Learning Taijiquan

[HackingYodel]

Would it be possible to lean Taijiquan from instructional tapes? The reason I ask is that I've always wanted to study Taijiquan but have limited access. There is a Shalin-do teacher close enough, but I'm not comfortable with him. Which would you suggest? DVDs, poor teacher, or neither? Thanks.

[Brad]

I would suggest dvd over Shaolin-Do... but you might be better off finding a legit teacher of something else(even Yoga or some other healthy activity). Another route to go would be to find a legit teacher who seems to know what he's doing further away and save up your money for the occasional private lesson or siminar while suplementing your practice with some kind of video. Sometimes if you really have your heart set on a certain style/method, you've got to do a bit of travelling :) Do you have a particular style in mind? BTW, a good place for vcds/dvds is http://www.plumpub.com

[HackingYodel]

Thank you Brad. At this time I do not have a paticular style in mind. To be honest, I don't even know what styles are out there. :o Is a particular style more focused on self-defense? I'm in a remote section of Kentucky making teachers rare to nonexistant. I'll have to do alot of travelling but, like you said, I'm realy drawn to Taijiquan. Thanks again for the feedback and the link.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by HackingYodel
Thank you Brad. At this time I do not have a paticular style in mind. To be honest, I don't even know what styles are out there. :o Is a particular style more focused on self-defense? I'm in a remote section of Kentucky making teachers rare to nonexistant. I'll have to do alot of travelling but, like you said, I'm realy drawn to Taijiquan. Thanks again for the feedback and the link.

Taijiquan is a wonderful art and a powerful fighting style (if you can find someone who knows how to teach it as such), but it will take you many years of study to learn to fight or defend yourself well with it.

I certainly don't want to discourage you, but I don't want you to go to a lot of trouble just to find out you're not getting what you want from it fast enough :)

I'm not sure what to suggest, given your limited access. I've been very, very lucky to have access to a couple of absolutely fantastic teachers for the last few years, so I've not been in your position :(

[scotty1]

You can't learn to fight with taijiquan from a book or a DVD, because an integral drill is pushing hands. The strategy depends so much on sensitivity and listening skills that you can't get without a partner.

Plus, in any style, if you want to know you can fight, you need to spar.

Caught between a rock and a hard place there mate.

[brody]

HackingYodel,

What is the name of the teacher close to you. Perhaps someone on the forum might know him or of him.

Scotty1 is right, an important aspect of Tai Chi is Push Hands. Push Hand is something you can't understand from a book or DVD. Push Hands is a drill that stresses sensitivity and finding and uprooting your opponents center and can only be learned with an actual opponent.

However, my Sifu (teacher) has always said that if you can't find a qualified Sifu close to you, Videos or DVDs are pretty good too. Try and find a video series that will show the entire form(s) and their applications. Don't be afraid to ask questions on forums (thats why they're here).

best of luck.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by brody
HackingYodel,
.

However, my Sifu (teacher) has always said that if you can't find a qualified Sifu close to you, Videos or DVDs are pretty good too. Try and find a video series that will show the entire form(s) and their applications. Don't be afraid to ask questions on forums (thats why they're here).

best of luck.


If you think that doing the form is 'doing' Tai Chi then fine, but in reality the form is something that helps develope tai chi.

What would be better is reading about a few of the principles, find a friend who is also interested and wont mind a few bruises and push hands.

If your looking for it, you will pick up 'tai chi skills' quite fast.

[jpaton]

I studied Shaolin Do a long time ago. Currently I live in Boston and Study under Vincent Chu (tai chi). I've also studied under Fong Ha (tai chi, yi chuan) of Berkley and Liang, Qiang-Ya (fu bagua) of Oakland, all of whom are very qualified instructors.

I've got to say that even though there are difference between what is taught in Shaolin Do and what I learned from these and other instructors there is also a lot of similarities as well.

