looping right?

I certain expect that REAL TIME wind and sun.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
I think I know the answer.
.
.
Ready!??!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
Da Doo Run, Run, Run, Da Doo Run, Run!


Your answer is too late and obsolete when you read this sentence.

[kj]

Originally posted by Hendrik
...
some win hundred of race and have only to lost one. and it becomes a total loser.
Some lost hundred of race and have only to win one. And it become a total Winner.
Some dont want to win because Winning does mean much anymore.
...
real freedom is at any time and any place.
which instant is a race? None.
There is only ---- be there before everyone.
...

Perfectly captured, Hendrik. Well done.

Regards,
- kj

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
Do you aware of you are chasing and spiral in your thoughts loops to feeding your "identity of existance", which is an ego, wasting to energy keep it alive? Are you AWARE you have not answered the questions.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Certainly Wind and Sun are great.
But it has to be the REAL TIME wind and sun which one AWARE of Now.

not the type according to one's thoughts and keep looping right?

I certain expect that REAL TIME wind and sun.

What are you thinking about as you brush your teeth?

"one's thoughts"
"keep looping"
"Hendrik's 4 modes"

Buddhists reminds us, when you brush your teeth, just brush your teeth. Be mindful. Be aware of who you are and what you're saying just now.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Without Awareness what works?

Nice dodge.:rolleyes:

The question was
Will awareness sustain a wrestler's takedown without the 'ten thousands of hands'?

If you have all the answers (and you sound like you do), then answer it directly. Otherwise it is obvious you lack the awareness to recognize the question.

[Hendrik]

Nice dodge.:rolleyes: ---------

Without Awareness what works?
It is a Truth Some wont accept.



The question was
Will awareness sustain a wrestler's takedown without the 'ten thousands of hands'? -------

Does Mas Oyama needs ten thousands of hands?
Does Osense needs ten thousands of hands?
Does WXZ needs ten thousands of hands?
Does Leong Jan needs ten thousands of hands?
or just a strike transcent from AWARENESS?


Does one who decide to walk away from a wrestle due to Aware of the possibility to be taken down needs Thousands of hands?





If you have all the answers (and you sound like you do), then answer it directly. Otherwise it is obvious you lack the awareness to recognize the question. ---------

How can one answer for Oyama, Osense, WXZ, Leong Jan.... down to a new born baby or that person decide to walk away, and the list goes on?


Is it the one with Awareness that ask the question or is it a reaction from the thinker who is not satisfied on what other have said because it is not the answer one wants?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat


Buddhists reminds us, when you brush your teeth, just bruth your teeth. Be mindful. Be aware of who you are and what you're saying just now.

This reminds , that reminds....
You always love to be clone of some other people.

But you cant be someone else.
it is a fact isnt it?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
This reminds , that reminds....
You always love to be clone of some other people.

But you cant be someone else.
it is a fact isnt it?

Pay attention to yourself, for you are the first to discover your mistakes.;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Pay attention to yourself, for you are the first to discover your mistakes.;)

What a great advise which will cause the snake chase its own tail. The thinker fighting the thinker. create two person in one's mind. one face of the coin vesus the other face of the coin. hahahaha

But, it doesnt work in the realm of the silence watcher. It just watch how foolish is all these tricks are.

Watch in Silence and one shall "see" behind all those mind tricks bear dull emptiness and sorrow.

[AmanuJRY]

Hendrik
Without Awareness what works?
It is a Truth Some wont accept.

maybe some accept that awareness is not all there is to it. maybe some do not.




Hendrik
Does Mas Oyama needs ten thousands of hands?
Does Osense needs ten thousands of hands?
Does WXZ needs ten thousands of hands?
Does Leong Jan needs ten thousands of hands?
or just a strike transcent from AWARENESS?

Does one who decide to walk away from a wrestle due to Aware of the possibility to be taken down needs Thousands of hands?

Yes.;)




Hendrik
How can one answer for Oyama, Osense, WXZ, Leong Jan.... down to a new born baby or that person decide to walk away, and the list goes on?

Is it the one with Awareness that ask the question or is it a reaction from the thinker who is not satisfied on what other have said because it is not the answer one wants?

It could not be 'the thinker who is not satisfied on what other have said because it is not the answer one wants' because there has been no answer given.

Is it the one with awareness that recognizes your circular logic?
Is it the one with awareness that realizes you have no answers, just questions?
Is it the one with awareness that notices how you assume you know what others want or think?

I understand awareness, and I understand no-thing-ness, but there are two sides to the coin; cognition (the thinker) and no-thing. You are the manifestation of no-thing-ness , so I am the other side of your coin, the thinker. I have no other desire for a specific answer other than to see that you (Hendrik) can provide one.

[Hendrik]

maybe some accept that awareness is not all there is to it. maybe some do not.-------

Didnt Phenix post in the begining of post?

Awareness without Action goes no where.
Action without Awareness is a mess.







I understand awareness, and I understand no-thing-ness, but there are two sides to the coin; cognition (the thinker) and no-thing. ---------

Understand is a great word in the realm of thinker, but it is a Word of "Sin" in the realm of Awareness.

When one goes beyond the realm of Thinker then one "knows" not understand.






You are the manifestation of no-thing-ness , so I am the other side of your coin, the thinker. -------

Non Dual is not a coin with two faces
Living in a Duality world,
The thinker is just thoughts taking another thought as "I"
The habitual thoughts manifest lots of things......



To be able to Aware is not very high state at all. It just beyond the Thinker but still has layers and layers to penetrate before meeting the NON-Dual. To be more precise, Aware is just level one if six level is the level meeting the non dual. And one can experiment this in meditation.



'SLT needs Awareness to be the root.
But, it is not a Totally Relax and Let go type of Deal.

Why? Because it has to train the Attention (some translate it as spirit which can lead one to go now where. ) and the Yee or Intention. Thus the training should not be done in Deep relaxation state. These all Intention and Attention...etc have mind/body method of training. Not just speak of those old nice term which promise future salvation which never comes.

Why is this type of training important? Because without be able to handle Aware and handle or settle those :Thoughts or Thinker, attention, and intention..in the realm of mind.. habitual stuffs always over write the action.

Not to mention when the emotional...etc or physical habit energy kicks in..... How can one be precised, effective, elegant? it is hopeless without the capability of handling oneself. one has to Aware and cut through all those automatic overwrite., by default,. and ofcorse it is a step by step training and attainment process. Not a step function where Zap and everything solve. Satori and everything is done. Nah, not those.

Saying all these ofcorse it is still an intellectuarized description. The training is not theoritical stuffs." ---- Abstracted from the Diary of a MAD man.





I have no other desire for a specific answer other than to see that you (Hendrik) can provide one. ---------

What Hendrik says might only be true for him at that time.
Observe and you shall see for yourself. Walk you shall get there yourself.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY


Is it the one with awareness that recognizes your circular logic?
Is it the one with awareness that realizes you have no answers, just questions?
Is it the one with awareness that notices how you assume you know what others want or think?


Many search for answers as we look for a hat Hendrik wears on his head.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat

--------
Originally posted by AmanuJRY


Is it the one with awareness that recognizes your circular logic?
Is it the one with awareness that realizes you have no answers, just questions?
Is it the one with awareness that notices how you assume you know what others want or think?
-------------

Many search for answers as we look for a hat Hendrik wears on his head.


Your Thinker sure love to identify this and that and continous on to do habitual thinking..... what a sensation to keep spiral and think:D

It keeps one to continous to live isnt it?
When that stop, then there is no more Rhat.

[AmanuJRY]

Understand is a great word in the realm of thinker, but it is a Word of "Sin" in the realm of Awareness.... When one goes beyond the realm of Thinker then one "knows" not understand.

Since you argue semantics then I will say, I know awareness and I know no-thing (and I know I have opened the door to jokes with that statement).

