Which Northern art/arts does CLF derive from?

[Fu-Pow]

Any ideas?

It is roughly connected to Northern "Shaolin" but that could be any of a myriad of Northern styles.

Tai Tzu Chang Quan perhaps?

[Starchaser107]

ask Sow Choy

[Royal Dragon]

I have never heard Tai Tzu being connected to CLF before. I think it's something totally different.

[Ben Gash]

I wrote this in another thread:
The "northern" elements of CLF seem related to Changquan, Tong Bei, Pigua and even Chen Taijiquan.
:cool:

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
I wrote this in another thread:
The "northern" elements of CLF seem related to Changquan, Tong Bei, Pigua and even Chen Taijiquan.
:cool:

Where are you getting this info from?

And Chen Taiji is supposedly connected to Tai Tzu Quan so.......?

[Sow Choy]

Not sure exactly what Northern Style influenced CLF,

But I was told at that time, most of the shaolin style were just called Siu Lum Kuen (Shaolin Fist) or Fut Ga Kuen (Buddhist Fist)... So maybe it was a specific style, more so of techniques... Even some of the traditionalists at Shaolin do not hold to one style persay as much as they hold to different techniques...

Maybe thats how the current Northern Shaolin came to be... its a mixture of styles but it all seems to work because it is the same root.

In my personal experience, i think Pek Kwar Kuen is very much like CLF, so perhaps that could be an influence... Or I also hear some of our CLF brothers speak of a Lohan Kuen, is that similar to the Northern Styles?

At Shaolin temple in the North, I was lucky to see some of the traditional styles kept by the family of the head master, and it really was similar to CLF, in its extension and flavor and even some similar techniques...

But CLF is definitely most influenced, in my opinion by Hung Ga...

But is Hung Ga really from the South?

;)

Maybe one of our Chan Family brothers can add to this, would like to hear what they have to say?

And maybe some of our Buk Sing brothers too since they probably have been exposed to more Northern than most of us...

My sihing was a long time student of Chan Kwok Wai, and he shares some NSL forms with me, and I see a connection their tooo... But its quite possible all Shaolin has that same connection... Just the different rising of schools is what separted us...

Just some thoughts...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
[B]Not sure exactly what Northern Style influenced CLF,

But I was told at that time, most of the shaolin style were just called Siu Lum Kuen (Shaolin Fist) or Fut Ga Kuen (Buddhist Fist)...




Which are all pretty generic names.


So maybe it was a specific style, more so of techniques... Even some of the traditionalists at Shaolin do not hold to one style persay as much as they hold to different techniques...

That makes sense.




Maybe thats how the current Northern Shaolin came to be... its a mixture of styles but it all seems to work because it is the same root.

So you are making the distinction between "styles" and "systems."




In my personal experience, i think Pek Kwar Kuen is very much like CLF, so perhaps that could be an influence...

I've never seen pure Pek Kwar/Pi Qua but if you've ever played the video game "Dead or Alive" the Pi Qua chick on there looks a lot like CLF. You will recognize a lot of the moves.


Or I also hear some of our CLF brothers speak of a Lohan Kuen, is that similar to the Northern Styles?

Lohan, Fut and Siu Lum pretty much all mean the same thing ie Buddha. So again we're back to generic names. I find it odd that no predecessor to CLF has been named except in generic way. I mean it is not as though people weren't documenting this stuff. I know there are ancient books out there that directly list and categorize styles.




At Shaolin temple in the North, I was lucky to see some of the traditional styles kept by the family of the head master, and it really was similar to CLF, in its extension and flavor and even some similar techniques...

That's why I was wondering about Tai Tzu Quan because that seems to be the predecessor of a lot of Northern "Shaolin" and long fist styles (including Chen Taiji, which I also pratice.)


But CLF is definitely most influenced, in my opinion by Hung Ga...

I can see how you would think that. There are definite simliarities between CLF and Hung Gar. However, I also see similarities between Hung Gar and SPM, Bak Hok, Lung Ying etc. And the way they generate power seems to be more like the other Southern styles. The way CLF generates power seems to be more like the Northern styles.



But is Hung Ga really from the South?

;)

That's a whole other debate. And then you get into the whole issue of Hung (as in Red Fist) vs. Hung Muhn vs. Hung Gar....ad nauseum.

We can talk about some of this stuff when you come up.

Peace. ;) :D :cool:

[Ben Gash]

Where are you getting this info from?
Observation and experience :p

[darkholme]

Fu-Pow
According to General Qi Jiguang’s book the Ji Xiao Xin Shu there was no "style" shaolin fist during or before the time of the Ming Dynasty only the art of shaolin staff. The staff techniques had so bad that the general brought soldiers in to the temple to retrain the monks in practical techniques. The empty hand fighting at the temple was just the standard fighting arts found elsewhere in northern China i.e.: Tai Tzu Quan, Eagle claw. The change of name to Shaolin Quan seems to have only appeared during the Qing Dynasty for political reasons.

Ben gash
The founder of Tai Chi based his practice on General Qi Jiguang’s books.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow
According to General Qi Jiguang’s book the Ji Xiao Xin Shu there was no "style" shaolin fist during or before the time of the Ming Dynasty only the art of shaolin staff. The staff techniques had so bad that the general brought soldiers in to the temple to retrain the monks in practical techniques. The empty hand fighting at the temple was just the standard fighting arts found elsewhere in northern China i.e.: Tai Tzu Quan, Eagle claw. The change of name to Shaolin Quan seems to have only appeared during the Qing Dynasty for political reasons.

Ben gash
The founder of Tai Chi based his practice on General Qi Jiguang’s books.


Do you know if there is a English translation of Qi Jiguangs book? I'd really be interested to read it because I have heard that he also documented many of the prevalent martial arts of his time.

As to the Shaolin temple that is kind of what I'm getting at. If Tai Tzu was practiced at the Shaolin Temple, and Tai Tzu is the forefather of Chen Taiji and Choy Lay Fut is also derived from "Northern Shaolin."

Well... you could definitely see a common thread there.

[mickey]

Hi Fu-Pow,

I don't know is he is still around, but I think Kenneth Cohen may have made an English translation of the text many years ago. I don't think he widely circulated it. It may have been more of an exercise for him.

Good Luck,

mickey