Tension and working out

[Gangsterfist]

Okay I have heard this debated over and over and have had all kinds of different answers.

Does working out make your body tense?

Does the tension stay there as long as you are building muscle mass?

Do you lose flexibility when you gain muscle?

Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?

What types of work outs are best for martial arts in the sense of not making your body tense?


I ask these because I touched hands with a weight lifter body build guy not too long ago and he was extremely tense. He was in very good shape and was way stronger than me, and I admit I had some trouble dealing with his strength but when we chi sao'd I could feel his every move because his tension. He said he lifted weights a few times a week but recently had slowed it down to like 1-2 times per week.

Thoughts?

[Toby]

Pretty much no to all. But here's the thing - I find myself using my strength, and using it 100%. I mean, when I go to use force, I find it more difficult to tense 50% than I do to tense 100%. When I apply a technique, I have less sensitivity because I rely on strength too much. Just as well, because my skills suck :D. I'm learning to use skill and structure more, but it's kind of hard. My reflex is to tense for everything.

[Gangsterfist]

were you in az last weekend lol?

I chi sao'd this really strong guy and I admit it was hard to deal with him in chi sao when he came at me full force. I felt it everytime though since he was so tense. However, using strenght in chi sao defeats the purpose of the chi sao all together.

Right now i do 100 to 150 push ups, 300 crunches, some forearm/wrists, legs lifts, and stance training. I don't use weights. I dont want my whole body to be really tense.

I have met a lot of people who have worked out a lot and gotten real muscular and say they know how to relax and say they understand but they don't. They are completely tense all over and I can feel the tension in their back through their arm sometimes on the really tense guys.

I am just curious if this is related to certain work out regimes, since I have mostly come across this in body builders.

I admit my hypothesis could be wrong, since I am not a personal trainer or anything of the likes.

Can anyone accurately describe muscle tensions from certain work outs? And what is recomended for people who want to remain relaxed.

[Toby]

Not me. I'm in Oz. Yeah, I would fit the profile of the guy you're talking about. I have got a fair bit of strength over an untrained guy and I do tend to use it. However, whenever I go up against my seniors, my strength yields nothing. In fact I end up tiring myself out. I believe that it's due to their superior structure which I feel I'm on the verge of getting myself briefly at times. I've been told my strength isn't a bad thing and will continue to give me an advantage when I learn how and when to apply it. But it will make it difficult for me to learn certain sensitivity aspects.

Re the tension - it's not a permanent thing. I don't stay tense all day, although sometimes I'll be on an adrenal high for a short while after lifting (< hour). But whenever I apply myself in class I do tense. I've been lifting for so long I couldn't say if I would be better off (less tense) without lifting or not. Dunno. But I wouldn't attribute use of tension solely to lifting. I'd say I could get around it if I tried. Here's two ways - I find myself "listening" more with closed eyes if the drill allows it. I also will tend to be more relaxed after a significant warmup (esp with upper body work - pushups, chain punches, burpees, whatever, but lots).

[FngSaiYuk]

In my experience with heavy weight training, a good amount of stretching and relaxation and meditation prevent muscles and the body from getting 'tense'. If your training gets you tense, then relax... Stretch your muscles and focus on relaxing the muscles. Massage and loosen them up. Do this immediately so your muscles get used to their 100% use in heavy strength training and immediate relaxation.

Oh and also try speed drills... LOTS of speed drills. And on the opposite end, tai chi, chikung, meditation, etc. Whatever you can to relax.

[FooFighter]

Gangsterfist

I will do my best to answer your questions.

Does working out make your body tense?

Yes but there is good tonus and bad tonus.

Does the tension stay there as long as you are building muscle mass?

Yes, but there are two ways to residual tension: hyperthrophy and neuromuscular training. In Power to the People by Pavel Tstasouline, tension or tonus is the result on residual tension left over by neuromuscular training. Remember there is a difference between good tonus and bad tonus.

Do you lose flexibility when you gain muscle?

The myth of muscle building will decrease flexbility is incorrect. There are plenty of meat heads who are like rubberbands. So actually you lose flexbility if you do not expose your body to specific range of motion.

Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?

Tension and Relaxation are different but one in the same coin or like yin and yang. Both is neccessary for optimal performance. You can not be too relax, no strength. You can not be too tense, then you can not move. People often build tension through strength conditioning, but forget to develop the opposite, e.g. "softwork" and etc.. Undoing tension is a matter of mental and emotional skills and discipline. Most people are ignorant on such topics. I think there are manys exercises to undo negative residual muscular tension such as Vibrational drills, BodyFlow, and Warrior Wellness (www.clubbell.Tv) .

What types of work outs are best for martial arts in the sense of not making your body tense?

I would recommend BodyFlow and learning Peformance Breathing
or doing technical and tactical training in a controled very slow and non threaten manner. Most people do not pay attention to their breathing in combat or real life violent encounters. I would research breathing in relation to performance. By controling your breathing, you can control your tension and emotional tension as
well. Doing softwork which I described above will help refine your technical/tactical skills and also help your body flow better, and maintain optimal structure, timming, and postioning. When you are under stress and feel emotional threaten your body tenses up usually and your skills goes to crap. That is why I would NOT recommend any speed drills or any kind of power exercises for performance at this point. It is good to combine hardwork and softwork in your tecnhical/tactial training. What is hardwork in technical training is pretty relative in wing chun. Please checkout Duncan Leung's tape 2 and 3 to see what I mean.

I am a student of wing chun such as yourself. I have learned from Sifu Alan Lee and Sibak Duncan Leung that Chi Sao is a game that teaches simulutaneous attack and coverage, structure,
continue body flow, and feeling. It is not a sparring match and if you were trying to over power or equally match your partner's strength in chi sao then you are novice. I wish I could explain this better and I would highly recommend that you get Duncan Leung tape 1 and 2 which will enhance your chi sao knowledge and better explain what attemping now. I sux at explaining wing chun gung fu. I am no expert on this matter and people tend to not understand me. I am sorry for any misunderstandings.

It is okay to use power against power in chi sao as Sifu and Sibak has taught me but the lesson is to use proper coverage, leverage, timming, and position to cut into his defense. There is plenty of lessons and explaination in Duncan Leung's tape 1 and 2 on this matter. It better to practice and see gung fu then talking about it. You will need to use strength for a moment,but dont keep using your strength (remember relaxation/tension of the same coin) all the time then you will weaken and fail. When you chi sao with this man who was stronger than you, did you consider your timming, structure, and positioning?

Best of Luck. Your success is our success.

[Gangsterfist]

In terms of chi sao you can nuetralize the incoming force with forware pressure, you can also yield to it, retain it, and use it against your opponet. Its all situational. I am not an expert either I have many years ahead of me still in my training. This opponet just happend to be a lot stronger than me. I am about 5'10" 160lbs ish (havent weighed myself in a while but its usually 155 ~160) and I have a decent amount of muscle. I do work out by doing what I described above. This guy was around 6'4" ish and probably weighed over 200lbs and was pretty solid when it comes to muscle mass. He was a powerlifter and a lot stronger than me. I held my own against him, but I admitted sometimes it was just plain out hard to control him with his brute strength. He did use it to his advantage and would always try to put in a str VS str situation, so it was also his tactic. When I applied pressure to him he did back off a bit and got nervous (I am assuming because he had a hard time feeling what I was doing, due to his tension).

I want to gain strength, but I don't want to gain any tension. I already stretch and do some basic taiji and qigong meditiation plus the SLT every day.

I want to do a work out that build optimal muscle with the least amount of tension ratio. I hope that clears it up, thanks for the responses though its been very insightful.

[FooFighter]

GF:

It is pretty hard to assess your chi sao knowlege and skills over the computer. If we were in person and we play gung fu, then I would know your level and understanding likewise I would know my own level and ability. If you want to get better in Chi Sao than you will have specialized in chi sao training. Since chi Sao is actual softwork it will not help you very much in actual fighting in my opinion. So dont get complicated in doing extra work to improve your Chi Sao. More time could be use in other areas of your training. I would suggest again that you get Duncan Leung's tapes 1/2, view it, and try to apply it with a partner. It is good to have help and support from your Si Hings and Si Fu in handling someone who bigger and stronger than you in chi sao. I am sure they can be of some service.

One of the biggest lessons that Sifu Alan Lee has taught me is a wing chun student must assume that his opponent has the adavatange of size, strength, and speed when fighting. With this paradigm, it will teaches you to be humble even tho you may have the greater physical attritubes, it helps you train or come up with a smarter game plan or more clever tactic and or a greater efficent means to win in the end. If you based your gung fu on size, strength, and speed alone than your gung fu skills will only be shallow and without substance in your older years. Trust me that bigger dudes dont get the finer details of their arts like smaller dudes look at Helio Grace and Yip Man for example. Good Luck. Your success is our success.

[IronFist]

Part of the reason stuff like this comes up is because you have a trained, non-weight lifter chi sao'ing with an untrained weight lifter. The trained guy knows how to relax and the untrained guy doesn't, so the trained guy therefore assumes it's because he doesn't lift weights. An untrained guy who doesn't lift weights is probably tense as well, altho maybe not as tense as the weight lifter. But the thing is, lifting weights puts you more in tune with your muscles and you become aware of what's going on and when (this happens over time, not right away). So a weight lifter would be more apt to introduce tension into the exercise because it's what's normal for him. It's kind of like if you take a weightlifter who has no striking experience and without giving him any instruction tell him to hit a punching bag as hard as he can. He'll probably throw a slow punch with every single muscle in his body tensed up. It's not because weightlifting "makes you tense," but because that's how he's used to doing things.

People said I did the same thing when I started grappling. Regardless of what position I was in, I would be tense all over because that's what I was used to.

Structure is not undefeatable, and strength is not undefeatable. You need both.

[FngSaiYuk]

IronFist,

So are you saying that a trained weightlifter can be relaxed (non-'tense')? If so, I would agree... has less to do with the actual weightlifting training then the relaxation training - or martial arts training.

[FooFighter]

Iron:

You made a good point and agree with you. I believe strength and structure is both equally importantly in atheletic performance as well as martial arts. I assumed GF's was playing chi sao with another student of wing chun? There are wing chuners who are meat heads aka body builders and there are many wing chuners who are tensed by choice and like using tension when playing chi sao because that was the way they were taught.

I have touched hands with many different branches of wing chuners within the NYC area. I remembered they was a person who was than me larger and had greater tension when we played chi sao. I got him to change into larp sao position which I was felt more confident in and due to my superior structure and timming I larp the crap out of him (covered and attacked him) and
was able to turn his tension against him.

He was amazed at my larp Sao and asked me who taught me his larp sao. That same person joined my schoo. While I agree that strength is vital. In chi sao I will say those who have the greater/tighter structure is the better player.

[Gangsterfist]

I can relax and I do agree that strength is good to have.

My question was and still is....


What are some good work out methods that help develope muscle with the least amount of tension. Ripping your muscles apart so they can heal and grow back stronger sounds like it would cause tension IMO.

Lets leave chi sao out of it for a while lol I was using it as an example to what I thought may be a ill side effect from weightlifting

[FooFighter]

GF:

You need to develop good tension in order to perform better. I think you should look into Pavel Tstasouline's Power to the Power or Naked Warrior (www.dragondoor.com). Doing PTP or NW, will help develop maxium tension and strength without bulk and if you combine it with proper recovery training such as "BodyFlow" or "Warrior Wellness" (www.clubbell.tv) I think it would be favorable in your goals. Best of luck in your training. Your success is our success.

Bao

[Gangsterfist]

Cool im on my lunch break at work now so I don't have time to check it all out but I will once I get home after work.

I do not want to develope tension and lose my sensitivity and at the same time I want to develope strength. I will play with all these ideas and see what fits me best.

Thanks for the replies!

[FooFighter]

Gangsterfist

I can relate to your goals in wanting to improve your performance in wing chun gung fu. Therefore your goals is similar to my goals. My success is yours as well; likewise your success is our success. We must share our experiences and work together improving our skills and community. I hope I can be of service to you.

Presently if you have "flow" in your martial performace than you do not have to be concern in developing tension and losing any sensitivity. At this point if you have flow, you would ideally want to focus on wing chun specific strength conditioning and creating wing chun techniques that suits your body type.

However, if you do not have "flow" or lack sensitivity then maybe you have to take neccessary steps in order removing these hindrances from yourself before you consider a serious strength conditioning program. Coach Scott Sonnon (www.clubbell.tv) is an interesting talented educator and martial artist. He offers many heavy duty richly dense programs that specifically addressing optimal martial performance for warriors and I would highly encourage you to research his body of work.

Lastly, it is quite possible to develop functional strength without compromising flexibility, sensitivity, and flow. I wish you luck, brother. I hope you will research the information given to you. Remember, your success is our success. I am sure you are smart and talented enough to formulate your own solutions.

Your Brother in Wing Chun,
Bao

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
IronFist,

So are you saying that a trained weightlifter can be relaxed (non-'tense')?

Absolutely.

Here's the thing to remember: relaxation has it's place, but many martial artists (wing chunners especially) are anti-tension nazis. Now let's review a couple basic physciology principles:

1. You CANNOT move without some tension (unless you're falling with gravity). WC people like to say "don't use muscle. Move with your tendons instead," which brings me to my next point:

2. Tendons are not responsible for movement. Tendons help hold you together, but they don't move you. I don't care what anyone's sifu told them.

3. Too much tension may slow you down, but no tension means you'd be laying on the floor. Even standing up and not doing anything requires tension. See point 1.

That being said, I think many WC'ers would do well to take some of that time they spend doing sensitivity/relaxation training and go do something to get stronger instead. Sure, your chi-sao might suffer, but how much chi-sao are you doing in a fight, anyway?

Oops, I bet I just offended someone :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Lastly, it is quite possible to develop functional strength without compromising flexibility,

Yup. Weight training doesn't hinder flexibility. It may even help it, or at least make you less likely to get injured.

There are pro bodybuilders who can do full splits. Pro bodybuilders are pretty much the bulkiest people on the planet when it comes to muscle size, so if some of them can do the splits that should prove to you that it doesn't hurt flexibility.

[Toby]

Iron has used his superior training and sensitivity to defeat the correct's brute strength. Nice posts!

Gangsterfist, you seem to be under the misapprehension that if you lift, you'll get all this residual tension that sticks around. It doesn't happen like that at all. I tense maximally to lift. I tense in WC drills because I suck. But I don't tense the rest of the day. It's about learning to control your tension which is a whole separate issue from lifting. Lifting won't affect that at all i.e. it won't desensitise you if you already have good sensitivity. OTOH if you have no sensitivity lifting might preclude learning it. Anyway, Iron's pretty much said it all.

Good thread.

[FooFighter]

IronFist

Good post on relaxation/tension To Mr. Suk but did not I explained this before to Gangerfist? I too have wrote Chi Sao isnt neccesarry for fighting and I wasnt offended what you wrote about chi sao. Just my observation, I think majority of young male
students of martial arts are too tense when they are under stress and that is why there are many anti tension wing chun nazis. However, there are many wing chun sifu who agree with what you and I believe in. My sifu does not favor chi sao as the standard of wing chun ability, but think fighting application should be the standard of someone's wing chun ability.

Bao

[Gangsterfist]

So, I am a tension nazi huh? he he he


Okay, Reguardless of what everyone has to say, working out does cause tension. Depending on the work out regime it will very. This is because the muscle is getting over worked and it will be tense until it heals.

I for one, love being able to sense things when in contact with someone. I agree being good at chi sao and being good at fighting are 2 completely different things. OTOH, I think that the sensitivity that chi sao builds is a great attribute to have as a fighter.

When I first started wing chun my shoulders were so tense they would tire out after doing like 300 chain punches. I can do that now no problem. I have finally started to learn to relax and it took me a long time (and currently and still working out tensions in other areas) to get my body to relax where it is. I don't want to sacrifice any of my hard work I put into it.

At the same time, I want to be fit. Right now I will stick to my push ups, sit ups, crunches, forearms, pull ups, and other calestenics. Maybe, I may get back into weight training but I dunno. I lifted before, so I am not totally virgin to it.

This has been a good thread so far. One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is. They tell me, yeah I am relaxed but they are really infact very tense. This is something I cannot tell you how to do, its something that must be shown and felt. So, there will be a huge communication barrier on an internet message board.

However, keep the info coming though, so far its all been good.

[FooFighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
This has been a good thread so far. One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is. They tell me, yeah I am relaxed but they are really infact very tense. This is something I cannot tell you how to do, its something that must be shown and felt. So, there will be a huge communication barrier on an internet message board.


GF: I agree with you on this point and again I wrote it before: "Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?"

Tension and Relaxation are different but one in the same coin or like yin and yang. Both is neccessary for optimal performance. You can not be too relax, no strength. You can not be too tense, then you can not move. People often build tension through strength conditioning, but forget to develop the opposite, e.g. "softwork" and etc.. Undoing tension is a matter of mental and emotional skills and discipline. Most people are ignorant on such topics. I think there are manys exercises to undo negative residual muscular tension such as Vibrational drills, BodyFlow, and Warrior Wellness (www.clubbell.Tv) .

Tension is not the enemy. Relaxation is not the secret. Knowing how to use to both T and R properly is the Way.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
When I first started wing chun my shoulders were so tense they would tire out after doing like 300 chain punches. I can do that now no problem.

I'd be willing to bet that a bigger problem was lack of endurance in your shoulders, which you developed over time by doing chain punches. SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demand). When a marathoner goes on his first run ever in his life, he probably can't even run one mile. Is it because his legs have too much tension? Or is it because hasn't built the necessary endurance yet.


I have finally started to learn to relax and it took me a long time (and currently and still working out tensions in other areas) to get my body to relax where it is.

I'm sure relaxing is part of it, because I have experience with that in grappling as well. But as I said above, for something specific like doing chain punches, it's probably more to do with endurance and less to do with actually carrying tension in the muscles.


At the same time, I want to be fit. Right now I will stick to my push ups, sit ups, crunches, forearms, pull ups, and other calestenics.

You know your body doesn't know the difference between bodyweight exercises and weighted ones. Your muscles just know resistance or no resistance; contracting or relaxing. Bodyweight exercises just tend to be lower in regards to how hard your muscles have to contract (ie. doing a pushups vs. benching twice your bodyweight) and therefore people think there's some fundamental difference between the two. You could do 50 pushups, or you could do 50 reps of decline benchpress with 65% of your bw (or whatever the equivalent is) and, as far as your muscles are concerned, it would be pretty much the same thing.


One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is.

Do you find that weight lifters are less relaxed on average than untrained (in MA) non-weight lifters? I bet you notice it more with weight lifters because they have more strength to throw around than non-lifters, and they would be more inclined to use it.

[Daredevil]

Hey peeps.

Just tried explaining this (muscle buildup doesn't hinder flexibility) to a couple of resistant friends. Heh. Know any links to studies or resources on the web for actual researched information on this subject? I'd love to see some!

Would you still say, btw, that building muscle without stretching will hinder flexibility? Just interested in the views as presented here.

Thanks.

[bungle]

Hi
I've been bored lately and felt like replying to a number of topics but find what i'm writing so "out there" that i end up leaving it.

Anyway. I've decided to throw a spanner in the works. From a qi gong point of view weightlifting will HINDER you UNLESS you do it properly.

Now. In theory you can take ANY action and there will be no karmic repucutions if it was the "real" you doing the action rather than your ego.

Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult. The more difficult something is, BTW, the more the ego is involved. Now you're straining hard and feeling pain when you lift weights. Well, most people don't know what to do with this pain so they try to block it out and stuff it down. Push it back into their minds. Back down and empowered.

Every time you react to a desire you empower it. So this negative painful energy is being stuffed down into your subconcious and insidiously effecting your entire performance without you being aware of it.

The way to neutralize the effect of this is to somehow release this energy. Now i use the release technique but since you guys come from a chinese ma background i recommend qi gong.

So, IF you release the strain and the pain as it comes up or after with qi gong then any negative effects of lifting wieghts will be neutralized.

The best weightlifters and powerlifters learn to deal with this pain better than others. However, they are still limiting themselves to having to deal with pain.

It's all STRESS. Stress is EGO. EGO = failure OR unsatisfactory and difficult success. Basically.

As always. You gotta prove this to yourself. I always recommend www.releasetechnqiue.com . Learn it and release while you work out and see wot happens.

Told you it was far out stuff...

[FooFighter]

bungle

I dont know much Qi Gung but I do not think it is necessary to know Qi Gung to understand how to strength train proper or how to prevent it from HINDERing performance. Likewise I would
expect most soft artists to practice hard training to make themselves improve in their play. In general, I think internal martial artists have a prejudice against external and hard work. On the other hand, Iron meat heads or Shaolin based styles believe soft/internalists are a bloody joke.

Please pardon me and dont take this as offense or an attack. I didnt understand your thesis because you used some eastern term. Can you explain it again for me? Let me explain to you that I understand the mind/body connection and its bio-loop. To me in my value system "tension" is a good thing and my subconscious values "tension" as good and not a negative when I am performing an exercise such as a deadlift. Therefore just because I am thinking tension before I lift, I'm not empowering any negative energy. In fact, I am generating confidence and positive energy in my performance. For example, if I was doing something which is causing me problem or stress and I am not feeling confident which in turns I'm "thinking" negatively and using improperly tension than I can see how that mental mal intent could indirectly poison myself.

How I am learning to release this negative energy or tension from my performance in order to get of the way for FLOW is through something I am learning from Coach Sonnon's programs called "BodyFlow" and "Warrior Wellness" (www.clubbell.tv). He explains much of eastern softwork without the rationalistic mumbo jumbo eastern metaphysical double talk if you know what I mean. Good luck with your training. Your success is our success.

Bao

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult.)

a good start. If your art relies primly on sensitivity, whole body connectedness in usage its extremely hard to let go of the idea of lifting or moving objects with tension, strong intent and isolated body movement.

It is also very hard to incorporate and use idea of either leading the mind or breaking someones balance as a major strategy in the same arts.

Back to intention, few people realize that the thought of movement causes small movements even before one is aware of it. So if where talking about sensitivity to movement, the build up of tension prior to the lift, wt training would tend to deminse this. As in all things the only real way to know is to try it.


Soft work? Any good taiji program will teach the same ideas.

[Toby]

Originally posted by bungle
Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult. The more difficult something is, BTW, the more the ego is involved. Now you're straining hard and feeling pain when you lift weights. Well, most people don't know what to do with this pain so they try to block it out and stuff it down. Push it back into their minds. Back down and empowered.Dunno about ego being involved. Pain helps, not hinders. IMO powerlifting is a good way to gain a sort of internal strength. I'm talking about compound exercises that rely on the whole body working as a unit. Failure comes for me at the end of a weight cycle. I accept it, but don't repress it. It motivates me to try again another time, and helps me push my limits.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Its very problematic using words like internal strength to define something like internal strength, which many have differing opinions on.

The quality of fan song (loose body) is one that few people actually get to. I have met many taiji people including my self who still have parts in their bodies that will not release tension or change from empty to full. as one poster pointed out many seem to feel that they have achived this when in fact they have not.

I have also met people who can manifest this, its like touching nothing, they can remain in one spot not because they cannot be moved, but because there is nothing to apply ones force against. This is a very different idea then what most people think of as rooting.

The degree of benefit that lifting, bodywork or any training has on ones practice really depends on what the basic idea of the practice is. To the question of weather residue tension is left in the body form these practices I would say yes, even some people who practiced yoga that i have worked with where tight inside.

What are called soft or internal arts are quiet hard to do, physically quite hard, why? For most people there is just to much tension in the body. It takes awhile to really be able to fansong into the postures and maintain this state throughout any body movement. it is the work of many yrs of hard practice.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Its very problematic using words like internal strength to define something like internal strength

What would you call it then?

:D

[bamboo_ leaf]

It’s not what it is called but rather what does it mean, how is it manifested. When we talk of strength, using this term all strength could be defined as internal as it all comes from inside the body.

The use of the word external is used to define things that can be seen and readily understood, most can agree with. The use of internal as shown in this discussion can mean many different things to different people depending on level, understanding and exposer to those who can use it.


Until an agreement is reached by those talking about what it is and is not, it would be hard to really say what is and is not good for the development of it.

[bungle]

I've dug myself a little hole here. It's very difficult to explain unless you release. Not because it's complicated but because you need to be in a position to prove what's said. Otherwise it's hearsay and purely intellectual which does not help anyone.

Resistance is can be seen very clearly in Aikido. If a hand comes towards you and you push against it with your body you'll feel tension. A pushing...So when you decide to let go and simply move out of the way and allow the push to happen the tension goes.

So to put it as simply as possible. Your resisting what's happening when you do weights. Letting go of your resistance to the percieved force would make it easier and allow your body to work much more efficiently and recover rapidly.

Similar concept used when healing injuries.

From what i'm learning i'd say the internal martial artists have hit the nail on the head. But everyone likes a buff body huh?

Let's just say i completely disagree with the statement "no pain, no gain".

[Gangsterfist]

Well, I changed some things around in my training and come to a few conclusions.

You basically just have to find whats optimal for yourself. Balance is key. You do not want too much yin or too much yang. You want balance.

I am still going to exercise to build strength but I am not going to go overboard with it, and I probably wont do much weight lifting.

That is the balance I have found. Also, learning how to relax with your balance helps too. I am currently still working that out with myself.

[IronFist]

Internal training doesn't let you squat or deadlift 2 or 3x your body weight.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by IronFist
Internal training doesn't let you squat or deadlift 2 or 3x your body weight.

How about if you can already squat or deadlift 3x your body weight, woudl internal training allow you to squat or deadlift 3.5x your body weight?

In other words, does it help at all (power performance wise)?

[Toby]

Wow, Iron's been quiet lately. Got a new job Iron?

Anyway, FSY, I doubt you'd find a scientific study or even anecdotal evidence on that one. Thing is, most internal guys aren't so interested in powerlifting. So the following is just MHO: no, I don't think so. A lot of research and expenditure goes into the best methods for lifting worldwide. If internal training did help, someone would've cottoned on and all the top lifters would be using it. But then again, how do you define internal training. Heavy lifts are helped by mindset, breathing, structure, etc. What is internal training by your definition? Just some thoughts.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Toby
What is internal training by your definition?

That's one of the things I'm trying to discover. Most of my efforts w/internal training hasn't been under the direct tutelage of a 'qualified' master. I've followed a couple of courses, read and practiced from books & videos, but I haven't had any real qualified people to really check out how well I'd practiced 'internally'.

I figure I'll keep on keepin' on with what I know and with what more I can find until I'll be able to get in contact with someone really qualified who can then evaluate what I HAVE been doing and advise me.

Now as far as powerlifting, I'm into self improvement in general, and I've enjoyed powerlifting in the past - not as dedicated as a competition powerlifter, but trained with a lot of the basics. So I guess I'd consider myself someone who is somewhat a powerlifter (I have benched 3x my weight in the past ... when I weighed less ::grin::) who is into 'internal' (mostly taichi, chikung, very little pakua & hsingi).