You need to understand (be a sinner) what people mean, not twist their words to you will.



Saying all these ofcorse it is still an intellectuarized description. The training is not theoritical stuffs."

Exactly my point. As soon as you start trying to 'itellectuarize' it on a forum such as this you are obligated to go the distance with it, even if it means being a sinner and thinking.

Is the lesson lost once you conceptualize it?

[canglong]

originally posted by Justin
Exactly my point. As soon as you start trying to 'itellectuarize' it on a forum such as this you are obligated to go the distance with it, even if it means being a sinner and thinking. aaah Justin I see you have met hendrik the man of many questions and no answers.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Since you argue semantics then I will say, I know awareness and I know no-thing (and I know I have opened the door to jokes with that statement).

You need to understand (be a sinner) what people mean, not twist their words to you will.


It is not about an arguement.
It is not about a Semantics.
It is not about Sinner.
It is not about twisting their words to you will.
It is just present what one "sees"



"I will say, I know awareness and I know no-thing " ------------


is it one "sees" while watching? or is it one "understand" while thinking and figuring out? two different things


1, one doesnt have to repeat the word others "know". One can say " see" "meet with".... etc. The silence watcher "sees" right?


2, Is it a "no-thing"? or is it "Thus -ness"? Is there an objective and subjective or it is non dual?



Understand map of NYC is not the same with living in NYC, the language use, the attitude, the... Ask the Newyorkers they will tell you.

Why argue with a Mad man if one is not Mad?

(abstracted from the diary of a mad man)

[Hendrik]

As soon as you start trying to 'itellectuarize' it on a forum such as this you are obligated to go the distance with it, even if it means being a sinner and thinking. -------


No fix rule, right?


Is the lesson lost once you conceptualize it? -----

Depend of if one "see" the moon or one understand the finger pointing at the moon.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
aaah Justin I see you have met hendrik the man of many questions and no answers.



No answer is natural.
False answer is human.


Go there

http://www.mysteryspot.com/


and see or experience for yourself if your answer based on Space, Center of Gravity, three points one lines... work there.

Test if the "five ways and six gates, influece the UNIVERSE"?
in Santa Cruz.

If it doesnt work, then all answer is false answer right?

[duende]

Once again...

Hendrick get's Biu Jong'd in the head...

That's what happens when you don't know your own five lines and 6 gates.


The mystery spot is where Hendrick goes to catch some zzzzzz's (while he does his extended SNT) so that no one will wake him up.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by duende
Once again...

The mystery spot is where Hendrick goes to catch some zzzzzz's (while he does his extended SNT) so that no one will wake him up.





Will one rather trust the AWARENESS which work at any "space" include while one is sleeping, or one is in one's dream, including sleeping in that Mysthery spot of santa cruz.

IE: Phone rings, alarm clock rings while one is a sleep, one will know.

Or, formulars which is claim to be paradigm shift, most original ...original spirit ..... Unverse....etc but doesnt work in Santa Cruz, california while awake?


If hendrik falls a sleep in the Mystery spot with his SLT then he must be still happy. Because the Awareness always work ----> in Santa Cruz or in the dream land.

[taltos]

Has anyone here ever been to the "Mystery Spot"?

Because I have, and there is nothing to it. It is all tricks on the eye due to depth perception, horizon, and tilt.

http://www.sandlotscience.com/MysterySpots/MysterySpots.htm

So I am wondering what (if any) relevance an optical illusion has to the discussion at hand.

-Levi

[canglong]

Taltos,
The majority of hendrik's post are about his illusion. "where there are questions there are no answers." As you suggest the mystery spot is no answer.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
I have no other desire for a specific answer other than to see that you (Hendrik) can provide one. ---------

What Hendrik says might only be true for him at that time.
Observe and you shall see for yourself. Walk you shall get there yourself.

Hendrik,

Not only do you catch a miscalculation in time, but it could also be the very thing you need to prove a point. You know what needs to be done, so do it. Don't get philosophical. Go step by step and speak ENGLISH, no more HendLISH please!

Hendrik's 4 modes?
1)_____
2)_____
3)_____
4)_____

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos


So I am wondering what (if any) relevance an optical illusion has to the discussion at hand.

-Levi


It will be a great story for a new hong kong martial art movie :

Making the movie in Santa Cruz,
The Qing Evil Army uses just an Optical Illusion to destroy the well train Shao Lin paradigm shift army troop.

So, The Qing proves, paradigm shifted Shao Lin kung fu train for years and years is not par with just Optical Illusion. It doesnt work there.


Those poor shao lin just cant certain which lines is which lines and which distance and space is which and thier electronics compass and formulars work .... goes wild.

Until Ng Mui comes for the rescue using her AWARENESS with Blindfold Chi Sau and the art of listerning not rely on those lines and lines and space formulars....



http://savvytraveler.publicradio.org/show/features/2000/20000415/spot.shtml

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
As soon as you start trying to 'itellectuarize' it on a forum such as this you are obligated to go the distance with it, even if it means being a sinner and thinking. -------


No fix rule, right?


Is the lesson lost once you conceptualize it? -----

Depend of if one "see" the moon or one understand the finger pointing at the moon.


Hendrik,

"No fix rule"
"the moon"
"the finger"

There is no time to sneak around the moon. In an effort to avoid suspicion, you should go step by step (like a math problem) and you arrive at the answer.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Hendrik,

"No fix rule"
"the moon"
"the finger"

There is no time to sneak around the moon. In an effort to avoid suspicion, you should go step by step (like a math problem) and you arrive at the answer.



Are you a Robot?

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
paradigm shifted Shao Lin kung fu train for years and years is not par with just Optical Illusion. It doesnt work there.

Actually, anything having to do with REALITY does in fact work there.


Originally posted by Hendrik
Those poor shao lin just cant certain which lines is which lines and which distance and space is which and thier electronics compass and formulars work .... goes wild.

Uhm, no. Again, if I'm in the "mystery spot" or on a merry-go-round or in a fun house, my space is still my space. And I've never heard of a WC fighter who needed "thier electronics compass" in order to fight. Is that a new technique?


Originally posted by Hendrik
Until Ng Mui comes for the rescue using her AWARENESS with Blindfold Chi Sau and the art of listerning not rely on those lines and lines and space formulars....

It MAY be the case that you are mininterpreting the WC Formula (which is a collection of structural "rules") for some kind of collection of "lines and lines and space formulars." The WC Formula facilitates specific awareness, so I am at a loss as to what you are trying to imply.

May I ask two questions, please?

1. What exactly ARE the four modes you started hinting at a while ago and then walked away from?

2. Why are you so obsessed (at least that's how it APPEARS) with "formulars" (I assume you mean 'formulas') and "lines and lines?" You certainly DO seem to have a strange fascination with them.

Any legitimate attempt to answer those questions will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-Levi

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
Taltos,
The majority of hendrik's post are about his illusion. "where there are questions there are no answers."...


Does one do Wing Chun or Do Radio Shack?


http://www.radioshack.com/
You've got questions. We've got answers. ---- radio shack

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Are you a Robot?

It's not a Robot owe you, but what you owe yourself.;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos
Actually, anything having to do with REALITY does in fact work there.



Uhm, no. Again, if I'm in the "mystery spot" or on a merry-go-round or in a fun house, my space is still my space. And I've never heard of a WC fighter who needed "thier electronics compass" in order to fight. Is that a new technique? ......



Any legitimate attempt to answer those questions will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-Levi


You seem to take Movie stuffs for real? Movie is just an illusion isnt it?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
It's not a Robot owe you, but what you owe yourself.;)

Again, those are same old obsolete Robot mind tricks.

It doesnt work at all for human.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You seem to take Movie stuffs for real? Movie is just an illusion isnt it?

So, if I understand you correctly, then the entire point of this discussion was to lead us to a point where you could tell us about a movie you made up in your head? It wasn't to deflect the issue, or to back pedal, or to scamper around the real questions without actually making a statement of substance?

OK. If that's what you claim, then I guess that's that. But I wouldn't waste my money on a movie that absurd.

If I'm wrong, then perhaps you could clearly state exactly what your point is so I can better understand your point of view.

-Levi

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos


OK. If that's what you claim, then I guess that's that. But I wouldn't waste my money on a movie that absurd.

....perhaps you could clearly state exactly what your point is so I can better understand your point of view.





is it about movie?
what is the topic of this discussion?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
is it about movie?
what is the topic of this discussion?


Hendrik,

<NO>

"movie???"

<YES>

Be open about your answers and speak English.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
is it about movie?
what is the topic of this discussion?

What is "topic"? :D :D :D :D

What is "discussion"? :D :D

See, I can circle talk too.

I'll just keep asking until something happens.

Hendrick,

1. What exactly ARE the four modes you started hinting at a while ago and then walked away from?

2. Why are you so obsessed (at least that's how it APPEARS) with "formulars" (I assume you mean 'formulas') and "lines and lines?" You certainly DO seem to have a strange fascination with them.

Any legitimate attempt to answer those questions will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-Levi

[Hendrik]

1. What exactly ARE the four modes you started hinting at a while ago and then walked away from? -----


You must be wanting the information soooo bad.

However, there is no obligation that anyone has to give you all the information or answer your questions right?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
1. What exactly ARE the four modes you started hinting at a while ago and then walked away from? -----


You must be wanting the information soooo bad.

However, there is no obligation that anyone has to give you all the information or answer your questions right?

See, Hendrik can circle talk about his illusion again and again and again. "where there are questions there are no answers.":( :( :( :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
See, Hendrik can circle talk about his illusion again and again and again. "where there are questions there are no answers.":( :( :( :rolleyes:


Robot's can never be able to understand human language.
hahahaha


I will leave you to talk to the WALL here on.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Robot's can never be able to understand human language.
hahahaha


I will leave you to talk to the WALL here on.

hahaha,

"can never be able to understand"
"human language."

In your case, you should find a way to free yourself "hahaha" and focus on the constructive. "human language."

Pay more attention to yourself. Roll up your sleeves and get down to work. "answer the questions'



Originally posted by Levi
Hendrick,

1. What exactly ARE the four modes you started hinting at a while ago and then walked away from?

2. Why are you so obsessed (at least that's how it APPEARS) with "formulars" (I assume you mean 'formulas') and "lines and lines?" You certainly DO seem to have a strange fascination with them.

Any legitimate attempt to answer those questions will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-Levi

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You must be wanting the information soooo bad.

However, there is no obligation that anyone has to give you all the information or answer your questions right?

No. You offered, then fell through on the delivery. I'm just pointing that out.

But since you've established that you won't be answering THAT question, how about the other one:

2. Why are you so obsessed (at least that's how it APPEARS) with "formulars" (I assume you mean 'formulas') and "lines and lines?" You certainly DO seem to have a strange fascination with them.

Any legitimate attempt to answer those questions will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-Levi

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Your Thinker sure love to identify this and that and continous on to do habitual thinking..... what a sensation to keep spiral and think:D

It keeps one to continous to live isnt it?
When that stop, then there is no more Rhat.

I'm convinced one of the reasons we enjoy Wing Chun so much once we begin to spend time CHI SAU is that it encourage us to take life on its own terms and make the best of it.

Hello, Life out there!:)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos
No. You offered, then fell through on the delivery. I'm just pointing that out.



You love to Demand the world according to the rule you set isnt it?


Good luck.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
You love to Demand the world according to the rule you set isnt it?


Good luck.

Hendrik,

The point is that you have only two choices--It's either get in touch with it (Hendrik's 4 modes) by acknowledging and expressing it, or you can circle talk about your illusion again and again and again.:rolleyes: