proof on dim mak ???

[blooming lotus]

Was doing some chart study last night / this morning and came across a very interesting piece of information. This particular dim mak practictioner ( William M. Bogey) is also a master surgeon. He was, back in 1983 ( or possibley 38?) performing an operation to remove a tumour on a carteroid artery, which is a highly prized strike point in many martial arts and particularly in dim mak, as are others using the same nerve/ artery, organ etc philosophy, and he made a direct correlation ( now popular and well used medical knowledge) between the sensitivity of the carteroid sinus and it's effect on blood pressure and resultant conciousness.

you can find more information about his findings and the connections he made between the obvious and the not so. For example to strike this point on one side over the other produces different results, the right being more effective than the left, though modern western medicine acknowledgaes but has no explanation. I f you you consider yin and yang as standard principals, as they do in TCM, it becomes obvious that because this is a yin strike point, to apply that to the yang side ( the right in this case) it balances out for the perfect compliment.

Try doing a google on the Peripheral Vascular Surgery Society Spring 1998 meeting and abstracts or by going directly to www.pvss.org/Spring98/spring1998.htm

The more I study both dim mak and western medical aspects ( however informal for the moment) and its' theories the less esoteric it ( dim mak ) becomes. Go figure it's based in physiological foundation.


Ps: 7* : appologies for jacking your topic but I seemed to've lost your thread :o :D :p :)

[The Willow Sword]

:o

[Toby]

BL, it's not there in either of his paper abstracts from the page you linked.

[blooming lotus]

you may have to read through for the correlation or do another search.

[Gangsterfist]

Some interesting links on dim mak and chi:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/atemi_waza.html

http://www.xtrememind.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=390

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-12022.html


http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/papers.htm

My conclusion is you cannot prove or disprove the effects or training of dim mak by written material on the internet. IMHO, this is something you will have to experience first hand, and to find what you seek you must also first define what exactly is dim mak?

[blooming lotus]

dim mak translated is the death touch, but what its principals are based on is particular points in the body where various vulnerable cavities containing various individual nerve, organ, tissue or connection fibre etc lay and how when accessed in different ways via different stimuli, they effect the bodies, motoring, blood flow and related cellular organic effect, water production ( and of course the human body being over 2/3 water, this is crucial to almost everything we do ), electrical and nerve function etc etc. as well as direct impact to tendons, joints and so forth.

There has been some associated mystism with dim mak practitioning because of the delayed death strike/s that have had such ignorant reviews. If you consider that something that might consitute a delayed death strike might involve a strike to a vital organ etc, that will take three days to accumulate enough blood to cease or sufficiently impair function of that organ or what have you, again it de-mystifies the whole thing and brings it back to some good hard core physiology.



;) cheers

[Tak]

I don't know what all the discussion is about. The G-spot is obvious and conclusive proof that dim mak is real. :p


Edit: And, the translation of dim mak given by the online chinese dictionaries at mandarintools.com is something like "vital points"

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Tak
I don't know what all the discussion is about. The G-spot is obvious and conclusive proof that dim mak is real. :p


Where can one find instruction in this particular Dim Mak training? My wife insists I spend as much resources as necessary to master such a usefull art... ::grin::

[Tak]

Just wait until you can hit that one consistently in sparring - you'll be the most popular fighter at your school...

[FngSaiYuk]

Heheh, just need to hit it consistantly in practice at home - has any training ever had greater rewards? ::grin::

[Gangsterfist]

None of the Dim Mak I know has delayed death in it. That is a myth and was created due to the lack of technology in medicine many years ago.

If a guy got hit in the upper throat area and one of his cathodes got busted, more than likely it would later get infected and they would probably die from the infection days later. Things like this probably led to the belief of delayed death attacks. Due to the lack of medical technology at the time these people died from infections or damaged organs days later because no one knew how to fix it.

Dim Mak is actually a broad term it can mean lots of things, its even used in TC Medicine for healing purposes. I also think an internet forum is not really the proper place to discuss dim mak. Not to mention anyone who publishes a book on dim mak should be taken lightly. I mean who wants to widely spread how to easily kill people?

[gfx]

I'm so sick of the saying dim mak is the "death touch"

In mandarin it's "dian mai" 点脉 or point/press the nerve.

The thing is that people who used to practice this have very very strong fingers. Fingers that can go through the skin/muscles easily.

If you have that kind of conditioning, you can pretty much strike anywhere and cause tremendous pain. It'd be like sticking a steel rod in someone.

People who inmitate these people are just poking each other.

It goes without saying that this skill is very difficult to practice, and is totally pointless in modern society.

You want a death touch? Get a gun, you can really reach out and touch someone with that.

[IronFist]

I got dim maked once. This guy in my MMA class came up to me and slapped me on the shoulder and goes "You're going to die some time in the future."

:eek:

[blooming lotus]

1st, if you press on the right nerve in the right direction with the right impact, it'll cause your death anyway.

2nd, if you don't understand how a hit to a stronger ogan where the strike causes blood or what have you to pool without major effect for days well you just dont
and for those after a link or contact to study, give me several hrs and I'll get back to you ;)

[SPJ]

Agreed with GF.

Pressure points are widely used in all schools of Wushu.

There are numbness points (Ma Xue). They produce pains, too.

There are fatal points (Si Xue).

There are solution/resuscitation points (Jie Xue).

They may be the same points with different results when pressured differerntly.

Qin Na use pressure points to seize or immobilize the opponent.

Let you in a not so secret.

They are using stun devices nowaday to hit points.

Human body is very fragile. A light blow to the solar plexus, to your carotid artery, windpine, all the joints, liver, spleen, or the heart.

We are fatally wounded or goners.

These areas are for the law, the medicine, and the military. And not for civilians, nor combat sports fans.

Off limits. or Classified. or Need to know only.

The consequences or responsibility are too much to bear.


:)

[SPJ]

Ren Zhuong Xue: in the middle between your nose and the upper lip. May be used to resuscitate or control seizure.

He Gu Xue: between the thumb and the index finger. May be used to resuscitate and increase immune response.

Da Tzue Xue: between your shoulder blades. May be used to resuscitate and increase immune response.



:)

[Gangsterfist]

One of my brothers is a doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine. He always tells me the same massage techniques he uses to fix injuries also cause them when reversed.

He also told me delayed death from striking a few pressure points is pretty much a myth. If that were possible it would take decades of training to properly employ and understand.

[blooming lotus]

what a co-incidence that dim mak and pressure point dicovery in TCM etc was developed eons ago:eek:

[blooming lotus]

thought about this for a minute and I think you deserve a better answer. Learning the points ( especially vitals and delayed death being they stand out so much), memorising the charts are the easiest part of dim mak/ pressure point manipulation. When it gets complicated is multi - strike set ups etc ( more than 6 ) to achieve a singular "hit". For now I have many many combos but in a little more than a year probably fewer than a dozen multi ( up to 3 and under ) strikes for one "hit".

For the person who asked for a link, here it is again :-

Dr ( grand master )Pier Tsui - Po

Books and courses :-
1. The ghost hands of dim - mak

certified course Aust $ 995

2. The Two Dragons of Dim Mak

book only Aust $ 79.95

3. The Centrelineline Theory of Dim Mak

video only Aust $160.00

4. The Art and Science of Deadly Pressure Point Fighting

Manual Aust $ 595.00

Classes available 6 days a week at Golden Lion Academy's 3 fully equipped centres.

order by phone, fax, mail, internat or email to :

Dim Mak World
94 High Street
Berwick 3806.

Ph: Australia 0011 ( 03 for melbounre) 9796 1066
fax aust , Melb, (03) 97962388
Email: pier@dimmakworld.com
or log on to www.dimmakworld.com
and
www.goldenlion.com.au

cheers

[scotty1]

Jesus, no wonder you started stripping! :D ;)

[Gangsterfist]

Again, seems like a money making scheme. Dim Mak (if it was real, delayed death) would be so hard to fully apply on a trained, resisiting opponet.

[Meat Shake]

"dim mak translated is the death touch"
I always thought dim mak translated as "cavity strike/press"
:o

"if you press on the right nerve in the right direction with the right impact, it'll cause your death anyway."

Yes. Example - Man has gun. Mans wife just died. "Hey man, f*ck you and your dead wife!" Bang! You get shot. You pressed the right nerve in the right way with just the right impact, and it caused your death.
:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Again, seems like a money making scheme. Dim Mak (if it was real, delayed death) would be so hard to fully apply on a trained, resisiting opponet.

but in reality:

first on the gun thing: alot of styles ( like ninjutsu for eg: ) has disarming techs, and personally I wouldn't be without at least a few of them myself. In todays' world and on real life defence planning anyway.


As for the mak against a trained opponent : You are wrong. I've sparred and trained with well skilled ( and even in certain aspects skilled far above mine ) shifus and practitioners of various arts all throughout China, and I've never not seen my opening to land a point. Unfortunately today pressure point knowledge and training is limited. It's also a personal gem of mine and forte' and is more than practicle ( however severe the situation would need to be to use it) for real situational defence.

For example, I saw the womens' Tae Kwon Do olypmic event last night and this morning ( and besides being in serious disain that the final round loosing challenger executed a spin for a serious spinning back kick , lost her focus , didn't even attempt to plant it, then was left open copping some basic boxing combos loosing the fight :rolleyes: ) , during the fight, ( and remember that we're talking the competing worlds' best here) , the 2 of them were open with points throughout the whole fight. If you are unaware of what and where the points are, you have no strategy to defend them. ?Unfortunately, for the great part, when it comes to crunch, that's what I depend on.


Not to self prop on this issue, but it definately an art worth investigating. Even if only to contemplate why it's invalid or uneccessary.

[Gangsterfist]

This reminds me of some personal experiences I have had training Martial arts. Thinking you have something and knowing you have something are two completely different things.

I sparred a person who knew some white crane once, looked like his whole mid section was wide open and begging to be hit, wrong. Thats what they want you to do. Just because you saw an opening does not mean you had a strike.

If you want to live in a dim mak fantasy land then go right ahead. I know what I have been taught and its pretty realistic and to the point. None of this strike several places at once or in succession to cause delayed death. Sounds like a bad anime **cough*fist of the north star*cough**.

Another example is a book I own, called Pressure Point Fighting, by Rick clark.

In his book almost all of his photos doing pressure point attacks invole some kind of joint lock. Something I am also familiar with. I took 3 years of RyuKyu Kempo which has tons of joint locks in it and its a very nasty way to hurt someone and effective if you can pull it off. Chin na and other joint lock techs take a high level of skill when trying to apply on a trained resisting opponet. Chin na is something that will come natural with time and training and its a system of control that takes high level of skill.

Given your history of training I would highly doubt you have obtained these skills, unless you are some kind of prodigy or something. Never the less, I will leave you in dim mak wonderland.

Farewell, may your dim mak skills exceed every master in china,

GF

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
This reminds me of..........




Just because you saw an opening does not mean you had a strike.

In his book almost all of his photos doing pressure point attacks invole some kind of joint lock. GF

A. the wonderland is denying it.

B. My strikes are not neccesssarily lock / hold interwoven

C. No. we always break it down slow mo, and I'm tellingyou, if I had intention the strike would've landed

D. You call yourself a supporter??!! :rolleyes: ;) :cool:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

For example, I saw the womens' Tae Kwon Do olypmic event last night and this morning......../// ( and remember that we're talking the competing worlds' best here) , the 2 of them were open with points throughout the whole fight.
Oh, Eyebrows, you surpass yourself daily! Are you seriously trying to cite Olympic TKD as an example of fighting?!

:D :D :D

[blooming lotus]

yes I am . for ring standard. and it less than figures I should've not expected a contribution nor valid comment from a post with your name on it. Thanks Troll "boy " ( and that there is generosity "Ms. won't and too precious and special" to post a pic )

[Serpent]

You're an idiot. Of course the TKD players were open to point attacks. They are also open to a solid punch in the face because they always "fight" with their arms straight down at their sides.

As for the competing worlds best, they are only the best at Olympic TKD. Even they will tell you that they wouldn't stand a chance in anything resembling a real fight because they train within a very specific rule set.

Seriously, bl, try to find something valid to back up your points. And as for the picture thing, will you get over it? Why don't you go ahead and consider me a girl if it makes you feel good. Maybe I'm stirring up those latent lesbian tendencies, eh?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Serpent
You're an idiot. Of course the TKD players were open to point attacks. They are also open to a solid punch in the face because they always "fight" with their arms straight down at their sides.

As for the competing worlds best, they are only the best at Olympic TKD. Even they will tell you that they wouldn't stand a chance in anything resembling a real fight because they train within a very specific rule set.

Seriously, bl, try to find something valid to back up your points. And as for the picture thing, will you get over it? Why don't you go ahead and consider me a girl if it makes you feel good. Maybe I'm stirring up those latent lesbian tendencies, eh?

Some credit for taste ha?? Not that you have any reason to believe that, but even if I did decide I wanted to sleep with a chick - are the insults really neccessary?? :rolleyes: I did give, for other perspective sake ( Ie :- real life use ) personal accounts I've experienced against skilled shifus and maers throughout China. Being that few here are dim mak practioners themself here , for the great part most comments will be arm chair critic comments and while those of us experienced in the art are happy to answer questions etc, when people get silly, a person ( with better things to do) isn't really going to waste too much time on it right?

By the way , Tkd was one of my first arts myself and I'm well aware of what they do and don't leave them self open to - hence branching out to so many styles since. As for the rules and boundaries they need to operate within, just goes to show that maybe ufc/ mma has a little more value in the street than some'd like to admit.

Why do you always change the subject . Can we get back to dim mak do you think?? ( Please see thread title for relevance :rolleyes: )

BL

[cerebus]

Well, it was inevitable. I got bored at work & took a look at one of bl's AMAZINGLY ignorant posts. I had taken pity on her poor inept little self and was kind enough to put her on my "ignore" list for awhile but somehow that just seemed to make her even less intelligent (just kidding, I know that's not even possible without getting into the negative numbers).

So now she's a big Dim Mak expert who could beat Olympic TKD champions if she wanted! :rolleyes: Sure bl, sure. You da' man! I'm sure you could kill someone with just fingertip pressure...... in your dreams.

bl (which I've I've learned really stands for "botched lobotomy") has never really trained with any instructors in ANYTHING. She read a book and looked at a couple of so-called "Dim Mak" charts and now she thinks she's "Count Dante, the Deadliest Man Alive"!

Also, if you'll notice, every time she uses the terms "real" or "reality" it means she's getting ready to give a lecture about something she has absolutely NO experience in.

So, hey there bl I'M BAAAAAACK!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
When it gets complicated is multi - strike set ups etc ( more than 6 ) to achieve a singular "hit". For now I have many many combos but in a little more than a year probably fewer than a dozen multi ( up to 3 and under ) strikes for one "hit".


Do you REALLY think you will be able to hit so many points without retaliation before you complete them? Chances are, you won't. A friend of mine used to train kenpo and he used to always talk about their multi hit combos and how he'd tear someone apart with them. I kept telling him that it would be really hard to hit a person so many times without retaliation and he blew my comments off. One day I told him to try it on me... He couldn't do it. And those weren't strikes to obscure pressure points or anything. Heck, even if you COULD do it without retaliation, is would take decades (as has been stated) to be able to hit multiple small areas with accuract in rapid succession.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

As for the mak against a trained opponent : You are wrong. I've sparred and trained with well skilled ( and even in certain aspects skilled far above mine ) shifus and practitioners of various arts all throughout China, and I've never not seen my opening to land a point. Unfortunately today pressure point knowledge and training is limited. It's also a personal gem of mine and forte' and is more than practicle ( however severe the situation would need to be to use it) for real situational defence.

when I spar with people, I see openings for various things all the time. Big deal. Did you LAND the pressure point strikes? Did you even try them? There's a huge difference between seeing and doing.

For example, I saw the womens' Tae Kwon Do olypmic event last night and this morning ( and besides being in serious disain that the final round loosing challenger executed a spin for a serious spinning back kick , lost her focus , didn't even attempt to plant it, then was left open copping some basic boxing combos loosing the fight :rolleyes: ) , during the fight, ( and remember that we're talking the competing worlds' best here) , the 2 of them were open with points throughout the whole fight. If you are unaware of what and where the points are, you have no strategy to defend them. ?Unfortunately, for the great part, when it comes to crunch, that's what I depend on.

Once again, there is a difference between seeing and doing. I can guarantee you that any of those women woulda kicked your arse. And if you don't think so, I guess we'll see you in the olympics in 2008. That's something else you will be able to add to your list of "accomplishments"

[cerebus]

SevenStar ol' pal, you should know by now that she's a compulsive liar. As such, we really should just pity her. Not only has she NOT ever sparred with anyone of any degree of skill, she's obviously never even sparred before.

And of course she would never even TRY to go for any of her deadly "Dim Mak" points if she ever DID attempt to spar. Afterall, she might accidentally hit one and kill her sparring partner.

Poor bl. If you ever need some therapy, let me know (really... I mean it). I recently received my PhD. in Psychology, so you can call me "Doctor".

[blooming lotus]

fuc* you !!!!!! and that said I'd still cop a clip to save your sorry as*in retort . break it down how you like. I'd kill you if I thought it was justified......... thank god I'm a pacifist ch'an buddhist... now kiss my as* or troll with all your uneducated self's got ....Mr. "I think I know..........."


Kinda tired and not prepared to humour you today..... I'd kill you.make no mistake........... reason is edcuation on shyte you're not even in your supremacy prepare to consider, and what it comes down to is ching someone bail me out before I become human and disrespect the guy.

Yah..... I'm that confident.... just hope you don't meet one of my own in your travelles Mr. " have nothing more to learn "


Fock naevie ego!!!!!!!!!! duibuqi... just not today in the mood....:rolleyes:

seriously

BL

today I'd hit you......

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
but in reality:

first on the gun thing: alot of styles ( like ninjutsu for eg: ) has disarming techs, and personally I wouldn't be without at least a few of them myself. In todays' world and on real life defence planning anyway.

How well will disarming techniques work from four meters away? Disarming someone with a gun only works when they don't know how to use it, and as Musashi said, you must understand the nature of the weapon to use it corectly. If I were using a gun on someone they would be shot before they ever reached a range in which they could even think of a disarm.

On dim mak, a question. In a street fight, if someone is attempting to strike with dim mak, and I recognize it as such, am I leagally allowed to kill that person in defence? They are or may be, after all, attempting to kill me, are they not?

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, heh! Guess I got a little too close to the truth there, ha bl? Y'know, believe it or not, I don't harbor any hatred for you, I actually feel sorry for you.

It seems though that your homicidal tendencies are showing through your regular passive-agressive attacks. It's too bad you aren't really a Chan Buddhist, you might actually be able to develop a little self control.

Anytime ya' need to talk, just lemme know. I won't even charge you, I'll just do it as a charity case.

Peace.

[blooming lotus]

feeling ya babes, 'cause i feel that way about alot of folk here. But more than likely , as I've done myself, you probably haven't paid full credit where due. Mei guan xi ( doesn't matter). I've learn't so many styles and forms over the last 16 yrs , so correct me if you feel it's appropriate or judge and counsel me likewise. knowledge is knowledge and I"ll take it how it comes. Also standing by my comments

Bl

Ps: just met this Russian budo dude: exchanging notes at 8 pm tonight for a sweat sesh. let you know what we discover ;)

cheers and jius to all

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
fuc* you !!!!!! and that said I'd still cop a clip to save your sorry as*in retort . break it down how you like. I'd kill you if I thought it was justified......... thank god I'm a pacifist ch'an buddhist... now kiss my as* or troll with all your uneducated self's got ....Mr. "I think I know..........."


Kinda tired and not prepared to humour you today..... I'd kill you.make no mistake........... reason is edcuation on shyte you're not even in your supremacy prepare to consider, and what it comes down to is ching someone bail me out before I become human and disrespect the guy.

Yah..... I'm that confident.... just hope you don't meet one of my own in your travelles Mr. " have nothing more to learn "


Fock naevie ego!!!!!!!!!! duibuqi... just not today in the mood....:rolleyes:

seriously

BL

today I'd hit you......

what was that about being buddhist?

[SPJ]

Karma and emotion.

Buddha said.

Da Lai La Ma said.

:)

[blooming lotus]

yes it is actually. Sounds ludicrous but get past the apparent I
MO and you see what I'm saying are reasons why you shouldn't use these techs physically ( emphatically resounding reasons for not want to use the skills at hand) and no excuse is okay I suppose. I guess let myself get a lil more pasionate than my resulting behaviour pesents accepatabley. If that makes sense. so once again proving to be human.

Ps: did you know in shodokan karate they have no circular ( round styled ) strikes and make amends with dynamic feet focus??

[SPJ]

Pressure points and actual fight.

Pressure points are off limits to all ring events or combat sports. You will be recognized, disqualified and even charged with attemptted assault or murder. Your intent is to--.

Pressure points are widely used in Qin Na technique.

Almost all schools of Qin Na are coupled with Dim Mak.

Not to kyll nor produce unconsciousness.

But to produce numbness and pain if needs to.




:)

[blooming lotus]

dong . but what about standard kidney strikes. it's a widespread interstyled focal point and has pressure pointed origin. How do you monitor that? there are also some vicious gb's within ring strike guidline boundaries. :confused:

when does pressure point striking become non - tc edly valid to aim for in general ring rule ??

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SPJ
Pressure points and actual fight.

Pressure points are off limits to all ring events or combat sports. You will be recognized, disqualified and even charged with attemptted assault or murder. Your intent is to--.

Pressure points are widely used in Qin Na technique.

Almost all schools of Qin Na are coupled with Dim Mak.

Not to kyll nor produce unconsciousness.

But to produce numbness and pain if needs to.

:)

Not true. Pressure point striking is allowed in all MMA venues.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
dong . but what about standard kidney strikes. it's a widespread interstyled focal point and has pressure pointed origin. How do you monitor that? there are also some vicious gb's within ring strike guidline boundaries. :confused:

when does pressure point striking become non - tc edly valid to aim for in general ring rule ??

they are not outlawed. liver punches, knees to the bladder, etc. are things people train to do. (since you mentioned kidneys)

In general, there are only a few things mma doesn't allow

-kicks to a downed opponent (However, Pride DOES allow it)
-groin strikes
-hair pulling
-biting
-eye gouging
-small joint locks, i.e. fingers and wrists
-strikes to the base of the neck

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

Ps: did you know in shodokan karate they have no circular ( round styled ) strikes and make amends with dynamic feet focus??

where did you get that from? just off the top of my head:

the inside block is circular and used as an arm break in heian hidan

the hammerfist is an arcing strike - both variations

the shuto and knifehand are circular

the cross elbow is circular

the backfist is arcing

shotokan has a hook punch

I haven't bothered mentioning kicks...

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar-

I used to train okinawan kempo, I don't know how different it is compared to the kenpo you are talking about, but here is what I know. Yes there are pressure point strikes. Every person is different and the pressure points will never be in the exact same spot on a person, only in the same area. A lot of them used joint locks to over/under expose certain areas or cause strain to make another area weaker. Which takes a high level of skill to apply on a fully resisting opponet. Don't know how relevant that is but thought I would share.

BL-

Seems to me you are a jack of all traits and master of none. One thing my sifu always told me is that you must stick with your one art, otherwise you lose sight of what you know. There are execptions like bruce lee, but he is an exception. Most people cannot bridge the gaps between arts like bruce did. Most just get confused and it makes their training counter-productive from what they used to train or will be training in the future.

Earlier you talked about studying wing chun, now you are back to dim mak. I don't doubt you want to be good at this, but it seems you are trying to run before you can crawl.

[AmanuJRY]

Musashi teaches us that when we master our one art we become a master of all things.

And what is that one art that we must master?
Kung fu?
or, ourselves?

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Musashi teaches us that when we master our one art we become a master of all things.

And what is that one art that we must master?
Kung fu?
or, ourselves?

Musashi would also be an exception hehehe. Considering he never had a master and came up with his own sword fighting techniques on his own.

Not everyone can do that.

[SevenStar]

"To attain the way of strategy as a warrior, you must study FULLY other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the way of the warrior...."


I believe musashi is referring to martial arts, not yourself.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar
where did you get that from?

Same place she gets everything else, bro. Straight outta her ass.

[blooming lotus]

if you call sparring/ trading notes with a20 yr old Russian ma champ on several fronts pulling it " otta my a'hole" well.. there's redefining lingo

Any way I guess some of his hands are circular and he has this awesome hooking high cresent side kick I'm about to integrate. Be a lil generous sometimes Serpent... you never know what you're about to learn.

Ps: on a side note , this ex- national ma-champ Honey I've been chatting to recently is also studying international politics and various language , plugging on to stand for foreign affairs minister national division. I think we all here would benifit from my relationship with him. Give him a chance and learn something while you're here ha.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. So I guess while you were "sparring" (is THAT what they're calling it these days? :D ) with some 20 y.o. Russian guy, you were probably "putting it IN your a'hole"! LOL! :D :D

[blooming lotus]

no .. but I wouldn't not :p :rolleyes:

This Russian combat dude is skilled in ring and life okay..and I'll be scre*ed if I've EVER met a more onto it 20 yr old. He knows his art and has pulled many a trophy / ribbon and even he was impressed and "suddendly became my student" when I learnt him on dim mak, points and basic philosophy ( find the soft spot between bone / or tendon connective vulnerablity/ or nerve site accumulation and strike it !!! how hard???!!!???.....)" , which is the mak in a nut shell.

He was also curious ( which I find intersting ) on take down and ninjutsu execution strategy, ( severly lacking in karate , samuried root , and no surprise, it was developed to defend against them ) . Listen up , because bad as my typing skill is, you may just gain an insight or 3. :P

BL


Don't dismiss it 'til you've tried it and know you have a strategy to defend it ;)

[cerebus]

You "learnt him on dim mak" ? :confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
if you call sparring/ trading notes with a20 yr old Russian ma champ on several fronts pulling it " otta my a'hole" well.. there's redefining lingo

Any way I guess some of his hands are circular and he has this awesome hooking high cresent side kick I'm about to integrate. Be a lil generous sometimes Serpent... you never know what you're about to learn.

Ps: on a side note , this ex- national ma-champ Honey I've been chatting to recently is also studying international politics and various language , plugging on to stand for foreign affairs minister national division. I think we all here would benifit from my relationship with him. Give him a chance and learn something while you're here ha.

1. Isn't it a weird coincidence that yohu seem to meet all of these "top notch" and "champion" MAs? What's hist name? What organization is he champ in? Don't say you don't know - since he's "a honey you've been chatting to", you can ask him.

2. since he's big on language, bring him to this forum and let him see your posts on use of the apostrophe. Maybe he can teach you a thing or two

3. I thought you said you had no interest in men right now...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no .. but I wouldn't not :p :rolleyes:

This Russian combat dude is skilled in ring and life okay..and I'll be scre*ed if I've EVER met a more onto it 20 yr old. He knows his art and has pulled many a trophy / ribbon and even he was impressed and "suddendly became my student" when I learnt him on dim mak, points and basic philosophy ( find the soft spot between bone / or tendon connective vulnerablity/ or nerve site accumulation and strike it !!! how hard???!!!???.....)" , which is the mak in a nut shell.

He was also curious ( which I find intersting ) on take down and ninjutsu execution strategy, ( severly lacking in karate , samuried root , and no surprise, it was developed to defend against them ) . Listen up , because bad as my typing skill is, you may just gain an insight or 3. :P

BL


Don't dismiss it 'til you've tried it and know you have a strategy to defend it ;)

karate has a samurai root? wtf? Do you research anything that you say? Did he tell you that?

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: did you know in shodokan karate they have no circular ( round styled ) strikes and make amends with dynamic feet focus?? You based this blanket statement on:
Originally posted by blooming lotus
if you call sparring/ trading notes with a20 yr old Russian ma champ on several fronts ...So because while you were "sparring/trading notes" he didn't use a circular strike therefore shodokan karate doesn't? Maybe he was using another of his "several fronts" at the time?

My impression of him "suddendly becoming your student" is that he was probably trying to pick you up. Unlucky for him you're a lesbian.

I can't wait until you start sprinkling Russian phrases into your posts like you do Chinese ones :(. Just to remind us how worldly and brilliant you are ...

Let us know when you're engaged.

[Serpent]

Cerebus


Heh, heh. So I guess while you were "sparring" (is THAT what they're calling it these days? ) with some 20 y.o. Russian guy, you were probably "putting it IN your a'hole"! LOL!

blooming lotus


no .. but I wouldn't not

This Russian combat dude is skilled in ring and life okay

:D

Priceless.

I'm sure you managed to impress this 20 year old "combat dude" because he's only 20 and probably has even less of a clue than you do. I'm not sure that's actually possible, but there's always someone, right?

[blooming lotus]

right . I'm 0 chinese yrs old, been studying health and fitness for more 20 of ythose and I'm still clueless???!!!! ( insert a rolleyes here)... ride your ego and call it what you will... you know the Russians kick as* in gymnastics and combat and what the mother fo ??/ because he supports me and learns from me despite his belts he's socking also?? you guys wanna consult yourself on ego and further I'd like to se you challenge either of us in reals:rolleyes:

for mofo...some do it the easy way, and some know nothing else but the haard waaay:rolleyes:

scr*w u ... still not in the mood........

dammned egotists you meet on a shytty day!! he's won national titles and I've and I've done what I have, but you're still better hey. we'll wait for you :eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

dim wit

[blooming lotus]

right . I'm 30 chinese yrs old, and 've been studying health and fitness for more 20 of those and I'm still clueless???!!!! ( insert a rolleyes here)... ride your ego and call it what you will... you know the Russians kick as* in gymnastics and combat and what the mother fo ??/ because he supports me and learns from me despite his belts he's socking also?? you guys wanna consult yourself on ego and further I'd like to se you challenge either of us in reals:rolleyes:

for mofo...some do it the easy way, and some know nothing else but the haard waaay:rolleyes:

scr*w u ... still not in the mood........

dammned egotists you meet on a shytty day!! he's won national titles and I've done what I have, but you're still better hey.!!??? Well, we'll just wait for youha eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

dim wits

how good do you think you are ?? Is there no limit??

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'm 0 chinese yrs old, been studying health and fitness for more 20 of ythose and I'm still clueless???!!!!
Uhh, yes. :confused: Is this a trick question? You've repeatedly shown that.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... you know the Russians kick as* in gymnastics and combat and what the mother fo ??/ because he supports me and learns from me despite his belts he's socking also??So therefore he's a master gymnast too? I don't necessarily think he's "socking", but he probably wants you to, hence his interest in you. I'd heard they have lower standards in Russia.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
he's won national titles ...I believe 7* asked for evidence/names of titles i.e. proof.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
and I've and I've done what I have, What have you done? Been an ex-Olympian? Been a $10,000 a week model? Beaten up 450lb Samoan boxers? Sung for Savage Garden? Become a nun? Completed any MA system?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... but you're still better ...I never claimed that. I'm sure most people here are better than you, though. But as long as you keep making outlandish claims, people will call your bull****.

[blooming lotus]

you can make counter claims on no proof on shyte you have no intimate detail on, or stfu and learn a thing or 2.. yah...he tasted good and now what ?? you want me to subject him to your bs aswell...kiss my grits.... doubting Thomases for all but when it counts... Like I have to gain by educating you / sharing my experiences.......... some folk :rolleyes:

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you can make counter claims on no proof on shyte you have no intimate detail on, or stfu and learn a thing or 2.. yah...he tasted good and now what ?? you want me to subject him to your bs aswell...kiss my grits.... doubting Thomases for all but when it counts... Like I have to gain by educating you / sharing my experiences.......... some folk :rolleyes: Ever read the Boy Who Cried Wolf? You've shown you're full of **** so many times that no-one except noobs who don't know any better believe a single thing you say. Even noobs soon learn. What did you want us to learn from this thread? That shotokan karate has no circular techniques? That it originated from the samurai? That the Russian national champ of unspecified tournaments in multiple unspecified styles happened to pick you up?

As for "... he tasted good ..." - too much information (insert vomiting emoticon).

[blooming lotus]

well you asked so don't be surprised when I answer with equal "enthusiasm".

shown my self to be fos...no I show myself to share what I know to date despite nasty wa*ks jumping all over it. Don't give 2 focks if you believe a word , I've told it like it happens and you all can live from your home base and say " it aint real ...it aint real"" don't mean jack..... I'm cas...but I see shyte you couldn't in your wildest dreams imagine....the folks ready to learn ''ll glean what they need and the rest of the useless comments ( like your trolling ) gets relegated to the trash pile......at least contribute with fact over opinion...who really cares what you think...you're holed up in nowheres' ville in ma land and I"m running mainstream central.......arm chair critics :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

BL
He was also curious ( which I find intersting ) on take down and ninjutsu execution strategy, ( severly lacking in karate , samuried root , and no surprise, it was developed to defend against them ) . Listen up , because bad as my typing skill is, you may just gain an insight or 3.

Ninjutsu goes back about 900 years, peaking in the Tokugawa Period of about 350 years ago. Shotokan karate goes back to Gichin Funakoshi who was born in 1868 and was a schoolteacher, not a samurai. In fact, the karate he learned didn't have its roots in Samurai culture, quite the opposite. As an Okinawan he learned Okinawa karate which has its roots in peasants and farmers defending against the samurai.

Okinawan karate traditionally has a number of takedowns for such a purpose, and Funakoshi took a lot of them out of Shotokan for various reasons, one of which was probably connected to getting an official govt license in 1922 (quite some time after the samurai class had ceased to be anything but high-ranking army bullies).

Ninjutsu execution strategy was even in the heyday of ninjutsu, relatively rare, as the ninja's job was usually finding information. If you compare the number of fihting arts the ninja had to the number of disguise, distraction and running away arts they had you would understand this.

The chance of BL at her level and attention span having learned real execution techniques is about as high as her being able to hit any real resisting opponent with a 6 strike dim-mak combo.

If you're going to answer this BL, please make it a really ridiculous answer so someone quotes it and I can read it. Like I need to ask! :rolleyes:

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by SevenStar
"To attain the way of strategy as a warrior, you must study FULLY other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the way of the warrior...."


I believe musashi is referring to martial arts, not yourself.


Yeah, sorry, I added the part about yourself as my own 'add lib'. I know Musashi was referring to MA.

[Shaolinlueb]

man, changed into another bashing BL thread :rolleyes:

wasnt there a guy in chicago that "prooved" dim mak :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
right . I'm 0 chinese yrs old, been studying health and fitness for more 20 of ythose and I'm still clueless???!!!!

judging by your posts on the taining forum, you haven't been studying it too hard...

( insert a rolleyes here)... ride your ego and call it what you will... you know the Russians kick as* in gymnastics and combat and what the mother fo ??/ because he supports me and learns from me despite his belts he's socking also?? you guys wanna consult yourself on ego and further I'd like to se you challenge either of us in reals:rolleyes:

once again, what is his name? what org is he in?

for mofo...some do it the easy way, and some know nothing else but the haard waaay:rolleyes:

scr*w u ... still not in the mood.......

dammned egotists you meet on a shytty day!! he's won national titles and I've and I've done what I have, but you're still better hey. we'll wait for you :eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

dim wit

please, think of the buddhism...

[Buby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
thought about this for a minute and I think you deserve a better answer. Learning the points ( especially vitals and delayed death being they stand out so much), memorising the charts are the easiest part of dim mak/ pressure point manipulation. When it gets complicated is multi - strike set ups etc ( more than 6 ) to achieve a singular "hit". For now I have many many combos but in a little more than a year probably fewer than a dozen multi ( up to 3 and under ) strikes for one "hit".



For combos, look at your forms. Look at where you are hitting and the combos that follow (use them as a guide). Take a pressure point chart and look for the different meridians you're effecting. It will usually follow some type of destruction cycle.

Why would you want 6 hits, when 3 is such a lucky #.;) If your ging is good, it should only take 3 hits (Pressure points or no pressure points). In traditional gong sau, you bridge up and are allowed 3 moves, may the one with the strongest ging win!lolol

Take care,
Buby

[Meat Shake]

BL - Drop a name of this "former champion" and everyone will leave you alone. If he truly is a "former champion", his name will already be out and there will be no occurences due to your dropping his name.
...
http://www.webcrawler.com

^Im sure you can find an ex champion from russia there if you dont already have one in mind. :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

webcrawler?? Dayum that brings back memories. In like 1995, when I first started using the net (other than using aol and compuserve back in the day), the two major search engines were yahoo and webcrawler. hotwired and lycos were just getting started and google and the other more recent engines weren't even thought of.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
webcrawler?? Dayum that brings back memories. In like 1995, when I first started using the net (other than using aol and compuserve back in the day), the two major search engines were yahoo and webcrawler. hotwired and lycos were just getting started and google and the other more recent engines weren't even thought of.

Yeah, I remember trying to find **** using the Prodigy search engine back in the day... man, it's amazing how far the net has come, sometimes.

[FngSaiYuk]

Since we're reminiscing - FIDOnet... That was my first contact with the vast amount of wealth in files and databases all over the world.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Since we're reminiscing - FIDOnet... That was my first contact with the vast amount of porn.

Fixed your spelling.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by FatherDog

That was my first contact with the vast amount of porn.

Fixed your spelling.

Also reminds me of my uncle asking me... sooo... how does one get on the interporn, I mean interweb?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Buby
For combos, look at your forms. Look at where you are hitting and the combos that follow (use them as a guide). Take a pressure point chart and look for the different meridians you're effecting. It will usually follow some type of destruction cycle.

Why would you want 6 hits, when 3 is such a lucky #.;) If your ging is good, it should only take 3 hits (Pressure points or no pressure points). In traditional gong sau, you bridge up and are allowed 3 moves, may the one with the strongest ging win!lolol

Take care,
Buby

it's not that simple . certain strikes have cumulative damage pending strike order. Like when you do dymanic stretching and callesthenic based programmes where sequence is where the difference lays. you may choose a 6 hit combo, because through various strikes you may activate and negate certain effects producing a more accurate / tailored outcome.

I'm glad you all decided to continue this conversation because I was watching a series of science discovery docos this afternoon and found some information that could support dimmak. This particular one was about the lastest in Medical discoveries and they ( American Med research teams) finally found a way to measure and recognise light produced by human ( and other living ) cells. Because light is energy , if you hadn't made the connection already, the fact of energy is that it vibrates at a certain frequency. When you apply this to dim mak and the concept of qi / electrical strikes , I feel it gives the concept more scientific credence.

I watched another one directly before concerned with geneticly modifying dna structures of certain animals and when they experimented on various animals and life form they discovered that movement effieciency ( range and speed for example ) was dictated by frequency. The frequency they studied is based on principals of measuring waves from movement and is directly relative to angle and temperature. Hence the speed suits new age swimmers are wearing in high level competition and the fact that the basic principals from this "new " information are now as a rule applied world wide to the aeronautics industry. The reason I mention it here is to support the correlation of frequency / temperature and movement. Like I've been saying, our world and everything in it ( including ourselves ) is made up of a series of vibrations that are therefore available to study and manipulate.

On the Russian : I did a search directly before I read your post / suggestion, but my engine found nothing on any Russian in martial competition. For the record though, even if I did find the link, I don't do " name dropping" and I still wouldn't subject him to half the lunacy this place offers. Our time is precious and unfortunately for those wanting the information, I just wouldn't do it to him.

We did alot of discussion about sports in general, diet and training techs for martial and other sports. Did you know in Russia they frequently drink vodka at a degree ( %) of 40 in very similar amounts I do and for the exact same reason??interesting no??
( please see the periodic table by Mandeleev for correlating evidence and reason )


For the record, yes I know ninjutsu techs for execution ( however few ) but what I mean usually when I say "execution" is execution of techniques. So we are agreeing that shodokan at least has removed takedowns right?? We spoke about this in relation to fighting a boxer on the street and how his/ her floating feet tech would effect the outcome, consider shodakan lacks forementioned and also has dynamic feet. I think there's a point to consider in there if you spend a minute on it. what styles etc etc.....

cheers folks and thx for the plutonomy Lueb ;)

[cerebus]

When you say "shodokan" I take it you mean the Japanese Karate system which is spelled "Shotokan". And no, it actually DOES have sweeps, throws AND takedowns. Don't take my word for it though (I only received a black belt in the art back in '96), check the book "Karate-Do Kyohan, The Master Text" by the founder of the art, Funakoshi Gichin.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by cerebus
When you say "shodokan" I take it you mean the Japanese Karate system which is spelled "Shotokan".

oh...lol...another lawsuit forthcomming :rolleyes: :p

hmmm....it does ha?? What do you say then about Mats' comment on Funoshokis removal of it for what ever reason?? Apparently Shotokan has changed and evolved to include various systems still under the umbrella of Shotokan , is the obvious conclusion.. do you think??

[cerebus]

No. Shotokan doesn't have "other systems" under the "umbrella" of Shotokan. Shotokan is a very specific system of Karate, not an "umbrella" organization.

Mat has probably not trained in Shotokan. It's a misconception that some people have, that Shotokan doesn't have throws or takedowns.

As for your sarcasm & "rolleyes" over the spelling of Shotokan, I was just trying to clarify. The term "Shodokan" usually refers to a certain branch of Aikido. There is also a "Shodokan Goju Ryu" style of Karate (which has very many takedowns). So you can keep your (not very "Buddhist") sarcasm out of your comments.

You are welcome.

[Buby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
it's not that simple . certain strikes have cumulative damage pending strike order. Like when you do dymanic stretching and callesthenic based programmes where sequence is where the difference lays. you may choose a 6 hit combo, because through various strikes you may activate and negate certain effects producing a more accurate / tailored outcome.



Actually it is! Well, at least in the system I train in. Our forms are there to guide us. We break down the form in it's sequental order, we learn each tech and then Sifu shows how they effect the body when strung along in a combo(the combos are strung together just as they are found in the form). We pull the combo straight out the form to get basic understanding and to help us get our feet wet so to say.

"certain strikes have cumulative damage pending strike order." -

Again, the order can be found in our forms. Its similar to the wrist grab, reverse punch found in many Kung fu and Karate schools....you just dont grab the wrist to hold a person from going anywhere...you grab the wrist to activate the heart points along the wrist (which makes the heart weak (simple terms)) and punch straight to the heart/chest.

Also, how many people have you tried Dim mak on? Any results?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

[cerebus]

What are you talking about? She doesn't actually DO martial arts, she just lectures people about the subject. Just like she's not really a Buddhist (or model, soldier, English teacher, Dim Mak master, psychological therapist, etc, etc, etc), but she wants everyone to think she is.

[Buby]

Was your last post intented for me?

Buby

[SPJ]

Agreed with Buby.

Qin Na or pressure point manipulation is coupled in all schools of Wushu.

These are not evident for people to see.

Good job.

:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
it's not that simple . certain strikes have cumulative damage pending strike order. Like when you do dymanic stretching and callesthenic based programmes where sequence is where the difference lays. you may choose a 6 hit combo, because through various strikes you may activate and negate certain effects producing a more accurate / tailored outcome.

sounds like you are training with video games and RPGs...

I'm glad you all decided to continue this conversation because I was watching a series of science discovery docos this afternoon and found some information that could support dimmak. This particular one was about the lastest in Medical discoveries and they ( American Med research teams) finally found a way to measure and recognise light produced by human ( and other living ) cells. Because light is energy , if you hadn't made the connection already, the fact of energy is that it vibrates at a certain frequency. When you apply this to dim mak and the concept of qi / electrical strikes , I feel it gives the concept more scientific credence.

get a study done on it. publish the results.

Like I've been saying, our world and everything in it ( including ourselves ) is made up of a series of vibrations that are therefore available to study and manipulate.

that's fine, but you're NOT gonna hit 6 consecutive times in the precise order you need to in order to make me pass out unless I let you do it... that's what we're trying to get you to see. People have been studying dim mak for decades can't do some of the things that you claim.

On the Russian : I did a search directly before I read your post / suggestion, but my engine found nothing on any Russian in martial competition. For the record though, even if I did find the link, I don't do " name dropping" and I still wouldn't subject him to half the lunacy this place offers. Our time is precious and unfortunately for those wanting the information, I just wouldn't do it to him.

PM me the name - I won't give it to anyone. Also, post the organization here and search on that. "Russian martial competition" is too general. What's the organization name?


For the record, yes I know ninjutsu techs for execution ( however few ) but what I mean usually when I say "execution" is execution of techniques.

Was this in response to me? I wasn't making astatement about that... I said that those techniques were developed to counter samurai (according to your previous post) and you stated that karate had a samurai root.... that is false.

So we are agreeing that shodokan at least has removed takedowns right??

No. Throws are typically not taught per se, in favor of striking, but the grappling and locking are still in the kata, such as the example I gave earlier - the arm break in heian nidan. Here's an article that actually has a pic of funakoshi performing such techniques:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/swift-tidbits2.html

We spoke about this in relation to fighting a boxer on the street and how his/ her floating feet tech would effect the outcome, consider shodakan lacks forementioned and also has dynamic feet. I think there's a point to consider in there if you spend a minute on it. what styles etc etc.....

No.... According to your original post, the "Afforementioned" was that shotokan lacked circular strikes.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by SevenStar
People have been studying dim mak for decades can't do some of the things that you claim.

Y'know, out of the whole thread, it seems that it really boils down to this main point- to be effective in the manner that dim mak is typically described, it would take SIGNIFICANT focused training, including live practice, which nowadays is illegal.

I'm not a super trained kungfu martial artist or anything, but I'm a pretty **** good natural street fighter, and there is NOWAY someone who hasn't actually trained in the pressure point combinations and used it against real fighting opponents, would be able to stick me with the necessary combos to cause the described effects. Well, unless I'm unlucky or something...

Other than that, sure it's possible to train in pressure point combos with spectacular results... but it would logically appear rather difficult in this day and age - likely VERY illegal... and it'd take many thousands of hours of such training, more time than most people have the luxury of spending on this particular art.

[Buby]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk

I'm not a super trained kungfu martial artist or anything, but I'm a pretty **** good natural street fighter, and there is NOWAY someone who hasn't actually trained in the pressure point combinations and used it against real fighting opponents, would be able to stick me with the necessary combos to cause the described effects. Well, unless I'm unlucky or something...



The funny thing is that you take a chance everytime you swing or kick to be struck with a Dim Mak tech. Not every tech or combo is an instant kill. At times a pressure point is struck to make a certain part of the body go limp(setup points), so you can enter safely and destroy your opponent. Ex. I soy quiled(hammered) my boys forearm (on a certain point), his knees buckled and before he knew it I was right on top of him). In my experience (which is nothing grand), some points are more sensitive than other and take less to activate. Some you have to hit right on, in the right angle and then you have some points that you can tap lightly in any given direction and you immediately feel it.

Take care,
Buby

[SevenStar]

Are you accurate and skilled enough that you can do such things at will and in rapid succession? let's merge your example with BL's. you hit your boy and his knees went weak - could you have then hit the four or five other points before he was able to retaliate at all? And would that even apply? the first point you mentioned may not correspond to the appropriate place in the destructive cycle to do what BL was talking about... If it's not, then you have to think of another set of points to hit which would correspond to the point you hit... Not all points have the same reaction on the same people, which is another factor - WAY too complicated, IMO.

[FngSaiYuk]

Buby,

See, THAT (some points being more sensitive than others) is a LOT more reasonable than delayed death, or multi point penetrating combos to bring about death ... well... that would be really difficult in a real fight, esp. ones where there's no rule other than defend yourself and get outta the situation asap.

Now I also understand that pressure points give you an advantage in fights, and that they can be used very effectively... it's just that it's really difficult to swallow the concept of the magical death touch or death touch combo.

Again, the only thing I'm focusing on here is the mystic death touch/combo. I'm pretty sure most fighters and martial artists understand that part of the training to be 'good' involved knowledge of 'sensitive' points in the body and incoporating the targetting of these points in their style's techniques.

[blooming lotus]

I think that what you're neglecting to include in your assesments is the fact that usually you can access several points within one strike. At least we're talking sincerely now rather than having pointless to and fro.

7 * - not a chance dude (on the pm)

this is my thing and I'll stand alone - despute it with your information and I'll share mine. Either way.

Why do you all think I have time to do all these wonderful things for you anyway. You know I'm busy and consider half of your requests silly or trite. Sorry boys. You get what I manage.

Cerebus : If shotokan is not a system with variants we're discussing , Why do Mat and I have 2 sets of different and correlating evidence and you have experience contrary to that ??

Ps: I'm just going to ignore you immaturity in last posting and move on. cheers

[Mr Punch]

I'm going to keep this simple.

Is our information different or correlating or both, and in what way is it different or correlating or both?

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... found a way to measure and recognise light produced by human ( and other living ) cells. Because light is energy , if you hadn't made the connection already, the fact of energy is that it vibrates at a certain frequency. When you apply this to dim mak and the concept of qi / electrical strikes , I feel it gives the concept more scientific credence.
So how much light do human cells produce? Any more than miniscule amounts if any? Put a human in a dark room and they glow? Light is a form of energy, but the converse is not true. E.g. gravitational potential energy. A rock at the top of a hill has more G.P.E. than a rock at the bottom of a hill. Does it therefore vibrate at a different frequency to the rock at the bottom? Or emit more light :rolleyes:? And when you do a dim mak strike, is your current theory that you emit light into the opponent's pressure point? I'm sure you feel that your fragmented thoughts give your bizarre concepts more scientific credence but it does little to convince me of anything.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
We did alot of discussion about sports in general, diet and training techs for martial and other sports. Did you know in Russia they frequently drink vodka at a degree ( %) of 40 in very similar amounts I do and for the exact same reason??interesting no??
( please see the periodic table by Mandeleev for correlating evidence and reason )I think they probably do drink lots of vodka in Russia in similar amounts to what you do and for the exact same reason - they're alcoholics too. Finally we agree on something ... Can you tell me how and why Mandeleev's periodic table correlates your alcohol abuse theory?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I think that what you're neglecting to include in your assesments is the fact that usually you can access several points within one strike. At least we're talking sincerely now rather than having pointless to and fro.

So now you are able to strike multiple points with one strike? How manby points are you able to do that with that will produce serious harm?

7 * - not a chance dude (on the pm)

this is my thing and I'll stand alone - despute it with your information and I'll share mine. Either way.


I can't share anything if you don't. If you give me his name, I can search on him. If you give mean organization at least, then I can search that org for a russian champ.

Why do think I have time to do all these wonderful things you anyway. You know I'm busy and consider half of your requests silly or trite. Sorry boys. You get what I manage.

LOL, don't talk to me about being busy... I work 8-10 hours a day or more, train for three hours a day, do homework with my kid and do the family thing. If you have time to get online and reply to all of these posts, you have time to search. It's called multi-tasking. you can have two windows open - one with kfo and one with google.

Cerebus : If shotokan is not a system with variants we're discussing , Why do Mat and I have 2 sets of different and correlating evidence and you have experience contrary to that ??

Because you are talking about the same thing. As I stated in my post, the techniques may not be taught, but they are in the kata. even if you are training "american shotokan", you are still learning the shotokan kata. Whether or not your instructor knows the applications is a different story.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
So how much light do human cells produce? Any more than miniscule amounts if any? Put a human in a dark room and they glow? Light is a form of energy, but the converse is not true. E.g. gravitational potential energy. A rock at the top of a hill has more G.P.E. than a rock at the bottom of a hill. Does it therefore vibrate at a different frequency to the rock at the bottom? Or emit more light :rolleyes:? And when you do a dim mak strike, is your current theory that you emit light into the opponent's pressure point? I'm sure you feel that your fragmented thoughts give your bizarre concepts more scientific credence but it does little to convince me of anything.

I think they probably do drink lots of vodka in Russia in similar amounts to what you do and for the exact same reason - they're alcoholics too. Finally we agree on something ... Can you tell me how and why Mandeleev's periodic table correlates your alcohol abuse theory?

Now you're being half baked. there are different coloured lights being ommited by cells when under certain magnification. This suggests energy at varying frequencies are also part of the light that comes from those cells and our bodies have certain patterns of energy. Alot of dimmak strikes are to direct physiological points ( nerves / connective tissue/ organs/ joints etc) but for the ones that aren't and are called electrical points, this would explain why they work.

On what me, the centaurians and the Russians know , that you refuse to accept about alcohol being a digestive aid in specific quantity and % , and therefore producing long - life and better health, To be frank, I really don't care what you or anyone else here incorperates or integrates of what I share, as you more than likely don't yourself. It's out there and my onus of responsibity ends there. You have free will, use it, just don't b*tch to me about it. :rolleyes:

Ps: if you can read the periodic table, it explains how and why the "ideal" alcoholic degree was created and from there you should be able to the math the rest of us did.

sven star: of course , like in wrist locks for example where you ideally play about four - 6 points at a time per hand, then strike or what - ever with a foot, leg, cv combo from your feet and maybe a chest, face, head, shoulder strike with the free hand. And , yah, I have tried it out practically to certain degrees. How many of those are there ?? Or who many can I pull off?? I told you, I know where the points are, how to strike them and if I study regularly, I remember what they all do as I know a hand bends and grabs etc. It's not as complicated as it sounds and if you were here and we sparred on it, you'd likely go " oh....now I understand" ( or something similar. but you're not, so you 'll just have to be content with you glean or dismiss it entirely.


On the Russian : did a search on his name myself, and found nothing. I we did talk and spar in depth on various ma and training etc, I really have no reason to doubt him. He was with a big crew of boys and it seemed fairly common knowledge about him in their group. I probably have the wrong spelling for his name , but considering his aim for the foreign ministers' chair and general attitudes here and particularly towards myself, I see no good that would come of sharing any of his personal details. yay a another slander petition
;)

on being busy: 7 * , you are a moderater , it's your job, and when you sleep 1 1/2 hrs consistently through training , lesson planning, teaching, studying , pro-bono couselling sessions through the night with broken teenagers etc etc, then .... you know what? most people have a life , but fact remains, you work here, I'm just visiting.


But if they are not teaching it for whatever reasons , like marked sets in other styles, it has been adapted and varied. Seemed to work for my friend though, and Funoshoki thought it was viable aswell.



:confused: :confused: You know I don't study karate anyway, I'm just sharing some style input from someone who does. How much do you know about Russia anyway. An insight's an insight right.

[Toby]

So you're saying that certain points on the body emit certain specific light frequencies? And those points are dim mak points? Sounds like you're really going out on a limb with that "theory". But I understand that that's your way. Whatever. I mean, you watched a show and they said that certain cells might emit light. You've then gone on to say that not only do cells emit light, but certain cells emit specific light and that makes them a particular dim mak target. Striking them disrupts electrical energy that runs through your body. Is that it in a nutshell? Was any of your "theory" mentioned on the show? Or is it strictly hypothesis?

I don't deny that certain types of alcohol may be good for you, but I doubt vodka's one of them and certainly not in the amounts that you seem to drink (despite saying you only drink 100ml/day).

On the Russian: I wouldn't hold your breath. He's 20. Do you think he'll become Russia's foreign minister in the next 20yrs if ever?

[blooming lotus]

oh so even though we are already at university ( me teaching and him for his Chinese lang. quotient) you're telling me to now question him and all of his friends and classmates aswell ( on things other than policies ) ... give me a break, the guy deserves respect and yah, I truly believe he's working hard enough to not only make it there, but in less than 10.


On the electrical points, please be joking when you say this is how you understand what I wrote! I said each cell has light / energy and a resulting frequency. By understanding this , you can draw relationships between certain cells and organs etc ..... We are just going to confuse ourselves if we continue. And as refreshing as it have someone understand , through mine or their own prior information, I'm sorry. I'm done.

Ps: I don't drink vodka, I begrudggingly drink baijui at the moment, and I drink no more than 100mls , but more likely 20, 40 or 60 mls pending other factors, like temperate, my hydration, activity, dry carbohydrate in system and so on. I can't recall how much he said they drank at home, but because it is so cold there and alcohol has heating properties , it also keeps good bowel and digestive health for its' drinkers there. It's quite logical and I just don't know why ( besides receiving uniformed biased blanket statemented information ) you're not comprehending.

sighs heavily and leaves

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

sven star: of course , like in wrist locks for example where you ideally play about four - 6 points at a time per hand, then strike or what - ever with a foot, leg, cv combo from your feet and maybe a chest, face, head, shoulder strike with the free hand.

A wrist lock? I'm not going there tonight... regardless, you said "...sure, you can access several points within one strike" - you didn't say anything about locks.

And , yah, I have tried it out practically to certain degrees. How many of those are there ?? Or who many can I pull off?? I told you, I know where the points are, how to strike them and if I study regularly, I remember what they all do as I know a hand bends and grabs etc. It's not as complicated as it sounds and if you were here and we sparred on it, you'd likely go " oh....now I understand" ( or something similar. but you're not, so you 'll just have to be content with you glean or dismiss it entirely.

How often do you study them, and under whose guidance?


On the Russian : did a search on his name myself, and found nothing.

c'mon now, you know I don't trust that... PM me his organization at least.

I we did talk and spar in depth on various ma and training etc, I really have no reason to doubt him.

It's not necessarly him that I doubt.

He was with a big crew of boys and it seemed fairly common knowledge about him in their group. I probably have the wrong spelling for his name , but considering his aim for the foreign ministers' chair and general attitudes here and particularly towards myself, I see no good that would come of sharing any of his personal details. yay a another slander petition
;)

I wouldn't slander him - he doesn't post here. All I care about is his organization and the years he was champ.

on being busy: 7 * , you are a moderater , it's your job, and when you sleep 1 1/2 hrs consistently through training , lesson planning, teaching, studying , pro-bono couselling sessions through the night with broken teenagers etc etc, then .... you know what? most people have a life , but fact remains, you work here, I'm just visiting.

1. searching for info is NOT my job.
2. you are here as much as I am.
3. if you have time to post here, you have time to search for something.
4. I don't get too much more sleep than you do.
5. you are visiting, but you visit a heck of a lot.


But if they are not teaching it for whatever reasons , like marked sets in other styles, it has been adapted and varied. Seemed to work for my friend though, and Funoshoki thought it was viable aswell.

kata apps? of course they are viable.



:confused: :confused: You know I don't study karate anyway, I'm just sharing some style input from someone who does. How much do you know about Russia anyway. An insight's an insight right.

What does my knowledge of russia have to do with karate? I don't have to know about russia to know that karate has circular strikes.

[blooming lotus]

trust is a 2 - way street and you're asking for mine??:eek: :o :D Not happening. You don't meet folks this every day, and much as I'd like to help you out, I won't do it. Respect that.

On wrist locks, since when isn't a grab a strike?? Besides look at your cvs from 2 - 6 and tell me ( for a quick ref example ) that you wouldn't easily connect with all of them in one strike if you chose.


How often? Every morning / day / night for several then apply that to form , rinse and repeat. I'm under the guidance of my first teacher regardless of where I am. One teachers form I practice will make me their student where ever I am practicing it from.

Because in Russia they are learning Karate and on a comp circuit )and now we learn they doing it differently) , I thought you may like to know that. Russia has alot to offer an athlete, look at their gymnasts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
trust is a 2 - way street and you're asking for mine??:eek: :o :D Not happening. You don't meet folks this every day, and much as I'd like to help you out, I won't do it. Respect that.

I'm not asking for your trust - I'm doubting you and your search. Nothing incriminating will come from knowing what organization he belongs to - it's just another way for you to not provide proof of any of your claims. I don't give a d@mn about him other than what he was the champ of.

On wrist locks, since when isn't a grab a strike?? Besides look at your cvs from 2 - 6 and tell me ( for a quick ref example ) that you wouldn't easily connect with all of them in one strike if you chose.

how many cun are between them? I'm not sure you can with a fist or with the ball of the foot - the striking surface would have to be wider.

a grab is just that - a grab. I don't consider the contact made as a result of the grab or preceeding the grab as a strike.


How often? Every morning / day / night for several then apply that to form , rinse and repeat. I'm under the guidance of my first teacher regardless of where I am. One teachers form I practice will make me their student where ever I am practicing it from.

exactly. not under direct supervision.

Because in Russia they are learning Karate and on a comp circuit )and now we learn they doing it differently) , I thought you may like to know that. Russia has alot to offer an athlete, look at their gymnasts.


How are they doing it differently? Are you now saying that only the russians have eliminated circular strikes? or are you referring to the supposed lack of throws?

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
oh so even though we are already at university ( me teaching and him for his Chinese lang. quotient) you're telling me to now question him and all of his friends and classmates aswell ( on things other than policies ) ... give me a break, the guy deserves respect and yah, I truly believe he's working hard enough to not only make it there, but in less than 10.So he's at university therefore he'll be Russian Foreign Minister? It's good to be ambitious, but also good to be realistic. You think he'll be there before he's 30? Has there ever been a Russian front bench minister of any portfolio aged under 30? I doubt there's been one in Australia. Dunno about Russia, but I doubt it either.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
On the electrical points, please be joking when you say this is how you understand what I wrote! I said each cell has light / energy and a resulting frequency. By understanding this , you can draw relationships between certain cells and organs etc ...I try to understand what you write, but often fail. If each cell emits light (please stop saying light == energy), what relationship can I draw between certain cells and organs? And what does this have to do with dim mak? You're thinking that if I had e.g. a point on my arm that emitted light with a wavelength of 460nm, then hitting that would affect my e.g. liver that emits light of wavelength 460nm? I hardly think you can "draw relationships" between light emitted from cells and their effect on each other.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: I don't drink vodka, I begrudggingly drink baijui at the moment, and I drink no more than 100mls , but more likely 20, 40 or 60 mls ...Any yet you're often drunk when you post. Obviously a cheap date :D.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'm under the guidance of my first teacher regardless of where I am. One teachers form I practice will make me their student where ever I am practicing it from.Really? I doubt a teacher would consider a student a student unless it was a substantial relationship. E.g. we (like most MA schools I imagine) have a high turnover of beginners. By the time people get to my lowly level, we're about 1/4 of what we started with. Seniors become way rarer. I wouldn't call myself a student although I aspire to be. If I left and e.g. went overseas, I don't think I would still be considered a student by my teacher. Seeing you've learnt dim mak for under a year, how substantial is your relationship with your teacher? I doubt people become serious students at my school until they've e.g. completed the 1st system.

[Mr Punch]

OK.

Your first statement I took issue with:


Lotus:
He was also curious ( which I find intersting ) on take down and ninjutsu execution strategy, ( severly lacking in karate , samuried root , and no surprise, it was developed to defend against them ) .Which implies that ninjutsu was developed to fight karate techs or at least the historical precedent of karate techs. Wrong:

Me:
Ninjutsu goes back about 900 years... Okinawa karate which has its roots in peasants and farmers defending against the samurai.You also suggested that Shotokan has no takedowns (and implied that as ninjutsu was developed to fight samurai karate techs it in fact never had any takedowns). Wrong. Okinawan karate always had takedowns and sweeps. Then please note I did not say Shotokan did not have takedowns now. I said this:
Me:
...and Funakoshi took a lot of them out of Shotokan for various reasons...I said this more to back up that Shotokan had always had and indeed still does have takedown techs than any other reason.

So the following:
Lotus
What do you say then about Mats' comment on Funoshokis removal of it for what ever reason?? Apparently Shotokan has changed and evolved to include various systems still under the umbrella of Shotokan , is the obvious conclusion.. do you think??... holds even less water. 'It' is not one entity: takedown technique; but there were in fact many takedown techniques, some of which were removed. The reason for this was that he wanted to make it more accessible to the masses, and as Seven has pointed out, many of them were encoded into the kata, but they are still there, and are still taught at an advanced level (maybe this explains why your friend doesn't know them - they begin at maybe shodan, what level is he?). There are no 'various systems' under Shotokan, and nor was this an obvious conclusion. Shotokan, along with the other big five karate organisations in Japan, is very closely and strictly regulated. There are offshoots, like Shukokai, and they have different names, like Shukokai.

BTW, I am not plural and 'Funoshoki' does not, to my knowledge, exist. Typing is important. Still.

Cerebus was not wrong in that I haven't trained in Shotokan. He was wrong in saying that I had said there were no throws or takedowns but I take it he was following your argument rather than concentrating on my post.


Lotus
For the record, yes I know ninjutsu techs for execution ( however few ) but what I mean usually when I say "execution" is execution of techniques. I'm not going to go into whether the original ninja execution techs still exist, tho I don't believe they do. But, in the original context:
Lotus:
He was also curious ( which I find intersting ) on take down and ninjutsu execution strategy, ( severly lacking in karate , no surprise why would the execution strategy of ninjutsu techniques or the execution of ninjutsu strategy techniques even be included in karate? You may have just made another typo, or you may have in fact meant ninjutsu execution techniques after all (which is what I think). You were probably drunk, and probably don't even remember. If you can't write lucidly, maybe it's better to wait for the next day?

Finally, to get us up to speed:
Lotus
Cerebus : If shotokan is not a system with variants we're discussing , Why do Mat and I have 2 sets of different and correlating evidence and you have experience contrary to that ??'different and correlating' is a possibility, but given that correlating evidence means evidence 'bearing statistical similiarity to' other evidence (off the top of my head), and different means, well, 'different', these two descriptions are though not impossible, not highly likely. To clear away all doubt on the matter, my 'evidence' was completely in agreement with what cerebus was later to point out, and in opposition to your 'evidence'. Even if this hadn't been the case, it would have been a more likely conclusion that you and I, neither of us having practised Shotokan karate, though both of us obviously having had a exposure to those that do, were in fact erroneous in our analysis of the art, and that Seven and cerebus, both of whom have studied the art and come up with the same evidence, were in fact correct.

I've tried putting this as clearly and civilly as possible, and even passed up a couple of marvellous opportunities to rip the **** out of your continuing ignorance. I'm boring even myself. Don't bother replying to this post, it will be stupid... moving on...

[Mr Punch]

Lotus
So we are agreeing that shodokan at least has removed takedowns right?? We spoke about this in relation to fighting a boxer on the street and how his/ her floating feet tech would effect the outcome, consider shodakan lacks forementioned and also has dynamic feet. I think there's a point to consider in there if you spend a minute on it. what styles etc etc.....
Sounds interesting. WTF does it mean? Maybe you could start another thread about fighting boxers on the street, floating feet techs, shodakan, dynamic feet... and all the points to consider...


Ok, now that was sarcasm.

But BTW, we are still not agreeing Shotokan has removed takedowns. Shotokan still ahs takedowns. You are wrong.

[cerebus]

Right you are Mat. I was responding to the words bl tried to put in your mouth, I should have guessed she'd lie just to try and make herself feel better. Of course she knows nothing about Karate, and even admits her ignorance of it, but claims that she has offered proof that I am wrong. Typical bl post. She's confused and ignorant, so she lashes out at everyone around her and refuses to accept any knowledge from anyone because she is so needy for people to look at her as being some kind of teacher (which she will never be).

And SevenStar, read her responses to your questions regarding her hypothetical Russian friend. That sounds EXACTLY like the unpopular kid in school trying to brag about actually having a friend when their only friends are in their imagination. :p :p

[Mr Punch]

It has been no secret for a long time that cells in any living organism contain and in many cases emit energy. So far, most hypotheses go that this is some kind of energy equivalent to electrical-magnetic energy generated by biochemical reactions. However the fact that no-one has actually been able to reliably measure this energy suggests that although it may be related to biochemically generated electromagnetic energy, it may be some other kind of biological energy that we don't have sufficient instrumentation to measure yet.

What the programme you watched yesterday was probably saying was that somebody has devised a means of measuring the output of living cells by using a meter that picks up light waves. It does not mean that our cells are producing light. If they were, we would glow.

This is no different to being picked up on infra-red monitors. It is in fact heat energy that is given off and picked up through infra-red reading technology: it doesn't mean that we go round giving off a red light. Our means of reading energy have an effect on our understanding of energy itself.

Besides that, when you talk about the 'vibration' of light, are you talking about the wavelength, the velocity or the frequency? If you are talking about disrupting energy through the wavelength, your invisible light being given off in the cells would be close to infrared or a microwave wavelength, and presumably any disruption to that pattern would require a strike generating somehwere near that wavelength. So what you're talking about is hitting somebody and generating a pulse of near infrared energy, or maybe microwaving their cells/organs on a cellular level? I don't believe you have any idea what you're talking about.

Even if you are talking about the velocity or the frequency maybe you could explain how exactly your strike will effect these things, or if you are talking about another quality of light no-one has yet come up with please explain. Keep it simple, because I have to admit: my knowledge of particle physics is not so hot.

Of course, I'm humouring you. I don't believe your knowledge of particle physics is all that hot either. The difference being, I don't try to pass myself off with any pseudo-scientific bs, I just say, "I don't know". Please refer to my sig. You have the perfect get-out: you can point out that you were only suggesting there may be a link between the findings on your programme and what you are talking about in terms of dim-mak strikes.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Mat
Besides that, when you talk about the 'vibration' of light, are you talking about the wavelength, the velocity or the frequency?I think 'vibration' is just Eyebrows' attempt at logicising it. Didn't you know 'vibration' is colloquial for 'frequency' :D? Velocity is for all intensive purposes constant so given wavelength you've got frequency and vice versa. I've got no problem with the body emitting heat energy, but I do have a problem with emitting light energy or electrical energy in any significant amount (i.e. enough to send chi blasts or disrupt someone else's qi ;)).

[SevenStar]

mat has struck the correct in a vital area by homing in on it's light frequency.

[cerebus]

And, as always, pitiful little bl has been knocked the fuk out! :D :D

[blooming lotus]

I'm not even going to try to talk science with you, because you obviously just don't understand and I'd be wasting my time. Nor Karate for that matter , except to say that in Russia, or at this particular champion producing shotokan school, they've dropped circular feet ( if it was ever part of the system).


I'd consider asking him more , but he left for Russia yesterday and I'm not even sure if I have an email adress :(

no drama...if I do here from him, I'll ask him what I can.

7 * : As for how many tsun, what between the cvs?? You have the charts and should be able to tell me but 1 - 2 max between each of the lowers. 2-4 are good strikes but they're too close to 5 and 6 ( extremely dangerous with the right angle ) , so unless neccessary, I usually don't bother.

same with alot of liv and kid points , very close together and high damage. But very few points aren't really ( high damage that is).

On students practicing under someone only when in front of their original teacher, I think you'll find folks will disagree. Like perhaps Gene, who always refers to Shi DeCheng in this capactity, yet doesn't live in the same country nor does he see him often. If you could hear me speak, you'd know I was really well spoken and sweet most of the time. From this seat, you guys are lashing, and ott aggressive more often than not. Doesn't matter though I guess. I'm kind of use to it really.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'm not even going to try to talk science with you, because you obviously just don't understand and I'd be wasting my time.Nice cop out. Or maybe it's just that you don't know **** about anything except Eyebrows pseudoscience (i.e. lies).

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... at this particular champion producing shotokan school, they've dropped circular feet ( if it was ever part of the system).So now it's not "Shotokan doesn't have circular techniques", it's "at this one particular school they don't use circular foot techniques"? Quite a difference, really.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'd consider asking him more , but he left for Russia yesterday and I'm not even sure if I have an email adress :(

no drama...if I do here from him, I'll ask him what I can.Now you're suddenly willing to ask him stuff after refusing 7*'s requests point blank a few hours ago, but conveniently your imaginary boyfriend left all of a sudden? I thought he was studying to become Russian Foreign Minister? Luckily you'll get back to us later with answers ... Riiiight. You're a joke. Can't you see it?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
From this seat, you guys are lashing, and ott aggressive more often than not. Doesn't matter though I guess. I'm kind of use to it really. You bring it on yourself with your compulsive lies.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
On students practicing under someone only when in front of their original teacher, I think you'll find folks will disagree. Like perhaps Gene, who always refers to Shi DeCheng in this capactity, yet doesn't live in the same country nor does he see him often.Depends. The other country thing was just an example. Long distance isn't ideal, but it works if both student and teacher are willing to perpetuate the relationship. In that case I'm sure Gene endeavours to see his teacher and continue learning in the future. Based on your history and future intentions it seems you flit from MA to MA (if Tae-bo can be called a MA) and never continue anything to completion. Even parenting. Are you going to continue your dim mak studies with your teacher until you complete his system? Or did you already complete the system in a year?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Nice cop out. Or maybe it's just that you don't know **** about anything except Eyebrows pseudoscience (i.e. lies).
So now it's not "Shotokan doesn't have circular techniques", it's "at this one particular school they don't use circular foot techniques"? Quite a difference, really.
Now you're suddenly willing to ask him stuff after refusing 7*'s requests point blank a few hours ago, but conveniently your imaginary boyfriend left all of a sudden? I thought he was studying to become Russian Foreign Minister? Luckily you'll get back to us later with answers ... Riiiight. You're a joke. Can't you see it?
You bring it on yourself with your compulsive lies.


How the karate thing came up in the first place , was because I told you we sparred and they had no round - house.
And if I was legit, who'd that make the joke?? :rolleyes: I really don't know if I'll see or hear from him again, and I'm a little sensitive about it at the moment if you don't mind. I probably would've asked him anyway, but if I get answers I'll pass it on. Talking the way you do doesn't usually get a person far though.

Oh and now it's your character against Genes' the story changes ha?? At least I'm consistent. And of course if I'm in the counrty I'll take more seminars. This is how I spend my days, studying, training and teaching. I take the best of what's around. on completetion though, my kid is 10, are you saying she's done?? It was enough to get to her this far, and you know I'm on my way home. On flitting, I travel alot, and I take what skills I can from whatever system is about. I don't believe any one system covered all bases anyway, so method works. When it's only about the information, and not the belts, kinda changes things a little.

Ps: what I have learnt in this yr only of dim mak and the skills I've collected throughtout china, scares me to be frank.
Yah, have good understanding... but then just like ninjutsu, dim mak doesn't exsist either right.

:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

and one moment, on Kirill ( Russian ) and his ambitions he works toward, don't forget you used to be a drug addict and look what you've achieved!! A freakin degree dude!! A beautiful kid presumabley going well!! Who are you to say that others are incapable??!!! And dhe oesn't even have that addiction, the psychosis , nor your ego to deal with. and I hope someone encourages your own kid with the same fevor.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'd consider asking him more , but he left for Russia yesterday and I'm not even sure if I have an email adress :(

how convenient...

7 * : As for how many tsun, what between the cvs?? You have the charts and should be able to tell me but 1 - 2 max between each of the lowers. 2-4 are good strikes but they're too close to 5 and 6 ( extremely dangerous with the right angle ) , so unless neccessary, I usually don't bother.

I don't think the charts on montaigue's site gave distance. Send me a url to what you are looking at. if there are two between each of the lowers, then isn't that wider than a fist?


On students practicing under someone only when in front of their original teacher, I think you'll find folks will disagree. Like perhaps Gene, who always refers to Shi DeCheng in this capactity, yet doesn't live in the same country nor does he see him often.

The shuai chiao group I work with is in a different state. I don't agree with that per se. But, to be studying something as precise as dim mak, and something so sensitive, I don't believe you can legitimately do it long distance, especially if you only have a year of training. And definitely not the the level of proficiency that you claim to have.


If you could hear me speak, you'd know I was really well spoken and sweet most of the time. From this seat, you guys are lashing, and ott aggressive more often than not. Doesn't matter though I guess. I'm kind of use to it really.

We're lashing at your statements and claims, not your personality.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Nor Karate for that matter , except to say that in Russia, or at this particular champion producing shotokan school, they've dropped circular feet ( if it was ever part of the system).

which is it? footwork, throws or strikes? you've said all three so far.

[blooming lotus]

my charts aren't on a link 7. i was given a copy from another practioner. The upper most of lower is no.d eight. then 7 one down, 6 2 from that, 1 down 5 then 4 2 down , 3 one down and 2 2 from there. Do you see?? It'd be pointless to aim for all of them though because they are similar strikes but 5 &6 is a lethal combo, and so is 3,4,5. 2 on it's own is also good, but too hard and they're peeing blood and blah blah blah....

He has a few friends around I may or may not ask, but don't pressure me okay. It was sad when he left and space now about it would be great thanks.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
How the karate thing came up in the first place , was because I told you we sparred and they had no round - house.Really? Here's the quote:

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: did you know in shodokan karate they have no circular ( round styled ) strikes and make amends with dynamic feet focus??Doesn't sound much like "we sparred and he had no roundhouse". Sounds more like "shodokan (sic) karate has no circular strikes".

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Oh and now it's your character against Genes' the story changes ha?? At least I'm consistent.Not at all. You've totally misinterpreted my post. If a student continues to show interest and maintain contact, they will remain a student. If OTOH a student flits around and never contacts the teacher again, that'll be the end of it.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
I take the best of what's around. Jack of all trades ... Unfortunately you seem to think the next line is "master of all".

Originally posted by blooming lotus
on completetion though, my kid is 10, are you saying she's done?? It was enough to get to her this far, and you know I'm on my way home. On flitting, I travel alot, and I take what skills I can from whatever system is about. I don't believe any one system covered all bases anyway, so method works. When it's only about the information, and not the belts, kinda changes things a little.Forms collector. On your daughter - no, I don't know you're on your way home. You were recently asking 7* about spending 2yrs in Japan. Then you wanted to spend 2yrs in Sydney or Perth. Doesn't your daughter live on the Gold Coast?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: what I have learnt in this yr only of dim mak and the skills I've collected throughtout china, scares me to be frank.It doesn't scare me. It makes me laugh. Like your pretentious Chinese phrases that you keep throwing in.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... but then just like ninjutsu, dim mak doesn't exsist either right.Ninjas are real! I've seen the Michael Dudikoff movie ...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

Ps: did you know in shodokan karate they have no circular ( round styled ) strikes and make amends with dynamic feet focus??


How the karate thing came up in the first place , was because I told you we sparred and they had no round - house.

see the difference?

However, shotokan does have a roundhouse...

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Who are you to say that others are incapable??!!!My point wasn't he's not capable. It's that it's better to be realistic than to set yourself up for disappointment. Aspiring to be foreign minister of a former world superpower at the age of 20 isn't totally realistic unless you have connections. E.g. if I was a Kennedy in America it may be possible. If I was a guy in a bar who picked up BL for a couple of days it might not be.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
It was sad when he left and space now about it would be great thanks. Wtf - you met him two days ago :confused:. Get over it. Or was this gunna be "love" like that guy last month?

[Mr Punch]

I haven't lashed out at you (yet). I've asked you a couple of reasonable questions, reasonably. And I said my particle physics isn't so hot, I didn't say I was ****wit: I've humoured you, so would you mind humouring me and answering my questions?

I don't think anyone is arguing that nerve points don't work. I think they are arguing that they are very low percentage, and that you don't know what you're talking about. Sure there have been lots of experiments and such that suggest a link between nerve points and modern science, but quite what you think you are adding to it is what's beyond most people here.

Another couple of points...

A grab is not a strike.

Maybe at a stretch if you're talking about a tiger claw or an eagle claw, but generally nobody else would call a grab a strike.

For how long did you practise nerve point work? You do know that dim-mak is not an art in itself (nobody was trying to argue that ninjutsu is not an art or that dim-mak doesn't exist so please don't make any more straw men to deflect the 'argument')? Did you practise on people? In sparring? How?

Do you think that practising 'dim-mak' in a kata has bearing on your success against somebody in real life?

The likely factors are among others:

1) The opponent's body-type:

On some people nerve point stuff works. With some people you can grab a point on their wrist and they writhe about in agony, so it's not unfeasible to suppose that if you hit that point it would cause some similar effect. With the vast majority of people these things do not work. The reasons are:

a) There are many different body types. Most of them do not seem to be greatly effected by nerve strikes/grabs.
b) Big people often have bigger nerve points. They also have a larger and thicker layer of protective tissue. Thus nerve strikes do not work so often on them.
c) Small people have smaller, more difficult to hit nerve points.
d) People who work out a lot often have a thicker, more dense protective layer over most of their nerve points.
e) People who train a lot of ma often have a thick layer of damaged scar-like tissue overlaying the nerve point.

2) The opponent's reaction:

In some cases, I'm sure you can grab someone and hit them somewhere and they go down like a sack of spuds. In most cases, I'm guessing on the following:

a) When you grab someone, the natural reaction is usually to pull away, usually while hitting/kicking you. The chances of you being successful in keeping the grab on the right place (or getting an immediate effect that lasts after your hand is removed) whilst striking another specific point, before the opponent pulls away and hits you anywhere are very slight. This is not an opinion: they have a target the size of a whole body and they have to get you to slip off a target the size of maybe a ten-pence-piece.
b) As stated above, everybody's body is different, and everybody's reaction is different. So, anybody who has been practising an art that says "When you do this your opponent does this" has been wasting their time.
c) A load of adrenaline/booze/crack will do wonders to negate any immediate or even relatively quick effects from a nerve manipulation.

3) The effect of the nerve point damage:

a) When we do a certain type of nerve point grab (on the wrist) I always get a cold/bunged up nose. This is not going to stop me from trying to beat the **** out of you.
b) In general, if all of the theories about nerve points are correct, they are very specific. You are just as likely to hit a nerve point that makes somebody wanna go and make a cup of tea at 3 o'clock in the morning as one that makes him fall over.
c) Nerve points are everywhere. As you actually got right it's not rocket science finding one, but the chances of it being any use are extremely low.
d) If I knock you out, I may have hit a nerve point. Or, I may have bounced your brain off the back of your skull in a much more rudimentary wave pattern. In that case, it's semantics. Does it mean your way doesn't exist? No, but it does mean that my way is a higher percentage to train.

4) The way you train:

a) If you train dim-mak by predominantly using kata you will get beaten.
b) See (a).
c) I've been taught nerve points in shiatsu, aikido and wingchun. I've practised them in the same, plus shoot-wrestling, full contact and semi contact sparring and on the street. My concentration on such a small point has always led to me being beaten. I'm very fast and accurate. I now don't practise them, but when they come up (usually with the effect of very temporarily breaking someone's rhythm, concentration or attack) I'm delighted.

[Toby]

Nice post Mat.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Toby
Nice post Mat. Cheers. Shame really. Not much passing for debate round here... :(

[cerebus]

LOL! Here she goes with her drama queen garbage again! :rolleyes: She claims to have met this theoretical "Russian" just 2 days ago. But he's supposed to be one of her "university level" English students. He also became her instant "dim mak" student. They supposedly sparred once and now he's leaving. Wow, he mastered the English language in 2 days! I guess he's a "genuise" like you, huh? :rolleyes:

As for the comment about Shotokan having no takedowns, etc, I corrected your erroneous info and you came back saying that you had proved me wrong. :rolleyes:

But hey guys, she also claims that she "never" lies. :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

******, bottom of the page again, means she isn't going to answer any of my points again... oh well, saves me some time I guess!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
My point wasn't he's not capable. It's that it's better to be realistic than to set yourself up for disappointment. Aspiring to be foreign minister of a former world superpower at the age of 20 isn't totally realistic unless you have connections. E.g. if I was a Kennedy in America it may be possible. If I was a guy in a bar who picked up BL for a couple of days it might not be.
Wtf - you met him two days ago :confused:. Get over it. Or was this gunna be "love" like that guy last month?

okay biting. How do either of us know he doesn't have conntact to begin with?? 2nd, I am still comming home to do my phd in human movement, then on to medicine teaching fitness and maybe ma as I study.

There was no guy last month, it was the month before and he just followed me around China until I agreed to let him have a shot. Not that it's really your business but yah, this guy is someone I could see many more days, but he'll be in Russia and I'll be persuing life at home, if it's okay with yourself. And who'd 've guessed they made em like that anyway???

Mat : please don't be offended at what my tone sometimes seem to be. I came to my own understanding through so many different means from qi, to technology to medine and so on. It also happens that I have a knack for taking the esoteric and turning it to related scientific answers and studies. I'm not here to prove I know , only to share what I do. Take it or leave it. This is years of cummulative knowledge.

if you look at emei gongfu, you will find that a grab is indeed a strike.

I've been practicing dimmak for only just over a year, but it has many inter-related principals I've studied for many years previously. Ie: qigong and tcm, etc I study so many things, I just umbrella it all as "human condition studies " .... they should create a degree and call it that no?? It'd make my life easier anyway. :p

I only did minimal practice to begin and spar applying it to new forms etc as I pick them up, but my little brother also practices and has done for longer than me. I think in dim mak trusting your partner has a whole new meaning and we frequently do this .

There are different reasons why particular points don't work on certain people, like fat %, iron body, etc and there are some points you would never use in tight spot. There are others though that rarely fail, and if they do it's because you weren't accurate. In practing the art for healing, which I do on myself and others very frequently, you again become familiar wit the same points that applied differently become destructive. There are many points with very little protective tissue, but will do the job from your feet to legs to torso to arms back neck and head. Each fight, just like any other style is an individual assessment as to which strike to use and where to put it.

On the grab and strike, I also have a little aikdo, ninjutsu, wrestling etc of my own so there are always follow up points accessable close to most grabs I'll try for and failing that, a back up point on the reverse.

Not true on the alcohol. Liquor speeds up your metabolism and increases blood flow, so a yang strike on diverting blood or sending it somewhere like to a part of the head sharply, will make someone dizzy and induce unconciousness. Like I said, you assess the oppnent you fight as circumstance dictates . 1001 possiblities.

I think you misunderstand.. dim mak is not only nerve points but do include them and for the record, If I thought you were gunning to knock me out, I think I'd get there first ;)

[cerebus]

LOL! Nice way to avoid all the points I brought up. Just what I would expect from someone who reads a dim mak book and considers herself to be a master! :p :p :p

[blooming lotus]

why does everyone keep insinuating I think I'm a master. I only master at lotus blooming and the whole idea of that is that it keeps unfolding but never does. Nice contribution though on your part.

[cerebus]

Believe me bl, NO ONE on this forum thinks you're a master (nice ego you have there :rolleyes: ). That's just the way you always try to portray yourself. We'd be happy if you just weren't such a pathological liar.

[blooming lotus]

Cerebus : you make me so sad. You work all night, and must sleep somewhat during the day, and these thoughts are how you spend your waking moments?? Find something nice to bring into your life.

[cerebus]

Yes, I suppose that in your little world the truth IS very sad. The truth, Michelle, is that you couldn't pass a primary school English test. The truth is that you don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of physiology, or psychology, or martial arts. And yet you claim expertise in all of these.

I'm glad to see that you're finally agreeing with me that all of that is VERY sad indeed. I feel very sorry for you Michelle. Sad, just sad. :(

[blooming lotus]

By saying that, and making outlandish statements, you're really presenting a rude picture. I need to go hydrate, so be well and smile at someone.

[cerebus]

Yes, for bl truth is considered "outlandish". Of course her ridiculous claims (which she cannot back up in any way, shape or form) are what she tries to convince herself are real. Very sad. Pitiful.

[blooming lotus]

and you're here trying to convince people I couldn't pass a primary school examination and we're meant to take it or anything else you seriously??

[cerebus]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have to. You constantly prove all my points for me every time you post. If you weren't so pitiful it'd be downright funny how everyone who's commented on your complete lack of English language abilities agrees with me. You, however, act like their posts don't even exist 'cause it'd be too much of a blow to your fragile ego to admit the facts.

You're living in denial bl, but that won't make you into who you want to be no matter how tightly you close your mind to the real world. I'm just pointing these things out to you. Of course, you'll completely ignore anything anyone says to you because you don't have the mental capacity to accept the truth. Sucks to be you.

[blooming lotus]

I don't know what you think I'm denying Cerebus, but this is life, and for me, it's been through various lifestyles and experiences. You're just being silly. Get some sleep tommorow ha.

[cerebus]

If you want to call someone pointing out your own foolishness "silly", so be it. As I said, you'll always be blind and foolish, no matter how many people try to point you toward reality. You don't want it, you won't accept. Once again, sucks to be you.

[blooming lotus]

You mean like the "reality " of me being a little old chinese man laughing at you while in my rocking chair in Alabama?? How do you talk sense to that??

[cerebus]

Huh? You've slipped a gear there bl. You're becoming incoherent and starting to babble.

I'm talking about the reality that you are not now and never were and never will be a soldier, high-paid model, psychological counselor, PhD in physiology, dim mak expert, martial artist, Buddhist, etc, etc.

I'm not denying that you're a serious "wannabe", but you lack the attention span and would just keep tripping over your massive ego if you even TRIED to do any of those things to a serious level. Together with the fact that you think the whole world reveolves around you (here's a clue: it doesn't).

[blooming lotus]

no. I did the training / recruitment to become a soldier in the NZ army , but didn't / couldn't take the opsitions they offered me, then straight up, developed anorexia and had to go eat a while. You know yourself Gene ( if no-one else ) offered me a negotiation to model for KFM ( oh...hold up , that was for a magazine discount ) , but no, still not posting the pics I modelled for A. kinda naked in alot of them, so not so appropriate, and B. You've seen my face and abs and being we're only talking health, fitness and MA ( right Cerebus) it's just a little irrelevant.

the phd in ch'an I haven't written the dissertation for but is comming along nicely, the bags I had under my eyes for so long are testimony to the couselling I did, Still good with the dim mak, practice ma when ever possible but failing that a good body conditioning sweat'll do fine thanks, and don't talk to Gene because he might just confirm ( If he's spoken to Wang Yu Min from cits Dengfeng) that I rocked up to his old gongfu school or that I tried to get a discipleship or maybe he'd even tell you how we've been talking shaolin philosphy via email for over a year now. But we wouldn't want to put him on the spot, so give it a rest you lunatic!!!!

Oh and you forgot to mention the dancing career and that I'm planning to undertake a medical degree after I get back to country I supposedly never lived in and rpl to tie up a human movement phd. Crazy stuff :rolleyes:

This is living a full life experience!!

[cerebus]

LOL! And she says I'M a lunatic! :p :p :p

So she's getting a PhD in Chan Buddhism (didn't realize the monks were giving out souvenir diplomas, lol!) as well as one in physiology and another in psychology! Well hey, I guess if you're gonna lie at least make it a whopper, eh? :p :p

[blooming lotus]

Is that the philosphy you're plugging??? I'll do my best

Ps: foreigners won't be permitted to indocrinate until after Tianjin opens in '08. I've decided I can't wait that long and will contribute in the mean time through health, medicine and my dissertation.

PPs: ( whispers) the phd comes from a uni ;)

[blooming lotus]

oh and the psychology phd, was just a bunch of courses / modules that only add up to a part diploma. :eek: And I only took it and the couselling diploma, because I'm a single mommy and I wanted my daughter to be good with having no daddy. Now it's helped so many folks that it's enough to my make my own mom proud ;)

Ps: in case you didn't catch it, that couselling with 2 l's and yes, no doubt your dictionary'll spell it different. Crazy Americans !

[cerebus]

"wanted my daughter to be good with having no daddy"

And apparently no mommy either.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Mat : please don't be offended at what my tone sometimes seem to be. I came to my own understanding through so many different means from qi, to technology to medine and so on. It also happens that I have a knack for taking the esoteric and turning it to related scientific answers and studies. I'm not here to prove I know , only to share what I do. Take it or leave it. This is years of cummulative knowledge.Don't take my civility as offence, and don't take it as ignorance either. I asked you some specific questions about the nature of energy disruption in your model of dim-mak and you have not answered me. If you want me to reply more candidly let me put it like this: who the **** do you think you are? and, who the **** do you think you're kidding? Give us a straight answer or **** off.


if you look at emei gongfu, you will find that a grab is indeed a strike.We were looking at the subject through your frame of reference, as you started the thread. You started with general dim-mak, somehow espousing it as a separate art, and then moved onto shotokan karate, proving in your arguments against proponents of that style, that you knew **** about that too, based on your few days of practise with some geezer that you met. So now are you going to tell us what you know about emei kungfu?

We're not asking you to prove yourself. Just to be able to stick with something and contribute to a discussion occasionally.


I've been practicing dimmak for only just over a year, but it has many inter-related principals I've studied for many years previously. Ie: qigong and tcm, etc I study so many things, I just umbrella it all as "human condition studies " .... they should create a degree and call it that no?? It'd make my life easier anyway. :p

I only did minimal practice to begin and spar applying it to new forms etc as I pick them up, but my little brother also practices and has done for longer than me. I think in dim mak trusting your partner has a whole new meaning and we frequently do this . They could create a degree in it. Some people have degrees and still talk a lot of ****. Your brother practises and has done for a long time maybe, but that doesn't mean you have/do does it? When was the last time you practised with any kind of guidance?


There are different reasons why particular points don't work on certain people, like fat %, iron body, etc and there are some points you would never use in tight spot. There are others though that rarely fail, and if they do it's because you weren't accurate. In practing the art for healing, which I do on myself and others very frequently, you again become familiar wit the same points that applied differently become destructive. There are many points with very little protective tissue, but will do the job from your feet to legs to torso to arms back neck and head. Each fight, just like any other style is an individual assessment as to which strike to use and where to put it.

Not true on the alcohol. Liquor speeds up your metabolism and increases blood flow, so a yang strike on diverting blood or sending it somewhere like to a part of the head sharply, will make someone dizzy and induce unconciousness. Like I said, you assess the oppnent you fight as circumstance dictates . 1001 possiblities.If you hit a guy who's been drinking a lot and he falls over it could be down to any number of reasons. I've hit big guys who've been drinking and it's had less effect than hitting big guys who haven't been drinking. Usually. In fact, usually it makes them angry. You can talk to them about yang strikes till you're butt****ed, but I'd rather just hit them again. Those weren't points of discussion, they were points I've noticed through my experience... so it's kind of as scientific as your points... so let's call it:


On the grab and strike, I also have a little aikdo, ninjutsu, wrestling etc of my own so there are always follow up points accessable close to most grabs I'll try for and failing that, a back up point on the reverse.Congrats. I have 14 years experience of aikido and its nerve points, including trying it three or four times a week in sparring with people from other styles. I have 8-9 years of wingchun blah blah blah. Do I need to ask, what's your little exp and in what? You wanna learn wingchun quickly, on second thoughts come to Japan and I'll teach you for a reasonable rate. But it'll ****ing hurt you. And you wouldn't be a better person for it.
I think you misunderstand.. dim mak is not only nerve points but do include them and for the record, If I thought you were gunning to knock me out, I think I'd get there first ;) Yeah, right. Back on ignore.

[SevenStar]

if you look at emei gongfu, you will find that a grab is indeed a strike.


Here's another style being mentioned... how much experience do you have in this one?

As for the master comment - we don't insist you're a master. you make claims of being able to do things in less than a year that others insist take decades. you try to portray yourself as a master.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no. I did the training / recruitment to become a soldier in the NZ army , but didn't / couldn't take the opsitions they offered me, then straight up, developed anorexia and had to go eat a while. You know yourself Gene ( if no-one else ) offered me a negotiation to model for KFM ( oh...hold up , that was for a magazine discount ) , but no, still not posting the pics I modelled for A. kinda naked in alot of them, so not so appropriate, and B. You've seen my face and abs and being we're only talking health, fitness and MA ( right Cerebus) it's just a little irrelevant.

the phd in ch'an I haven't written the dissertation for but is comming along nicely, the bags I had under my eyes for so long are testimony to the couselling I did, Still good with the dim mak, practice ma when ever possible but failing that a good body conditioning sweat'll do fine thanks, and don't talk to Gene because he might just confirm ( If he's spoken to Wang Yu Min from cits Dengfeng) that I rocked up to his old gongfu school or that I tried to get a discipleship or maybe he'd even tell you how we've been talking shaolin philosphy via email for over a year now. But we wouldn't want to put him on the spot, so give it a rest you lunatic!!!!

Oh and you forgot to mention the dancing career and that I'm planning to undertake a medical degree after I get back to country I supposedly never lived in and rpl to tie up a human movement phd. Crazy stuff :rolleyes:

This is living a full life experience!!


Let's not forget that you were offered the lead singer position in savage garden.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
You know yourself Gene ( if no-one else ) offered me a negotiation to model for KFM ( oh...hold up , that was for a magazine discount ) , but no, still not posting the pics I modelled for A. kinda naked in alot of them, so not so appropriate, and B. You've seen my face and abs and being we're only talking health, fitness and MA ( right Cerebus) it's just a little irrelevant.


Are you referring to the pics you sent gene?

[Buby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]Are you accurate and skilled enough that you can do such things at will and in rapid succession?

- I'm not skilled at all, but I have been able to pull it off most of the times. I can't say that I can pull it off on just anybody, because people have different skill levels. Rapid succession - The combos almost make people fall into your next move (kinematic reaction), so the next strike is natrual and free flowing(lots of use of rebound energy)...so yes, it can be pulled off in rapid succession. Plus, because of the way our system is designed it allows to have very fast hands.


let's merge your example with BL's. you hit your boy and his knees went weak - could you have then hit the four or five other points before he was able to retaliate at all?

-Why use four or five hits? If your ging is good it should only take three! When I hit my boy I wasn't trying to really get at him, so I just let slump over and down a bit. You see, if you soy quil the arm properly it will bring your opponents head down and forward(almost as if you pulled him into you), so all you really need to do is use rebound energy which will spring your bin choy into your opponents face. I train short power, so I don't have to **** back my arm to deliver a full power shot(even when striking twice with the same hand...the combo soy kuil, bin choy is done with the same hand) and because of this my punches are delivered a lot faster then they normally would.

And would that even apply?

-Soy Kuil, Bin Choy....Yes they apply!

the first point you mentioned may not correspond to the appropriate place in the destructive cycle to do what BL was talking about... If it's not, then you have to think of another set of points to hit which would correspond to the point you hit.

-This is why you have to learn your chart and a few other things. Once you learn how the energy flows in the body, things become a bit clearer and the possiblities become broader.

... Not all points have the same reaction on the same people, which is another factor - WAY too complicated, IMO.

- Same can be true about anything in fighting. Jus cus I Knock dukes today, doesn't mean that Im going to knock the next person out tomorrow. I follow what you are saying though. That's why its important to develope a strong structure, good ging, and proper timing (plain and simple learn to fight first) before you move on to more advanced concepts like pressure point striking.


Take care,
Buby

[FngSaiYuk]

For those of us who are curious and who do not have access to a nearby pressure point master, are there any resources on the internet which provide a solid presentation on applicable pressure point manipulation in combat and such training?

[SevenStar]

http://www.pressurepointfighting.com is run by a guy that used to post here.

erle montaigue has a ton of crap on his site.

[FngSaiYuk]

Thanks, more stuff to research... ::grin::

[Chang Style Novice]

http://www.dimmak.com/

The definitive dim mak reference site.

[Buby]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Buby,

See, THAT (some points being more sensitive than others) is a LOT more reasonable than delayed death, or multi point penetrating combos to bring about death ... well... that would be really difficult in a real fight, esp. ones where there's no rule other than defend yourself and get outta the situation asap.

-That what Pressure point striking is for...real fights!

Now I also understand that pressure points give you an advantage in fights, and that they can be used very effectively... it's just that it's really difficult to swallow the concept of the magical death touch or death touch combo.

- Do you remember when that Father got into a fight with another father at some child hockey game(I think it was a hockey game)? If so, one parent punched the other in the chest and the man died. What do you think caused his death? Mind you, there was no mention of any of the parents training in any form of MArts, so what could have caused this? If an average joe can pull it off, can you imagine what a skilled, powerful fighter can do. Scares me I tell ya!LOLOL

Again, the only thing I'm focusing on here is the mystic death touch/combo. I'm pretty sure most fighters and martial artists understand that part of the training to be 'good' involved knowledge of 'sensitive' points in the body and incoporating the targetting of these points in their style's techniques.

-There are a total of 108 useable pressure points for fighting. Of that 108, 72 of these point are used to render someone unconscious as well as cause paralysis(attacker/limb), and 36 of these points are said to cause death. How true are the 36 points...I don't know, I'm trying to stay out jail.LOLOL I can tell you that the theory is sound, but I'm in no position to say it would work 110%, cause I've never tried them before.

Take care,

Buby

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Buby
How true are the 36 points...I don't know, I'm trying to stay out jail.LOLOL I can tell you that the theory is sound, but I'm in no position to say it would work 110%, cause I've never tried them before.

That's the big issue w/the death touch attacks...

Like I mentioned earlier, I understand the importance of knowing which points to attack in sequence... what's really difficult to swallow is knowing that someone could legally train themselves to the point of accurately using this knowledge to full effect in a real fight against a (or several) really good fighters, all in less than a couple of decades and still maintain a decent and fulfilling lifestyle (like, how fulfilling is it to train so much so that you can become a perfect assassin in lieu of using most of that time in other pursuits).

[Buby]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
That's the big issue w/the death touch attacks...

Like I mentioned earlier, I understand the importance of knowing which points to attack in sequence... what's really difficult to swallow is knowing that someone could legally train themselves to the point of accurately using this knowledge to full effect in a real fight against a (or several) really good fighters, all in less than a couple of decades and still maintain a decent and fulfilling lifestyle (like, how fulfilling is it to train so much so that you can become a perfect assassin in lieu of using most of that time in other pursuits).

They can be trained, but one needs to be very careful. There is a move in our 3rd form that deals with a death point. My KF bro tapped another bro in the head lightly using that move and he nearly passed out. He became very disoriented. I don't know if it would work for me or on anyone else, but it did have an effect on my bro.

Take care,
Buby

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Are you referring to the pics you sent gene?

Firstly I sent Gene pics pre any discussion on modelling because he dug my vibe and he wanted a face to match the buddhism talks we were having pre bs hitting le fan forum wise and no...I still ( tempting as the mag discount is ) don't want the contract. That's why I came here ( buddhism mets gongfu ) and that's why I stay.
Gene and I were connected somewhat before you guys were ever part of that. We've traded spirit ya know.....

on emei, I never claim to be a master but I know the basic elements , animals and concepts, please re - investigate the grab.....

please see wood / earth / metal/ water/ air .......... applicable an "methaphoric " to strike execution.

For the "other " dimmak "masters " who didn't recognise it (

:rolleyes: ) I blued.... made a bad


let me now clarify...... ( as opposed to editing and pretending I'm some gad almighty non mistakable freak of humanity)


cv is your main middle line medirian. Your inside belly starts as cv 8

1 tsun down is cv 7, 1.5 down from that is cv6, .5 cun down ( c = ts in chinese lingo if you wondered) from that is cv5, cv 4 falls 1 tsun down again and from there cv3 is 1 down and 1 more cun down is cv 2.


altogether you have 6 total cun distance ( finger widths - ish)

parelell to those you you have your kd s ( kidney meridian points) as follows and .5 cun right lateral to cvs

kd 16 .> cv8
kd 15 cv 7
kd 14 > cv 5
kd 13 > cv 4
kd 12 > cv 3
kd 11 > cv 2 on the lower pubis line.


as you can see , there are many strikes accessible on a multi point per strike hit, but please don't try this at home!!!! They are VITAL points ( as in may kill your partner opponent pending how you strike).


I am no master and have no interst, but I do enjoy understanding how humanity interacts with its' world and hence such interests.


Someone just posted that I haven't addressed their queries. Please hit me one more time, and I'll be happy to adddress your questions.

Ps: some times not sequence but only one good point will do thwe the job !! Practice responsible defence " art " and enjoy your new knowledge.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: in case you didn't catch it, that couselling with 2 l's and yes, no doubt your dictionary'll spell it different. Crazy Americans ! That's almost sig worthy.

Eyebrows, I thought it was a master's in human movement? Also, where are you going to do medicine? UWA for example is very strict with entry requirements. Frequently the most intelligent students miss out because they do intensive psychological screening and weed out students who are in it for money for example. Also, I would be surprised if any Australian university would let someone undertake two PhD's at once so you'll have to finish your internet buddhism PhD first. And, you do realise medicine is like 7 years or more? How will you stick with it when your attention span is 7 minutes?

[blooming lotus]

hmmm,..good question. Not sure where I'll study but I do know it'll be somewhere they're speaking english!!! Maybe WA, maybe Vic or Qld. As it is, have enough credits to rpl on HM degree / phd and suppose it'll cut my time down in medicine by noteable diff. I don't give 2 sh*ts about the $$ s I earn really, while we're here, It's about doing it 'cause you can. In light of recent associations, makes me realise how important it has become to me to do something that matters. Whenever or however I get there is sweet thx. :cool:

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Not sure where I'll study ... Maybe WA, maybe Vic or Qld. As it is, have enough credits to rpl on HM degree / phd and suppose it'll cut my time down in medicine by noteable diff.Qld's too close to your daughter. I dunno what "rpls" are, but I doubt you'll get "credits" on a PhD. I don't know of any PhDs by coursework - it's all research. OTOH I do know of Masters by coursework so you may gain credit there although I doubt it due to the specialised nature of postgraduate education. Our uni has phased out Masters by coursework AFAIK - it's all research based now. At least in the scientific faculties. Medicine I doubt will give much credit. You'd never get more than a year anyway, so figure 6 years minimum.

[blooming lotus]

rpl is when they recognise prior learning. Don't talk to me about my family and I won't talk about yours. If a year is all I get, It's a yr shorter than I had prior, so I'm still good with it. The path is the path , you walk it and you get there when you do.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Don't talk to me about my family and I won't talk about yours.I talk the truth. You don't live with your daughter. OTOH, you make up stuff about me.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
In light of recent associations, makes me realise how important it has become to me to do something that matters.
Like actually being a mother to your child?

No, thought not. That's too much about her and not enough about you, right?

[blooming lotus]

You have no idea what you are talking about, so I'm happy to leave that conversation where it is.

Toby: I have never lied about anyone here and respect your efforts to've come as far as you have under those circumstances. You're thinking of the wrong gal.

[Buby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


please see wood / earth / metal/ water/ air .......... applicable an "methaphoric " to strike execution.



Which five element theory is this? I thought it was wood, earth, metal, water, and fire. Where does air come from?

Here is lil something extra for those interested. Below are the destruction cycle(which is part of the 5 element theory) and Yin/Yang Theory(Each organ is governed by an element and each element has a Yin/Yang side to it). One needs to understand these before going on to more advanced concepts of Pressure point striking.

5 Elements of Destruction (Cycle)

Fire melts metal
Metal chops wood
Wood penetrates earth
Earth obstructs water
Water quenches fire

6 Yin organs 6 Yang organs

Lungs (Metal) Lrg. Intestine
Spleen (Earth) Stomach
Heart (Fire) Sm. Intestine
Kidney (Water) Bladder
Pericardium (Fire) Triple warmer
Liver (Wood) Gall Bladder

Take care,
Buby

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Buby
Which five element theory is this? I thought it was wood, earth, metal, water, and fire.

It is. Once again bl has no idea what she's talking about.


Where does air come from?

bl's ass.

[Mr Punch]

LMFAO!

[SevenStar]

See man, now BL is gonna use that post as "research" and further proclaim her mastery of pressure points.


Since this has turned *somewhat* into a legit discussion though, here's a question:

I am in the ring, throw a hook at someone, he gets KTFO. now, by my western train of thought, the punch rattled his brain, which made him all dizzy and he fell unconscious. From an eastern perspective, is that the same, or does that process correspond to something on the destructive cycle?

[FngSaiYuk]

I'm thinking that if it was a light hook, w/o any real body behind it and he DIES, then it's on the destructive cycle... but if it was a good solid and clean swing with plenty of power behind it and he gets up after a while perhaps w/a concussion, it's prolly just his brain bouncing against his skull...

[SevenStar]

surely the destruction cycle doesn't always result in death...

[FngSaiYuk]

Well, no... ok, my reply was incomplete....

If it's anything in the middle, then it depends on your point of view when it comes to explaining it, and you'll have a LOT of blur between the lines... let's call it that gray area

::grin::

[Buby]

My understanding is that pressure point striking is difficult to do with gloves on(too much padding doesn't allow your strike to penetrate..we use the pheonix eye fist ). I would say it was due to his brain smacking against his skull, but it also depends on where you hit him.

Looking at it from an eastern perspective I would also say that it was due to his brain smacking against the skull. Now, lets say your opponent throws you a back round house (about waist high). Instead of blocking with your shin, you step in and jam his roundhouse with your knee into his thigh, he passes out...Now thats pressure point fighting!

Take care,
Buby

[Toby]

Originally posted by Buby
Now, lets say your opponent throws you a back round house (about waist high). Instead of blocking with your shin, you step in and jam his roundhouse with your knee into his thigh, he passes out...Now thats pressure point fighting!Have you seen this happen? Did the kneer (kneeer, knee-er?) intend to do this? If yes, wow.

[FngSaiYuk]

Yah, if you could do that CONSISTENTLY in the heat of combat or in the ring... now THAT would be some training.

Soooo... anyone here at that skill level or know for SURE anyone that is?

[blooming lotus]

Being that few of you know D*ck yourself about the current topic I'm just going to ignore your other posts except for 7 and his query. There are many ways to induce a KO. One is too much / deprivation of blood, same for oxgyen , puncture or organic penetration and electrical impact. A strike like you mentioned falls into one of the above. Take your pick. Where'd you land it and how hard??

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Being that few of you know D*ck yourself about the current topic I'm just going to ignore your other posts except for 7 and his query.

ok, and umm... I always figured that'd be the point of having discussions on an internet forum... For people who know crap about some subject to explain **** to people who know **** about the subject.

Anywayz, ignore other posts if ya want, but it really is kinda trollish to STATE that you're gonna ignore other posts goin' on....

[Toby]

Welcome to BL's world. Nothing makes sense here.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Being that few of you know D*ck yourself about the current topic I'm just going to ignore your other posts except for 7 and his query. There are many ways to induce a KO. One is too much / deprivation of blood, same for oxgyen , puncture or organic penetration and electrical impact. A strike like you mentioned falls into one of the above. Take your pick. Where'd you land it and how hard??
So are you suggesting that the five elements are earth, metal , wood, water and fire or air?

Cos it sure seems to me, once again, that it's you that knows d!ck.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Buby
Now, lets say your opponent throws you a back round house (about waist high). Instead of blocking with your shin, you step in and jam his roundhouse with your knee into his thigh, he passes out...Now thats pressure point fighting!

We actually train a tech like this. Either step in and knee or stay back and kick up inside the thigh. Excellent defence technique that can seriously kill the leg's strength, numb the muscle, damage tendon, etc. If it resulted in a knockout, that would be awesome, but to execute with that in mind would be foolish.

ANyone care to suggest which points are there that could cause a KO. (Someone with knowledge, that is).

[Toby]

Yeah, I was interested in the KO/dim mak aspect as well. I know it's a viable defense tech to attack the area but I "know dick" about the "KO pressure points" there.

[Serpent]

For example, I once winded someone so much (with a punch to the solar plexus) that they were knocked out. Pressure point or contraction of the diaphragm causing the lungs to contracted resulting in a severe "winding" which restricted oxygen to the brain enough to cause a KO?

Or are the above two options both the same thing?

Here's another example. I once smakced my elbow on the corner of a bedsire table really hard, right in the soft tissue. It really hurt and I briefly passed out. Pressure point? What caused the unconscious moment?

[Toby]

Mmm. Interesting. Of course, I'll go with the winding over the pressure point. I'll also go with the brain shutting down with shock as a protective measure in response to extreme pain. But the 2nd one I'd be verging on calling a "pressure point" attack with my Western scientific definition of it. Not like Jet Li in Kiss of the Dragon where he hits the multiple points very lightly to cause paralysis or death. Or CTHD where Chow Yun Fat causes paralysis with light attacks to multiple points. Or Jet Li in the OATIC series - IIRC he uses pressure point stuff frequently. Haven't seen those for a while, though so my memory is vague.

[blooming lotus]

FngSaiYuk : I think you intercepted a comment directed elsewhere. We are all usually happy to share the information with any one who has interest.


As for the back round to what I assume is kidney region, If you are toey on the strike or what results it'll produce, you wouldn't use it. For a fight - stopper, speaking stricktly points, on the upper / inner thigh to pubis connection, there are 3 points quite close together. If struck correctly, when your opponent is in the correct position and open ( where sparring/ or practicing with real life partners comes in handy ), you should detatch the limb from its' joint. These strikes create great local pain regardless and are still viable. Re-iterating though, if the strike is dubious , don't use it, particularly in tight situations.

cheers

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
For a fight - stopper, speaking stricktly points, on the upper / inner thigh to pubis connection, there are 3 points quite close together. If struck correctly, when your opponent is in the correct position and open ( where sparring/ or practicing with real life partners comes in handy ), you should detatch the limb from its' joint.
Are you suggesting that you can use dim mak to strike someone's leg off!?

[blooming lotus]

Clearly I am. At least in the sense that their bone will come out from the joint. As I said before, the same tech used on points on the tendon connecting your upper and lower leg, will do the same job. Don't muck about with that though, because are there are other more sensitive regions quite close. sounds fantastic no ?? Nothing unequivelant to dislocating a shoulder.

[Serpent]

Oh my god, you're a complete nutcase. Dislocating a shoulder or a hip with a strike is not dim mak. It would take a massive amount of force against the natural direction of the joint. Or it would take extreme trauma to the connective tissue.

There is no combination of pressure points that would ever cause a limb to spontaneously dislocate.

What about the situations I cited a few posts back? Got on theories on those?

[blooming lotus]

you're wrong Serpent. Even the most solid sructures have weak points and dim mak just exploits then in human bodies.

You'll have to re-pull those scenarios if you want me to comment because I don't have time to re-sift at the moment.

Do you have the links for Earl Montaigues site?? Up for a read?? I'll give you the charts ( crazy as that really makes me ) you can read through them and tell me what your questions are from there.

[Buby]

Originally posted by Serpent
For example, I once winded someone so much (with a punch to the solar plexus) that they were knocked out. Pressure point or contraction of the diaphragm causing the lungs to contracted resulting in a severe "winding" which restricted oxygen to the brain enough to cause a KO?

-Solar plexus is no joke! Pressure point or contraction of the diaphram? I think some things are easier to see the relation between eastern and western thought. According to western thought you have just cut your air supply to the brain. Eastern thought you have sealed the air which is eventually going to the brain(well maybe a bit more in depth but lets keep things simple). I honestly feel it's describing the same action using different terms. Its kind of like when I say chum ging most people think of some magical power, but all it means is sinking energy. When sifu first taught to sink my energy, I was like that it? ****, I'm expecting some chi beam to come out my hand to make my a brother sink when I hit him, but its nothing more than good body mechinics which make a person or limb feel heavy.


Or are the above two options both the same thing?

-Same, I'ld say! Just two different ways of describing what happened.

Here's another example. I once smakced my elbow on the corner of a bedsire table really hard, right in the soft tissue. It really hurt and I briefly passed out. Pressure point? What caused the unconscious moment?

-Overload! I compare the body to a circuit board. If you send a spike/overload through a circuit board you run a chance of blowing it. Same thing with the body! If you hit it hard enough (certain areas being more sensitive than other) it sends a shock/spike to brain, which makes the brain overload and shut down.

I personally don't think about striking PP when fighting. If I happen to hit a PP on an arm and it makes the arm go dead then great, but I don't I look to knock someone out using PP. Real fighting is alive and very spontaneous, shoot anything can happen. Plus the 36 death points are pretty much no brainers. You know not to get hit in the neck, solar plexus, temple and what not. I like to focus on iron palm/iron body(conditioning), get my body mechinics as near to perfect as possible, pad/heavy bag work, sensitivity drills, forms, and live sparring. Don't get me wrong, I like to learn and mess with PPs, but it's not main focus.

Take care,
Bubyaaaahhhh

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're wrong Serpent. Even the most solid sructures have weak points and dim mak just exploits then in human bodies.

You'll have to re-pull those scenarios if you want me to comment because I don't have time to re-sift at the moment.

Do you have the links for Earl Montaigues site?? Up for a read?? I'll give you the charts ( crazy as that really makes me ) you can read through them and tell me what your questions are from there.

I just read a book of his, and every time he refers to a dislocation, he's pulling and using peng. Not dim mak...

[blooming lotus]

You mean Earles' ???

What a co-incidence I have some charts handy. Let me share somethings....


When I refer to the back round-house to waist scenario, I believe your shooting for this :-

there are Gb points 25 - 28 on outter obliques , causing on impact ( if opponent has no iron skill ) everything from KO to spleen damage , local, gall bladder feeding nerve / heart supply etc connective tissue / tendon damage.

You may also be aiming to strike for these ( now refferring to Sp meridian - aka spleen connection ) points . In this case we site points 15 - 12 and have a range of damage from Ko to ***** / groin pee > leg paralysis > nerve shut down) and local pain and socket tendon damage etc.

On the points I spoke about previously, as in liv 10 - 13 , we have things like spleen conections/ water / heat proccessing / regulating conduits, to blood pressure regulators, central nervous system connections, and direct impact to tendon/ muscle / joint vulnerabilty spots. These can be manipulated for healing or damage in reverse. Our bodies have miniscule but important connection sites throughout our bodies. It is a viable art on its' own , but apply it to another or several systems, and look out, 'cause you're about to whoop some booty. ;) :P :)

Serpent : there are so many ways to Mak a person ( via air supply systemic flow interuption / electric flow interuption/ blood/ water - heat suplpy, nerve/ tendon/ joint interferance) that once you grasp it, rocket science it's not ;) again. the more I study, the more I see the physiological base logic ( after all , western gal in easten transit I am ) ... still learnt a body to be only made of such....then you discover tcm and realise " holy mother of mary" there's more. !!!

[Gangsterfist]

I really hate to come out and say this, but BL does have a point here.

There are several types of dim mak out there. Dim Mak is a broad term. There are several different main techniques of dim mak like:

Sealing the breath
Breaking the bone
Dislocating the bone
Sealing the blood.
Damming the blood.

I could go on, but I would rather not. Causing great damage to a person on one side of the body changes their body. Their body will instantly try to adapt and compensate for the injury which in return makes some changes in the body where a person, could hypothetically use to their advantage. However, that point is rather moot. If you really wanted to end someone after dislocating their hip and shoulder, just go over to them and snap their neck. I mean that is way more effecient.


As for pressure point knock outs. I have always been explained it this way. Its like rebooting a computer system. You strike someone on their reset button which sends a signal to the brain which reboots the whole system. Depending on your targets body, and conditioning different levels of strikes may need to be applied. So, realistically you will have to have a very broad level of training to be able to know what to apply and when to apply it. Each person and situation will never be the same.

Again, let me reitterate, dim mak like this is not effecient training. You try to land some crazy combo hitting 6 exact pressure points on my body to cause great amount of damage or perhaps death. Yeah right, not only would I be resisting, I would be attacking and when fighting gets too fast for blocks and techs, I just attack the center. Using centerline theory against your combos would make it very hard to land any kind of exact attack. Especially if someone just over aggressively chain punching you over and over at a rapid rate.

Not to mention there are ill effects that can be placed on you when training dim mak. Basically, the dim mak you speak of is ineffecient due to the amount of training and conditioning needed to optimal output of performance ratio in training martial arts. My sifu is a Qigong master and a healer. I don't really understand a lot of what he says but I can feel it when he shows us. He says all that stuff isn't needed to be a good martial artist, he says only hard work is needed.

[Buby]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I really hate to come out and say this, but BL does have a point here.

There are several types of dim mak out there. Dim Mak is a broad term. There are several different main techniques of dim mak like:

Sealing the breath
Breaking the bone
Dislocating the bone
Sealing the blood.
Damming the blood.

I could go on, but I would rather not. Causing great damage to a person on one side of the body changes their body. Their body will instantly try to adapt and compensate for the injury which in return makes some changes in the body where a person, could hypothetically use to their advantage. However, that point is rather moot. If you really wanted to end someone after dislocating their hip and shoulder, just go over to them and snap their neck. I mean that is way more effecient.


As for pressure point knock outs. I have always been explained it this way. Its like rebooting a computer system. You strike someone on their reset button which sends a signal to the brain which reboots the whole system. Depending on your targets body, and conditioning different levels of strikes may need to be applied. So, realistically you will have to have a very broad level of training to be able to know what to apply and when to apply it. Each person and situation will never be the same.

Again, let me reitterate, dim mak like this is not effecient training. You try to land some crazy combo hitting 6 exact pressure points on my body to cause great amount of damage or perhaps death. Yeah right, not only would I be resisting, I would be attacking and when fighting gets too fast for blocks and techs, I just attack the center. Using centerline theory against your combos would make it very hard to land any kind of exact attack. Especially if someone just over aggressively chain punching you over and over at a rapid rate.

Not to mention there are ill effects that can be placed on you when training dim mak. Basically, the dim mak you speak of is ineffecient due to the amount of training and conditioning needed to optimal output of performance ratio in training martial arts. My sifu is a Qigong master and a healer. I don't really understand a lot of what he says but I can feel it when he shows us. He says all that stuff isn't needed to be a good martial artist, he says only hard work is needed.

- Great stuff! This is how I was made to understand it.

Take care,
Buby

[blooming lotus]

Gangster fist : you'd hate to admit it ha??!! This where I get dirty. Who gives 2 cra*s wherethe info came from , when you get grown enough to recognise good information, regardless of source , report back.

Happy makking :mad: :cool:

[cerebus]

Yeah! Who cares where the info came from? Who cares if it's legit? Who cares if it works or not? It sounds cool and lets blooming eyebrows feel like she's DEADLY. So that's good enough for her. :p :p

[blooming lotus]

should've figure your arm - chair comments was all you'd offer :rolleyes: :cool:

[blooming lotus]

should've figured your arm - chair comments was all you'd offer :rolleyes: :cool:

[cerebus]

This from the girl who learned dim mak from a book (and just KNOWS she could kill us with it if she really wanted. Lucky for us she's a (so-called) Buddhist and reminds us of it often :rolleyes: ).

[blooming lotus]

You know I had teachers and you yourself would be lucky, pending your intention to what I did and didn't use. I'm not going to be baited over bs so go to a thread where you have a clue what we're talking about.

[cerebus]

Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, michelle, you've threatened to kill me with your dim (wit) mak before. You can see how scared I still am. :rolleyes: .

[blooming lotus]

you can convince yourself that's what I said, and it still won't be true!! I said , I could if I chose. big difference. are you at work?? Go home!!!

[cerebus]

From the little girl who keeps saying she's going to go eat now..... then continues to sit where she is and post while complaining that I'm making her starve. Poor, poor widdle thing! :rolleyes:

[Gangsterfist]

Try to call me out. Thats fine. The truth of it is that I only know the concepts behind dim mak, I don't know how to apply a lot of it. I don't train it. The person I learned from is quite qualified. If you wish to check it out on your just click the link on my sig. The things I do know are peticular to the style of gong fu I train. Also, things like "death touch" are not really suppose to be talked about outside the kwoon. I hold back a lot because I am not at liberty to really share what I know. This is because I was told to keep somethings to myself and not discuss them with people. There is a good point to doing this also. I wouldn't want some moron to read what I post and then go try it with out understanding it and really hurt themselves or someone else. I have sparred and chi sao'd people before who try to do things they are not quite capable of at that point and they cannot control their actions to the fullest. The results are that I have been eye jabbed a few times by people who have not learned control yet. It hurt and could have been a serious injury. It takes years of hard training to learn how to fully control yourself and control your opponet, some people do not have the patience and try high level moves and end up hurting someone. In reality though, they need to train more so they can gain that control and then use the high level tech with out putting your training partner at risk.

Which brings me to my next question. How would you even begin to train dim mak? Not to mention from what I have read you have not been training it that long. If I touched hands with you and you tried some high level nonsense you could not control I would quit right then and there. I would not put myself at risk for an injury due to someone's lack of experience. Also, how do you test your training? Obviously going out and killing people with dim mak to test it is probably frowned upon, illegal, and not very buddhist. So, how do you even know it will truly work against a skilled opponet?

Another thing is conditioning, is probably one of the best attributes you can have. Someone who is conditioned will be very hard to beat reguardless of style or dim mak or whatever.


I know people who you could strike in pressure points and it wouldn't really do anything to them. They train really hard and work really hard with their gong fu.

I guess it really boils down to your personal goals. I still say that the kind of training you are talking about will not be effective against a skilled fighter martial artist or street fighter.

[blooming lotus]

There are certain points that you can safely use for experimenting and trial. Also if you use the points in their healing aspect, you become familiar with their location and what sort of pressure and direction gives what effect. The only real way to train though, is to study charts and become familiar with meridians, points etc etc , then spar to become familiar with an opponents size, movement and to consider how you could apply those strikes, maybe pulling up or changing your strike before it lands. I also like to have co-makker to train with on occasion, so I can break down our movements and check our techniques. Often in my travels I meet folks using different styles to my bases and ( providing the spar is about tech / info trade off) this can be a huge benifit to play it off against movements and apps you may not be so intimate with. At times when no partner is available, the best method is to study your charts and shadow box your styles and forms integrating " potential" scenarios into your makplication.

[Serpent]

Makplication?

You just make up language as you go along, huh?

Answer this: Do you honestly believe that you could effectively use a six-strike dim mak combo against a trained opponent?

[Gangsterfist]

so you don't have a set teacher? You just travel around and trade concepts with other martial artists? I have always been told (and I agree with this) is that you should always stick to one thing. If you don't you lose sight of that system. Sure I cross train other martial arts and some MMA type stuff every now and then, but I dedicate myself to wing chun. I practice it the most and it is the core of my martial arts knowledge.

I can see where trading ideas with others is helpful, but surely you must spend several years with one sifu learning that system. Every teacher will have their touch on the martial art. If you just go around training randomly with random people how do you know its the real deal? Not to mention most teachers would not even come close to teaching an outsider who has not spent years with them dim mak type stuff.

If you wish to teach us, learn something, prove yourself, whatever we will need some evidence. Some articles, the people who teach you, etc. With out proof of this its all theory, its all an illusion. No one here is asking you to come to our door steps and prove us wrong to our face (well at least I am not), we are asking for some credentials of your training, who you train with, and what the material actually is.

Studying charts is a pretty broad idea. I have several books on anatomy that break down the whole human body and show what nerves connect and control what parts of the body. I even have a TC medicine one that has all the yin/yang and meridian stuff on it. Just because I have the chart does not mean I could start studying dim mak and expect to be good at it. You need live training, and fighting experience (at the very least some hard sparring).

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Serpent
Makplication?

You just make up language as you go along, huh?

Answer this: Do you honestly believe that you could effectively use a six-strike dim mak combo against a trained opponent?


Q1. yes... and that was cute!! Leave it alone!!


Q2. Yes again. truly and honestly, because I've seen myself do it throught China and in regard to several styles executed by skilled practioners with more experience than myself. I once met a taiwanese ex- forensic police man in Sydney, and we got talking and traded some tech talk. He seemed to think my chin na ( translation dimmak) was irreplacable and more valuable than I gave it credit for. When I contemplate myself nor do practicle skill exchange with others , I don't think it's my ability that is question, It's my willingness to use it.

[cerebus]

No, it's definitely your ability that's in question.....and your knowledge....and your truthfulness.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
so you don't have a set teacher? You just travel around and trade concepts with other martial artists? I have always been told (and I agree with this) is that you should always stick to one thing.


you agree with this GF?? If you don't know and understand how your opponent moves, thinks and flows, how do you overcome his challenge??? "knowing your enemy" is not a foreign concept and advocated by many. Getting a practical play at your game, just allows me to do that more effectively.


If you don't you lose sight of that system. Sure I cross train other martial arts and some MMA type stuff every now and then, but I dedicate myself to wing chun. I practice it the most and it is the core of my martial arts knowledge.



Likewise me and my mak. I'm much busier than I anticipated here and sometimes bwe and the mak is all I have. But that said, it hasn't failed me yet , so I'm going to have to lock it in as a technique that works until I'm proven otherwise.


I can see where trading ideas with others is helpful, but surely you must spend several years with one sifu learning that system. Every teacher will have their touch on the martial art. If you just go around training randomly with random people how do you know its the real deal? Not to mention most teachers would not even come close to teaching an outsider who has not spent years with them dim mak type stuff.


You would think so right??? Usually here , when I hook up with a skilled practioner, or a shufi , we inevitabley get talking ma / style and dm ( being own forte and highest focal point) and as soon as yu demonstrate knowledge and or skill , they are more than willing to pick up the ball where the last left off. I've never considered that before, but that's the way it usually plays.


If you wish to teach us, learn something, prove yourself, whatever we will need some evidence. Some articles, the people who teach you, etc. With out proof of this its all theory, its all an illusion. No one here is asking you to come to our door steps and prove us wrong to our face (well at least I am not), we are asking for some credentials of your training, who you train with, and what the material actually is.



GF:- you know I can't do that. I gave you the name of my first dim mak instructor and even my source name of my currents charts. You said yourself, that the art and its' secrets are sacred. I give what I morally can and won't be pressured to comprimise that regardless of how great I think you are otherwise.


Studying charts is a pretty broad idea. I have several books on anatomy that break down the whole human body and show what nerves connect and control what parts of the body. I even have a TC medicine one that has all the yin/yang and meridian stuff on it. Just because I have the chart does not mean I could start studying dim mak and expect to be good at it. You need live training, and fighting experience (at the very least some hard sparring).



Hmm. If you studied tcm and meridians then applied that to the mak and anatomy charts from the west ( as I do and have in one capacity or other for many yrs ( though makking only for 1 and a bit ), you would see the difference. I have bases in aikikdo and tkd, where sparring is part of any good sesh. I also spar with various practioners from various styles and swap their techs for mine, and I can't get more thorough than that. I'll pick up any seminar available an relevant, but If you have suggestions to up my integrity on my practice, I'm more than willing to consider them .

cheers

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... co-makker ... makplication. She's the long lost third member of Kris Kross! The mak daddy! Wiggida-wiggida-wak.

[cerebus]

ROFL!!! :p :p :p

[Gangsterfist]

My previous point was I have several years of okinawan karate under my belt, a year or so of TKD and judo, and several years of wing chun\taiji, and probably a total of a couple of years working out with other martial artists to see what else is out there and to see how to apply what I know in a real situation.

Who is your sifu now? Is his name forbidden? These charts you have, who publishes them? I gurantee a company out there publishes them.

If you continue this path you will end up a jack of all traits, but master of none. That was my previous point. Once you learn a complete system (like at least 5 years of training) you can pick up other stuff more easily and not confuse it with your prior training. Different styles and lineages do things different for a reason. It is important to know why your peticular lineage does something the way it does. Then you can fully understand it, thus making it easier to understand why everyone else does it different. IMHO, if you do become a jack of all traits you will always be stuck in the gray area not fully understanding anything.

Its all about your goals though I do suppose.

[cerebus]

The charts she has are from Earle Montaigue (whose student she is not). You may have noticed that her extremely short attention span makes it impossible for her to stay in any art long enough to gain any skill. But let's hear what she says *pulls up chair, grabs popcorn*

[Mr Punch]

It's funny how you can't provide evidence for anything, not one thing that you've espoused in the past... there are just no links cos it flaunts modern scientific myths, or you got the wrong notebook or whatever.

Then suddenly you're providing loads of links to the dim-mak you've learned on the internet and using it to argue with people who've been taught some by their real-life breathing teachers, based on suddenly becoming an expert because the one geezer you've trained with in god knows how long (a shotokan karate exponent) knows even less about it than you and asked you a couple of questions.

Keep going, with comedy like this you're providing me with enough material for a book.

And btw sure, in theory, maybe you can dislocate someone's hip with a kick to a pressure point. But you're talking about one of the biggest muscle structures in the human body holding in the biggest bone to a fairly tight socket... maybe you can get it on a tiny malnourished person living on a rice diet, but try it in my hometown and you'd be picking glass out of your face. The same goes for six-hit combos.

You still haven't answered my questions.

[Gangsterfist]

I am curious one of my brothers is a doctor (TCM) and he will explain pressure point stuff to me all the time whenever I ask him in class. He does accupressure, accupunture, herbal medicine, chiropractics (sp?), and food health (you know like balanced diet health stuff). My other friend's wife is studying with a local chinese doctor (who has i don't know, like 30yrs experience) to become a doctor. So I have her as a source too. I also work out with some of that doctors students (he also teaches jiujitsu, bagua, and hsing-i, he is a very talented man).

So, I have resources local here in town I can talk to and get answers from. My sifu is a Qigong master and a healer as well. He is another source of info.

My brother who is the doctor, tells me that a lot of that stuff you would have to have full control of your opponet to apply it. Which means your chin na better be good and better be able to apply it with one hand, so you can pull off your combo.

However, if you can already control someone that well then dim mak is not even needed.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]My previous point was I have several years of okinawan karate under my belt, a year or so of TKD and judo, and several years of wing chun\taiji, and probably a total of a couple of years working out with other martial artists to see what else is out there and to see how to apply what I know in a real situation.

] I feel like that sometimes myself, but then I remember how many styles ( over 400 ) are part of shaolin system. When you throw weapons in the mix and consider street and real life app - there's always another style / move to consider.

Who is your sifu now? Is his name forbidden? These charts you have, who publishes them? I gurantee a company out there publishes them.


you guarantee?? okay, but I'm not willing to be the one who lets it out of the bag. If they are genuine, they'll find it themselves ;) AS for current sifu, if you 've read other threads lately, you 'll see I'm sifuless. Obviously am constantly looking , but for now, been here nearly 3 weeks and I have only what I have. Though have colleaue who studied Muay thai and ran into a Russian karate practioner . Meiyo ( don't have )

If you continue this path you will end up a jack of all traits, but master of none. That was my previous point. Once you learn a complete system (like at least 5 years of training) you can pick up other stuff more easily and not confuse it with your prior training. Different styles and lineages do things different for a reason. It is important to know why your peticular lineage does something the way it does. Then you can fully understand it, thus making it easier to understand why everyone else does it different. IMHO, if you do become a jack of all traits you will always be stuck in the gray area not fully understanding anything.

Its all about your goals though I do suppose. [/B


on jack of all trades ( though traits is cute :) ) : - we talked about this in one of my lectures at the uni I'm teaching at, general knowledge vs speciality skill / field at expense of former. I 'm an aries and it's in my nature. I don't try to claim mastery, but providing I know little about this and that, I effectiovely cultivate rising mastery of humanity in general, and above all else, that's where my real interest lays.

Ps: I have a very good memory and need only to be told once, once I'm on your trail, I'll relate any future knowledge back. Do you see how that would work for me??

[Gangsterfist]

...or....

Learn how to control your opponet with your mind. Now that would be a cool trick!:D

[blooming lotus]

My g*d Cerebus,

You have been working too hard!! That had content!:eek: :D


dam* , shoulda quoted that while it was up!!


Do you know ninjutsu claim that GF? I think it's just a matter of focus and prediction but sounds better when you put it like that :P

[cerebus]

"I have a very good memory and need only to be told once"

Well, THAT'S obviously not true. People have been telling you from day one to shut up & get off the board, yet you stay and you consistently forget that no one here wants to hear anything from you.

[blooming lotus]

and when I say goodbye , they say " wait...don't go "


thought 2 valuable posts from you in a row was a big ask.

[Gangsterfist]

okay one more thing confuses me about all this. Being a technical person myself, I think logically about a lot of stuff.

If you are a chan buddhist and live in a world of philosophy (which is cool with me, I am down with buddhism) then how can you really try to involve science. One major loop hold I have found was from Darhma(sp?) - it says -


Everything you think you know and see is an illusion


If everything is an illusion, than how can factual science exist? Mixing philosophy and science do not really mix.

If you make claims about dim mak and cannot back it up then people will not believe you simple as that. If you do not wish to prove yourself then just stop posting stuff about it. A lot of martial artists have done this in the past. Collected info from lots of sifus, everytime someone questions them they say they can't openly talk about it because they were told in confidence and its a secret tech not taught publically. Then the next thing you know they are writing books on it. Or creating a new style that has only been secretly taught over the last 300 years and is now for the first time available to the public. Gee, haven't heard all that before:cool:

Some people want to live in a glass house and throw stones and at the same time don't want their house to break. You really can't do that.

[cerebus]

You're lying again bl, and it's a big 'un. No one's ever asked you to stay... ever. Nor will they.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
okay one more thing confuses me about all this. Being a technical person myself, I think logically about a lot of stuff.

If you are a chan buddhist and live in a world of philosophy (which is cool with me, I am down with buddhism) then how can you really try to involve science. One major loop hold I have found was from Darhma(sp?) - it says -


If everything is an illusion, than how can factual science exist? Mixing philosophy and science do not really mix.

maybe the illusion has a scientific explanation?? and I'm down with beliefs , but you gotta play logic and fact sometime........



If you make claims about dim mak and cannot back it up then people will not believe you simple as that. If you do not wish to prove yourself then just stop posting stuff about it. A lot of martial artists have done this in the past. Collected info from lots of sifus, everytime someone questions them they say they can't openly talk about it because they were told in confidence and its a secret tech not taught publically. Then the next thing you know they are writing books on it. Or creating a new style that has only been secretly taught over the last 300 years and is now for the first time available to the public. Gee, haven't heard all that before:cool:


onus of proof , is you to yourself. I just give you something to consider. and maybe you'll get the break down inmy own book, but wait-a - while because no immediate plans. and on that, being we all have various forms and styles , haven't we all created our own personal "style " anyway???


Some people want to live in a glass house and throw stones and at the same time don't want their house to break. You really can't do that.


I know, but mine's made from perspects and if it breaks, I'll find something stonger to build it next time :) :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

See thats my point. You are saying you are only giving me point a and point b, and I have to find the path to bridge the gap between them. Very cryptic, sound philosophical, but not scientific by any means.

Science and math can explain everything. It may not be in our capacity to do so at this current age. However, there have been studies, there are materials published on it. Show us the path, show us what to study and leave it up to us to take what we want from it.

IF that is what you are saying then do so. Otherwise I cannot make sense of that last post.

[blooming lotus]

I try!! :(


My info has been yrs in the making from a multitude of sources and no doubt over a weekend of "d and m" s we'd hash it out, but that's alot of energy and it's distracting. I'm sorry, but this is about me and my path, as your learning is about you and yours. Like the rest of us, you just have to pick up what tangent seems relevant or questionabley worthy of persuit and find out how it works and if there 's anything it. If I go too deep , I end up walking old ground with new shoes. Back tracking is a personal thing and I'm busy on another leg. I'll still give you something to consider though.

Ps: I love that comment!! :) :cool:

[Mr Punch]

crazy woman
You would think so right??? Usually here , when I hook up with a skilled practioner, or a shufi , we inevitabley get talking ma / style and dm ( being own forte and highest focal point) and as soon as yu demonstrate knowledge and or skill , they are more than willing to pick up the ball where the last left off. I've never considered that before, but that's the way it usually plays.
You know, I've been kicking around SE Asia for a bit, and I've been to some teachers (the few English-speaking ones I've found, or the Japanese speaking ones who don't mind teaching gaijin), who I've mailed in advance/spoken to on the phone/both, had a dialogue with, an invitation to come and see or sometimes to train, often in the same style as them... and then you get there and they say, "Ah, can you come back on Friday?", or "Come back tomorrow... blah blah blah" repeatedly, or "You can watch, but it'll be 150 dollars even if you just want basic correction in your stances... and crossing hands with my students... hmm that's another story...!"

Not saying it happens all the time, but the vast majority of the time. True, I'm not a woman, but most of the time you don't even get a chance to demonstrate knowledge or skill... unless they're after a free English lesson... or maybe your pants? And that leaves a very very small percentage giving good quality instruction, or who aren't just crackpots.



Then, OK, I know what happens... you go round a few kwoons, but it's hellatiring getting anywhere in a foreign country when you don't speak the language, so you go to the bar for a quick one, cos all that running around is giving you irritable bowel syndrome, so you need a glass of rice wine, just for the digestion you understand, and you get talking to this ol geezer in the pub, and he's really interesting (esp after the next glass or two) and he's telling you about real Chinese kungfu, cos you're the one person in the bar listening to him, and he says "I'll show you something amazing," and he presses two points on your palm that some teenage 'masseur' did to him once, and you feel all warm and fuzzy, and he says "That's the real dim-mak," and you listen to his ramblings till even you get bored and go home and cry in your pillow again. Then you wake up the next day, and after your head's cleared a little bit (but just a little cos you won't drink the local water, and you feel guilty when you have that little lie-in even on a Sunday cos you realize you've arranged to meet someone on your one day off, just someone to talk to so you're not alone all day again on your one day off, but it's a bit far and you're tired and hungover again and you've gotta do your washing and jeez there's just no rest, and you wanna pop down the net cafe to just look at the MA forums for just a little while to make you feel better about yourself) you think it'd be quite nice, you'd feel better, you know, in your bowel not your head, there's nothing wrong with your head, just tired, if you could just do a few minutes of forms or something. But you're a bit dizzy after all, so you look at those to fuzzy points on your charts and prance around the room a bit with your Fist of Fury face on and your dim-mak claws out (really should cut those long hostess fingernails) going through a new motion for a 6-hit combo ending in a hip dislocation on the big fat Samoan you're still carrying around in your traumatized teenager's head after all these years - still he's useful for technique visualization! Then you think, oh, maybe that ol geezer really knew what he was talking about after all, you'll just pop out to the forums and see what the boys think there before you go out on that date.

You see, I've been there. Admittedly a few years ago, only for a couple of weeks, not month in month out, and minus the fat Samoan, plus I must admit the hollow dates were actually quite fun... but I have been there. You seem to have cut down the drinking since you last ignored one of my long posts; congrats. Now if you could just get the **** off this board for a while and actually find a kwoon, a temple for sme of that meditation, somewhere, anywhere to actually get down and practise anything basic or whatever with somebody else for a while to get your head straighter before you go back to Oz... then you won't have to be living up to your own over-inflated unrealistic goals and feeling that because you're going home without the Shaolin temple certificate or secret scrolls or whatever that you're going home with your tail between your legs having somehow let down your family and failed to have proved yourself...

[cerebus]

Wow! That's the second time I've seen Mat give you some straight-up, no bs, good advice, blooming eyebrows. Unfortunately, Mat, she comes here 'cause she wants to GIVE advice, not receive it. She won't listen to you.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I try!! :(


My info has been yrs in the making from a multitude of sources and no doubt over a weekend of "d and m" s we'd hash it out, but that's alot of energy and it's distracting. I'm sorry, but this is about me and my path, as your learning is about you and yours. Like the rest of us, you just have to pick up what tangent seems relevant or questionabley worthy of persuit and find out how it works and if there 's anything it. If I go too deep , I end up walking old ground with new shoes. Back tracking is a personal thing and I'm busy on another leg. I'll still give you something to consider though.

Ps: I love that comment!! :) :cool:

Y'know, if this is the case, would it not be more reasonable and logical to NOT bother posting continually, esp. if you end up consistently at odds with others, considering you really don't have the time for it all?

Honestly, it really is distracting when these threads are read because there really is some good info in some of the posts, yet in the midst of it all there's all this bickering.

Unfortunately it's difficult to put someone on ignore when they're continually being quoted by others who otherwise have excellent posts to contribute.

Really, given what you've posted here, you may want to consider just ignoring the attacks so there's less traffic on the public forum, or perhaps take it to PM's or email...

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by cerebus
Wow! That's the second time I've seen Mat give you some straight-up, no bs, good advice, blooming eyebrows. Unfortunately, Mat, she comes here 'cause she wants to GIVE advice, not receive it. She won't listen to you. Fair enough... who the hell am I to advise?! :D

At least she has a reason for coming here... I've forgotten what the hell I like about this place.

[cerebus]

The ambience? :p :p :p

[Mr Punch]

Wait, I know it, that's French for "bad smell", right?!

[Toby]

Wow, Mat! That story was gold!

[cerebus]

You speak French too? :eek: Heh, heh, heh.:p

[Mr Punch]

Nah, not gold. Common as muck mate! Seen it happen to countless FOBs (Fresh Off the Boat), esp those who are running away for something or searching for something... they just lose it.

Fortunately, in my case, I made some good friends, and my background has meant that I'd never made any excuses for drinking too much, plus I wasn't actually running away or searching. Then I took the time to chill, find a dojo, learn the language, and get a bit involved in the culture.

And yeah I speak French... usually only to ze women!!! :D :cool: :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Mat
[B][/

Not saying it happens all the time, but the vast majority of the time. True, I'm not a woman, but most of the time you don't even get a chance to demonstrate knowledge or skill... unless they're after a free English lesson...

] I don't think you realise how highly they prize the role of "teacher" here!! We are virtual superstars here and respectworthy at min. Their pleasure above ours.


Then, OK, I know what happens... you go round a few kwoons, but it's hellatiring getting anywhere in a foreign country when you don't speak the language, so you go to the bar for a quick one, cos all that running around is giving you irritable bowel syndrome, so you need a glass of rice wine, just for the digestion you understand, and you get talking to this ol geezer in the pub, and he's really interesting (esp after the next glass or two) and he's telling you about real Chinese kungfu, cos you're the one person in the bar listening to him, and he says "I'll show you something amazing," and he presses two points on your palm that some teenage 'masseur' did to him once, and you feel all warm and fuzzy, and he says "That's the real dim-mak," and you listen to his ramblings till even you get bored and go home and cry in your pillow again. Then you wake up the next day, and after your head's cleared a little bit (but just a little cos you won't drink the local water, and you feel guilty when you have that little lie-in even on a Sunday cos you realize you've arranged to meet someone on your one day off, just someone to talk to so you're not alone all day again on your one day off, but it's a bit far and you're tired and hungover again and you've gotta do your washing and jeez there's just no rest, and you wanna pop down the net cafe to just look at the MA forums for just a little while to make you feel better about yourself) you think it'd be quite nice, you'd feel better, you know, in your bowel not your head, there's nothing wrong with your head, just tired, if you could just do a few minutes of forms or something. But you're a bit dizzy after all, so you look at those to fuzzy points on your charts and prance around the room a bit with your Fist of Fury face on and your dim-mak claws out (really should cut those long hostess fingernails) going through a new motion for a 6-hit combo ending in a hip dislocation on the big fat Samoan you're still carrying around in your traumatized teenager's head after all these years - still he's useful for technique visualization! Then you think, oh, maybe that ol geezer really knew what he was talking about after all, you'll just pop out to the forums and see what the boys think there before you go out on that date.

You see, I've been there. Admittedly a few years ago, only for a couple of weeks, not month in month out, and minus the fat Samoan, plus I must admit the hollow dates were actually quite fun... but I have been there. You seem to have cut down the drinking since you last ignored one of my long posts; congrats. Now if you could just get the **** off this board for a while and actually find a kwoon, a temple for sme of that meditation, somewhere, anywhere to actually get down and practise anything basic or whatever with somebody else for a while to get your head straighter before you go back to Oz... then you won't have to be living up to your own over-inflated unrealistic goals and feeling that because you're going home without the Shaolin temple certificate or secret scrolls or whatever that you're going home with your tail between your legs having somehow let down your family and failed to have proved yourself... [/B

I don't really do bars, but will if someone really needs to chat, I'd rather workout :o :D :cool: Don't really have time answer the rest, but I'll be back later.

see ya

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I don't think you realise how highly they prize the role of "teacher" here!! We are virtual superstars here and respectworthy at min. Their pleasure above ours. I don't think you realise, been there, done that. Dunno why not, it's obvious if you have read any of my posts.

I've been to China and although I didn't teach there, I am familiar with that aspect of the culture (it's also pretty similar to Japan): I'm also familiar (and experienced) with the fact that the Chinese kungfu masters are renowned for not giving it up that easily to foreigners, especially those with a tact level like yours. they're teachers too, with a lot more clout than you, however much you care to abuse your position.

What you also don't seem to realise is that I think you're talking **** for a change.

You see, I'm kind of like you only real!

I'm a qualified and experienced (with results in my students to prove it) English teacher with private students who have included the head of the copyright office, the deputy environment minister, the marketing manager of the Deutsche Bank Japan, the personnel director of Bank America; plus an environmental seminar for the United Nations, an environmental impact research project for (soon to be) the world's biggest bank and the UN and numerous speeches for myself and for others at numerous international conferences such as the ASEAN Environmental Development and Health Conference 2003 in Thailand; not to mention hundreds of kids and old housewives!!! Through my own hard work.

I'm self-taught and reaching fluency in the language and culture of the country in which I'm living.

I have searched out and respectfully checked out many many dojo and finally settled in good ones, and continued my training pretty much everyday, even with other people (!) and even teaching at times, whilst gaining another dan grade.

I've had private lessons, tea ceremonies, lectures, festivals, retreats and services in Buddhism, including being taught some aspects of mikkyou (ancient esoteric Japanese Buddhism) and its mudra and mantra, and the relationship between Buddhism and bujutsu and then budo... and I still don't claim to know what I'm talking about or profess to be some kind of expert.

I've never laid myself out so much on the internet (or indeed in 'real life'), on this board or any other, I don't intend to again, and I may even erase this!!! I've never really felt the need to prove myself you see. But you are a constant embarassment; living proof of the pewling weakness of human egotism that stops people reaching their potential, that keeps people fighting and ****ing each other over in the world.

This (your bull**** and the corresponding constant post-war which I succeeded for so long in ignoring), and this post have gone too far, and tho I'm not emotionally effected in the slightest (so don't make the mistake of thinking I'm bitter, angry or even give a ****) I don't need it.


I don't really do bars, but will if someone really needs to chat, I'd rather workout :o :D :cool: Don't really have time answer the rest, but I'll be back later.Whatever. Don't bother.


see ya No. Thankfully, you won't.

[SevenStar]

dayum. Good post.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
so you go to the bar for a quick one, cos all that running around is giving you irritable bowel syndrome, so you need a glass of rice wine, just for the digestion you understand, and you get talking to this ol geezer in the pub, and he's really interesting (esp after the next glass or two)

and then...

Then you wake up the next day, and after your head's cleared a little bit (but just a little cos you won't drink the local water, and you feel guilty when you have that little lie-in even on a Sunday cos you realize you've arranged to meet someone on your one day off, just someone to talk to so you're not alone all day again on your one day off, but it's a bit far and you're tired and hungover again


So, just enough rice wine to aid in digestion also results in you being hungover?


and you've gotta do your washing and jeez there's just no rest, and you wanna pop down the net cafe to just look at the MA forums for just a little

you pop down there quite a bit. Definitely long enough to do some searching...


while to make you feel better about yourself) you think it'd be quite nice, you'd feel better, you know, in your bowel not your head, there's nothing wrong with your head, just tired, if you could just do a few minutes of forms or something. But you're a bit dizzy after all, so you look at those to fuzzy points on your charts and prance around the room a bit with your Fist of Fury face on and your dim-mak claws out (really should cut those long hostess fingernails) going through a new motion for a 6-hit combo ending in a hip dislocation on the big fat Samoan you're still carrying around in your traumatized teenager's head after all these years - still he's useful for technique visualization!

Is that how you train?

[blooming lotus]

again proving your maturity far beyond my level of appreciation.


Anyway, heard from Russian friend re -: shotokan and hopefully there be some info / clarification forcomming, though I bother , gad knows :rolleyes:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

just browsing some links on the sthrn forum and came across
www.mousavi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/heart.html .

has an icon to a dimmak intro from a thread relating to southern eagle claw ( pg 1) .

If you can manage to put aside prejudices and consider the wc elder story and what BL has been telling on dimmak origins / ng mui and her southern shack up, post the spilt, it certainly makes sense and is just another person who's saying the same thing.

[Toby]

The link doesn't work Eyebrows.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
If you can manage to put aside prejudices and consider the wc elder story and what BL has been telling on dimmak origins / ng mui and her southern shack up, post the spilt, it certainly makes sense and is just another person who's saying the same thing. So this link was supposed to say that Ng Mui invented dim mak? What about the links I found that said that the guy who invented tai chi invented dim mak?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Toby,

Let me check with BL regarding the link between tai chi and DM. From my understanding internal arts have a grwat deal of health aspect and would be taught to channel maridian flows if the instructor has a knowledge of chinese medicine. So it probably depends on the instructor you'd learn from, some may give you an entire health package while others deal with more the fighting aspects.

But again, i have to get back to you on DM once I've consulted with BL. Good question though.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
From my understanding internal arts have a grwat deal of health aspect and would be taught to channel maridian flows if the instructor has a knowledge of chinese medicine. So it probably depends on the instructor you'd learn from, some may give you an entire health package while others deal with more the fighting aspects.No, this has nothing to do with anything. I didn't say "current links between dim make and tai chi". I said the founder of tai chi also supposedly invented dim mak. I found links months ago - I don't recall what her reply was.

[Mr Punch]

Anybody who believes Ng Mui invented dim mak should go and tell the Wing Chun board.

This will then spark an immense argument over whether she invented Wing Chun and whether she even existed.

This will culminate in major lineage war, with the knock-on effect of engaging various militia in the US, Bush getting re-elected, the astronomic rise of Islamic terrorism and the end of the world as we know it.

There is precious little evidence for a real person named Ng Mui, there is no evidence other than anecdotal as to whether she started or contributed to the start of WC and less than no evidence that she invented dim-mak, but since dim-mak probably goes back to the Chinese medicine classics, some hundreds of years before Ng Mui was kicking about, it seems like you've been smoking too much of what Yip Man was on.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

actually, if you care to search previous posts, BL has run this by some of the members on those boards more than once, and some agree , some don't , but are invariabley more open to it than other ppl with less information.

As for the taiji / dimmak link vs dimmak from WC, According to BL, I guess the 2 main schools of thought on dimmak origins, are that A) . it was created by ng mui and became incorperated into the WC system ( as you see demonstrated in everything from strike points and philosophies in any basic WC form, such as various chi saos etc for example ) ,

and B.) that it was a daoist creation, of which taiji is part.

If you couple that with the stories about ng muis travels during the temple hardships , and raids etc across both systems, it is feasible enough to consider that , as she was in hiding and practicing , it may've at this time came into daoist hands and as other things like the yijinjing , and various other books and systems , been claimed by daosim as their own.

Mat is right too. Alot of the evidrence of Ng Muis existence is largely circumstantial., but almost every aspect of ANY system at all, at some point in time , comes down to the same sceptism and lack of recorded data. That's where doing your own math, freewill and right to draw your own conclusions all play.

[cerebus]

blooming ego just can't take a hint. S/he is so desperate for attention that s/he continues to post here after being banned and has continues to post under different names at russbo.com even when she is obviously not wanted there. Sad, very, very sad.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
actually, if you care to search previous posts, BL has run this by some of the members on those boards more than once, and some agree , some don't , but are invariabley more open to it than other ppl with less information.7* has given her the benefit of the doubt. As recently as yesterday he was asking you/her for evidence to support the WC/dim mak link. There still hasn't been any presented.

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
As for the taiji / dimmak link vs dimmak from WC, According to BL, I guess the 2 main schools of thought on dimmak origins, are that A) . it was created by ng mui and became incorperated into the WC system ( as you see demonstrated in everything from strike points and philosophies in any basic WC form, such as various chi saos etc for example ) ,There aren't two main schools of thought. Because Eyebrows thinks something doesn't make it a "school of thought". She came across a mysterious article on kazaa, which she coincidentally hasn't been able to find again and no-one else can find. No other "evidence" anywhere despite her (apparently) and others searching for it. Does this make it a "school of thought"?

[BAI HE]

So the Yi Jin Jing came from Ng Mui?

HAHAHAHAHAHQAHASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAQA

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

No one said that at all!! try a re-read.



I think she's out hustling with embassies, but if and when she comes back to a point I can contact her at, we'll come back to it and the do the hash out.

on tentative arguements though, look at shaolin. There is very little official data in writing to back up alot of their history nr roots and because of the nature of past beauracratic progressions, there is little documentation to support much that ever happened there.

Leave it with me, or search on by yourselves and I'll hopefully see what she has to say.

[SevenStar]

mui is said to have been a dim mak master, but she is in no way credited with inventing it. I challenge anybody to post reputable links stating otherwise.

[SevenStar]

the IP of that last post came from china. Coincidentally, I just received some anime I bought of ebay from someone in the same city as you. perhaps he can help you on your quest to get home? Of he may be able to help you research your ng mui claim.

[Toby]

Originally posted by SevenStar
the IP of that last post came from china.Oh? She had me fooled that time then. I thought it was Kelvin. I guess I can't be right all the time ...


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
... she's out hustling ...You may want to choose your phrases a little more carefully ... ;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Sevenstar,

Any news would be helpful, best to PM me. I'll forward the info on to BL. I've never been to china so I won't know what the local conditions are like over there.

I use a number of discount ISPs at bargain low prices. That may explain why my IP jusps arpund because internet traffic is routed and rerouted to countries that have the lowet costs. For example if you call up the "help desk" for certain products these days, they can be located in India.

It just reflects the internationalization of our economies. Funny that, though I'm in a wheel chair, I can appear to be in many places at once. Kind of makes me happy to know what modern technology can do.

All thest best with your training Sevenstar and I'll continue to be good boy on Southern Kung fu forum. Have you read the thread on swords? look forward to your input.

EE

[SevenStar]

While that could be true, what are the chances that your machine will receive the same IP bl's last several posts came from? how coincidental would it be that I've spot checked several of your posts from as far back as 2001 and I haven't run across any coming from china until after she was banned?