If you are not comfortable with the instructor you should not take lessons from him. But if your not comfortable with him because of what you've read on this forum you should take another look. Go back with an open mind. There are some very good instructor in Shaolin Do with a lot to share.

I look at kinda like this. I'm not going to have only one girlfriend or job or martial art instructor my whole life. But if there's only one girl or job or instructor around that's where I'm going. There are of course caveats to this...

Hope this helped or at least made sense.

good luck

jonathan

[Shooter]

You can't learn to fight with taijiquan from a book or a DVD, because an integral drill is pushing hands. The strategy depends so much on sensitivity and listening skills that you can't get without a partner.

Plus, in any style, if you want to know you can fight, you need to spar

I disagree.

If a person practiced a few basic taiji chi-kung exercises and studied 5-steps, all they'd need is a heavy-bag for power and endurance drills. They'd have some decent taijiquan fighting method in 10 months.

[Liokault]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shooter
I disagree.

If a person practiced a few basic taiji chi-kung exercises and studied 5-steps, all they'd need is a heavy-bag for power and endurance drills. They'd have some decent taijiquan fighting method in 10 months. [/QUOTE

They may or may not have skills at the end of the 10 months, it may even be tai chi skill, but it wont be tai chi fighting skill.

[brody]

It sounds like HackingYodel might be better off learning Karate or Western Boxing. Tai Chi without the internal aspect and just martial application doesn't sound like Tai Chi to me. :confused:

[Shooter]

They may or may not have skills at the end of the 10 months, it may even be tai chi skill, but it wont be tai chi fighting skill

Again, I disagree. If a person trains nothing but tjq principles for 10 months, they'd have some basic tjq fightng method.

What I'm saying is, nothing but daily solo-training of a few tjq exercises and specially structured bag-drills will yeild good basic tjq fighting method after a period of about 10 months (read; no sparring or push-hands/2-person practice). Good enough to be tested against a novice MMA fighter of the same weight. :eek:

[HackingYodel]

Thanks everyone.

My younger brother had the Shaolin-do teacher a few years ago. The art, or is it style?, is fine I'm sure but in this case I think no for the teacher. I have friends/ brother that I could practice push hands with. With any luck a few of the local Karate students may be willing to spar as well. I'm in no hurry what so ever, so if it takes 10 months or 3 years to gain some self-defense skills with Taijiquan, no problem. For what little I know, nothing, I want the internal aspects most of all. Can anybody suggest a dvd, book or series that I could start with and supplement with quarterly visits to a great teacher? I'm do not mean to belittle Taijiquan by thinking I can watch a movie and master it. I just want to get the best start possible without a teacher near me. Thanks again.

[jpaton]

I would definitely look for a DVD of the 108 (also referred to as the 103, 105 and 124) form. The reasons are:

-most people teaching the 24 and other versions are doing the form for primarily for health or performance and that doesn't seem to be what your after.

-if you ever leave where ever you are in Kentucky the 108 is widely taught

-108 goes directly back to Yang Cheng fu and is often taught in a more traditional fashion.

One of my old teaches has a good DVD out. It has 2 different views playing at once, which makes it much easy to learn. He was also a student of Yang Sau Chung, Yang Cheng fu oldest son. The DVD does not have push hands on it. Here's a link: http://www.fongha.com/memorabilia.htm

Where are you in Kentucky? Have you looked at this site: http://www.kentuckytaichi.com/ they have several classes around Kentucky. If at all possible it's best to learn directly from a teacher.

Good luck

jonathan

[GLW]

Hate to disagree...108 is also commonly known as 85 Posture Yang Style - it is the routine as created by Yang Chengfu.

Unfortunately, even within people that really KNOW the routine, you have varying flavors and emphasis. For example, I have video of Gu Luxin, Yang Zhenduo, and Fu Zhongwen all doing it - and while the sequence is the same, the flavor varies...and ALL KNOW Yang style (Gu was also well respected for his Chen style).

Then you get how the routine has travelled outside of China. You have a LOT of variations and plain old BAD Taijiquan with no basics in Yang Style.

In fact, I can say that after a number of years of judging at competitions and seeing around 100 demos all over the US, the Yang Stylists have the broadest disparity in skill and basics (from REALLY BAD to Good) of any of the Taijiquan styles.

24 is NEVER really a bad starting point...it is just a bad ending point. It gets you started and will take about a year or 2 to make OK.... It IS a standard routine so if you go from one school to another, it is less likely that you have to unlearn or break old ways of doing things with it.

It is a BASIC routine and as such does set the foundation for use of legs, waist, shoulders, arms...but it does NOT lend itself readily to Applications....not surprising because most beginner or basic level routines - even in external styles - are very limited in the application department (notable exceptions might be things like Tan Tui - where the applications are actually quite rich).

Classical Yang style is the easiest routine I know to do badly...and one of the more difficult to do really well. The minutia goes on forever.

[jpaton]

For a book i would suggest any number of versions of the Tai Chi Classics. there are several translations out there. I've read at least four different version and gotten something from each of them. Two that i can remember are by Waysun Liao and Tsung Hwa Jou. The Classics are very short and generally stuck at the end of a book about the authors ideas on tai chi. I've read some books where the Classics seemed like the only part worth reading.

You've got to be kinda careful with tai chi books though. there are some very bad ones out there.

[HackingYodel]

Originally posted by jpaton


You've got to be kinda careful with tai chi books though. there are some very bad ones out there.

Yes, for some reason the hacks and fakes in Tai Chi seem to prey on people like me. Perhaps the mysticism or legends make it eaiser for some real loons to hawk "tai chi" material to the unknowing:confused: Anyhow, I'm thankful that this forum exist to filter information through people who know the truth.

[Kaitain(UK)]

The best book I have is 'The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle' - very good in it's discussion of mechanics and energies.

I would heartily recommend that you seek out an instructor - even if it means you just travel to see him once or twice a month. If you have the diligence to practice alone, then the value of that instruction will be high.

[scotty1]

Shooter - whether you're correct or not about what you say (and I'm not going to argue with you) the likelihood of finding that sort of knowledge on a video has got to be about 0.

[Tak]

Another good one - Body Mechanics of Tai Chi Chuan (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964408406/qid=1093525302/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-9552935-4072606?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Shooter]

...the likelihood of finding that sort of knowledge on a video has got to be about 0

Scott, why do you think that is?

The weird thing is that no one even blinked when I wrote;

"...nothing but daily solo-training of a few tjq exercises and specially structured bag-drills will yeild good basic tjq fighting method after a period of about 10 months (read; no sparring or push-hands/2-person practice). Good enough to be tested against a novice MMA fighter of the same weight"

[scotty1]

I didn't blink because I'm assuming you've done that before with someone. :)

I still think though that the first time they tried to apply their stuff against an opponent they'd find it hard.

Is there a video that shows those drills? Are you bringing out a DVD?;)

[Shooter]

I didn't blink because I'm assuming you've done that before with someone

hahaha...d@mnit

No DVD coming from me. I don't believe in video-training.

A good book or other relevent text and some vid-clips would be a great combination if the person was able to regularly correspond with someone who really understood the material.

The most important factor would be the person's dedication to daily practice. But after a couple of months, more layers are added to the solo regimen to flesh out the combative nature of the drills.

[scotty1]

A HA!

"Scott, why do you think that is?"

Because not many people know them?

So, how'd your guy do then? Against the MMA novice?

[Shooter]

2 of the best books:

-The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicles (Kuo Lien-Ying)

-The Tao Of Tai Chi Chuan - Way To Rejuvination (Jou Tsung Hwa)

[Shooter]

Scott, I don't think many people know how the ideas work on that basic level because they don't structure the training so that it remains congruent with the principles within the sportive context of ring-fighting.

Also, the lack of practical bag drills which address the particulars of taijiquan while developing power and endurance.

The first thing that has to be discarded is the, "I train to win", mindset. Ring-fighting is a means - it's just sparring. The process is lost if winning/losing is the main motivation or concern.

[SPJ]

Good posts.

All the Tai Ji'ers and the Chinese government cannot figure out how to transfer combat Tai Ji or any other Kung Fu into a sport or ring events.

If you do, they all like to hear from you.

They are still at the level of ever changing rules of Sand Da.



:cool:

[Shooter]

SPJ, it's hard to tell whether or not you're being sarcastic.

Anyway, I didn't figure this stuff out myself.

When I was shown how the theory of the 5 elements/steps applies to personal combat, I commented that a lot of those ideas are found in boxing and wrestling...except for the earth element, and my sifu was like, "Duh".

It's not a leap to structure the training of tjq's basic fighting method so that it can be explored and researched in a sportive format. That is something I did on my own based on the 5-steps. But the ideas are already contained in the theories.

When I showed another tjq teacher how I was doing that, he just nodded and said it was the way he was taught tjq when he was still living in China...his way of saying, "Duh".

[SPJ]

No. I was not being sarcastic at all.

The Chinese government is trying to rescue TCMA from the ruins of Cultural Revolution in 60's and early 70's.

There are research committee's set up across China. TCMA is incorporated into physical education from high school to colleges. However, the courses are composites of the old system. For example, the course on Tai Ji would be composite forms.

They also started to push Wushu into gym events.

San da was promoted recently in a big way.

They do have troubles in converting combative Kung Fu into ring or sports events.

If you do have very good ideas to do so, you may contact them.

Their polices on TCMA overall are still evolving. and nobody knows where this is heading really.

I am from Taiwan originally. So I do not have direct info'es from the Chinese.

In terms of training methods and theory, yes, you are right.

:)

[qiphlow]

i think if you can find a good teacher that's within a doable travelling distance, contact that person and arrange some visits as often as you can--stay for a week or so, train your ass off while you're with the teacher, then practice the crap out of what you've learned until next time. it's the slow path, but MUCH better than trying to learn from a book or video exclusively. our organization has many people who show up once a year or so to get corrections and learn new stuff and they all do well.

[SPJ]

Maybe Kung Fu was not meant to be a ring event or sports.

I shouldn't have placed the quest to game-fy the Tai Ji on anyone's shoulder. It is not fair.

Back to the original post;

DVD and books are good sources of info. However, a good teacher and a note book are also important especially in the beginning.

If you did it wrong and formed bad habits, it will be very difficult to correct them later.

Posture or Zhuang is everything or the root.

There are strict requirements for the body posture (Shen Fa).

I have to practice each posture for 25 min before doing anything else.

Tai Ji has 2 parts: stillness and movement.

I have to learn how to be in stillness/posture first.

For example, a lot of teachers like to use the single whip (Dan Bien) for standing (posture) practice.

These are some of the requirements.

Your neck has to be loose and Jin is on Baihui on the top of your head. (Shi Lin Din Jin)

Your wrist is hanging up and your elbow is dropped. (Shuen Wan Zhue Zhou).

Your other wrist is sinking.

Your knees are tugged in so you have a round curve or ball like. So you have the fexibility to move your knees in different directions to shift weight. (Yuan Dang).

Your chest is tugged a little. Your back is arched a little. (Han Shuon Ba Bei).

On and on.

As you may see, you really need a teacher to show and correct you. A long time to practice and take a lot of personal notes.

DVD may help you to familiarize the moves and sequences. DVD may help to train your eyes to watch or study the structure of the moves. You may freeze the move at any instance or rewind etc.

If you want to learn for health and meditation, you may practice standing posture for 2-3 min or 5 min.

If you want to learn it for combat, you have to stand 45 min to 1 h, and you have to do everything right every time.





:cool: